On Smoak and a major league deal
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 15, 2008 10:02 AM CDT
61 comments
Several folks, the past several days, have asked if Justin Smoak getting a major league deal would start his free agency/arbitration clock sooner.
The answer is, no.
It would mean that the player would have a spot on the 40 man roster, and would start burning options in 2009.
But free agency and arbitration eligibility is based on time in the majors (which, for what it is worth, includes time on the 15 or 60 day d.l.). Getting a major league deal isn't going to change that.
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player advantages
Adam, what is the advantage for the player in getting a ML contract?
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
by RangerMad on Aug 15, 2008 10:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
FA sooner
Getting a ML deal means you are on options and so the team has to make a decision on you faster. They bring you up and you start accruing service time.
If you don’t have a ML deal they can keep you off the 40 man roster for 3-4 years then have another 3 option years where theoretically they could not bring you up and then they would still have 6 years of team control.
Now if you are as good as Smoak is you wouldn’t wait that long anyway but a ML deal does get you to FA quicker than not having one.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Aug 15, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
correct...
…its a business move more than a baseball move… a spot on the 40 means your more likely to get called up than another player do the same as you, even though they might have been doing it longer nd more consistently, because they have to have a spot made for them on the roster… once you get called up your options start getting used and theoretically you end up getting to FA faster… making big money.
I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA
by ivysafety39 on Aug 15, 2008 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Draftees insisting
on the ML contract looks like a ‘me first’ power play move to me. If a team’s 40 is full of players in development that they can’t actually use (Borbon) then it screws with the team’s ability to contend. Then the draftee, when they finally get to the bigs is playing for a sub-par team that has been forced to make reactionary moves with their roster, many of which don’t pan out. (having to choose Mendoza or Galarraga) Sure, a spot on the 40 may get a player to the bigs quicker, but what possible motivation could a team have to hamper a player’s development? In short it seems like a demand that does little to help the player and does something substantial to hurt the team.
by jcAustin on Aug 15, 2008 10:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Who else should a drafted player put "first"?
Of course they have a “me first” attitude. They certainly shouldn’t expect the team that drafts them to have their best financial interests at heart.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on Aug 15, 2008 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my point is they're
screwing the team that they’ll be playing for. You could argue that demanding a high signing bonus would be screwing them too, but in our case, the Rangers have some money to spend but no room on the 40. I don’t know any teams that feel like they have plenty of room on the 40 to do deals like this. And, if Smoak is tearing up AA or AAA do you think they’ll want him to languish down there for 3 years? These deals disproportionately hurt the ML team.
by jcAustin on Aug 15, 2008 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm trying not to offend you but...
…your viewpoint is naive. At this very moment all Smoak and his family and advisor(s) are thinking about is any and all financial impacts this negotiation will have on Smoak. Anything ele is so far down the list it will never come up in their discussions. And frankly that’s the way it should be.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on Aug 15, 2008 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's naive for players and agents
to think that their contract demands don’t affect the ability of the teams they play for to compete. And in this case I’m not suggesting Smoak should settle for less money than he thinks he deserves, he just gives the Rangers an unnecessary handicap for the next two years if he insists on being on the 40. If he’s as good as everyone says he is he’ll be with the big club in two or three years and the Rangers will have no interest whatsoever in keeping him from it. Good contracts are good for both parties. And anyway, it sounds like the Rangers don’t want to give him a ML deal, so if that demand blows the negotiations, he’s probably a year farther from the Bigs.
by jcAustin on Aug 15, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not that they're naive...
…it’s that they just don’t care. It’s not their responsibility to care. It’s their responsibility to get the best financial deal they can since there is a very real possibility that this is the only instance where they will have any leverage at all and also the only opportunity at a 7-figure payday.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on Aug 15, 2008 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
exactly....
they don’t care, but it would be smart to care.
by jcAustin on Aug 15, 2008 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
40 Man congestion
That’s the issue I have with him getting that. Sure he’s a better talent than some of the guys on the 40 man already, but it will make this year’s Rule 5 protection a little more difficult.
It’d suck to lose another Armando Galarraga because we have one less 40 man spot to play with, like we had one less spot to play with because of Borbon’s inclusion…
What's the rumpus?
by Hypo-Luxa on Aug 15, 2008 10:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Borbon is fine
He would be a problem if he was still toiling down in A ball and not looking like he would make an impact anytime soon. As it is he looks like he could be up here sometime next season. His ML contract is fine and not causing any congestion. Just like Smoaks probably wouldn’t. He is such a talent he should rise quickly.
The problem we have had is guys like Arias and Metcalf and Rheinicker. Fringe guys taking up spots and we chose them over Galarraga. As I have said before the only reason I am upset about losing Galarraga is because he was an unnecessary loss. He had options left so unless we thought he couldn’t come around in the next couple years we should have held on to him.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Aug 15, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well
Galarraga had one option left, which I think is the main reason he was viewed as expendable…it seemed unlikely he’d claim a spot definitively this year, which would put him in a Tejeda situation next year.
Arias and Rheinecker I think have some value. Metcalf? Meh…
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 15, 2008 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
with the depth that we have at 3b in the system I think Metcalf is more valuable than Rheinecker. I think we can afford to lose him and just move Gabbard to the bullpen. They are similar pitchers and I do not see Gabbard in the rotation. I think that we can choose out of the two pitchers. Just let JD choose one and then keep the other one.
by CRUSHDAVIS on Aug 15, 2008 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gabbard
I know Connor felt Gabbard wasn’t a viable option in the pen, because it took him too long to warm up.
Particularly for a guy in a LOOGY role, you want someone who can get ready quick.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 15, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What was Connor's opinion on Gallaraga?
by FuturePants on Aug 15, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but is he really that viable in the starter role either though?
by CRUSHDAVIS on Aug 15, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
soft tosser
I also don’t think you want a soft tossing LOOGY.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
by RangerMad on Aug 15, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
I think a lot of LOOGYs are guys who don’t throw hard. Mike Myers and Brian Shouse come to mind.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 15, 2008 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
mid 90s
Couldn’t Shouse get up to around 93-94 when he was pitching for Texas? What does Gabbard top out at? 90 on a good day with the wind at his back?
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
by RangerMad on Aug 15, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Shouse
82.9 is the highest average FB velocity Fangraphs has him at:
http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=630&position=P
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 15, 2008 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
surprising
Wow. I stand corrected.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
by RangerMad on Aug 15, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Borbon
is fine now, sure, but at the time we had some tough-ish Rule 5 protection decisions to make. Not so bad last year, but this year will be harder, and next will be harder, etc. Just saying, an insistence for a ML contract will be annoying…not earth-shattering, just annoying…
If ML contracts for 1st rounders becomes the norm they’re going to have to either create a sub-group or expand the 40 Man to 50…
What's the rumpus?
by Hypo-Luxa on Aug 15, 2008 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So who is going to be Rule 5 eligible this winter?
"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno
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by hinduplaya on Aug 15, 2008 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of guys not on the 40 man already...
Mayberry and Vallejo are the two most likely to be added.
You also have Kometani, Poveda, and Ben Harrison, who are possible (but not likely, IMO).
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 15, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't think Poveda will be protected?
by LiamP on Aug 15, 2008 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But only because there is no way he would stick on a big
league staff for a whole year.
by Goyogringo on Aug 15, 2008 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
With the new CBA that had come out it gave us an extra year before alot of guys had to be protected. Guys like Hurley and such who don’t have to be protected until this winter now.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Aug 15, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This rule is a joke
and the Commissioner should come down and say NO ML contracts.
I think that’s something that can be voted on and accepted a lot easier than say the paid slot system.
by Coolbean04 on Aug 15, 2008 10:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
MLBPA would have to agree
Personally, I think the thing that would make the most sense is to have some sort of hard slotting system, like with the NBA, on draftees, and get the MLBPA to get on board with that.
Which makes more sense for the MLBPA, if you think about it, because it means more money in the owners’ pockets to spend on established players (which is why the NFLPA and NBAPA were agreeable to caps and slotting).
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 15, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the NFL is a bad example.
Jake Long the #1 pick overall is being paid more than any other OL in the ENTIRE NFL. The highest paid player at his position and never played one snap yet.
by Coolbean04 on Aug 15, 2008 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Change draft rules
1- Don’t allow major league contracts to draftees (this helps current players by allowing the 40th guys on rosters to keep their spots). The 40 man should only be for guys who can reasonably be expected to come up to the majors if needed.
2- First and supplemental round junior/senior college draftees must be put on 40 man in 1 year(so a 2008 draftee must be put on after the 2009 season)
3- 1st and supp JC/sophomore college draftees must go on in 2 years (2008 → after 2010) First round high school draftees (not supplemental) must be put on 40 man in 2 years
4
Something like this would eliminate avoiding players based on roster composition, which is a silly reason not to draft a guy (Porcello) or sign a guy.
I don’t think you could fix signing bonuses. I think you’d end up with more guys going to independent leagues, which are strong enough in baseball to be worth while.
by JBImaknee on Aug 15, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think that a team would be in more shambles if u have to put a high school kid on in 2 years. They are not expected to be up for 4 or 5 years at the earliest. What happens to them if the are not added to the roster.
by CRUSHDAVIS on Aug 15, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is just to be on the 40
As it is, high school kids still need to be on after 3 full years. So it is just 1 less year for first round talent (who should be good enough to merit a 40 man spot after two years) . Think Hurley could have been on before this season?
by JBImaknee on Aug 15, 2008 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
High school kids have to be on after 4 full years — that’s why Hurley (a 2004 draftee) didn’t have to be added until after 2008.
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 15, 2008 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know
As I was writing that about Hurley, I was thinking that it had to have been longer for him. Should have trusted that instinct.
Okay, to fix my proposed rules just reduce the first round high school wait to 3 years.
by JBImaknee on Aug 15, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That rule was just changed...
…a couple of years ago…
by Adam J. Morris on Aug 15, 2008 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smoak
Say he gets a ML deal who would we DFA to make room for him? Metcalf? Arias? Do we put CJ on the 60 day DL and wait for the winter to sort it out?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Aug 15, 2008 10:58 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think you DL CJ and wait until winter to sort it out
by uthornfan on Aug 15, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who would play OF?
Hes here out of necessity. With Murph and Bradley not able to play the field we can’t afford to drop him. Unless you want to see Cat out in LF everyday
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Aug 15, 2008 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
At this point would it really matter who plays LF?
I know they have to make an effort to put a competitive team on the field but I’ll sacrifice the spareness that is Ellison and live with more Frankie the Cat in LF to save someone who might help us in ’09 and beyond.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on Aug 15, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly, if this deal doesn't get made
This entire week will have been the most epic of epic fails.
by venturafearsnolan on Aug 15, 2008 11:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Still confused
So, if Smoak signs a ML contract, the worst-case advantage for him is minor league free agency?
I totally thought a ML contract gets a player to free agency faster, and that’s the whole reason amatuer players want them (apart from the roster-space angle that incentivizes promoting the player to the ML team).
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Aug 15, 2008 1:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
minor league free agency?
where did you get that from? The advantage for him is it forces a team to use him faster thus getting him service time faster which leads to arbitration and free agency faster.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Aug 15, 2008 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Minor league free agency
If a player signs a ML deal but doesn’t get used by the ML club (as I say, worst-case scenario), he’d end up a minor league free agent, right?
OK, actually I guess it would be a DFA.
The player either becomes a major leaguer, or the team cuts him to regain his roster spot, or his options run out (minor league free agent, eg, Nelson Cruz in 2009).
Actually reading through the comments I think I get the overall picture.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Aug 15, 2008 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
minor league free agency
a player becomes a minor league free agent if they have been in the minors for 6 season without being added to a 40 man roster.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Aug 15, 2008 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK, so Nelson Cruz
Is he a minor league free agent this winter? Is that because he won’t be on the 40 after 6 seasons?
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Aug 15, 2008 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cruz
yes he is. But no its not. He will be a FA because he is out of options and isn’t on the 40 man roster. Now if we add him to the 40 man then we would retain control of him but he would have to stay on the active roster. If we DFAd him he could become a FA because hes been DFAd before.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Aug 15, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually...
hightowersmith is right. It’s not about options. A player with six full years in pro ball who is not on the 40 has minor league free agency rights.
by Jamey Newberg on Aug 15, 2008 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"It's going to happen"
Per Smoak’s coach at South Carolina.
Article from The Greenville News about his teammate Darnell (2nd round) signing for $740k.
by Outworlder47 on Aug 15, 2008 2:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Not sure where this fits
but the Yankees apparently arent going to be able to sign their first rounder
http://bats.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/08/14/first-round-pick-gerrit-cole-opts-for-college-over-yankees/
"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno
LSB facebook group ---->>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33345329288
by hinduplaya on Aug 15, 2008 2:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
To quote Josh Lewin
Cry me a big bag of money.
by texnykazrus on Aug 15, 2008 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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