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Tuesday morning things

Dark day today.  The Rangers waste a nice performance from Scott Feldman, and even worse, Ian Kinsler appears to be done for the year.

That really sucks.

Kinsler is supposed to see a specialist today, and in the meantime, it sounds like Travis Metcalf will be the regular third baseman until Hank Blalock returns, while Joaquin Arias and Ramon Vazquez platoon at second base.  Yippee.

Brandon Boggs left yesterday's game with a sore shoulder.  In the same article, Chris Davis says he thinks he's better equipped to play third base now than last year, because he is 25 pounds lighter and is no longer dealing with the broken bone in his foot that reduced his mobility last year.

Tim Cowlishaw says that the pitching is a disaster, and he figured the Rangers would trade Ian Kinsler this offseason to get pitching, but the injury should prevent that from happening.

 

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I am usually a Cowlishaw fan

But his column today varied between obvious and ridiculous. We all know the Rangers pitching is in shambles. We have all griped and vented in various ways over the last three weeks. But to suggest that the only way this team can bring in an impact pitcher is to trade Ian Kinsler suggests that Cowlishaw is no better than most of the tripe on the pages of the DMN. We have one of the deepest farm systems in baseball, including a surplus of catching and middle infielder prospects, two of the most valuable commodities in baseball. He also seems to think that Ben Sheets is the only decent FA option this offseason, but he is practically already Yankee property. I know it is a dark hour for the team (but not really, because the difference between midnight and one am is not that noticeable), but come on Tim, try to at least make a novel and convincing argument, less you find yourself in Galloway territory.

by clark on Aug 19, 2008 10:20 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I read Tim's article a little differently

It read to me like he was afraid that the Rangers would panic and trade Kins in the off-season. I defiantly did not read it like he thought that they should.

This was more an indictment of the Ranger’s history of trading pitchers and trading for pitchers and their apparent weaknesses in this department.

Again, it read like he was afraid that the Rangers would get panicky this off season with little pitching help coming right away.

Godwin's Law Version 2.0 (Rangers Edition)
"As a Ranger discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Danks, Volquez, or Young approaches one."

by LBBRangerFan on Aug 19, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cowlishaw approaching JJT in knowledge?

I think that discussing the possibility of trading Kinsler is one thing…he seems to suggest it was the only option before he got hurt. Um, WTF?

by FuturePants on Aug 19, 2008 10:21 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Methinks perhaps Tim Cowlishaw = Steal Home

Because they’re probably the only two people in the Ranger universe who have even thought about trading Ian Kinsler in the past 6 months.

But seriously… that article is odd. Guess Tim didn’t hear about Ian’s cheap contract extension?

A Lonestar in California

We need to hire Chuck Norris to kick the ass of any Ranger fan caught booing one of our young pitchers at the RBiA.

by lonestarJon on Aug 19, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Allow me to get hypothetical on that ass:

The Rays called you up on the 3st and offered David Price for Ian Kinsler. What do you do?

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Fuck that.

Kinsler is one of the more valuable pieces in all of baseball.

Somewhere between star and superstar and on the front porch of his prime with a very club-friendly contract.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 19, 2008 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

David Price is the best pitching prospect in all of baseball

And on the cusp of the bigs.

That’s one of the most valuable pieces in all of baseball too.

You want an ace, you gotta be willing to pay for it.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Absolutely

People here are willing to give out way more money than Sabathia and Sheets are probably worth, or they want to trade several highly regarded prospects for Greinke. But all of a sudden Kinsler for Price is taboo? I don’t get it. That is not saying that I think Kinsler must go; I’d rather he stay with the Rangers for the next several years.

by Excel Hearts Choi on Aug 19, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Price is one of the very few I’d even consider trading Kins for.

Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.

by TheBZA on Aug 19, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Billingsley

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

HELLO + 1

"Well you didn't tell me that you were a Rangers fan" the psychiatrist says to his patient. "That explains a lot!"

by LAMuscleFag on Aug 19, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yep

Price, Kershaw Lincecum, that about covers it.

Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.

by TheBZA on Aug 19, 2008 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

does kinsler really have that much value

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well

he’s not Miggy Cabrera, but, yeah.

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 19, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

definitely

Aikman and Bradshaw?

Please. They are in the same league as Trent Dilfer and Jim McMahon as QBs who were taken to the SB by great Defenses and great Running Games.
-DJCahill

by SarasotaRanger on Aug 19, 2008 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM

by Jayslick on Aug 19, 2008 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He obviously knows what one of those is

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

if only...

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He ain't an ace yet.

The idea of trading, one for one, a guy like Kinsler for a prospect, regardless of how highly that prospect is acclaimed, is a recipe for disaster.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

no, but..

…i do think the only way for the rangers to acquire an ace and keep him for more than season is take a shot at a ml ready but unproven guy… he’ll be more affordable and be under team control long enough for him to be around when we win and increase the odds of us signing him to a long term deal….

I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA

by ivysafety39 on Aug 19, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If we really think Kins for the unproven guy is "affordable" ...

then we might as just fold up the franchise and get it over with.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+ 1 YEP

DON"T DO IT!!!

Proven Superstar > Prospect

"Well you didn't tell me that you were a Rangers fan" the psychiatrist says to his patient. "That explains a lot!"

by LAMuscleFag on Aug 19, 2008 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

its not much of a disaster because

Price is going to be a great pitcher and he is ML-ready, hes just in AAA right now

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You think.

Until he’s dominating at the ML level, he’s just a prospect. And you never trade a star for a single prospect … unless you just really like losing on deals.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

its a hitter, we can lose one

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Once he is dominating at the ML level

he is untouchable, until he is a free agent. At the point he is a free agent, he ain’t coming to Texas.

So basicly, you are saying the only way we see a frontline starter is if we develop one.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

developing a starter

is exactly what needs to be done, thats the only way the rangers will get a front line starter without trading away key pieces

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Aug 19, 2008 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How in the hell are you sure he's ML ready?

How many major league games has he pitched to show that? He’s been kick ass in AAA, but, as “great” as he is, nobody knows for sure yet he’s major league ready. FWIW, I THINK he will be, but it’s a huge risk going Kinsler for Price straight up.

Aikman and Bradshaw?

Please. They are in the same league as Trent Dilfer and Jim McMahon as QBs who were taken to the SB by great Defenses and great Running Games.
-DJCahill

by SarasotaRanger on Aug 19, 2008 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the biggest risk

is to keep trotting out a shitty rotation during the prime of Hambone’s career and thinking that one year we will catch lightning in 5 seperate bottles and have a servicable rotation that way.

For the team to improve, the rotation must improve. For that to happen via trade, it’s going to hurt a little.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or, as you're proposing, a ton ...

for a non-guaranteed return. If Kins is traded, it’s got to be for Price+ or an already established ace. No prospect is worth a ML MVP candidate by himself. Period.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

please put the crackpipe down

its debatable whether a HOF 2b has as much value as a #2 starter

"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM

by Jayslick on Aug 19, 2008 3:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It's amazing to me that Ranger fans

have seen so much shitty pitching for so many years, but yet the fanbase just doesn’t seem to ever be interested in trading away offense for pitching.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Offense vs Pitching

maybe the fans don’t know what good pitching is like so they undervalue it. Sitting there in Saturday’s game watching Harrison mow down Ray after Ray I was thinking to myself…I could really get used to this.

If there is a chance to get a Price, you DO IT. Sure it’s going to hurt, but when you have a position of strength (remember Andrus is close and either moving MY back to 2B or Elvis moving to 2B could both work) you deal for a position of weakness.

What's the rumpus?

by Hypo-Luxa on Aug 19, 2008 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stick your crack pipe up your crack.

The kid is a prospect that has never pitched in the majors. He isn’t anything until then. Trading a guy that is capable of putting up Kinsler’s offensive numbers for a guy that has never done anything at the ML level is the epitome of stupidity. A major league GM would have to be on crack to even consider such a move.

It’s pretty simple: you trade multiple prospects for established vets; you do not trade a MVP candidate for a single prospect.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hes not an MVP candidate anymore

And his injury history probably decreases his trade value. As soon as Price pitches in the bigs this type of deal becomes impossible. After that it will take Kinsler + to get a guy of Prices talent.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's see how he fares against big league hitters ...

or is that whole part just a formality now?

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i agree

if and thats a BIG if you were to trade kinsler, i’d want a guy who IS an ace at the ml level already not a prospect ace.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Aug 19, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kinsler

won’t get you a guy that is an ace at the Ml level. I don’t think he gets you Price by himself.

"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08

by badradiorules on Aug 19, 2008 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

People really seem to think that folks will trade you established major league aces for cheap. Its pretty rare to trade for an ace unless it is before he is established, or he is in his walk year.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

What do you think it’d take to get Brandon Webb out of AZ?

Hambone, Kinsler, + a prospect probably.

Not because he’s literally twice as good as they are, but because you just don’t trade aces unless they’re in their walk year and you know you won’t be able to afford them going forward (like CC).

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

there you have it

that is why you have to trade for Brandon Webb in 2002.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

didnt say i think it would happen

just saying if im trading kinsler thats what i’d want

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Aug 19, 2008 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you don't take a risk like that

you never get an ace, on the other hand. I don’t think we are gonna get an ace for Drew Meyer.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

thank you

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you may want to reconsider things when steal home starts agreeing with you

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Aug 19, 2008 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh

Aikman and Bradshaw?

Please. They are in the same league as Trent Dilfer and Jim McMahon as QBs who were taken to the SB by great Defenses and great Running Games.
-DJCahill

by SarasotaRanger on Aug 19, 2008 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Broken clock and so on and so forth...

Though to be honest I don’t know if I’d do Kinsler for Price.

I’d have to take a closer look at Price.

I was just throwing it out there considering Cowlishaw’s “Kinsler for pitching” sentimonies.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Not worth it. Yes, Price is going ot become a star, but lets take Kinsler out of this lineup for the rest of the year and see how this offense responds. They seemed to do all right last night, but theres still 6 more weeks to go.

"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno

LSB facebook group ---->>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33345329288

by hinduplaya on Aug 19, 2008 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you feel Price is going to become a star, don't you have to make that trade?

Would you rather have a star number one starter and German Duran at 2b, or a star 2b and Matt Harrison/Luis Mendoza-types starting 1/5 of your games?

The only holdup to me is that David Price might not be a star.

If I was sure he was gonna be an ace, then I’d make that trade and try to avoid watching the Rays on TV cause the thought of Kinz wearing their uni makes me want to cry.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yes

you have to, even though it would hurt really bad.

Trades to land a front rotation starter are gonna hurt bad, we ain’t getting one by packaging a bunch of our spare parts.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh, speaking of which...

would you rather roll into ’09 with Kinsler/Volquez or with Hambone/Price?

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the latter

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

even if the lineup does a little worse, Price will have more of a positive effect

besides we have people in the minors who can come up and perform

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Josey

For once, we’re in total agreement.

"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky

by RCCook on Aug 19, 2008 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Counteroffer

With something like Andrus+. But I wouldn’t trade Kinsler unless I was confident someone like German Duran could replace at least 3/4 of his production, and at this point that’s not the case.

A Lonestar in California

We need to hire Chuck Norris to kick the ass of any Ranger fan caught booing one of our young pitchers at the RBiA.

by lonestarJon on Aug 19, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the Rays is willing to trade Price at all

It will be for someone like Kinsler or Hamilton; not other prospects.

by Telegraph on Aug 19, 2008 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

It’s honestly a deal I think both teams would have real trouble pulling the trigger on, but it’s semi-feasible on both ends (the Rays would get a huge boost for the playoff run and in the future and we’d get a future ACE) and an interesting hypothetical for us Rangers fans.

It gives us the young potential ACE we need and we have many options in the MIF if we lose Kinz. We could swing Franchise Face back to 2b when Andrus is ready or maybe Duran, Vallejo or Lemon could slot in there full time eventually.

As much as I heart Ian Kinsler super hard, the thought of Price/Neftali in ’10 is making my boxers feel mighty tight.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can certainly see how it would make sense

For somebody like Price, but I’m just not willing to give up the guy who could be the class of AL 2B in another year or two (if he’s not the class of AL 2B already that is) for him. Honestly, if I’m trading Kinsler I’m gonna be super, super greedy – I want somebody like Scott Kazmir in return.

A Lonestar in California

We need to hire Chuck Norris to kick the ass of any Ranger fan caught booing one of our young pitchers at the RBiA.

by lonestarJon on Aug 19, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well he already is the class of AL 2b

and Kazmir is going freaking nowhere, so that’s just silly talk. May as well say you want Josh Beckett and/or Brandon Webb.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I thought this was all just silly talk really

Because Price is going freaking nowhere himself.

I’m just saying, as much as I’d love to have somebody like Price, I don’t think he’s worth Kinsler (not straight up anyway).

A Lonestar in California

We need to hire Chuck Norris to kick the ass of any Ranger fan caught booing one of our young pitchers at the RBiA.

by lonestarJon on Aug 19, 2008 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It is silly talk

but at least the thought of them giving up Price had a logical anchor in that it’d give them a huge boost for the rest of the season without giving up anything that had helped them get to this point in the first place.

Kazmir doesn’t make any sense even as a crazy Ranger fan’s hypothetical.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

some people would argue

that David Price projects to be just as good as Kazmir, and 6 years of Price (with 3 of those being at the minimum salary) is more valuable than 4 years of Kazmir at $40 million.

In fact, if we were trading Kinsler, I’d much rather have Price over Kazmir.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's a good point

Kazmir scares me long term. I know people’ve been scared of him for years and he just keeps on trucking, but still…

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would trade him for Price, not Kazmir

For Kazmir, I’d unload any or even all prospects, because you’ll need Kinsler (you’re going for “win now”). But for Price, you’re saying that you don’t expect to win in 2009 or even 2010, but the team’s future is so bright with the kids on the way, that adding a potential ace who’ll bloom by then is just what you need.

by JBImaknee on Aug 19, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"But for Price, you’re saying that you don’t expect to win in 2009 or even 2010"

how are you saying you dont want to win in 2009 or 2010? Price is ready for the big leagues right now and he is perfect for our park being a strikeout lefty.

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

when we struggle offensively, worry about hitting

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Price may eventually be

an ace but he’s not one right now.

You don’t deal a valuable property like Kinsler unless you KNOW you are getting an ace back.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 19, 2008 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jesus.

Where have you been the last few years? This is the first year we’ve had a great offense in several years.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

every year since 2000. we’ve been top 8 in the MLB in runs

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dude

Try to cut out the stream of conscious commenting. I just z’d through 18 of your comments. Filter some of it out, and combine others. There are enough comments on this blog as it is, I don’t need any extra of yours to sort through.

Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.

by TheBZA on Aug 19, 2008 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the guy asked me a question. i responded

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I chose

one of your many responses to respond to. Do you know what stream of consciousness means? In case you don’t I’ll simplify. Don’t respond with every little thing that comes through your head. Type something out, ask yourself “Does this contribute to the discussion”. If “yes” ask your self three or four more times. Make real sure it’s worth posting. These morning posts end up around 150-200 posts a day. Try not to make 1/4 of them yours.

Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.

by TheBZA on Aug 19, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

thanks for the advice!

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

in other words you are saying

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The Price for Kinsler talk is terrible

for the Rangers. You are trading the current MVP of the league for a prospect. No matter how good the prospect, you just don’t make that deal straight up. If Tampa Bay is calling and wanting Kinsler who is signed to a team friendly contract through 2012 and possibly 2013, they are going to have to pay for him.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Aug 19, 2008 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why?

You are talking about the worst pitching team in the league and the worst offensive team in the league. Kinsler has had an amazing offensive season. He is cheap and extremely valuable. If you could trade him for a package that makes you better, then you have to do it.

Also, you are stuck with MY for the next 5 years. Despite what everyone thinks of that, it is a fact and you have to plan accordingly. The place that he’s not going to kill you long term is playing second base. I think that he probably has three seasons left of being an above average defensive second baseman, where Kinsler, who may or may not improve, has been one of the worst second basemen in the league defensively.

I’m not saying that you should shop him, but its not near unthinkable to trade him. It actually makes some sense, when you can improve in two areas of your team.

"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08

by badradiorules on Aug 19, 2008 12:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I e-mailed TC and got a response:

I think maybe I misunderstood a little, but even so, the suggestion of trading Kinsler for something is just kind of uninformed, don’t you think? Anyways:

“I said the pitching had gotten so bad last week when they thought they were still sort of in the race that maybe only the desperate move of trading Kinsler was left as a remedy. i said it would have worked out badly. So will, most likely, any other trade of a hitter for pitcher. Teams don’t usually get the results the Reds got with Volquez for Hamilton.”

by FuturePants on Aug 19, 2008 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now that kinda makes sense

So why wasn’t it included in the article?

A Lonestar in California

We need to hire Chuck Norris to kick the ass of any Ranger fan caught booing one of our young pitchers at the RBiA.

by lonestarJon on Aug 19, 2008 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cowlishaw is a crappy writer

that’s why

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Aug 19, 2008 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Meanwhile

Bradley probably should have been on the DL at some point but hasn’t been. This is like a MASH unit.

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 19, 2008 10:24 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

25 punds lighter?

Holy shit.

That’s either athletic hyperbole, or he was a big fat fatty last year. Cause losing 25 pounds in a year is really, really tough if you’re not fat.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 10:35 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I had no idea he’d lost that much weight. Heck, maybe he can handle 3B.

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by Brett Perryman on Aug 19, 2008 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

if he could...

i would love to have a infield next year of Blalock of first, Kins at 2nd, Young at short, and Davis at 3rd. Then let Blalock go after next year, slide Davis back to first, Young to third, and in comes Elvis at short for 2010.

by erikj07 on Aug 19, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

or.....

if he’s good, keep him at third, move Elvis in at SS, ans let Smoak take over at 1st. I wonder what would be done with MY then…..

"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno

LSB facebook group ---->>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33345329288

by hinduplaya on Aug 19, 2008 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

DH?

Move him to second and Kinsler to a corner outfield spot?

That’s too far down the road to even worry about.

by N41D on Aug 19, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ya

I was leaning more along the lines of DH, but then again who knows what we have in Max

"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno

LSB facebook group ---->>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33345329288

by hinduplaya on Aug 19, 2008 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Pudge was able to do it

when he stopped taking roids.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Dark... Edgy... Cahill...

by Calvin Klein.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Would probably smell like

teen spirit…

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 19, 2008 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

CD

I think it’s far more likely Chris Davis gets traded for pitching, especially in any potential Greinke trade. He’s younger, under team control for longer, and cheaper.

Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!

by DerekSTheRed on Aug 19, 2008 10:54 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Greinke

Can someone explain the fascination with this guy? His FIP is 3.81, which is certainly a lot better than anybody we have, but is 2 years of him worth as much as 6 years of Chris Davis? Maybe, but if you have to add any pitching to Davis, then it makes no sense.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I heart Grink

for exactly the reasons you mention: He’s an above average pitcher who’d be light years better than anything we have. A good sloid #2 starter is nothing to sneeze at.

But I don’t think I’d deal CD for him.

If I’m dealing CD I want someone better and/or under team control for longer.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Davis for Greinke

would make some sense, but I’m sure the Royals would want at least one high end pitching prospect as well, and at that point it is just too much to give up.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

I’m not saying we should do that, just that Davis would be what the Royals ask for in return. They need help at 1b and 3b and Davis would give them that. I don’t think they move him for less then Davis or Salty plus a pitching prospect.

Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!

by DerekSTheRed on Aug 19, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

They have Gordon at 3b

and Billy Butler is capable of playing 1b until Handsome Hosmer is ready to win like 7 MVP’s in a row.

But, yah, they’d have to seriously consider Davis for Grink.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Gordon is not good at 3b

Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!

by DerekSTheRed on Aug 19, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Defensively?

Cause the bat will come around.

And he’s a ton better with the glove than CD is.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

he's a top 5 pick

by the royals, at the 3rd base spot.

the guy isnt going anywhere. he is their 3b for the next 4+ seasons

"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM

by Jayslick on Aug 19, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

really?

yeah, and George Brett sucked too…

"For those booing me. Take that, beeep." - Ramon Vazquez

by 8legs2fangs on Aug 19, 2008 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think so

They may want someone mid-range, but they won’t demand a Holland or similar quality. If I’m the Royals, I strongly consider accepting the straight up offer. The Royals need good bats badly – a guy like Davis makes a lot of sense for them, and he’s proven at the major league level.

Chris Davis has one of the highest values of any position player prospect in the major leagues right now. He’s not getting a comparable pitcher back one-for-one, but a guy two years from FA he should.

by JBImaknee on Aug 19, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmn

Then allow me to throw this at the wall: Davis for Price? Would TB do it?

A Lonestar in California

We need to hire Chuck Norris to kick the ass of any Ranger fan caught booing one of our young pitchers at the RBiA.

by lonestarJon on Aug 19, 2008 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No they wouldn't

I don’t think they’d have done Kinsler for Price, but at least that would’ve given them a huge boost for this pennant race, wheras Davis is a lesser known quantity who’s long term value us much lower than Price’s.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

no way....

first off they have pena at first base and Price is much more valuable than Davis alone even with the fact that Davis’ value is at an all time high right now

by erikj07 on Aug 19, 2008 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If the Rangers assumed Pena's contract

and sent back a guy like Holland as well, then the Rays may consider it. But I don’t really see why they should (they’re going to win a lot in the next few years regardless of whether they make that deal)

by JBImaknee on Aug 19, 2008 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Greinke

Strikeout pitcher (9% of his pitches are swinging strike, and 21% of batters struck out this year) with reasonable command (64.1% strikes, 7% of batters walk), and his fly ball tendencies has really came down this year (26.9% fly ball). He has good stuff to back all of this up.

There are a few questions with him though: 1) He has some sort of a line-drive tendency and surrender a bit more than league average. 2) If you believe that this season is a true indicator of his future performance (namely, maintaining or lowering the line drive and fly ball percentages). 3) His HR ratio is high, so it’s even more important that he keeps the flyball rates down.

He is a good pitcher, no doubt. The main problem is that the Royals will want a lot for him. Neither their pitching nor hitting is in an admirable situation, and they won’t give away the best player on their team for anything less than a bounty.

by Telegraph on Aug 19, 2008 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the greinke talk makes me wanna puke

hey guys, i know this guy only has 2 seasons left on his contract, and hasnt ever been an Inning eater, and missed a season nuts, but i say we give up 2+ premium prospects for him.

"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM

by Jayslick on Aug 19, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

However, the pitching issue is going to be difficult to solve. If you want to trade your prospects for pitchers, you’ll either want young pitchers who are already above average with some more room to improve, or you trade prospects for prospects (i.e. Matt Garza et al.) Unfortunately, most pitchers who fit the former profile are not available (they are the most valuable commodity out there), and the latter carry huge risks. If someone like Greinke is available at a reasonable cost, the option needs to be explored.

The other options are obviously to grow pitchers in house like we are doing, or get them through FA. The FA market is intriguing this season, but the only three starting pitchers I’d look at are Sabathia, Sheets, and Burnett. Unfortunately, I think all three of them will demand ridiculous contracts and there will be teams who are willing to cater to them. Long term contracts to either Sheets or Burnett will make me want to puke continuously and incessantly.

Which brings me back to the Greinke situation. He is decidedly no ace, but he is a solid pitcher. There is nothing particularly fluky about this season, thus no reason to expect a regression. Dude is still young and has some upside left, and I’d be willing to talk two very good prospects. Problem is that KC will want more than that.

Personally, I’d first look at the prospects for prospects route, but I am not sure how much patience this organization still has left.

by Telegraph on Aug 19, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I remember

listening to Rangers replay after one of the games and Ogolick (dont know how to spell his name) said the Mariners asked for Davis in return for Ibanez. That was the funniest thing I had heard in a long time…..

"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno

LSB facebook group ---->>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33345329288

by hinduplaya on Aug 19, 2008 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow, no wonder they didnt get any deals done

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Holy crap

they are nuts. Worst run organization in baseball right now, or damn close to Nats and Astros.

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 19, 2008 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nah

It’s what teams do when they’re asking for prospects.

Start high, then meet somewhere in the middle.

If they asked for Davis then refused to move off of him, then that’s nuts. If they asked for him initially just to see how the Rangers would react, well, that’s how it should be done, imo.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, but in this case

how’d that trade deadline work out for them? I think they forgot the part about meeting somewhere in the middle.

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 19, 2008 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The M's are screwy, I'll give you that

Wonder if they’ll be looking to move Bedard this winter and, if so, what sort of package they’d be looking to snag for him.

I don’t think he’d be the greatest fit here due to his contract status and the fact that he’s still likely to be overrated as hell off of his ‘07 season, but he’s a pretty good pitcher and we’re always looking for one of those.

Wonder what it’d take to get him out of Seattle and what it’d take to sign him to an extension. I’m guessing way too much on both counts.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm guessing

too expensive in prospects to a division rival, and too much of a pussy whiner to pay that much for.

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 19, 2008 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

t ball calling someone a pussy whiner.

Now that’s gold right there.

I do wonder what Seattle will do with him, though. He’s going to be a tradable commodity this winter, but will they hold on to him just to avoid looking like they got burned like toast at the waffle house in the Baltimore deal, or will they actually do the smart thing and try to deal him for a young stud who can help them down the road?

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

IMO Kinsler & Hamilton = Untouchable

Those two represent the cornerstones of this franchise for the next 5-8 years. Even if you think that Price is going to be an ace I don’t see how you can pull the trigger on a Kinsler for Price swap. It does make sense on paper to an extent but I just don’t think you can do that type of trade. The more likely scenario is that we unload a catcher like Salty plus a prospect or two for a Zach Greinkie or Edwin Jackson type and sign a Sheets or Burnett in FA. I personally feel Chris Davis is close to untouchable one reason being he is the type of player who we as a franchise need around. How many guys out there dreamed of playing for this team and not the Cubs, Yankees, or Sox? Tough to stomach as a fan to get rid of that type of masher who actually wants to have a career here even if it is for a young starter. Cowlishaw’s article is overall offbase because there are many options out there to get some pitching for next year without going crazy and trading Kinsler and/or paying CC a 10 year, 200 million dollar contract. I wouldn’t be mad about a Sheets, Greinkie/Jackson, BMac, Padilla, Millwood rotation going into 09 by giving up say Salty, Kiker, Beltre combo for the solid young #2 starter who would be under control for 2+ years.

by erikj07 on Aug 19, 2008 11:14 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

If we traded Salty/Kiker/Beltre for Edwin Jackson

I’d drive to DFW and cut JD’s heart out with a spoon.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

why a spoon?

[soft toss lob]

I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA

by ivysafety39 on Aug 19, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cause it'll hurt more!

[knock it out of the park]

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

lol

Robin Hood, right??

by Baseball North on Aug 19, 2008 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

love it dirk!!!

"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM

by Jayslick on Aug 19, 2008 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and its outta here!!!!

[puts hands around mouoth and mimics roar of crowd]

I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA

by ivysafety39 on Aug 19, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

well....

a solid young ML ready #2 type ain’t coming to DFW for free. What package would you give up for Greinke and/or Jackson. I would probably give up that package for him or Grienkie

by erikj07 on Aug 19, 2008 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Greinke and Edwin Jackson

do not have similar value.

I’d like to have either one, but you seem to think of the two of them as interchangable, and that isn’t the case.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

who do you think is...

more valuable then? I wouldn’t consider them interchangeable, I’m just saying that a package along those lines would get a deal done. Jackson would be under control for longer, which is a major plus IMO. I don’t like the aspect of giving up a ton for 2 years of Grienkie

by erikj07 on Aug 19, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jackson's results this year are rather fluky

his peripherals weren’t that great the last time I checked them and overall I just think his control is too shitty to be this good long term.

Grienke >>>> Jackson, even with the extra year of team control factored in.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jackson's A Tease

Jackson is so odd. He’s got thunderous stuff yet his history is a picture of inconsistency.

Greinke is way more valuable than Jackson. There’s no contest.

by Mister Naxal on Aug 19, 2008 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

both are guys that scream, "you'll be sorry!!!" the minute you trade for them

they both are massive teases

"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM

by Jayslick on Aug 19, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Edwin is gonna be a breakout pitcher next year

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

EJAx scares me...

Hes getting by on Smoke and Mirrors at this point.

3.9 BB per 9, 5.33 K per 9, exactly 1 on GB/FB, Whip of 1.43 with a HR per 9 of 1.13

So,he has an ERA of 3.97, he has a FIP of 4.87.

Just another example of how decent defense can prop up an average pitcher

by laxtonto on Aug 19, 2008 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

nail on the head

his peripherals show he’s been lucky this year. If they’re smart they’ll sell high on him this winter.

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 19, 2008 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wonder how many years in a row ive heard that?

"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM

by Jayslick on Aug 19, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Has to be

5 or 6. I remember Jackson from trade scenarios of at least a half decade ago with the Dodgers.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

hes 24 years old...

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Concur

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Aug 19, 2008 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Jackson

is a #5 at best in a good rotation. Granted, he would probably come in here and be the #2 after Padilla if the rotation were to remain the same going into next year. But he’s honestly not that good.

"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno

LSB facebook group ---->>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33345329288

by hinduplaya on Aug 19, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If you know David Price is an ace for the next 10 years...

You trade anybody on this roster for him with the exception of Hamilton.

by N41D on Aug 19, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Stop The Trades!

PLEASE! Kinsler is going nowhere! Hamilton? Are you people kidding? We don’t need more trades. We need patience. We need to stick to the longer term plan. The idea is: draft, develop, wait. Draft, develop, wait. Let JD fill some holes with smaller moves (which he’s good at). We don’t need to trade our best stuff for someone else’s best. It rarely works that way. Patience. Patience. Throw 10 against the wall in Spring Training. Keep at it.

by 3Bagger on Aug 19, 2008 11:22 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

as long as we dont trade any pitching (except mendoza) then im OK with all of the trade talk

Kinsler could get us a lot of pitching and we have plenty of guys in the minors who could play there.

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

These trade discussions never cease to amaze me.

It has always fascinated me how much more valuable everyone else’s pieces are than ours. It is thinking like that which ends up resulting in giving up your farm system for a single player—just ask the Braves.

I’d rather sit still and be patient than to give up a Kinsler, Hamilton, or Davis for a pitcher with no major league experience. Of course, I’m less prone to think of any minor league pitcher as the next dominant ML pitcher because they haven’t proved they can play at that level yet. Giving up a very good known commodity for the potential that a prospect may turn out to be very good is a fantastic way to end up in the cellar year after year.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 11:28 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

as opposed to the fantastic way

that we end up with the worst ERA in the league every year?

The team isn’t going to show any marked improvement until the rotation shows marked improvement. So the choices seem to be sit tight and wait a couple of years and see if any of our top pitching prospects turn out to be legit major leaguers, or make some moves to bring in pitching.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah but....

i think w/ our farm we have the depth to bring in a solid young ML ready pitcher without having to give up one of Kinsler, Hamilton, or Davis. Those three shouldn’t be going anywhere. We have the prospects, its just a matter of whether or not we are willing to move them to get the pitching now as opposed to waiting for our youngsters to pan out

by erikj07 on Aug 19, 2008 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So you would decimate our ML offense for an unproven "potential" ...

front end of the rotation starter? Really? There is a reason some players are prospects … it is because they haven’t done it yet at the ML level. You should never trade away a proven ML commodity for a prospect in a 1 for 1 deal. That is what is being suggested up the the thread a ways for this Tampa Bay phenom. That’s just silly.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that losing Kinsler or Davis

would decimate our offense. And haven’t you figured out what the best offense in the league coupled with the worst pitching in the league gets you? A losing record, that’s what.

As I said above, we can sit tight for the next couple of years and wait to see if our brightest pitching prospects pan out and just try and stomach a couple more seasons of watching a top offense coupled with a shitty rotation. Or we can try to get some pitching in here. I don’t understand why any Ranger fan would be so afraid of shaking up a team that hasn’t been any good in a very long time, it’s not like we are breaking up the ‘27 Yankees – this is a team that has had the same problem for at least a decade. Any ideas to solve this long standing problem should be considered, don’t ya think?

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're right. Guys with .900+ OPS performance are easy to replace.

We’ll never miss that offensive contribution. And giving it up for a single pitcher that pitches once every five days will be what finally gets us over the top (assuming he doesn’t flame out at the ML level).

Please tell me you don’t really believe what you’re saying.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

couple of questions

1. do you think that our starting pitching needs to drastically improve?

2. if so, how do you propose that we go about making that improvement?

The tone of your posts seems to suggest that you are perfectly happy with a team that leads the league in both runs scored and runs allowed. Surely that isn’t the case, is it?

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Couple of answers.

1) Of course not. I think our pitching is great. (This is sarcasm, in case you missed it.)

2) We can make moves for young, good pitching without using Kins, Hambone, or Davis. We probably can’t land an ace, but we don’t need a single ace and we sure as hell don’t need to lose one of those guys for an unproven commodity. I understand you have to give value to get value, but there is no single move that’s going to make us have a great staff going forward. We’re better off with a staff full of #3’s than a #1 and a bunch of fodder.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i guarantee you

that if we got a real ACE in here, the other pitchers would perform better

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the only...

…way i see that is if because there is a stabilizing force in the rotation then everyone isn’t shuffled constantly, then yeah, i could see him making the “other pitchers… perform better”… but don’t for a second think that the other pitchers will rise to the excellence of some young ace by will and awe…. that kinda stuff only happens in disney movies…

I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA

by ivysafety39 on Aug 19, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

agreed

What about getting James Shields?

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed....

I can’t fathom the fact that people on this blog legitimately feel like we can’t land a solid young pitcher without giving up one of Davis, Hamilton, or Kinsler. We have argueably the deepest farm system in the majors. If we are serious about landing a proven young ML ready pitcher, then we no doubt have the PROSPECTS to land one.

by erikj07 on Aug 19, 2008 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The problem is

The teams who we would be getting these sloid young pitchers from would be demanding one of those three players. I highly doubt JD would call up a team and automatically offer any of those players. But thats what the other teams would want. Just like we were saying at the deadline this year we need ML ready players back in a trade other teams feel the same. Unless you target a team in complete rebuild but if they are in that mode I highly doubt they would part with a top young pitcher. If they did that player would only be a couple years away from FA anyway. You don’t get 4+ years of top quality young pitching for A ball guys. It takes ML ready talent to get that.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

IF our offense ever struggles worry about it, but it will always be good because of the talent and rudy

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ga-greed

i dunno why, but i feel like the older i get, the less convinced i am that the next sure thing is actually gonna be the next sure thing… mark prior’s delivery was spoken of as perfect, i remember one ESPN talking head who should remain nameless saying priors delivery “seems effortless and should keep his arm healthy for years”… i’m with athos, stay the course, don’t gt ahead of ourselves and try and win when we know its not in the cards, and spend on good prospects and development…

I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA

by ivysafety39 on Aug 19, 2008 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

All other things aside

why would a sports hernia in August keep you from being traded in December or January?

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by Brett Perryman on Aug 19, 2008 11:39 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

yeah...

its not like he tore his ACL to shreds. That article was just not logical in many ways, that being one of the reasons. As if Cowlishaw is implying a sports hernia is going to derail his career… Absurd

by erikj07 on Aug 19, 2008 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It shouldn't.

The fact that he’s the best second baseman in the league and one of the best overall players in the league who is locked up long-term on a team-friendly deal should be what keeps him from getting traded for anybody, but especially a single prospect.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

Like I said, everything else aside…

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by Brett Perryman on Aug 19, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point was more for the ears of some other guys, Z.

You just offered me an opportunity to make it.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Aaron Harang

wonder what it would take to get the Reds to deal him?

He’s had a horrible year, and injury problems, and he is owed 23 million over the next couple years with an option in 2011.

If we take that entire contract and give them Salty, does that even tempt them?

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 12:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It doesn't even tempt me.

I wouldn’t touch Aaron Harang with a ten-foot pole.

"Either we need to re-calibrate our rectangle, or Alfonzo Marquez is not having a good night." - Josh Lewin

by utlonghorn24 on Aug 19, 2008 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

From what i hea from the Reds fans i know

its not injury related, its mechanical.

I would still rather take Bailey,but if they just want to dump him, it would be worth a shot

by laxtonto on Aug 19, 2008 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

From Todays AA BA Prospect Daily Dish

Prospect Nuggets

Lefthander Derek Holland’s (Rangers) ascent in prospect status continued yesterday. The Frisco righthander allowed just one run and three hits in six innings yesterday, walking one and striking out seven. Holland, 21, began the year in the low Class A Midwest League before promotions to high Class A and Double-A. Between the three levels, Holland has a composite 2.40 ERA in 138 2/3 innings with 145 strikeouts and 36 walks …

by laxtonto on Aug 19, 2008 12:20 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

"the frisco righthander"??

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The guys BA has doing daily updats this season

are numnuts.

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by Brett Perryman on Aug 19, 2008 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

numbnuts?

I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA

by ivysafety39 on Aug 19, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I prefer to misspell it, seems funnier

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by Brett Perryman on Aug 19, 2008 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

If they trade Ian

then i am done with this team for good, that would be the most ignorant trade in the history of a team who has made many ignorant trades over the years, i am a big fan of MY but i would rather see him traded then Ian (not that i would want either gone) i would never trade a franchise player in his prime like Ian is now, for any pitcher when we are supposed to be developing pitchers in the miner leagues

by TRFAN on Aug 19, 2008 12:44 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I would welcome....

a Michael Young trade if we could find a team to dump his absurd salary on. Kinsler is a completely different situation, however. Young is already in decline and will have to move off of SS ASAP if our sinkerball pitching philosophy is going to go anywhere due to the fact that he has the range of a turtle. Kinsler is one of the top players in the game going into his prime who is locked up for years to come. No comparison btwn the two players.

by erikj07 on Aug 19, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comparison

Young would have to be given away and we couldn’t get anything of value back for him wheras Kinsler could be traded away for a top flight young ML ready top of the rotation pitcher.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

can MY...

can FOTF be a throw in? maybe we still have a PTBNL hanging on some old trade that we can use to get rid of that growing albatross of a salary…

I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA

by ivysafety39 on Aug 19, 2008 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's done a fine job

leading during his tenure. Playoff team before he showed up, 8 years of 3rd and 4th place finishes since he has shown up.

Exactly how valuable are his leadership skills, again?

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

are you seriously blaming the 3rd and 4th place finishes on him?

you have to be a fucking idiot to think that. HAVE YOU EVEN SEEN THE PITCHING ROTATIONS WE HAVE HAD IN THE LAST 8 YEARS? our best pitcher was probably John fucking Thomson. if you didnt know michael young is a shortstop and does NOT pitch, how can he be expected to lead the pitching when hes not a pitcher and just about every pitcher has sucked.

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What is the value of his leadership

if the team always loses? It would appear not to have a lot of value.

Maybe, instead of wasting money on folks for their “leadership”, we could spend money getting more folks who can play baseball, rather than grossly overpaying a marginally above average SS because he is such a great “leader”.

One of the reasons the pitching has sucked, is because it has absolute dogshit infield defense behind it.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still maintain that you caught MY humping your mom ...

or committing some other viciousness against you. Your hatred of the player is just too strong otherwise.

I wonder if they have player/fan counseling available to rectify such things?

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still maintain

that you service MY nightly. Your love affair with him is just unnatural.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Although ...

I’ll bet I’ve said a lot more negative about MY this season than you have said positive, so I can claim a slightly higher level of objectivity.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

How much positive

is there to say about a no-range, ~100 OPS+ declining SS that will be paid 5/80? Its a bad contract that is yet another black mark on JD’s resume. The fact that you are finally saying negative things means that reality is starting to slowly seep in. That this is his 3rd straight year of decline since his age 28 season shouldn’t really be a surprise to anyone, let alone JD.

Hell, you even objected at the beginning of the year when folks had novel thoughts like Kinsler and Hamilton would likely be better hitters than MY this year.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, for starters, the lack of range crap is just that ...

crap. There is a perception out there that because Young doesn’t dive every time a ball is hit in the hole that he has no range. That’s pure bull.

I’ve been critical of his bat this season because he continues to transform into a slap hitter, which is not good in my opinion. And I never said he’d be better than Hambone. Ever. And if you will recall, the argument between he and Kins was who was the better hitter last season. And as I recall, I made the caveat that I thought Kins would develop into a better hitter than Young—which I am glad to be correct on. I don’t mind that you disagree with me about Young’s value, but let’s cut out the attempts to win the argument by crediting me with positions I have never taken. As good a debater as you are, that shit ought to be beneath you.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Young

Few seem to think he’ll be a SS for long.

3B might be a real good fit, especially with the present depth chart at the position. He’s got the famously good arm. That along might deal with the first two or even three years of his extension.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Aug 19, 2008 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

heh

Aikman and Bradshaw?

Please. They are in the same league as Trent Dilfer and Jim McMahon as QBs who were taken to the SB by great Defenses and great Running Games.
-DJCahill

by SarasotaRanger on Aug 19, 2008 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

he just hates good hitters

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I love great hitters

like Milton Bradley, Ian Kinsler, and Josh Hamilton.

Michael Young is an above average hitter. His OPS+ will be right around 100-110 where it usually is, and he might break a 750 OPS if he is lucky. He isn’t going to be worth close to what he will be paid for the next 5 years, and if the Rangers could trade him and his contract for the next 5 years for a AA prospect, they’d be better off.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

but realistically

i dont see any way they can move him without agreeing to subsidize a health portion of that 80 mil.

by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Aug 19, 2008 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

they dont have him JUST for his leadership

he bats .300 every year and he is 2nd in SS fielding percentage this year. besides its not like we could sign any pitcher in free agency. once agan you have to be an idiot if you think his defense is dog shit. do you even know a thing about baseball

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He has the range

of a toe sloth. He catches them if they are right at him, otherwise, it’s a single.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

how often does range become a factor? how often is there a routine play?

and defense doesnt outweigh hitting or else joey gathright would be an all-star

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree

with most of your points on MY. I also agree that it is likely that in two or three years he will have the “range of a toe sloth.” However, his current lack of range is highly overrated by most here. He is actually 5th in the AL in OOZ and has nine more than Ian “I know he makes a ton of errors, but he makes up for it with his great range” Kinsler, who is toward the bottom of the league in range.

"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08

by badradiorules on Aug 19, 2008 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think that pretty much

the entire infield lacks range, and it was even worse when Blalock was at 3B. I also think OOZ is just another in a long line of fairly weak statistical concepts.

 I think our IF defense probably contributes .25-1.00 ERA to our pitchers as a whole. They are that bad, as a group. I think eventually Kinsler ends up in CoF, and MY moves to 3B, which will help. However, as long as its Kinsler/Young up the middle, I can’t see our IF defense even being average.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

a debate between cahill, badradiorules and steal home

i dunno whether to laugh or cry

"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM

by Jayslick on Aug 19, 2008 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

cry

be very sad

Aikman and Bradshaw?

Please. They are in the same league as Trent Dilfer and Jim McMahon as QBs who were taken to the SB by great Defenses and great Running Games.
-DJCahill

by SarasotaRanger on Aug 19, 2008 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What is your problem?

"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08

by badradiorules on Aug 19, 2008 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Your right

They are going to have to be really good at everything else to ever be good with either of those guys up the middle. I just find it funny that MY takes flack everyday on here for being awful defensively and you rarely hear about how bad Kinsler is.

"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08

by badradiorules on Aug 19, 2008 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kinsler & Young

Bob Sturm had a study someone had done of Kinsler’s range on his website a couple weeks back- the gist of it was that Kinsler gets to an extra ball a game over a league-average second baseman.

"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky

by RCCook on Aug 19, 2008 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Except

OOZ/BIZ/RZR says not so much. Of course, you can get defensive stats to say anything if you look hard enough.

I watch Rangers games, and other baseball games, and I can definitely believe that the Texas Rangers are the 2nd worst team in baseball in defensive efficiency. I believe the play of the MIF is a big part of that.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 19, 2008 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also

They used stats from the last two years. He has really regressed this year.

"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08

by badradiorules on Aug 19, 2008 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

This made me laugh:
do you even know a thing about baseball

Something about a pot and a kettle leaps to mind ….

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not a statement that you want to make

while at the same time touting the merits of someone’s fielding percentage.

"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08

by badradiorules on Aug 19, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Idiot

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 19, 2008 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

idiot

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 19, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for the valuable insight

As always.

Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.

by TheBZA on Aug 19, 2008 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

if they traded Kinsler for an ace and you are still mad

then you’re a kinsler fan not a Ranger fan. We have people in the minors who can come up and replace Kinsler even though they wont do what he does, they’ll be solid. Right now we dont have anyone in the minors who can come up and pitch good so we have to get a frontline starter until the A/AA talent gets up here.

I really hope we trade away one of our hitters and get a frontline starter, even if its hamilton

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 19, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Who?

The Rangers have someone in the minors who can come up and be an above-average hitter at second base right now? I’m curious to know who that is.

"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky

by RCCook on Aug 19, 2008 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You seriously would turn down...

a guy who is undefeated with an ERA below 2 in his first pro season that you would have for 6+ seasons under team control for Kinsler when you have Andrus, Vallejo and Lemon in the minors at a MIF position?

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

and Duran

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes

I would turn that down. Price is a prospect, who has ace potential. The key word there being “potential.” He could just as easily be another Mark Prior.

If it’s Kinsler for an established ace- a bonafide 200-inning, 3.30 ERA starter who’s already got several major-league seasons under his belt, then I might make that deal.

Looking at it from another viewpoint- Neftali Feliz was #12 on Baseball America’s mid-season top 25, so he’s in Price’s class as a prospect. If you were the Marlins, would you deal Dan Uggla for Feliz straight up? Or if you were the Phillies, would you deal Utley for Feliz straight up?

Because that’s pretty much what you’re talking about doing. Not exactly, but very close.

"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky

by RCCook on Aug 19, 2008 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Feliz/Price

One has pitched a handful of games in AA and doesn’t look to be in the bigs before mid year next year at the very earliest. The other was a college stud who has flown through the minors with beyond impressive results and will be a September callup this year.

As to your trade ideas I think right now no simply because Feliz is not ML ready. Ask again next year when Feliz is knocking on the door and yes I think those teams absolutely make that deal. Thats the key. Price can come in and play right now. It would be stupid to trade away Kinsler for a guy we won’t see for a year or two. But if you can trade him for a guy who immediately comes in and plays and has that stuff and potential then you do it in a heartbeat. 2B can be replaced fairly easily. I don’t care about his offense because you can find that at other positions. Legit #1 pitchers do not grow on trees. If you have the chance to acquire one and all it costs you is one player I don’t care if that one player is really good you better do it. Now when you start talking 3 and 4 for 1 swaps then you can argue its too much to give up but 1 for 1 a 2B for a #1 starter is a no brainer

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Price/Kinsler

Price is a potential #1 right now. Not a “legitimate #1 starter.” He’s in the same class as Philip Hughes, Joba Chamberlain, Clay Buchholz, or Clayton Kershaw- all top pitching prospects who are as major-league ready as Price.

If you think Price can step into the Rangers’ rotation in 2009, and pitch 190-200 innings of 3.30 ERA ball, then I can see why you might do the deal. But I think it’s far more likely that he takes a couple seasons to get to that level, and in the meantime, you’re stuck with a 4.50-4.75 ERA pitcher adjusting to the bigs, while your offense has to make up the difference between Kinsler and someone like Duran or Arias.

"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky

by RCCook on Aug 19, 2008 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'll take a 4.50 ERA

in a kid who I have control of for 6 more years. If Kinsler was hitting in a run producing spot then I could possibly see an argument. But as a leadoff hitter his doubles and home runs are bonus. I’ll take a chance that I can find a leadoff hitter who comes close to Kinsler over a pitcher who comes close to Price.

And that 4.50 ERA would be the best on the staff right now fyi

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 5:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kinsler

Why does it matter where he bats in the order?

You’re not replacing a “leadoff hitter.” You’re trying to replace Kinsler’s entire contribution to the offense. It doesn’t matter where that contribution comes from- all nine spots in the lineup count towards overall run production. Kinsler has 105 RC and a .306 EQA this year. Know how many other leadoff hitters are at (or near) that level currently?

Two. Grady Sizemore and Jose Reyes.

So what you’re telling me is that you think the Rangers can find a Sizemore or Reyes more easily than they can find a pitcher who will produce at Price’s level, or at least at the level you think he’ll pitch at over the next few seasons.

Not to mention that Kinsler is under the Rangers’ control for four more years, five if they pick up his option. He’s an immensely valuable commodity, and I don’t trade him for anything less than an established front-of-the-rotation starter.

"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky

by RCCook on Aug 19, 2008 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kinsler

Im not discounting his great season. He has been amazing. But he is our leadoff hitter. He gets our offense started. And while it will be hard to find a player who hits the doubles and home runs Kinsler does it isn’t as hard to find a player who you can place at the top of your order and expect to get on base at a .350+ clip and steal some bases. That will jumpstart our offense the way Kinsler does. We can make up the power from other spots in the lineup.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Only 4 guys in MLB

can match both Kinsler’s .375 OBP and 26 steals.

Brian Roberts.
BJ Upton.
Grady Sizemore.
Hanley Ramirez.

That’s elite. When you consider Slugging % (Kinsler’s is .517) – the list drops to just Ramirez (.529) though Sizemore isn’t far behind (.514).

Both Sizemore and Ramirez were traded for Ace pitchers, but both were still prospects themselves.

There’s no way in hell the Indians or the Marlins would trade Sizemore/Ramirez for Price. It just wouldn’t happen.

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Aug 19, 2008 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kinsler

I am not arguing that Kinsler isn’t a great great player and having an elite season. But if you won’t trade him for a player of Prices ability and potential then you are crazy. I love Ian and it would kill me to see him in another teams uni. But if seeing that meant I also got to see Price for the next 6 years front our rotation while our other young pitchers come up thats a price I would be willing to pay. David Prices don’t come cheap and Kinsler is a high price to pay.

I would much rather have the combo of Price and Vallejo over the next several years than Kinsler and Harrison

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you think

the Indians would trade Sizemore for Price?

Do you think the Marlins would trade Ramirez for Price?

If the Rangers would be crazy to trade Kinsler for Price, that means 1 of 2 things…

Either, every other team in MLB is crazy for not trading their young superstar position players for Price…

Or, the Rays have ZERO intention of trading him.

I think both are equally likely.

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Aug 19, 2008 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes I do

As great as Sizemore is right now the Indians are going nowhere and I think would gladly trade Sizemore for Price. Especially if they have multiple nice prospects in the minors that can step in and play Sizemores position the same defensively if not better.

As for Florida thats a different situation. They have a plethora of young starting pitchers and they are in a pennant race. I think Price fits their philosophy though and it would be a trade they would probably make.

I agree the Rays have no intention of trading him.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well if you think they'd trade Sizemore

then there’s not much else to talk about.

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Aug 19, 2008 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Indians

They have pretty good pitching so while Price would be a definite upgrade over most if not all of their staff they don’t have the dire need for it that the Rangers do

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tell me one thing..

When was the last time a legit, young, MVP-type everyday player was traded while under team control for 4 years or more?

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Aug 19, 2008 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hambone?

Although, granted, he was a special case in a number of ways.

Though I suppose I could reply with When was the last time the previous year’s #1 overall pick and consensus #1 overall pitching prospect was traded?

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, that was the response I was going for

It was a special case for Hambone.

When I didn’t get a reply, I was going to throw the Price is #1 stuff…

The point I’m making is neither team is likely to make that trade…

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Aug 19, 2008 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Of course not

Pure for-fun speculation.

IF Tampa called, what would you do?

In reality neither GM would ever make that deal. You’d need balls the size of small immigrant children to trade either one of those guys straight up in a deal like that.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know...

I think, if I’m JD I make the deal if only because of how he’s gotten burned on pitching deals in the past.

But, if it was me….I don’t know. Yes, Price is a badass, but it’s a huge huge risk.

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Aug 19, 2008 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

no, it's not likely

but I have been following the conversation more as a dialogue on how different people value different assets and how to manage those assets in the particular situation of the Rangers. The specifics of Price and Kinsler aren’t likely at all, but they serve as a jumping off point for a more involved discussion, which this has been.

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

True

But, I think I was doing the same thing with my young-MVP-everyday player line of logic…

but whatever, no big deal.

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Aug 19, 2008 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ever hear of a guy named

Alex Rodriguez?

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

A bit different

When he’s making $20 Mill a year….

not the same thing really.

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Aug 19, 2008 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let the record state

Sizemore averages 160 games a season w/ career 125 OPS+ and is undoubtedly the better defensive player.

Kinsler averages 123 games a season w/ career 117 OPS+

Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.

by tricer on Aug 19, 2008 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Hmm ...

So a team would be crazy not to trade an MVP candidate for a guy that has never appeared in a major league game. If JD is seriously considering that and the “hey dumbass” alarm doesn’t go off in his head so loudly that his eyes wobble, then he has no business being a major league GM. I doubt you find a single GM that makes that deal from the Rangers standpoint.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 7:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Look

David Price is a special special talent. You don’t find players like him on the waiver wire in the winter. They come along very rarely. And while Ian Kinsler is also a very special player, his offense can be replaced whether it be by one player or a combo of multiple players in the lineup on a given night. You can’t all of a sudden turn a Eric Hurley or a Scott Feldman into a David Price. There is only one pitcher on the field but there are 9 players in the lineup.

Im not trying to advocate trading Ian let me make that very clear. But if Tampa called up and offered Price and wanted Kinsler straight up and we turned that down I would be upset.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yeesh.

Thank God JD is the GM and you’re not. If Price is such a special player, and everyone knows that, isn’t it kind of funny that he can’t get into TB’s rotation? He’s not good enough to force the issue with even their number 5? Really? Now that’s a special, can’t miss kind of player.

by Athos on Aug 19, 2008 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Aug 19, 2008 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

The guy has been a pro for barely a year. Hes slated for a September callup. Tampa is looking at this from a business standpoint. The longer they keep him down now the less they have to keep him down next year so they get that extra year of him under team control. Its called being smart.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 19, 2008 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

there is NO starting pitcher than can be traded for that i would

trade Kinsler for, trading one of your best core players for a player who starts once every 5 days (and who would likely either be untested in the bigs rookie, or would at best be a #3 type mlb tested starter) is crazy, and as to Michael Young, yes his skills are on the downhill side, he has likely peaked (2006) but even now he is still one of the best overall (Hitting, defense and clutch hitting) in the bigs at SS

by TRFAN on Aug 19, 2008 5:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think there are folks

who will have to concede that they would never do a deal to trade for frontline pitching, because the cost will be astronomical for a pitcher with no track record, unless the the pitcher is in his walk year, and then it will be high for a half/full year of a pitcher.

I think that is the big flaw in some folks “draft position players and trade for pitching” strategy.

What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage

by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 5:08 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Given the usual

trade proposals thrown out around here that shouldn’t be surprising. I think most have an entirely unrealistic idea about what a trade is and should be, and the cost of a player like that. Most here will be against any trade that isn’t a slam dunk, no brainer, the other team would have to be run by monkeys to make it, kind of deal.

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

MaxRam and Nelson Cruz

Anyone have an update on their status? Must be about time to return.

by chadallenfan on Aug 19, 2008 3:52 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think that Jason Cole

had an update on Max Ramirez getting ramped up with the AZL club imminently.

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by Brett Perryman on Aug 19, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nelson Cruz needs to get here as soon as possible

after he comes off of the DL, his right handed bat is very much needed, give the guy one more shot at the bigs with the Rangers, if he is ever going to be ready it is now.

by TRFAN on Aug 19, 2008 5:09 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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