Dodgers asking about Michael Young
This deserves its own fanpost.
From Dan Graziano of the Newark Star-Ledger:
The Dodgers continue to look everywhere for a shortstop, and tons of names have come up in connection with their search. They don't seem likely to land the Pirates' Jack Wilson, but they're scouring other organizations for options, having touched base with Toronto about John McDonald, the Yankees about Alberto Gonzales, the Twins about Adam Everett and even the Rangers about Michael Young, though it's unclear whether or why Young would be available.
Young is new to the discussion. The 31 year-old shortstop is hitting .298/.345/.421 in 469 plate appearances this year. His five-year, $80MM extension was signed in March of '07 but doesn't kick in until next year. Even if the Rangers would listen on Young, could the Dodgers take on such a contract?
Seems highly unlikely but the fact that there have been discussions about MY between JD and the Dodgers makes this conversation worth having...Yes you would be getting rid of that contract but at the same time you are losing a big-time clubhouse leader. I have no idea what kind of return we could get for Michael Young. I assume Kershaw and Billingsley are off-limits. I imagine Andruw Jones would be coming back to Texas in the deal as the Dodgers wouldn't want to pick up MY's contract without letting go of AJ's. I also would imagine that Andy LaRoche would be involved in a deal and he would become our potential 3B of the future with Elvis at SS. The Dodgers don't have that great of a farm system, especially when it comes to pitching. James McDonald is highly touted (Sickels gave him a B+ going into this year) and he has continued to do well this year in his second season at AA (age 23, 3.04 ERA, 109 K in 112 IP) however he is prone to the home run ball so he doesn't seem to be an ideal fit for the Rangers. Also, Scott Elbert is ranked as the Dodgers' 4th best prospect by BP. He's been injured a lot though so durability might be a concern.
Do you consider Young for Jones, LaRoche, and McDonald/Elbert?
Thoughts? Other potential packages?
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Comments
do it
just do it …anyway possible. The return is irrelevant.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Jul 29, 2008 10:39 AM CDT 0 recs
I feel bad
but i completely agree with this. That contract is just disgusting.
W: "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
by hubcityraider on
Jul 29, 2008 12:09 PM CDT
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I'd be surprised
if any deal could actually be worked out.
"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain
by DJCahill on Jul 29, 2008 10:42 AM CDT 0 recs
$2 million
Especially since they made the Indians pay $2 million of Blake’s salary. If they are reluctant to pick up a measly $2 million, why would they consider Young and his overpriced extension?
by Excel Hearts Choi on
Jul 29, 2008 10:45 AM CDT
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Yeah
It’s just too tricky of a situation. The issue, to me, comes on who you would take back. The Rangers won’t trade Young for salary relief, even though they probably know that they should try to, and the other team would be crazy to take on that contract AND give up anything valuable. It just doesn’t make sense, even if there is some suicidal team out there willing to pay him that awful contract.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by zywica on
Jul 29, 2008 10:45 AM CDT
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agree
but it has to scratch your curiosity a bit that the Dodgers would even call about Young, considering they are fully aware of everything you just said.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on
Jul 29, 2008 10:50 AM CDT
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Honestly
not really. It scratches my curiosity about as much as suggestions that they could get Kershaw for Teixeira last summer or Liriano for Soriano in 2004. They’re far fetched pipe dreams.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by zywica on
Jul 29, 2008 10:58 AM CDT
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Rumor has it
That the Dodgers GM isn’t allowed to add payroll without ownerships approval. Which they wouldn’t approve Casey Blakes two million so I don’t imagine them approving $80+M for Michael Young.
This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC
by nikpin on
Jul 29, 2008 11:43 AM CDT
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+1
What would it take?
"Water covers 2/3 of the world, T-New's got the rest"
by TheJman on Jul 29, 2008 10:43 AM CDT 0 recs
Weren't they interested in Blalock too?
They are interested in Manny but said BOS would have to take A. Jones back.
Do you think they would want us to take Jones along with others for Young?
I also remember reading that the owner only wanted to bring players in if the outgoing players had similar salary. So he doesn’t really want to add salary.
by Coolbean04 on Jul 29, 2008 10:45 AM CDT 0 recs
They would probably...
try to make us take A.Jones as well…no thanks.
This won’t happen. Maybe if we were in the Mariners position.
by clinton33 on
Jul 29, 2008 10:47 AM CDT
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Jones = $16 million through next year, I think, fwiw
He got 24 million in base over two years, in addition to a big signing bonus.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by zywica on
Jul 29, 2008 10:48 AM CDT
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What about for Kershaw?
Do you do it then? Legitimate ace for MY?
by CS3 on Jul 29, 2008 10:46 AM CDT 0 recs
I would take back
Jones contract to get Kershaw. It’s only a two-year deal
by CS3 on
Jul 29, 2008 10:47 AM CDT
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Dude, come on.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by zywica on
Jul 29, 2008 10:48 AM CDT
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hahaha
I love how people are assuming that Kershaw would be offered back in a package where there is a brutal contract coming…. Kershaw is their Feliz, but better, and LA doesn’t have the depth the Rangers have… only possible deal that could see Texas getting Kershaw would have to involve some dude who has a 103 RBIs
Kershaw is as untouchable as Joba, Lincecum, Bucholtz, etc
by Baseball North on
Jul 29, 2008 12:24 PM CDT
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maybe if we added Neftali Feliz to the deal….but that’s probably not enough.
by aggiecurt05 on Jul 29, 2008 10:49 AM CDT 0 recs
hahaha.
W: "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
by hubcityraider on
Jul 29, 2008 12:11 PM CDT
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Huh
http://www.lonestarball.com/2008/7/7/566134/dodgers-looking-for-a-shor
Not so rediculous, was it?
by lonestarJon on Jul 29, 2008 10:50 AM CDT 0 recs
I think
There’s a difference between kicking the tires and a deal going through. Like they were saying above, I’m sure they are offering Andruw and some scrubs, hoping the Rangers will take some salary relief.
Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.
by TheBZA on
Jul 29, 2008 10:52 AM CDT
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Yeah, I know
I’m just making a little poke at Ben and all the other people who called my idea completely preposterous when I first came up with it.
by lonestarJon on
Jul 29, 2008 10:53 AM CDT
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Maybe not
but it is ridiculous.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by zywica on
Jul 29, 2008 10:55 AM CDT
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+Juan
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
"If you ain't got no money, ain't nobody calls you honey," Bo Diddley
by Rodney on
Jul 29, 2008 10:57 AM CDT
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+1
Ian Kinsler has finally earned the right to be the third of my co-favorite players.
by utlonghorn24 on
Jul 29, 2008 1:42 PM CDT
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Wow
this needs to get done. Don’t care if we get a bag of peanuts back…this NEEDS to be done. Give him 3MM or something each year as well…something.
Josh Hamilton is better than you.
by Longhorn on Jul 29, 2008 10:54 AM CDT 0 recs
I'm sorry bu don't trade Young
He’s not worth 16M a year but he’s still effective. He’s still a .300 hitter with 200 hits each season. He’s also the team veteran, you don’t trade him. Elvis is like 2 years away so Young is not moving positions any time soon and we don’t have any other options at SS.
by Coolbean04 on Jul 29, 2008 10:58 AM CDT 0 recs
nobody listen to this guy
nothing to see here…move along
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on
Jul 29, 2008 11:00 AM CDT
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Yea because you actually
think you’re going to get a good offer for Young?
by Coolbean04 on
Jul 29, 2008 11:10 AM CDT
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no, because
ANY offer is a good offer for Young.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on
Jul 29, 2008 11:15 AM CDT
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That.
Is a load of crap.
Ian Kinsler has finally earned the right to be the third of my co-favorite players.
by utlonghorn24 on
Jul 29, 2008 1:42 PM CDT
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hahaha
that’s the funniest thing I’ve ever seen on this blog.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on
Jul 29, 2008 11:17 AM CDT
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Trades of Consequence
Rosenthal talked about the Dodgers not being able to pull off a big trade on 10 July. In fact, Rosenthal states that Frank McCourt personally killed deals that would have brought Sabathia, Blake, and Jamey Carroll without giving up any major prospects. McCourt, of course, denies this. Rosenthal goes on to say this:
Under Ned Colletti, who became general manager in November 2005, the Dodgers have spent heavily — and often poorly — on free agents. But quick, try to name Colletti’s biggest trade.Maybe it was Milton Bradley for Andre Ethier. Maybe it was Cesar Izturis for Greg Maddux. But none of Colletti’s deals have been franchise-rattlers, or even close.
Some in the industry cite McCourt’s interference. Others believe that assistant general manager Logan White exerts an inordinate amount of influence, discouraging trades of players that he once selected as the team’s scouting director.
The portrait that emerges from virtually every rival club is of a dysfunctional front-office dynamic that hinders the Dodgers’ decision-making process and makes them a near-impossible trading partner.
More recently (24 July), Jon Heyman says:
Word is the Dodgers, who could still steal the sad-sack NL West (at 49-52, they trail first-place Arizona by one game), are handicapped by some infighting within the front office. Logan White, who drafted much of the young Dodgers talent, is said by some to have unusual say-so for a recently-promoted assistant GM. Meanwhile, McCourt is telling confidants that he is displeased by the team’s attendance and revenues, calling into question whether he’d even OK player expenditures.
I’d be really surprised if McCourt/White allow this deal to happen.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Jul 29, 2008 11:01 AM CDT 0 recs
JD: “But think how well Joaquin would hit in that park, Ned!”
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Jul 29, 2008 11:04 AM CDT 0 recs
there is no way Mike Young is traded.
the contract HASN’T EVEN STARTED yet, and it’s already waaaaaaay too much. nobody in baseball will take that unless we offer to pay half the salary. he is the FOTF, and even though he’s highly regarded league-wide as a very underrated player, I think we take for granted what he actually does for us here. 200 hits. .300 average. clubhouse leadership. clutch hitting (it is something to be taken into account…sorry). I wonder, if we removed Mike Young from this lineup, if it would be just as much of a blow to the team’s offensive production as it would be to remove Milton Bradley. I know for sure it would allow teams to attack Kinsler and Hamilton in much more preferred styles. and with all of that said, nobody here agrees that he’s worth the contract, and everybody here thinks he should be moved from SS as soon as possible. if WE think that, imagine what other clubs think?
with all of that said, in a pipe dream, we’d have to aim for Kershaw, Billingsley, or Broxton to make it worth it. and we’d probably push for LaRoche as well. they’d force us to eat next year’s Andruw Jones contract, which I would happily do if I landed Kershaw or Billingsley, and I’d have to think they’d ask for Hurley and one of our higher lower-level starters (Feliz would probably be their first shot). And I’m still not even sure they’d even THINK about ever trading Kershaw.
there can’t be any truth to this…
"No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of."
by Walter Sobchak on Jul 29, 2008 11:10 AM CDT 0 recs
I think there is a little bit of truth to it...
but only of the we will take your bad contract to fill a need if you will take our bad contract (Jones) who will go off of the books in two years. I seriously doubt that the Dodgers are including any prospects of consequence.
Godwin's Law Version 2.0 (Rangers Edition)
"As a Ranger discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Danks, Volquez, or Young approaches one."
by LBBRangerFan on
Jul 29, 2008 11:14 AM CDT
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i would do a MY for Andruw deal
in a heartbeat
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Jul 29, 2008 11:16 AM CDT 0 recs
Yeah, that is what I want
a 16 million dollar center fielder hitting .169/.269/.254, straight up for MY.
Godwin's Law Version 2.0 (Rangers Edition)
"As a Ranger discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Danks, Volquez, or Young approaches one."
by LBBRangerFan on
Jul 29, 2008 11:32 AM CDT
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Yeah whose deal expires next year.
The Eagle has landed....
by Lonerangers on
Jul 29, 2008 11:46 AM CDT
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bingo
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on
Jul 29, 2008 11:50 AM CDT
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Okay...
You’re an idiot.
Ian Kinsler has finally earned the right to be the third of my co-favorite players.
by utlonghorn24 on
Jul 29, 2008 1:44 PM CDT
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Young for LaRouche and Jones
That isn’t horrible. Maybe we each throw in a prospect. We give up a guy like JMJ who’s fallen out of favor here and they do the same with someone who maybe needs a new place to pick up their career. Get it done JD.
by Hull Fan on Jul 29, 2008 11:20 AM CDT 0 recs
wasnt real popular in the prospect polls.
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Jul 29, 2008 12:53 PM CDT
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he's kinda shown flashes with his bat this year
but by any definition was a horrible pick for a 1st rounder. The guy right now is struggling to make a case for 4th outfielder/backup 1B. keeping him wouldn’t bother me but trading him as part of a deal to improve the team would also be a good thing. I’m just not impressed with JMJ and he’s a guy the Rangers could move if it would help make this deal.
by Hull Fan on
Jul 29, 2008 1:02 PM CDT
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Laughable
Between bouts of vomiting.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Jul 29, 2008 11:23 AM CDT 0 recs
What's laughable?
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on
Jul 29, 2008 11:25 AM CDT
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Multiples
Dodgers: won’t move anybody brought up by their tinplated AGM
Young: no-trade protection 2007-09, limited no-trade protection from 2010 to May, 2011 (submits list of 8 clubs to which he’d accept trade)
Rangers: No reason to accept any deal involving Andruw Jones, which may be LAD’s real initiative.
Probably a good feint to get another club to let go of a shortstop they want, in deference to the LAD actually getting Michael Young.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on
Jul 29, 2008 12:05 PM CDT
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yeah i hear ya
but I bet your curious as to how the convo went.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on
Jul 29, 2008 12:20 PM CDT
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Hey I'm not averse
To any deal that makes the Rangers better. I’m not privvy to salary considerations back and forth, so whatever that might be, it is. Here’s the MY thing. Unless Michael has a life ambition to be a Dodger, he’d invoke the limited no trade. Why? First, he won’t be an AllStar SS, 2B, or 3B in the NL (any maybe other acclaim incentives go away as well). Secondly, he has a dream contract and will get paid no matter who is footing the bill, so it isn’t a “promotion” from either monetary or status point of view. Finally, my guess (and that’s all it is) is that the LAD will continue to look for fixes, then try to shed big contracts of declining players however possible – the Collitti/McCourt paradigm. Mike would be moving from franchise fixture to chattel, and quite probably knows that.
I don’t know, maybe his shedding Palm Springs digs and moving to DFW didn’t reflect his and Cristina’s true wishes, or maybe it did. Either way, given the CBA on top of the above, it puts the player in the drivers’ seat in a couple of ways. Yes, of course the content of the conversation would be interesting.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on
Jul 29, 2008 12:29 PM CDT
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Does he have
a no-trade clause in this contract? I thought that kicked in next year
The Eagle has landed....
by Lonerangers on
Jul 29, 2008 12:31 PM CDT
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Yes
http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/2005/01/texas-rangers.html
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on
Jul 29, 2008 12:36 PM CDT
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Andruw Jones
keep him as FAR away from the Rangers as possible.
by JBImaknee on Jul 29, 2008 11:25 AM CDT 0 recs
Taking on his contract is the only way
the rangers will get anything of value in return. Unless they pay a good chunk of Young’s contract over the next 5 years
The Eagle has landed....
by Lonerangers on
Jul 29, 2008 11:45 AM CDT
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money
The Dodgers have at least $40M coming off their books after 2008. I am not sure money is that much of an issue going forward. I would only trade MY for a #1-#2 SP. That probably means Kershaw.
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on Jul 29, 2008 11:30 AM CDT 0 recs
well, then you wouldnt trade MY.
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Jul 29, 2008 11:31 AM CDT
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Then we don't need to unless that's what we're getting.
Ian Kinsler has finally earned the right to be the third of my co-favorite players.
by utlonghorn24 on
Jul 29, 2008 1:45 PM CDT
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They'll probably need a 2B
soon anyways, with Hu looking like a utility man and Kent all but done
by FirebatM3 on
Jul 29, 2008 11:32 AM CDT
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Yes
Furcal, Kent and Garciaparra are all gone after this year (good riddance).
- Blake Dewitt isn’t tearing up the majors and hasn’t really torn up the minors for that matter
- Maybe Delwyn Young could play 2B
- LaRoche can’t seem to figure it out (AAAA?) and will be 25 next year
- As mentioned above, Hu looks like a UTL
- Angel Berrora is Angel Berrora
- Maza looks like org depth
So they are looking at replacing their entire infield (minus Loney) next year and it doesn’t appear - at least per BP’s Feb review - that they have much in the minors close to the big leagues.
Probaby won’t happen, but the Dodgers are probably the only team in the league that would even consider a deal for Young based on what they want to accomplish today and what the future holds.
And McCourt likes players with a good face.
by robert_d_wilfong on
Jul 29, 2008 5:18 PM CDT
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Since all this is basically what ifs...
If taking back Andruw’s contract for next year meant better prospects in return, you take it back without hesitation, don’t you?
Taking back Andruw’s contract means saving them $16 million next year, so there’s no way I’d take that back and then eat some of Mike’s… But I’d gladly do one or the other to get rid of that albatross contract for what looks like, long term anyways, an average/below-average third baseman…
by N41D on Jul 29, 2008 11:35 AM CDT 0 recs
yes.
but a future ace or # 2 better be handcuffed to that contract.
"No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of."
by Walter Sobchak on
Jul 29, 2008 12:03 PM CDT
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It isn't crazy for Young to land a great deal
Lets set aside our perspectives on Young, his contract, and his perceived drawbacks. Lets look at it from a different perspective – that of a buyer:
Michael Young is a perennial all-star.
He has been the most productive SS in the AL this year (yes, weak field, but ignore for now)
We see a guy with little range. Other teams see a guy with a cannon arm and a rep for being solid. Have you listened to other team’s announcers?
He hits .300 every year and will have 200 hits if not for injury
*Clubhouse leader & fan favorite
Now, a sabermetric look at MY reveals that his bat is valuable at SS, but not so much to offset his subpar range. His contract is very high, priced for his prime year production which is likely behind him. No one here would trade for him.
But that doesn’t preclude a team looking to make a splash by acquiring a “big name” from making a move that would make all of us scratch our heads. Michael Young is a “star” in every sense of the word, and most everyone in baseball – especially those outside Texas – would say he is one of the best SS in the game. The Rangers aren’t going to trade him for a contract dump, as it would be a horrible PR move, so if the Dodgers are kicking the tires, they have to be at least thinking about one of their studs – otherwise why even ask?
by JBImaknee on Jul 29, 2008 11:36 AM CDT 0 recs
The Dodgers Don't Have Anyone
that i would trade MY for, Michael is the leaser of this team I would prefer to see him stick around, maybe in a year or so he makes the 3rd base move, time will tell i guess.
by TRFAN on Jul 29, 2008 11:41 AM CDT 0 recs
that's what we need
a corner IF with declining skills and zero power who makes $16M a year.
Sign me up!
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on
Jul 29, 2008 11:53 AM CDT
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quit
you’re just trying to rile people up…and you’re making a jackass out of yourself.
AJones for MY is something that makes me want to vomit.
by 8legs2fangs on
Jul 29, 2008 11:55 AM CDT
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If we got LaRouche too
it really isn’t a bad deal for Texas. We move Blalock or don’t pick up his option. LaRouche is at 3B and one of Vasquez/Duran/Arias mans SS for a year until Andrus is ready. Eating Jones’ contract for one year is better than Mike’s for the next several. Getting out of that canverous ballpark in LA would probably help Jones’ numbers. He won’t be great but I wouldn’t care for one freaking year.
by Hull Fan on
Jul 29, 2008 11:59 AM CDT
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If we get somebody else, then it becomes a little better
but, I believe based on LA’s past trading history (or lack there of) that this would only be a one for one deal. In the past they have refused to part with prospects or add payroll.
Godwin's Law Version 2.0 (Rangers Edition)
"As a Ranger discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Danks, Volquez, or Young approaches one."
by LBBRangerFan on
Jul 29, 2008 12:04 PM CDT
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say it with me...we don't NEED hitting.
we don’t NEED hitting. one more time…please. we don’t NEED to trade our top hitters for more hitting. I don’t care if we are already thinking of Hank being gone, he isn’t, and if he were, we could do much worse than Vasquez and Duran platooning, or Max and Salty platooning 3rd and trying to move Davis back there. the need is pitching. please do NOT try to say we should trade any of these names – Young, Bradley, Blalock, Laird, Salty (assuming Teagarden is the future behind the plate, Hamilton, Kinsler and Max-Ram are essentially off limits) – for anything short of an ace or definite # 2 starter with youth on his side.
"No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of."
by Walter Sobchak on
Jul 29, 2008 12:08 PM CDT
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I meant Max and Salty
platooning 1st of course and Davis moving back to 3rd.
"No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of."
by Walter Sobchak on
Jul 29, 2008 12:09 PM CDT
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you sir
are starting to sound like LBrooks
W: "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
by hubcityraider on
Jul 29, 2008 12:17 PM CDT
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sorry.
I just find it rather ridiculous that we’d trade Mike Young for a young third baseman just to shed his salary. I am so happy that we paid Mike Young what we did, and Tex didn’t take the deal we offered. Of course, it’s easy to say that with Davis at 1B now and Smoak on the horizon…
"No, Donny, these men are nihilists, there's nothing to be afraid of."
by Walter Sobchak on
Jul 29, 2008 4:02 PM CDT
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it's people like you
that will keep JD from trading MY from a PR perspective.
In reality, what’s the difference between Placido Polanco and Michael Young…aside from Young making making about 3X Polanco starting next year.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on
Jul 29, 2008 12:10 PM CDT
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