Trade Rumor w/Red Sox
Reported on mlbtraderumors.com, the Red Sox are apparently looking for a young catching prospect.
The Red Sox are still looking for an heir to Jason Varitek's throne. Apparently the Sox have inquired about catching prospects. The Rangers are considered to have the game's largest surplus at the position.
I mentioned this a while ago, but dealing either Max Ramirez, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, or Taylor Teagarden for a young pitcher or pitchers like Justin Masterson or Michael Bowden would make a lot of sense for the Rangers. I think they could probably get Masterson/Bowden plus a reliever like Craig Hansen or a low level prospect with upside like Josh Reddick or Ryan Kalish.
Thoughts?
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Comments
I posted this in the Trade Deadline Update thread.
Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!
by DerekSTheRed on Jul 7, 2008 1:49 PM CDT 0 recs
that's not really a rumor
not really.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Jul 7, 2008 2:01 PM CDT 0 recs
And your link
doesn’t work.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Jul 7, 2008 2:19 PM CDT 0 recs
Here ya go...
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/07/red-sox-trade-w.html
I'd love for part of the "new look" to be a return to the red uniforms of the 1990s. - Ian Kinsler
by ortonius on Jul 7, 2008 2:28 PM CDT 0 recs
I posted a diary on the Sox site, if anyone wants to follow the thread ...
http://www.overthemonster.com/2008/7/7/566359/sbn-visitor-w-buchholz-inq
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on Jul 7, 2008 2:35 PM CDT 0 recs
let me fix this for you
Catcher of your choice + Wilson + high-ceiling minors player … is that enough?
For Bucholz – catcher of your choice OR Wilson + 2 high celing prospects minus a few untouchables.
"Publicly, Beavan has said in an interview that his velocity has dropped because he's not used to throwing as much and because of all the travel -- late night bus rides, sleeping in hotels, not the best nutrition, etc."
by RangerMad on
Jul 7, 2008 2:53 PM CDT
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Whats your definition
of a high ceiling minor league player?
Andrus?
"I'm thinking of starting Quite Frankly in my garage, would you be my first guest?"
by miles on
Jul 7, 2008 3:10 PM CDT
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Love me some BGL
But Buchholz is untouchable in just about any system, except for possibly Boston’s, imo.
Gotta give up a lot of value to get a lot of value. Your scenario wouldn’t net you Buchholz even if those prospects were named Feliz and Andrus—both of whom should be held on to, at all costs.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 3:18 PM CDT
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Andrus?
Why?
Its not like that is a weak point in our system.
We have Marcus Lemon who is right under Andrus, Arias is a filler. And we have a “franchise player” locked up for years to come.
Andrus is not untouchable by any means, and shouldn’t be.
"I'm thinking of starting Quite Frankly in my garage, would you be my first guest?"
by miles on
Jul 7, 2008 3:21 PM CDT
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*Sigh *
Too early to decide if Lemon will be a SS or 2B, first of all. Arias is a 1-yr stopgap, at best.
Andrus’ arrival in the next year or two could complete the team—positionally. If he doesn’t pan out, we will likely be paying the price (either in FA, trade, or inferior defense).
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 3:29 PM CDT
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Complete the team?
What about the pitching staff?
There is no such thing as "untouchable".
by miles on
Jul 7, 2008 3:49 PM CDT
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You forgot one little magic word, miles!
You know, the word that qualifies that statement?
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 3:56 PM CDT
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None will
get Clay B.
"I'm thinking of starting Quite Frankly in my garage, would you be my first guest?"
by miles on
Jul 7, 2008 3:09 PM CDT
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You never know
First response I got:
I am not sure if Bucholz is untouchable anymore, or if Lester is untouchable now because of his recent success. In my personal opinion I would rather get rid of Buch.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 3:25 PM CDT
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too bad
that guy isnt their gm. I doubt theo shares his sentiment.
I'm sorry...did you just suggest Burnett for Arias, Gold, and another player?- slc ranger
by rchawk12 on
Jul 7, 2008 3:26 PM CDT
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That's your opinion
fine.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 3:30 PM CDT
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Buchholz
I am the Sox fan who posted the previously quoted information about Buch. Buch is in my opinion the highest rated pitching prospect. He is just that though a “prospect”. Jon Lester has solidified into a solid major leaguer, I don’t consider him a prospect anymore.
The Red Sox however have the fortunate luxury of a deep pitching prospect pool. Our Ace (Beckett) is 28, Dice-K is 27, and Jon Lester is 24. This is just our starting lineup. I think it would be silly to list any pitching prospect “untouchable”, this comes with the caveat though that we will definetly ask alot for him.
I also consider Lester untouchable because, at the age of 24 he as already thrown a no hitter, pitched for a win in a WS game, and has pitched 117 innings with an ERA of 3.21 this year. How many 24 years olds can say they have done that?
Thanks for letting me post in your blog.
by drabidea on
Jul 8, 2008 12:05 PM CDT
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I dont think
there is a chance we add CJ to a package like that, IF we trade CJ, his value around the league is very underated here
by blueballlefty on
Jul 7, 2008 3:31 PM CDT
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I'm aware of his value
do you think I’ve underrated him in some way?
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 3:32 PM CDT
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I just think
that alot of people on this site are underrating him this year because he’s had a couple of rough outings in non save situations. If things keep going this way he could very well have 23 or 24 saves at the break, he’s 26 he has 2 or 3 years of control left, he is left handed and throws in the mid 90’s with a lot of movement. I think if we gave up CJ, Salty, ?Andrus, Lemon, Mayberry? we would be overpaying for Bucholz (which for some reason is very overrated on this site, not saying he isnt a top SP prospect because he is)
by blueballlefty on
Jul 7, 2008 3:37 PM CDT
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That's a pretty idle SBN Blog
I went over to Sons of Sam Horn, they have a trades thread and a wiki about 2008 trades. May be a more active site.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Jul 7, 2008 3:19 PM CDT 0 recs
Yeah
this site is overvaluing/rating Buchholz.
"Mr. Hicks, you watch, I'm going to be a leader on this team." Kinsler
by sprite on Jul 7, 2008 3:23 PM CDT 0 recs
Huh?
How so?
And, if so, who is a more realistic / better target?
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 3:24 PM CDT
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Buchholz
is no sure thing. He’s had flashes of brilliance but has been very inconsistent, as is expected with a young player. . To give up let’s say, Max/BGL/Font/Vallejo for Buch is, imo, way too much for a guy that has not proven he can do it on a day in day out basis. Even one with as much promise as Buchholz.
"Mr. Hicks, you watch, I'm going to be a leader on this team." Kinsler
by sprite on
Jul 7, 2008 3:34 PM CDT
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I didn't suggest that package
but, you’re busting out the “TINSTAAPP” on me.
Buchholz is as close as you can get to a young pitcher with ace stuff and results. He’s also one of the few whose circumstances might make him available.
I’m curious, who would you trade for?
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 3:38 PM CDT
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Oh, I'd try to get
Buchholz. For a package around Salt but with no BGL. Another pipe dream would be Cain. I would give up Max/BGL/Font/Vallejo for Cain in a heartbeat.
"Mr. Hicks, you watch, I'm going to be a leader on this team." Kinsler
by sprite on
Jul 7, 2008 3:46 PM CDT
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That doesn't make much sense to me
Cain is damn good, but struggling this year.
I don’t see why the package would have to be reshaped significantly for him. This is a comment from a Sickel’s thread:
If Clay Buchholz isn’t an A prospect, no pitcher is. I’ve been watching baseball for 45 years and I’m not willing to name a pitcher whose change and curve were both clearly better.Fwiw, he’s been dominating while working on his fastball command, a pitch that tops out at 97, reportedly.
Lincecum is the pipe dream.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 3:55 PM CDT
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Hate to keep
going to the TINSTAAPP argument but Cain is more proven therefore I am willing to give up more to get him. Also Cain is only a month older than Clay.
"Mr. Hicks, you watch, I'm going to be a leader on this team." Kinsler
by sprite on
Jul 7, 2008 4:02 PM CDT
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To get Cain
The Rangers would have to give up three prospects at least, and the Giants would want pitching in return. Something like an Andrus, Kiker/Main, Borbon deal.
by sggut95 on
Jul 7, 2008 4:08 PM CDT
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id SERIOUSLY consider
salty/kiker/borbon
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on
Jul 7, 2008 5:00 PM CDT
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+1
I’d do that in a heartbeat, although I would seriously try and avoid trading borbon. It wouldnt necessarily be a deal breaker, but I think borbon has a great chance to be manning center for us for a long time. Thats a lot to give up but you might be able to switch out kiker and borbon for a little lesser prospects (i.e. phillips/poveda and vallejo/JMJ) although you might have to throw in an extra lower level prospect. Those are three of my favorite prospects and I’d still have a hard time arguing against that as a ranger fan.
I'm sorry...did you just suggest Burnett for Arias, Gold, and another player?- slc ranger
by rchawk12 on
Jul 7, 2008 5:21 PM CDT
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I'd do that in a New York minute.
There is no such thing as global warming. David Murphy was cold, so he turned the sun up.
by SarasotaRanger on
Jul 7, 2008 6:55 PM CDT
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Fair enough
but there’s no question that Buchholz’ stuff translates to MLB.
After all, he was fortunate enough to throw one of Varitek’s “four no-hitters” in just his 2nd ML start last year at age 22, same age as Cain’s breakout. I’d wager Buchholz’ results will compare more favorably than Cain’s in 2 years.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 4:08 PM CDT
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I'd rather
Have Bucholtz than Cain. You’re right about the change and curve, both plus pitches. No way he throws 97, though. He tops out at 95, and he’ll only hit that once or twice a game. But he sits comfortably at 92-93, and with offspeed stuff that good, you don’t need to throw 95 all game.
by sggut95 on
Jul 7, 2008 4:11 PM CDT
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I mean
people throw around top-end velo’s all the time. I’m sure he’s reached 97 before, but I’ll take your word if you’ve seen him recently.
My guess is that in order to have control of it with movement, he’ll have to sit 92-93, which as you say, is more than sufficient.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 4:14 PM CDT
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His scouting report on soxprospects.com mentions it
Buchholz has a low-to-mid 90s four-seam fastball, a two-seam fastball with decent movement, a slider, a hard 12-to-6 curveball, and a change-up. In 2006, Buchholz actually let loose towards the end of the season, when his fastball was sitting around 96 mph. However, over the course of the season his fastball typically sits around 91-94 and tops out at about 97 mph. His plus change-up is generally a straight change that sits around 78-82 mph; he also throws a circle change. His curveball, the best in the organization, sits between 76-81 mph with a knee-buckling bite. On any given night, Buchholz’s curve or change can be unhittable, and he tends to rely on whichever is on as his out pitch throughout the game. His slider, while average to above average, is a bit behind his other secondary pitches and sits in the low to mid 80s. Mixes in all of his pitches phenomenally. Good demeanor on the mound. Pitches well under pressure, pitching coaches have said he has ice water running through his veins. Nice pick-off move. Struggled with consistency early in his pro career, but otherwise has ace makeup. Might need to add and maintain some weight to endure a full major league season.
by coolaid on
Jul 7, 2008 4:28 PM CDT
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soxprospects.com
Tends to overrate their prospects, pitchers especially, adding a few ticks to the fastball in particular. I’ve only ever seen Bucholtz on TV, but I’ve never seen him top 95, and the TV gun has a reputation for being 2-3 mph fast. I’m not saying CB isn’t a stud, just that he’s not a flame thrower. And with his secondary stuff, he really doesn’t have to be.
by sggut95 on
Jul 7, 2008 4:33 PM CDT
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Wrong,
actually they are underrating him.
There is no such thing as "untouchable".
by miles on
Jul 7, 2008 3:25 PM CDT
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+1
I'm sorry...did you just suggest Burnett for Arias, Gold, and another player?- slc ranger
by rchawk12 on
Jul 7, 2008 3:26 PM CDT
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Word
"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007
by Longhorn on
Jul 7, 2008 3:30 PM CDT
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Got any better ideas?
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 3:33 PM CDT
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i don't mind trading for buck
but do it in the garza/young template, not a 3 or 4 for 1.
"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007
by Longhorn on
Jul 7, 2008 3:50 PM CDT
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lol
do you think that’s possible? If so, who would we have to trade?
Garza is damn good, but I think many would argue that Buchholz’ potential is significantly better.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 4:00 PM CDT
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Not Sure
The Rangers have anyone the Sox would trade straight up for Bucholtz. Hamilton maybe, but there’s no way the Rangers would do that.
by sggut95 on
Jul 7, 2008 4:04 PM CDT
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Ham, maybe Kinsler
Delmon was a #1 pick. If we traded for Clay, we would have to give up a package.
by LiamP on
Jul 7, 2008 4:08 PM CDT
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If Boston had Pedroia and Lugo switched
do you think Kinsler would net Buchholz, by himself?
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 4:11 PM CDT
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Would you?
Vallejo in AA ..
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 4:16 PM CDT
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Prospects are great...
but Kinsler’s really stinking good. Gotta hold on to him unless you’re overwhelmed by an offer.
by sggut95 on
Jul 7, 2008 4:18 PM CDT
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Point taken and I agree
but pitching always has and will always be the utmost priority.
I think Ranger fans need to be ready to part with major pieces, at some point, in order to improve the long-term pitching staff. If we get lucky enough to grow our own, perfect.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 4:23 PM CDT
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If Boston didn't
already love Pedroia at second, they’d probably do Kinsler for Bucholtz in a heartbeat. Pedroia doesn’t have the range or the arm to play short, though, so he’s not going anywhere. Plus, the Sox have Lowrie just about ready to take over for Lugo, and the organization loves him, too.
by sggut95 on
Jul 7, 2008 4:14 PM CDT
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what's funny?
But yeah, i think so. Young was top 5 prospect, so is Buck. Garza was in the 20s and Salty was in the 30s in top overall prospects by BA in ‘07.
"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007
by Longhorn on
Jul 7, 2008 4:15 PM CDT
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Hamilton and Kinsler
are the only two who would net him without additional pieces. Neither of them are going anywhere.
Something significant would have to be added to Salty, no? Who did you have in mind?
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 4:20 PM CDT
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Are we talking
trying to get Garza? Cause I don’t think the Rays are going to let him go.
by sggut95 on
Jul 7, 2008 4:29 PM CDT
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like i said
it would be something comparable with the 6 player trade the Twins and Rays pulled off. I wouldn’t know where to begin with the others involved, but it comes down to what Boston and Texas value more. Also, Tampa wanted another starter, Minnesota had the pitching, but wanted a hitter. Perfect match there. Boston has an abundance of young pitching and Texas has some great, young catching prospects. Perfect match here. I wouldn’t think you need to add anything significant in a deal like that…
"I really think JD is probably going to be one of the best things ever to happen to the Rangers." - Longhorn, May 27th, 2007
by Longhorn on
Jul 7, 2008 4:35 PM CDT
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I think
The Sox might even take Laird for Masterson or Bowden. He’s young enough to give them a couple good years, he’s ready now, and the Sox can try to draft and develop their own young catcher. They do seem to love Salty, though, because they did their best to try to pry him away from Atlanta before the Teixeira trade.
by sggut95 on
Jul 7, 2008 4:40 PM CDT
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No dude, they wouldn't
Don't knock masturbation, it's sex with someone I love .
by Brian Thomas on
Jul 8, 2008 6:31 AM CDT
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Well
I would be absolutely shocked if we could trade Salty or any single player (not named Hamilton/Kinsler) for Buchholz.
That deal should have been done yesterday, imo. I remember people talking about Salty for Snell, Cain, and other 2/3 types. He hasn’t exactly raised his value, as much as I like him.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 4:49 PM CDT
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No way
the Sox would do a one-for-one for Bucholtz unless they got a top return. Think of the Volquez for Hamilton deal. The Rangers got a major league starter with tremendous upside for a pitcher they had pretty much given up on. That speaks to the value of young pitching. And Sox are in love with Bucholtz, so that would make them want even more back. No one’s untouchable, but it would take a lot to pry him loose.
by sggut95 on
Jul 7, 2008 4:53 PM CDT
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Salty for Cain
Did you hear it from a reputable source, or was it just trade banter on here?
by LiamP on
Jul 7, 2008 4:55 PM CDT
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Can't imagine
that’s a real possibility. Giants are set at catcher with B Molina holding down the fort for Buster Posey, who should be ready fast.
by sggut95 on
Jul 7, 2008 4:58 PM CDT
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Banter
but solid opinions, not ridiculous types.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 5:01 PM CDT
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The Giants
are not trading either Cain or Lincecum. You might be able to wrest Alderson or Bumgarner if you had someone they really really wanted, but I don’t see them parting with the two major leaguers for anyone.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Jul 7, 2008 5:08 PM CDT
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Personally
I think they would move Cain in the right deal. Not Lincecum. They would want pitching back, though, and some pretty impressive prospects in the package.
by sggut95 on
Jul 7, 2008 5:13 PM CDT
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Check out Cain's line
something’s up.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 5:31 PM CDT
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?
Seems fine to me for a 23-yr. old starter. What do you see?
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Jul 7, 2008 5:43 PM CDT
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An odd regression?
He could just be missing his spots more often (HR/9 hasn’t been worse, significant increase in LD%, significant decrease in GB%), but if it keeps up for another 80 innings, then last year’s season inflated expectations.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 5:57 PM CDT
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Perhaps
I did notice the GB thing, but his K/BB still looks similar. His BABIP is up from last year (.307 vs. .286) so some of that could be luck.
Although his ERA has bumped up this year, his FIP is virtually identical to the last 2 years (3.77 this year, 3.72 last season, 3.93 in 2006) so I’m not convinced he’s any different.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Jul 7, 2008 7:11 PM CDT
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Well
generally I would turn to BABIP to defend a pitcher, also, except that it’s clear he is missing more this year. You can’t field a HR.
Besides, that BABIP is still fairly normalized, if not better for Cain than the other Giants SP’s. If it was an outlier, say .320+, FIP being equal, then you could argue that his defense is letting him down.
Lincecum’s BABIP is .318, for instance. Sanchez at .309. Zito at .336. The defense plays no different behind Cain, if anything, he’s had better luck, imo.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 7:21 PM CDT
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Ok, but
that defense is different than the defense he had last year is part of the point. His BABIPs were .271 and .286 the previous two years, so that seems like a big enough jump to at least partly account for the GB and LD rates. 5% of his fly balls are HR’s, vs. 4% last year and 5% in 2006.
He may not be having as good a year as last year, but the difference is smaller than his ERA indicates is my feeling. And I don’t see anything truly alarming.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Jul 7, 2008 7:31 PM CDT
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Touche
Thedirkatron or some other regular had opined about possible injury, which is why my thoughts were on that track. It’s not like I’ve seen him pitch live or anything, just something you think about when you see a significant regression in raw stats such as ERA+, for a young pitcher coming off a breakout season.
Durham and Vizquel are a year older, Feliz replaced by Castillo. Lincecum ‘07 BABIP: .295. Lowry ‘07 BABIP: .288. Zito ‘07 BABIP: .272.
The defense is different, that much is true, but it is worse for everybody. Use FIP—that’s where I have to concede that it’s not as bad as I initially thought.
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Jul 7, 2008 7:51 PM CDT
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I'm glad
you brought all this to my attention, though. Now that you have I’ll watch is number the rest of the year to see what happens.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Jul 7, 2008 8:31 PM CDT
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