OT: McCain is going to win
I dont even know if OT is allowed here anymore, but I'm going old school!
Anyways, yeah, title.
McCain takes 5 point lead in reuters poll:
http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKN1948672420080820
The money race..liberal media has told is it's a massive advantage for Obama. Oops, looks like they were doing what they do best, lie:
http://blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/08/19/the-2008-money-race-stil-closer-than-you-think.aspx
Next we have real clear politics electoral map with no toss up states, which for the first time shows McCain +10
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=10
Now lets touch on the polls most of which would give Obama a 2 to 6 point lead..lets just say I do not trust them. Due to Obama being black and the supposed public tendency to support a black candidate when polled but not in actuality because of fear of being perceived as racist, and the usual liberal bias in the polls run by the liberal media. Combine these two and at any given time I feel McCain is sitting with several points in hand not reflected in polls.
Then we get to the factor of it all comes down to a few swing states, Ohio, Florida, Pennslyvania, Virginia, Colorado, and Michigan. I feel that due to Hillary Clinton running very well in these states, McCain has an edge there.
Finally I feel like Obama is not very bright, therefore his campaign, probably run by a bunch of affirmative action unqualified minorities, has made mistep after mistep, compared to a savvy McCain campaign, and I feel confident that will continue. Latest case in point, Obamas veep frontrunners. As I understand it, Joe Biden and Katherine Sebelius. All I can say to that is..wtf? Joe Biden, no, really?
6 recs |
592 comments
Comments
Either McCain or Obama
will be a monumental improvement over the current administration. I haven’t decided which one to vote for yet, but I’ll be walking out of the voting booth with a smile either way. The Bush years have been an unrelenting disaster on nearly every issue, large and small.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 7:55 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That comment really annoys me
it is just a waste of space…you didn’t really provide anything worthwhile to the thread. And you had to start it off too.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see
How that’s a waste of space. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess tball just showed more neutrality than anyone else in this thread will (myself included).
Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.
by TheBZA on Aug 20, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know
that’s why it bothers me…I like controversy.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unlike most folks
I am really waiting to read the candidates’ policy proposals and positions before voting. I haven’t devoted the time to it yet, that’s why I’m not advocating one or the other right now.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was teasing around with you
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
candidates
Their proposals will be full of money we don’t have and can’t afford…
"The rich think they are privileged so rules don't apply to them, and the poor think they're entitled and so rules don't apply to them." The rest of us are screwed.
by A.Medina on Aug 20, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i liked it better...
… when you where at the bottom of the tank shark.
typical sharky post… no logic, only goes with the stories that back his OPINION, and is completely contrived out of typical “i only see the facts i like” conservatives.
Finally I feel like Obama is not very bright
now i ask, WTF? Seriously?…
I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA
by ivysafety39 on Aug 20, 2008 8:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
If you’re not going to add to the conversation with your own educated opinions or conclusions, then don’t post a bulletin. It’s simple.
And no, “Finally I feel like Obama is not very bright, therefore his campaign, probably run by a bunch of affirmative action unqualified minorities, has made mistep after mistep” does not count as an educated or unbiased conclusion.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its sharky
its a given that some stuff is gonna be kind of out there…lol
is anyone gonna read obama nation? or have they read it?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope, not planning too
The guy who wrote it is about as unbiased as Sharky.
All the book does is preach to the choir.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i realize how bad this sounds
but i kind of agree with something o’reilly said…
if obama didnt HELP corsi with the book i wouldnt be interested.
as it is with MOST political books you have to take it with a grain of salt but im interested in reading it…and of course its preaching to the right/middle…the goal of a book is to make money (too bad pelosi’s book has been sucking it up haha)
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 8:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Not very bright"
I don’t think Obama handled himself last week in the pseudo-debate very well at all.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, his problem
may be that he’s too smart and tries too hard to answer questions thoughtfully. In a campaign, short, concise answers are best. He needs to refine his thoughts and boil them down to quicker answers. That’s just a good principle for writing and speaking, and it’s definitely good campaigning in the tv age.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey i agree (even as a conservative) with this statement a LOT
He needs to refine his thoughts and boil them down to quicker answers
he needs to have better, more concise answers.
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then that would be mean he isn't smart
if he was too smart he would realize such a simplistic solution and exercise it.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope
It means he’s being too cerebral about it. Over-thinking. He needs to dumb things down.
Two statements below, roughly paraphrased from Rick Warren’s question about abortion.
Obama: Well, I believe when you really consider all sides, we need to start getting together with all those who can make a difference and agree to reduce the number of abortions through any number of policy means…
McCain: Life starts at conception. End legalized abortion NOW.
Their (and your) political leanings aside, to which one did the audience respond better? Obama arguably gave the more intelligent, thought-out response, but McCain gave the one to which he knew his intended audience would respond most favorably.
(OT: Visiting from HH, can’t wait to watch the AL West race next year—with a few good arms the Rangers will be a heck of a lot more intimidating than Choakland and Starbucks [not as if they’re not already…]!)
Light Up That Halo!
by Clutch on Aug 23, 2008 2:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disclosure: Not a supporter of either canddidate at this point
Considering the tone and location of the debate/discussion, I don’t think Obama handled himself poorly. If McCain ever agreed to a debate conducted at and by the ACLU, I don’t believe he would handle himself with anywhere near the same class and skill as Obama handled himself with in an arena full of conservative Christians who have already decided for whom they will vote.
by robert_d_wilfong on Aug 20, 2008 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh
nice analogy. The campaign does seem to be taking its toll on both. I remember thinking early on that Obama was incredibly smooth, but now the strain is showing. McCain has gotten better at the same time, and as usual, the GOP has the candidate more likely to give the concise, homespun answers that resonate with most folks.
When will the Dems stop putting forth Adlai Stevenson? When will the GOP start producing great presidents and not just great candidates? (No, Reagan was not that great)
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmmm....
Obama, Columbia undergrad degree… thats not a good school at all
Harvard Law degree, first black editor of the prestigous Harvard Law Review…
But Im sure he just glided through all of that school, probably barely passed, no biggy.
Its time...
by PM Productions on Aug 20, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its sharky…
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Um, yah
It’s pretty obvious that was all affirmative action.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Aug 20, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Proof?
I’m not endorsing affirmative action here (pretty cynical of its excesses) but I don’t see the basis for this being “obvious” here or even present to begin with.
Light Up That Halo!
by Clutch on Aug 23, 2008 2:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you receive
an F in online sarcasm detection.
by brettgardner on Aug 23, 2008 2:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not being very bright
didn’t hurt Bush’s election attempts, and Obama is head and shoulders smarter than that nitwit ever was.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 8:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
"Obama is head and shoulders smarter than that nitwit ever was."
No, he isnt.
Obama is dumb, he makes a lot of gaffes and cant think on his feet very well (at best he held his own in the Democrat debates).
It’s just fun to watch the savvier Repubs/McCain campaign outmaneuver the dumb Dems/Obama campaign strategically.
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
im actually very interested to see the debates
and see if obama actually does as well as everyone seems to think he does or if mccain holds his own.
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes,
Magna Cum Laudes at Harvard law are often dumber than C students like Bush.
Bush may be the dumbest president this country has ever had. I’m struggling trying to think of one dumber. Maybe in the 1800s.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 8:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you kidding me
most of what ive read online say that bush is in the middle of the pack when it comes to intelligence/IQ
the dumbest president EVER? …give me some more info thats NOT based on your opinions
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's more to intelligence
than IQ.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 9:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you REALLY think hes the dumbest president ever?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't think of any objectively dumber
since WWII. Haven’t thought too much of the preWWII ones. Maybe one of the prewar republicans like Coolidge was dumber.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
give me some information regarding that
i want to see FACTS not opinions
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Facts...
like school grades?
Come on, if you don’t think Bush is dumb then you haven’t listend to the guy speak.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
come on, if you think you can grade how smart someone is by speaking you dont understand intelligence
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 7:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If someone says
it was a very good idea to invade Iraq before we finished the job in Afghanistan, I am giving them a low grade.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ha
I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA
by ivysafety39 on Aug 21, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dumb
Gee, I think I can get a blow job from a fat intern in the Oval Office…..that’s pretty dumb, in my opinion.
"I would like to extend to you an invitation to the pants party. The...party. With the...with the pants. Party with pants?"
by BrickTamland on Aug 20, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yet
the Democrats consider him a beacon of light. Pathetic.
"I would like to extend to you an invitation to the pants party. The...party. With the...with the pants. Party with pants?"
by BrickTamland on Aug 20, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm
having an extramarital sexual encounter in the Oval office is worse than killing (like their dead) thousands of innocent people???
Good reasoning you’ve got there Brickdouchebag
"For those booing me. Take that, beeep." - Ramon Vazquez
by 8legs2fangs on Aug 20, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
show me some stats
killing THOUSANDS of innocent people?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
George Bush killed thousands of innocent people?
I’m confused. When did he do that? I thought that is what they did to us.
"I would like to extend to you an invitation to the pants party. The...party. With the...with the pants. Party with pants?"
by BrickTamland on Aug 20, 2008 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Truman
I guess you would say that about Truman as well? I’m sure the country of Japan would agree. What would you say 8legsof you’re a pussy?
"I would like to extend to you an invitation to the pants party. The...party. With the...with the pants. Party with pants?"
by BrickTamland on Aug 20, 2008 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
in 1945 the count
was OVER 220,000
+ however many thousand died from radiation exposure
this included 3200 japanese american citizens
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you would have advocated
invading Japan instead? Costing 3 or 4 times as many Japanese lives and a few hundred thousand American casaulties as well?
Truman’s decision on how to best END a war with Japan was IN NO WAY anything like the decision to START a NEW WAR in Iraq.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think
that was the argument. The argument was regarding killing innocent people, not who started or ended what. Truman killed, by far, more innocent people.
"I would like to extend to you an invitation to the pants party. The...party. With the...with the pants. Party with pants?"
by BrickTamland on Aug 20, 2008 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm...
I think it is a mistake when people try to tie World War II into the current world situation.
Frankly, WWII was not a good time to be an “innocent person.” Pretty much every country participating in the war, with the exception of the US, thanks to two oceans, had many, many innocent civilians die. Add in the difficulty I have in labeling citizens of Japan “innocent” when their empire invaded and slaughtered millions of truly innocent Chinese for no reason other than for fun. WWII was a bad time, and not a valid comparison.
However, I think that in general, wars result in innocent lives lost, and ideally most wars wouldn’t have happened. Intelligent people can disagree about Bush without calling him a mass murderer. He isn’t Hitler or Stalin or Hirohito.
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with you in principle
but 220,000 civilians killed trumps basically anything anyone can say i think.
bad time or not, say 20,000 military people were killed thats still 200,000 civilans killed.
However, I think that in general, wars result in innocent lives lost, and ideally most wars wouldn’t have happened. Intelligent people can disagree about Bush without calling him a mass murderer. He isn’t Hitler or Stalin or Hirohito.
+1000000000000000000000
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
@KOKing & Brick
I don’t understand how people can still defend Bush’s decision to invade Iraq. Please enlighten.
by robert_d_wilfong on Aug 20, 2008 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
arguement
is about if bush has killed “thousands” of innocent civilians
truman was brought up and someone said that it was a mistake to compare the two
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i supported the invasion under the original information.
i do not think it was a good idea to have the most volotile leader in (probably) the world be in an area that explosive but thats not a good enough reason to go in and invade the country.
the fact of the matter is that we are there now and if we pull our troops out tomorrow (all of them) the country will be in a worse situation then before.
(the arguement above was that bush killed “thousands” of innocent civilians btw not the invasion of iraq)
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe
a Volatile leader who has fought a war with Iran before is exactly who you want next to Iran.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so a leader
who supports suicide bombers in israel (25k per family), who has used WMDs (chemical or biological? dont remember) on iran and has invaded kuwait is GOOD to have in the middle east?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose you prefer
Iraq knowing they have nothing to worry about from anyone when developing nukes? Its not real surprising they turned it up a notch right after the invasion of Iraq.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they should know that israel has no problem
with striking at their nuclear sites, i bbelieve they did so in the late 80s
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ask hillary and most democrats
to me, abortion is not a religious issue, it's a common sense one...
by Longhorn on Aug 21, 2008 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Predictable Neo-Con drivel
If someone who is allegedly trustworthy comes to you and tells you that someone is going to break into your house tonight, what are you going to do?
The information provided by the administration was, at best, incomplete and at worst, chock full o’ lies.
Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and Cheney are bereft of any moral integrity and three of the more evil people in our great country.
by robert_d_wilfong on Aug 22, 2008 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bush killed more Americans
by getting us into Iraq by lying to the Americans and the World about WMDs and ties to AlQaida than Alqaida did on 9/11.
US Deaths in Iraq 4144
US Deaths on 9/11 2974
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I'm not mistaken
It is the insurgents and the terrorist organizations who are killing our soldiers. The enemy. Whether you agree with why we are there or not, to say Bush KILLED INNOCENT PEOPLE is just stupid.
"I would like to extend to you an invitation to the pants party. The...party. With the...with the pants. Party with pants?"
by BrickTamland on Aug 20, 2008 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What insurgents and Terrorist organizations
were in Iraq before we moved in? Was there some hotbed of insurgency and terrorism we didn’t know about?
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because...
We did not find WMDs (which according to military intelligence friends of mine were moved during the time Saddam was stalling the weapons inspectors, but who knows?) doesn’t mean that Iraq was not involved or associated with those organizations. I was not in Iraq. I was not friends with Saddam, so technically I do not know his associations. But to think that you do know all of the details of the innerworkings of the Iraqi government is extremely arrogant.
This is a no-win conversation. There is about a 98% chance that we don’t know the entire story. The difference between you and me is that you actually think you know everything. If you do, then congrats.
"I would like to extend to you an invitation to the pants party. The...party. With the...with the pants. Party with pants?"
by BrickTamland on Aug 20, 2008 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh
and Go Rangers.
"I would like to extend to you an invitation to the pants party. The...party. With the...with the pants. Party with pants?"
by BrickTamland on Aug 20, 2008 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK. I'm sorry, but this really bothers me.
I don’t like to get involved in these types of things anymore, because it’s childish, but this is asinine.
“Just because…We did not find WMDs (which according to military intelligence friends of mine were moved during the time Saddam was stalling the weapons inspectors, but who knows?) doesn’t mean that Iraq was not involved or associated with those organizations.”
The United States engaged in a war because Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. We now know that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction. To call this anything more than a war based solely on false pretense is not just insulting to our intelligence, it’s insulting to the total badasses over there fighting this war for America.
There is absolutely no excuse for this war. It’s coming out now that the evidence was very shaky at best, and it makes Bush seem awful eager to jump into an international conflict.
The bottom line is that there is no reason for the United States to be in Iraq. If you really want to argue that the United States needed to remove Saddam Hussein, you’re playing into the government’s hands by justifying the death of thousands of brave Americans by changing the reason we’re there.
The United States has thousands of its citizens in harm’s way, for what appears to be no defensible reason. That is a failure of leadership, that is a failure of government, and that is a failure of the ideals upon which this country was founded.
Aside from that, I have no opinion.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Aug 20, 2008 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but
they did have WMD’s. I know so. They simply moved them…
"You can't reason with your heart; it has its own laws, and thumps about things which the intellect scorns." - from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, by Mark Twain
by dstar442005 on Aug 20, 2008 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Probably Not
Most of the intelligence used to justify the war didn’t come from CIA or intelligence services at the DoD directly. A White House team was sent to the Pentagon to do what Sharky does: pick out what looks good and leave out the rest. There were other opinions within Army and Navy Intelligence as well as CIA but somehow that information never made it to the public. Go figure.
I ask you, why would Iraq move their WMDs when they could’ve used them against the American convoys rolling toward Basra and Baghdad, preventing or at least delaying the fall of the regime? It doesn’t make sense. If they would’ve had them they probably would’ve used them, and the fact that they had actually used them before in the 1980s suggests that they would.
by Black Francis on Aug 20, 2008 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so your saying iraq NEVER had WMDs and there was ZERO evidence that they had WMDs before we invaded?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They had them at one time
…and that time wasn’t 2003.
by Black Francis on Aug 20, 2008 4:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its been answered
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
umm
saddam hussein:
genocide
killed 100,000+ kurds
killed betweeen 60,000 and 150,000 sunis
you dont consider his gov’t a terrorist organization?
from CFR
What type of terrorist groups did Iraq support under Saddam Hussein’s regime?
Primarily groups that could hurt Saddam’s regional foes. Saddam has aided the Iranian dissident group Mujahedeen-e-Khalq and the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (known by its Turkish initials, PKK), a separatist group fighting the Turkish government. Moreover, Iraq has hosted several Palestinian splinter groups that oppose peace with Israel , including the mercenary Abu Nidal Organization, whose leader, Abu Nidal, was found dead in Baghdad in August 2002. Iraq has also supported the Islamist Hamas movement and reportedly channeled money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. A secular dictator, however, Saddam tended to support secular terrorist groups rather than Islamist ones such as al-Qaeda, experts say.
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean
the Saddam Hussein that Ronald Reagan gave $2 Billion in economic and military aid to during their war against Iraq? That guy? Reagan gave the money to Saddam after he committed the atrocities that he was hung for.
I can’t keep all the stories from the right wingers about Saddam straight. Our good buddy in the late ’80s, and the evilest dictator ever in the ’00s.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And why did Reagan give economic
and military aid to Hussein back then?
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because at the time
Iran was a threat to destabilize the region.
Somethings never change.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
strategies change….and you have to act based on the present.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like Russia invading Georgia.
Luckily for them, their invasion of Georgia is every bit as legal as the US invasion of Iraq, so they really don’t have to give a damn about our whining. Maybe they need to start teling folks they were sure Georgia had WMDs.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 2:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually no
much different situation.
breakway provinces + russian “nationals” + putin = invade georgia.
if you think that you can compare iraq and georgia you simply do not understand the background of the ussr/russia/georgia. there is MUCH more to the situation than you seem to understand
putin called the fall of the soviet union the worst “geopolitical disaster” of the 20th century. putin almost RIGHT after he gained power started centeralizing power. the party in power in their version of the legislature is not a party based on politics or issues, it is a party that was created to back putin.
to say they are the same is foolish.
its like saying that the invasion of georgia is like all the times the japanese tried to invade korea in the past…
the geopolitical background for both countries is VASTLY different
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't matter the background
Russia just copies the US formula. Once the US descends into illegal international conduct, and ignores the Geneva convention, then the US can’t whine when others do it.
Russia just needs to copy our approach.
Lie to the world about your reasons.
Don’t get UN approval.
Invade.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes the background ALWAYS matters.
or else every single invasion is exactly alike…
the UN is a joke (and this is from someone who knows way too much about it)
you REALLY think the background doesnt matter for an area?
so again, the russian invasion of georgia, the russian invasion of parts of china throughout history, the historical japanese invasion of korea, the british and french wars over america/land are ALL the same?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 8:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
From an international legal standpoint
Both the US invasion of Iraq and the Russian invasion of Georgia are illegal. The Russians would have a better chance of their war being legal, if they make some bullshit excuse about acting “in self defense” of “georgian terrorists”, and I’m surprised we haven’t heard that excuse yet.
Whether or not the UN is a joke, they are the only standard of international law. When we flout international law, it shouldn’t be surprising when folks laugh at us and flout international law.
The Bush administration pushes the standard that might makes right, well they got it. With our military tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan, Russia knows there isn’t a damn thing we can do about it.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
since direct military action is all we have ever taken against the russians, right?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, since they have the energy
and are willing to use it as a club, we may be in for another 40 year cold war, because we guaranteed there is no such thing as International rule of law, under Bush.
Might makes right and 19th century Imperialism are the rules set out by the Bush administration. Russia would be stupid not to grab anything that helps them out economically or militarily.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Iraq
not allowing UN weapons inspectors into their country was also illegal….
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 21, 2008 9:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and
sanctions weren’t being lifted in response. So what.
Sanctions were obviously working.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you KIDDING me?
sanctions were working?
since saddam had SO much respect for the UN…right?
there is def. no way to get around those sanctions…the UN might invade with their army < /sarcasm>
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes,
sanctions were working.
There were no WMDs produced since sanctions started. What part of that do you not understand?
We could have locked them down with sanctions for decades longer.
Sanctions were far preferable to destroying any pretense of international rule of law, and becoming a thug nation ourself, with zero moral sway in the world.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
cahill
look at the bottom
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
a thug nation?
your anti-american rhetoric is sickening.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 21, 2008 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What would you call a nation
that sanctions torture, starts illegal wars, and repudiates the Geneva convention?
We’ve done all 3 of those under Bush.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not criticizing
the country, just the idiots who have been running it. Seems very patriotic to me.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Russia will Defend Russia Interests to the End
The only purpose to Nato, the reason it was founded, was to oppose the Soviet Union and Russia, that is still what they do, since they are letting every crappy ex-Soviet state that wants in to Nato join. The U.S. is trying to encircle Russia with Nato Countries.
They were promised that these states would not be put into Nato by Bush I, and Clinton.
They lied.
What we will get with John McCain is World War III.
The Russians are not going to be pushed around anymore, and sure won’t let those crappy ex-soviet states get away with anything.
So, you have to ask, are those crappy ex-soviet states worth getting into World War III, because that is what will happen with John McCain, the Cold War Warrior
I think when the U.S. missiles are put in to Poland, there will be a military reaction. Will the U.S. react back?
Remember the Cuba Missle Crisis, this is that in reverse.
World War III becomes a reality.
John McCain may become the last American President if elected.
by SanDiegoKev on Aug 22, 2008 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and we thought sharky was bad
World War III becomes a reality.
John McCain may become the last American President if elected.
lol
The Russians are not going to be pushed around anymore, and sure won’t let those crappy ex-soviet states get away with anything.
HA
just a question but when do you think russia has been pushed around since putin was in power? lol
I think when the U.S. missiles are put in to Poland, there will be a military reaction. Will the U.S. react back?
and if you think russia will attack poland you are OUT of your mind.
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 22, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we'll see
Unfortunately, when you have unstable presidents such as Mikheil Saakashvili backed up by Nato, anything could set off an explosion.
I think every Ex-Soviet allowed into NATO was pushing Russia.
So, how far do you push them?
It’s not like the Russians are putting military hardware in Mexico and Cuba.
We are drawing a circle around them, and at some point, shit is going to start, and John McCain is just the man to do it.
by SanDiegoKev on Aug 22, 2008 1:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, recent history suggests
if there is a Republican in the whitehouse, there will be a war somewhere. Just hope its a smaller one, and not so much a bigger one.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 22, 2008 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No more
Mention of the fact that Democratic Presidents have the absolute advantage in time spent in conflict?
by brettgardner on Aug 22, 2008 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Reaction to Poland
According to Russian news sources, Russia has commensed talks with Syria about putting missiles in Syria. see what I mean?
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost2FJPArticle2FShowFull&cid=1219218598194
Each action gets a reaction till you get an explosion.
John McCain is a big thinker unlike Bush, and will make a big war.
You cannot expect to encircle russia with hostle countries, and not expect something bad to happen.
by SanDiegoKev on Aug 22, 2008 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You also
cannot just give in to Russian demands.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 22, 2008 9:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What demands?
I haven’t noticed them moving troops into mexico or cuba yet. What Bush is doing, is pushing their borders. That’s not too bright. McCain will make a 7th Cavarly charge in to who knows where, and bang bang…when the hurly burly’s done, when the battle’s lost and won…Shakespeare
by SanDiegoKev on Aug 23, 2008 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
that McCain is too hawkish on this, but the international community needs to do a bit more than wag their fingers at Russia, which is all they’ve done thus far.
I personally don’t feel any compulsion to care a lot about Georgia and don’t see it as vital to U.S. interests. And I don’t see why it should be part of NATO. I’m disappointed that BOTH candidates are essentially saying the same thing about this.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 24, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
So am I, I am not impressed with either candidate. They both need to understand the cold war ended some time ago, and the Soviet Union doesn’t exist anymore. Even, yesterday, the new U.S. ambassador to Russia, John Beyrle, said:
“In an interview with the Kommersant, the U.S. Ambassador to Russia, John Beyrle, confirmed that the Russian response to Georgia’s attack on South Ossetia was legitimate.”
by SanDiegoKev on Aug 24, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ah so change cant happen in 10 years?
10 years ago russia was headed towards democracy, guess thats still correct…right?
10 years ago economic oligarchs held the power in the economy, including essentially a monopoly on oil…thats still correct in russia, right?
in the late 80s, the other superpower in the world was the USSR…is that still a country?
no one EVER changes in ten years…right?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In Reaction to NATO
Russia has become more defensive in it’s posture, and may have scaled back democratic reforms somewhat. They are too busy reacting to NATO expansion and NATO threats.
NATO needs to go, it’s only point is hostiltiy to the Russian Federation.
It is an anachronism.
The EU is more able to deal with modern issues then NATO.
by SanDiegoKev on Aug 22, 2008 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you
on Putin’s payroll?
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 22, 2008 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
I am just immune to certain types brainwashing. IT seems every place in the world’s business is America’s Business, and really it’s not. Have you ever been outside of Texas, the USA or do you get your world view from CNN ?
by SanDiegoKev on Aug 24, 2008 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that
not every place in the world is America’s business. In fact, I think the U.S. should be a lot less involved in many places. But that’s a long way from saying Putin can do whatever he wants, or that NATO should be disolved.
So far the international community has done nothing about this longstanding conflict. I think McCain is nuts wrong about this issue, and Obama is simply echoing. The U.S. does not need to ever consider a military option about Georgia. But all anyone is doing right now is wagging their fingers.
It is somewhat disingenuous of Bush to complain about this, considering the U.S. penchant to invade random places. But the U.S., UN, the G-8 and everyone else should be complaining about this.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 24, 2008 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
If NATO is going to have a modern purpose to stop aggression around the world, they need to stop using it like it’s still a cold war deterrent.
There is no point in adding all the ex-soviet countries, whatevers. The only point of that, is aimed at Russia. Russia itself would have more value as a NATO member then all those countries combined.
by SanDiegoKev on Aug 24, 2008 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
u mean 60,000 to 150,000 shia’s rite….cause saddam was a sunni ….. and to think saddam supported hamas/hezbollah is kinda not all true….he probably hated hamas/hezbollah more than america…cause they are shit’e organization’s in the middle-east supported by iran….
by xav_imran on Aug 20, 2008 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Saddam was a Sunni
He didn’t slaughter Sunnis. You mean Shias.
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on Aug 20, 2008 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes sorry...my bad
thought i posted a comment to xav_imran
typo
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
lied?
so these guys are liars too? they all said that iraq had WMDs…
joe lieberman
tom daschle
john kerry
harold ford
tom lantos
tom harkin
arlen specter
madeline albright
sandy berger
barbara boxer
robert byrd
wesley clark
jacques chirac
bill clinton
hillary clinton
william cohen
john edwards
dick gephart
al gore
jim jeffords
ted kennedy
carl levin
patty murray
nancy pelosi
scott ritter (un weapons inspector)
john rockafeller
henry waxman
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
None of those
presented evidence, they just went along with it. They are indeed guilty of not questioning enough. Of course, if they had, the GOP would have just questioned their patriotism. It seems that trying to ascertain the validity of a call to war means you are automatically a hater of freedom.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they went along with it
of course, an easy out
so lets get this straight
BUSH lied but these guys didnt? even though they are quoted most of them multiple times as saying that saddam had WMDs?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bush didn't present evidence either...
what’s your point?
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm
Bush didn’t make a case for going to war? Huh?
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure he did
using intelligence that he was given….He didn’t make up the intelligence.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ron Suskind begs to differ
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on Aug 20, 2008 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Intelligence that went through
Doug Feith , or, “The Dumbest Fucking man on the Planet” according to General Tommy Franks.
Hire people to tell you that there are WMDs in Iraq, and its no surprise they tell you there are WMDs in Iraq.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
when do you think they got rid of them?
where do you think they went?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They never existed.
The intelligence was fabricated, and any pieces of intelligence that didn’t support that hypothesis were discarded. Witness the outing of Valerie Plame as a CIA agent when her husband dared to tell folks that the stories of Yellowcake were a load of shit.
This administration hired folks to screen intelligence, and made up a case for going to war in Iraq out of whole cloth. There was no factual basis for the war. However, folks like Rumsfeldt, Feith and others had been urging war with Iraq since the late ’90s, and they stitched it together and pushed ith through.
They cynically used 9/11 to get the war they had been lobbying for. That is why folks like Colin Powell, Scott Mclellean and other have turned their back on the administration.
Those are the jackasses, criminals, and thugs the Republicans staff their executive branches with.
Thats why George Bush’s administration is responsible for more American Deaths than Usama bin Laden.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you saying iraq NEVER had WMDs?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not after
the first Iraq war, no.
There is not a shred of proof anywhere that these mythical devices ever existed.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
where do you believe they went?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whereever stuff goes
that never existed. The island of broken toys? Unicornland? You got me.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
ok but you are saying that they had them before
and during first gulf war.
thought you were saying they were never there…my bad.
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Before the First gulf war
they had stocks which were destroyed by the UN after Gulf War 1. There is absolutely no evidence that there was any WMD production after Gulf War 1.
So, I have no idea what you are asking. Did you assume after Gulf War 1 we let them keep their WMDs?
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i thought you were saying they NEVER had WMDs i was misreading what you had to say.
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Terrorist attacks since 9/11
0. Enough said.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Partly right
Terrorist attacks inside the U.S. since 9/11, 0. That’s nice, but it sure doesn’t make the war on terror a success by itself.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I meant within the US
however I guess i should have stated that. Nobody said it makes the war on terror a success by itself. But you have to admit that statistic is pretty damn impressive considering how big america is and really how vulnerable we are.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And furthermore
it is NOT enough said. Has bin Laden been caught and Al Qaida defeated yet? Are you really confident that the intelligence apparatus has been sufficiently reformed and rejuvenated since they dropped the ball leading up to 9/11? Has anyone except for a cab driver been brought to justice yet?
There is a long, long list of unfinished business nearly 7 years after.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obviously it's a difficult
mission considering you are going after people not a country or a government…There has been a lot of progress made. To think that that isn’t the case would be crazy.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's especially difficult
when you start a new war on top of the one you’re already unsuccessfully fighting. Brilliant strategy, I can’t believe they haven’t caught bin Laden yet. Hey, at least we got Saddam!
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Number of times I've been mauled by a gay tiger since I bought these new boxer shorts:
0.
Wanna buy a pair of boxer shorts that’s proven to protect against gay tiger attacks?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Aug 20, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
haha
I was thinking something along those lines, but yours has a little more zing.
by Black Francis on Aug 20, 2008 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actual number of terrorist attacks since 9/11
>> 0
Plus, if you’re only talking about terrorist attacks in the US, that’s also wrong.
It is NOT zero.
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2008/08/no_attack_in_the_us_since_911.php
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2005/10/no-terrorist-attack-on-us-soil-since.html
http://krishna109.newsvine.com/_news/2008/08/17/1756079-no-attack-in-the-us-since-9-11-
And this is the problem with politics now a days.
People keep repeating the same WRONG information and more people believe it. And it becomes tough to actually get the CORRECT information out there.
In addition, it is more likely that the lack of major terrorist attacks in the US is due to SECURITY RESTRICTIONS put in place at airports and public venues.
The Iraq war is likely very low on the totem pole for reasons of why terrorists have not successfully pulled off a major attack in the US.
It makes no sense to imply that it is the primary reason for the low amount of attacks in the USA.
R
by Requiem on Aug 20, 2008 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you are a moron
absolute idiot.
to me, abortion is not a religious issue, it's a common sense one...
by Longhorn on Aug 21, 2008 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DJCahill is the dumbest person ever.
Hey, i can do it too! What fun!
to me, abortion is not a religious issue, it's a common sense one...
by Longhorn on Aug 20, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You sound silly
Why is Bush dumb?
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better question...
what has he done to make you think he is smart?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He won the White House twice...
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 8:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah that was all Bush...
even you know Rove was Bush’s brain. Come on.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Rove is better than
all the Dems…You still lose.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
You said someone sounded silly for suggesting Bush is dumb. I asked what has he done to make you think he is smart. Your answer is Rove is better than all the dems? How do I lose? You have yet to answer my question. I can provide you with numerous examples of why Bush is dumb.
So again, what has he done to make you think he is smart?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Bush won the white house twice because
he had Karl Rove behind him? So Rove tricked America into voting for a dumb person twice?
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 21, 2008 1:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
people act like bush is a complete idiot…yet many who have actually spent time with him disagree…i can find articles if need be.
and if ANYONE thinks you can measure how smart someone is by how they talk thats just effing DUMB. my mom is a speech patholegist. she has worked with MANY children who have had speech impediments yet still been brillant (both at the time/age level and later on in life)
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clearly America likes how he speaks
or they wouldn’t have re-elected him….SLC Ranger is just a delusional liberal.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 21, 2008 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I'm delusional and dumb...
you two are clearly the brilliant ones around here.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 21, 2008 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
shut up
to me, abortion is not a religious issue, it's a common sense one...
by Longhorn on Aug 21, 2008 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great point
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 21, 2008 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are you guys kidding
Obama is head an shoulders smarter than Bush.. If you think that McCain is a better choice than Obama, you’ve got another thing coming.. I weep for the day that McCain (if he does) takes office.. This country is going to hell in a hand basket..
"Water covers 2/3 of the world, T-New's got the rest"
by TheJman on Aug 20, 2008 8:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its sad that...
…the ONLY thing the republicans are really good at is winning elections… they certainly can’t govern, manage the economy, or run a war worth a damn…. but they can win an election… lame
I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA
by ivysafety39 on Aug 20, 2008 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
They are good at borrowing money, kicking it back to their friends, and leaving the country with a huge debt. I’m not sure anyone in the world is better at that sort of corruption.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 9:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lol
Typical LSB liberal dumbasses in full force I see.
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you ever have any refutation
other than calling someone a liberal?
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nope.
thats his game. resort to name calling and move on to another topic.
I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA
by ivysafety39 on Aug 20, 2008 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Isn't that the general strategy
Of the entire RNC?
Light Up That Halo!
by Clutch on Aug 23, 2008 2:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
remind me how many presidents
have left office with a budget SURPLUS?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Now I remember why I dont post politics at LSB
The liberal zealot slobberers are really bad here.
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clinton, for one.
Didn’t take long for that douchenozzle to turn it into record deficits though.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meh
Clinton didn’t do anything to cut deficits, he just benefited from a roaring economy=increased tax revenue at the same level of taxation at the time.
The idea that Democrats are somehow more fiscally responsible is laughable on it’s face, anyway. California is the most liberal state in the union and has record deficits. On the other hand Texas is doing pretty well in that dept…
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arnold Schwarzeneggar.
Republican Governor.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
AHAHAHAHAHAH
I have nothing more to say about that..
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Arnold
What party is he a member of?
Hint: It’s not the Democrats.
He’s all yours.
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
by RCCook on Aug 20, 2008 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
AHAHAHAHA
Nuff said.
Anyways I said California is the most liberal state in the union, which it is.
No joke that place is probably going to slide into the ocean one of these days.
Love to hear Micheal Savage rant against “San Fransicko”.
California is a wasteland..run by liberals..
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow
what the fuck is wrong with you? You really need to let go of all your anger towards life. You’re going to have a heartattack! Does any of your spewing change ANYTHING? No, except rile people up and create a miserable place in life.
"For those booing me. Take that, beeep." - Ramon Vazquez
by 8legs2fangs on Aug 20, 2008 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
California
is a disaster. It is what happens when you run a state economy the way the federal government runs itself. With the difference that California cannot print money.
We’re taxed at one of the highest rates in the nation (with taxes likely going up this year), yet the roads and schools are subpar; utilities are sky-high. Fires break out and cities and the state can’t coordinate where to send the water-copters and planes sit on runways. Not to mention that all the major local governments are corrupt (San Diego and LA particularly).
It is hard to blame Arnold alone – but its pretty much everyone in Sacramento’s fault. The state spends too much money.
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Umm
Bush also benefitted from a roaring economy through the first 6 years of his tenure but managed to put up huge deficits in that time.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
I recall economy turned middling early in Bush’s tenure.
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
it didn’t turn “middling” until at least 2006.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 9:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't dispute facts with Sharky...
all he will do is say those facts are “leberal rhetoric”.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Funny
that reasonable spending and good governance lead to peace and prosperity.
We’d hate to see more peace and prosperity, so vote for the party of pointless War and massive deficits, vote Republican!
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok Cahill
What great things did Clinton do to lower deficits? Besides benefit from Reagan and HW Bush’s great leftover economies rescued from Carter?
BTW, funny you’re still railing against Republicans over the war, while remaining silent at just how right I was about the Derms tacit support of same.
You’re inconsistent, to say the least. You’re not even against the war, just Republicans, clearly.
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, the credit for the surplus
should probably go to the elder Bush and the Democratic congress who raised taxes. Imagine that, more revenue means a balanced budget. The Laffer curve is just a laugher. The elder Bush was screwed by his own party despite doing one of the smartest things a president should do: make a difficult decision and compromise.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hm.
Well, actually it’s a little more complicated than that. The budgets he sent to Congress were aimed at balancing the budget. The economy was going so well that they actually accomplished a little bit more than that for a while.
There was increased revenue, in part because of strong economic performance and partly because the tax structure was NOT the same. We can’t continue to cut taxes and spend more and more. Look at what’s happened to the value of the dollar, which is responsible for a big portion of the increased price of gas at the pump, which is in turn one of the major drags on our economy right now.
Anyway, during the Clinton years we actually started to spend less on the day-to-day operations of the federal government thanks to advancements in technology and its implementation (Al Gore headed up a program called Reinventing Government that he should’ve talked about more in 2000). Welfare reforrm (in spite of its hidden costs) helped out. So did the end of the Cold War and the continuation of George HW Bush’s downsizing of the military.
I know you’re not one for nuanced opinion, but to say that Clinton — the President of the United States — had nothing to do with cutting the deficit is just plain stupid, Sharky.
by Black Francis on Aug 20, 2008 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
give me more names
before you bitch and moan about
borrowing money, kicking it back to their friends, and leaving the country with a huge debt
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reagan and Bush
what other names do you need? Bush added almost 4 Trillion to the US debt, and Reagan added almost 2 Trillion. Borrow and spend and keep the country afloat through deficit spending has been the Republican formula for almost 30 years.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how many presidents have not
[borrowed] money, [kicked] it back to their friends, and [left] the country with a huge debt
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considering
Bush, Bush, and Reagan are responsible for 78% of the 9.6 Trillion debt in this country. Clinton inherited massive deficits from Bush the older and somewhat smarter, and left the country with budget surpluses.
This is all public record info, look it up. Republicans talk a good game about small government, but when they get in power, its all about borrow and spend.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bush inherited
a shitty economy from CLinton…what’s your point?
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bush inherited a record surplus.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Aug 20, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
read this
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1240270/posts
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bush inherited an economy
in very good shape. There were some clouds on the horizon, which he, the Fed, congress, etc. did absolutely nothing of consequence to avoid. He is not solely to blame — no president ever is on the economy — but he is hardly blameless. By the same token, Clinton does not deserve much credit for the good economy he handed to Bush.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
crap, here we go
you can’t use Free Republic as a source in a political debate any more than a liberal can use Daily Kos. Anyone who uses either of those sites as a reference in any debate loses all credibility.
Plus the fact that article was written in 2000 and was trying to predict the future. You show me an article writtin in 2007 that says the economy already crappy when Bush took office and you’ll have a point.
I’m not saying you’re right or wrong, but learn to use credible sources.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Aug 20, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you do understand
its an article from the NY Daily News, written by a writer from the AP…
Bush Did Inherit a Bad Economy
NY DAILY NEWS
12/04/2000
Martin Crutsinger, AP
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah, saw that
but the link that supposedly goes to the article goes nowhere, so I can’t verify that… and my point about it being written in 2000 and trying to predict the future still stands.
It’s an Op-Ed peice from before Bush took office. It has no relevency now. Using it in a debate 8yrs later is just lazy.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Aug 20, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you think that its a made uparticle?
really…REALLY?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
never said it was made up
just said that the link to the article was dead.
That was quite an assumption there.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Aug 20, 2008 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
but the link that supposedly goes to the article goes nowhere, so I can’t verify that… and
ill find the story on wayback machine when i get home to confirm it for you…
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
again
where in that quote do I say the article was made up? You made that illogical jump, not me. I was just pointing out that the website had a broken link to the article it was reprinting. You made the assumption that I thought it was all one big lie.
You should stop, take a deep breath and then come back later. You’re swinging at windmills here.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Aug 20, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
your the one who rails against free republic
despite the fact that i think the 3? times links have been posted they have linked to news stories…
so i cant post stories from national review that link to other articles because they are known to be biased, correct?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not really
I was pointing out that even in 2000 it was stated that whoever inherited the White House, Dem or Rep would inherit a bad economy.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I read the article
the only issue is that the economy didn’t end up being as bad as was predicted in the article when Bush took office. It was trying to predict the future. We can look back and see that it was wrong, or we can go back and use it to try and prove an invalid point.
I’m sure I can find articles from 2000 somewhere that predicted that whomever was going to take office in 2000 was going to inherit sunshine and rainbows. 8yr old articles trying to extrapolate what would happen have no relevence here.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Aug 20, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You didn't read the actual content in the link did you?
LOL
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
yes I did if you had actually read my post.
Sheesh. I wasn’t talking about your position, just your source. Are you honestly going to attack me not knowing my actual position on the subject because I urged you to use better sources?
Think about that for a minute.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Aug 20, 2008 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
what’s wrong with the source? It is NY daily news.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and an AP writer....
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so the next time someone
pops up an AP article that makes Bush look like an orangutan, you won’t have a problem with it, right? Because it’s the AP, right?
sheesh
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Aug 20, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you bash the source
free republic
even though its a NY daily news written by an AP writer
not one of the users from free republic
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You aren't paying attention to what I'm saying at all, are you?
for the record, I think the article was right. I just think it was a BAD SOURCE AND DOESN’T HELP YOUR ARGUMENT.
I was trying to help you, but if you insist on being this way with everyone who doesn’t say “ZOMG YOU’RE SO RIGHT” then you’re not going to win many debates.
You have to make sure your sources are good, not an 8yr old Op-Ed piece that was trying to say what was going to happen not what actually happened.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Aug 20, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am paying attention
you questioned my source…and now you realize that the source actually wasn’t New republic.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh for fucks's sake
I realized that from the very beginning. Read my first post. The reason I called out the Freepers and the Kosheads is becausae they pick and choose articles that agree with them and take other things out of context and you can’t trust anything you read there. They used a NY Daily News article from 2000 to try and prove that Bush was doing a great job before the 2004 election. It was irrelevent then and it’s irrelevent now.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Aug 20, 2008 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's relevant now
because someone here said he didn’t inherit a poor economy.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreen is actually trying to make a point
misguided though it is. But you’re just being an irritant. Go away.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Aug 20, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you seriously need to stop right here
The article said that whomever took office would inherit a slowingeconomy, not that he did inherit it. Can you see the fucking difference?
Try and understand this. It’s not a news article. It’s an 8yr old Op-Ed piece that says what the writer thinks will happen. It CANNOT be used as asource of what did happen.
I’m trying to help you here and all you’re not listening at all.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Aug 20, 2008 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reagan is different from Bush
When Reagan came into office, the economy was really in shambles, and his tax cuts were necessary to bring the country out of what almost was a depression. The spending went up because Reagan saw an opportunity to kill the USSR by crippling their economy with defense spending. It was a smart move, and it worked. The price the US paid in deficit was worth freeing the people of Eastern Europe and Russia. (yes, the post-Soviet era could have been better, but that is a different story)
For Bush II, 9/11 was a major national event, which mandated a defense response in Afghanistan and even if not Iraq, would have boosted the military nonetheless. The problem was that Bush still wanted to further cut taxes and up spending in other areas. Yes, defense is a priority after a terrorist attack. But to pass the expense of it off to the future while continuing to prop up the economy with tax cuts and low interest rates was poor economics.
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good thing
Most of the country is run by Democrats who rack up huge deficits, corruption scandals, and kickbacks to their rich friends.
And oh how they love the Iraq war., Could Sharky have been righter on that? One year later and it went exactly as I said..Democraps didnt do a damn thing to end the war..
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Iraq
If you’re looking for something to crow about concerning a Republican administration, Iraq should be at the very bottom of your list. It had nowhere to go but up.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm ambivilant about Iraq
What I do know is it’s a source of great increase of government power as well as making a lot of people dependant on government spending, and I have correctly called the fact Democrats will do nothing to end it since they love those two things.
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Neither party
is good at cutting spending, ending huge government programs, or clean on corruption and backscratching. Neither party. You should admit that both parties are basically the same on most of that kind of stuff. The GOP has paid huge lip service to cutting government spending for 30 years, but somehow has increased it massively instead. They have zero credibility on this issue.
And on increasing government power, there I think the GOP does have a huge edge on the Dems. The centralizing of power in the executive branch during the last 7 years may end up being the most memorable thing about the Bush administration.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please
Clinton did more of that than Bush ever did. You just never hear about it since he did it in service of liberalism.
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you know what a compromise is?
Let’s just say both parties suck, the system is fucked and get on with our lives.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 10:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
didnt end it
despite having full control of both houses
hmmmm
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smartness
doesn’t dictate how effectively someone runs a country
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
shocking!
are you sure if you dont have IQ of above 180 you cant be in leadership? </ sarcasm>
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Democratic party is not bright....
They couldn’t pull it off in 2004 and now they are losing this election? The GOP owns them, it’s embarrassing.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
biden
like i read/heard somewhere yesterday…give the guy two weeks and he is guaranteed to make a dumb comment
Mr. Biden is equally skeptical—albeit in a slightly more backhanded way—about Mr. Obama. "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," he said. "I mean, that’s a storybook, man."
But—and the "but" was clearly inevitable—he doubts whether American voters are going to elect "a one-term, a guy who has served for four years in the Senate," and added: "I don’t recall hearing a word from Barack about a plan or a tactic."
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 8:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
also some interesting stuff on biden
great site by nate silver (of baseball prospectus fame)
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/08/do-voters-like-joe-biden.html
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 8:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
nate's conclusion
I understand that there is more to picking a VP than favorable/unfavorable ratings — elections aren’t won by out-nicing the other ticket. There is no doubt that Biden would perform well on the talk show circuit, and that he’d assuage the concerns of a certain number of older, foreign-policy-focused voters. That might be enough to make him a worthy choice. But I don’t think he’d quite as appealing to the electorate as the conventional wisdom seems to hold.
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
further conclusion from todays post
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/08/biden-new-trick-for-old-fogeys.html
In any event, based on my 99.99% uninformed aggregation of information and intuition, I’d probably place the candidates into something like the following tiers:
1. Biden, Kaine
2. Sebelius, Clinton
3. Bayh, Reed, Other
thoughts:
-interesting he has bayh in the 3rd category
-i think he takes biden…which he will probably regret after he pops off. biden is more likely to pop off with a dumb one-liner than mccain…and thats pretty impressive
-i think there is zero chance he takes sebeilus
so who do yall think ends up as the veep selection for obama?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 8:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I voted for Charlie Hough
"Over the last 15 months, we’ve traveled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states" - Barack Obama
by DaheelzCM on Aug 20, 2008 8:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
More likely to pop off a dumb one-liner than McCain?
That’d be a lot.
Unfortunately, the press hasn’t been paying attention for whatever reason (whether it be pro-McCain bias or Obama-mania or whatever).
R
by Requiem on Aug 20, 2008 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea i know
but look at his quotes on the ’net
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 7:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
His site is great
Biden is Obama’s best pick, IMO, and he’s a fun guy to watch, even if I don’t agree with him on everything. He’ll make the next 3 months entertaining at least. unlike Bayh, who’ll make me fall asleep
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yea im a big fan of 538 as well
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
also regarding mccain veep-stakes
As speculation grows around who John McCain will select as his vice presidential running mate next week, Republican National Committee officials said Tuesday that McCain is no longer considering former Pennsylvania Gov. Tom Ridge.
Several sources at the RNC told FOX News that in the last 36 hours, senior McCain advisers and aides have told RNC officials that McCain "got the message" last week that choosing a running mate who supports abortion rights would not be helpful.
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/08/19/rnc-mccain-wont-choose-abortion-supporting-running-mate/
fwiw – from RNC not from mccain
also in article:
(National Review Editor Rich) Lowry said he thinks the safest choice for McCain is Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty, whom he described as "kind of dull" but a reliable choice to satisfy the Republican base.
so basically i think its down to
-romney (problem is that hes a mormon – and like something i read on national review regarding a pro-choice running mate, it just comes down to how much conservatives can stomach mccain/whoever his choice is…or how much they wont vote for obama. interesting choice because he is a businessman, has huge fundraising potential and knows economics, something mccain self-professes to know know much about)
-lowry (dont know a lot about him…)
-huckabee (darkhorse – would be interesting b/c it locks up evangelical voters imo + huckabee is fairly well liked by the base IIRC. read in the last few days where someone said the VP part of the ticket should be for evening things out – well huckabee and the others would probably meet this requirement. this is the most interesting of the 3 choices imo just from my perspective – the effect he could have on voting at least…)
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 8:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Electoral-vote.com
Sharky, you check the site electoral-vote.com as an extra resource. They take the polls from the past week and show the electoral map. They currently have Obama 264, McCain 261, and Virginia too close to call. The blogger has some liberal leanings but he tries to keep the front page objective.
Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!
by DerekSTheRed on Aug 20, 2008 9:04 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
From what I recall
That site is way too heavily liberal.
I believe they had Kerry winning right throught in 04
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah
And the guys rant after Kerry lost was bit comical. Still he has some good features and is now following Senate and House races.
Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!
by DerekSTheRed on Aug 20, 2008 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Real Clear Politics General Election:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html
8/04 to 8/19:
obama: 44.9
mccain: 43.7
obama: +1.2%
real clear politics electoral college:
electoral count: http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=5
obama: 228 (solid: 183) – 45 leaning
mccain: 178 (solid: 139) – 39 leaning
toss up: 132
electoral count (no toss up states): http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/maps/obama_vs_mccain/?map=10
mccain: 274
obama: 264
Pollster.com averages: http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/08-us-pres-ge-mvo.php
obama: 45.7
mccain: 43.2
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 9:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
McCain
Well, now we definitely know Obama’s going to win.
Because Sharky came on here several times last year, and said at various times that Romney, Huckabee, and Fred Thompson would all win the Republican nomination, but none of them did.
It’s pretty clear to me that his predictive powers are lacking, to say the least.
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
by RCCook on Aug 20, 2008 9:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well, uhh
No.
Also I never said those things, you guys just put a bunch of words in my mouth.
The only one I actually said would win at one very early point was probably Thompson…
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 9:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who to be fair
led in the polling for a while before he declared
then was a HUGEEEE flop
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Here’s two comments you made about Huckabee previously:
http://www.lonestarball.com/2008/1/8/20314/76259#2700615
“Huck takes Mich and SC, he’s going to take Florida then. You look at the Florida polls he’s already right near the top, now add the momentum of a Mich+SC win and it would be over in Florida. and I think he’s then relatively unstoppable with all that momentum into super Tuesday. That is how I see things shaking out.”
http://www.lonestarball.com/2008/1/8/20314/76259#2700589
“Huckabee is going to win. Just watching his press conferences, it’s so obvious this guy is a winner.”
Remember, there’s a search function on this site. You might want to keep that in mind before trying to lie your way out of another point.
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
by RCCook on Aug 20, 2008 9:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
HAHAHHAH
and WE HAVE A WINNER!
I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA
by ivysafety39 on Aug 20, 2008 9:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
RCCook, FTW!
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Aug 20, 2008 10:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, Sharky will never respond to this now.
He’s been caught.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Aug 20, 2008 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We called him on that shit before...
and he ignored it.
Sharky is a grade A assclown.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
more biden quotes
On McCain:
Biden, on a post-debate appearance on MSNBC, October 30, 2007: "The only guy on the other side who’s qualified is John McCain."
Biden appearing on The Daily Show, August 2, 2005: "John McCain is a personal friend, a great friend, and I would be honored to run with or against John McCain, because I think the country would be better off, be well off no matter who…"
On Meet the Press, November 27, 2005: "I’ve been calling for more troops for over two years, along with John McCain and others subsequent to my saying that."
On Obama:
Reacting to an Obama speech on counterterrorism, August 1, 2007: "‘Look, the truth is the four major things he called for, well, hell that’s what I called for,’ Biden said today on MSNBC’s Hardball, echoing comments he made earlier in the day at an event promoting his book at the National Press Club. Biden added, ‘I’m glad he’s talking about these things.’"
Also that day, the Biden campaign issued a release that began, "The Biden for President Campaign today congratulated Sen. Barack Obama for arriving at a number of Sen. Biden’s long-held views on combating al Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan." That release mocked Obama for asking about the "stunning level of mercury in fish" and asked about a proposal for the U.S. adopt a ban on mercury sales abroad at a Senate Foreign Relations Committee hearing.
Assessing Obama’s Iraq plan on September 13, 2007: "My impression is [Obama] thinks that if we leave, somehow the Iraqis are going to have an epiphany" of peaceful coexistence among warring sects. "I’ve seen zero evidence of that."
Speaking to the New York Observer: Biden was equally skeptical — albeit in a slightly more backhanded way — about Mr. Obama. "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," he said. "I mean, that’s a storybook, man."
Also from that Observer interview: "But — and the ‘but’ was clearly inevitable — he doubts whether American voters are going to elect ‘a one-term, a guy who has served for four years in the Senate,’ and added: ‘I don’t recall hearing a word from Barack about a plan or a tactic.’"
Around that time, Biden in an interview with the Huffington Post, he assessed Obama and Hillary Clinton: "The more people learn about them (Obama and Hillary) and how they handle the pressure, the more their support will evaporate."
December 11, 2007: "If Iowans believe campaign funds and celebrity will fix the debacle in Iraq, put the economy on track, and provide health care and education for America’s children, they should support another candidate," said Biden for President Campaign Manager Luis Navarro. "But I’m confident that Iowans know what I know: our problems will require experience and leadership from Day One. Empty slogans will be no match for proven action on caucus night."
Also that night, Biden said in a campaign ad, "When this campaign is over, political slogans like ‘experience’ and ‘change’ will mean absolutely nothing. The next president has to act."
September 26, 2007: Biden for President Campaign Manager Luis Navarro said, "Sen. Obama said he would do everything possible to end the war in Iraq and emphasized the need for a political solution yet he failed to show up to vote for Sen. Biden’s critical amendment to provide a political solution in Iraq.
December 26, 2006: "Frankly, I think I’m more qualified than other candidates, and the issues facing the American public are all in my wheelbarrow."
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NGRhNzJlMWY5NjdiNzhjMTRkYjMzNjYwOGJmYzNjMTY=
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 9:25 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What's your point?
Biden said negative things about Obama when he was running against him? I don’t think that’s a suprise.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
by WyoRanger on Aug 20, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no no
just some quotes from biden – hes an interesting character to me
TONS of foreign policy experience, lots of experience and the guy i think that ends up as the veep
he also has/had interesting views on iraq:
basically they were kurds in the north, sunni? in the south w/ cut of oil money and shi’ia? in the middle w/ oil money
fwiw may be shi’ia and sunnis swapped…dont remember 100%
hes a facinating character and im kind of interestedin him. clearly wouldnt bump me to the obama side but still intereted in the guy…
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds to me like it would be the dumbest thing for Obama to do
Picking Biden as veep that is.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who do you think he has to pick?
imo biden balances the ticket – foreign policy experience + experience PERIOD.
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It contradicts everything he's said about bringing change to Washington
Doesn’t make any sense at all. Unless he plans on insulting his supporter’s intelligence along with dooming his presidential bid.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so you think
he can win the race with 2 guys who have basically no national experience?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
at least kaine has SOME real leadership experience on the state level
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
Picking a veep who supported the Iraq war, or at least the surge, would probably give McCain more ammo to question Obama’s intelligence/reasoning skills/political agenda. I don’t know very much about the possible veeps so I don’t know who I would prefer. I would definitely prefer a state governor over another senator.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
re:
Finally I feel like Obama is not very bright
Of course, he’s a Liberal.
to me, abortion is not a religious issue, it's a common sense one...
by Longhorn on Aug 20, 2008 9:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The so-called conservative party
has absolutely nothing to crow about right now. They’re not even conservative.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
the Republicans pretty much deserve to get the whipping they are about to receive.
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You must have missed the title of the thread
the Republicans are winning….
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
McCain may well win the election
he’s a smart candidate for this cycle (he is considered the anti-Bush of the party, even if he really isn’t). And Obama’s strengths are all also negatives to some people.
I think Obama is a strong candidate, but he’s risky. And the Democrats didn’t need to be risky this year – playing it straight would have been a guaranteed victory.
That said, the Republicans will lose seats in the house and senate – and it’ll be a very, very powerful Democratic mandate no matter who wins. The Republicans are in bad shape. They are corrupt, free-spending bureaucrats who are everything that the average conservative disdains.
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
whipping?
Real Clear Politics General Election:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html
8/04 to 8/19 average:
obama: 44.9
mccain: 43.7
obama: +1.2%
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
off topic
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It stands for...
Oh crap, Sharky’s Talking again.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Aug 20, 2008 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hahaha
not funny.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But you laughed.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Aug 20, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I know
it was somewhat funny but I like when Sharky’s stirs the pot around here.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I will say this.
If a troll has to post an obviously inflammatory diary, I’m glad it’s Sharky.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Aug 20, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
but also I dont think Sharky comments enough anymore to be considered a troll.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's like LSB's "troll emeritus".
Comes around every once in a while, draws an audience, we all clap, he goes back to his McMansion.
"One man, five scoops." -- shroomer
by ghtd36 on Aug 20, 2008 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean he goes back
to work at McDonalds.
“You want some fries with that?”
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
…really? no need for that.
quite honesly, as far right wing as sharky is…your pretty far left wing as well…maybe the equilivant of sharky but on the left? lol
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
at least in this thread
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You, sharky
and a few others here seem to think anyone to the left of Genghis Khan is liberal. Anyway, being liberal or conservative is not in itself a bad thing, though the GOP has succeeded in somehow making liberal a dirty word lately. I really wish the GOP was conservative, instead of simply paying lip service to controlling the size and scope of government. They are only conservative socially, while being nearly indistinguishable from and equally incompetent as the fiscally challenged Dems on budget and governance.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow you sound like a really
jealous liberal…don’t be mad because your party isn’t good at their job.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
jealous liberal?
i dont get why everyone thinks that just because bush stole the election of 04, that democrats dont know how to do their job.. If they were in office for the past 4 or even 8 years, this world would be a different place.. and im gonna say a better place. just because there is a larger section of the country that believes in different things does not make them right.. This is the reason i hate politics.. to quote chris rock “anyone who makes a decision on an issue before he hears the facts is a moron.” the two party system we have does not work because it puts people living in the same area against each other, with the basis on the difference, in my opinion, not totally but definately on religion. Im a firm believer in the way this country was founded on separation of church and state.. under bush, this was definately not the case.. im not saying religion is bad, but to use a fictional book in order to divide a nation (or world) is troubling and has no end in sight
"Water covers 2/3 of the world, T-New's got the rest"
by TheJman on Aug 20, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just because Bush stole the election in 04?
what was his approval rating then? And he still won. And now McCain is beating Obama…the Dems are clearly inferior to the GOP when it comes to running a presidential campaign. It’s as simple as that. As for bible being fiction, I also believe that but I’m not sure how you can debate that with someone and you know this so you’re just trying to piss people off by saying that. Stop being overemotional when you write…
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that wasnt my point
Im just saying that there is a large contingency of poitics that has more to do with location than actual politics
"Water covers 2/3 of the world, T-New's got the rest"
by TheJman on Aug 20, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What do you mean?
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
first off i appoligize for the bible comment
upon thinking about it, not the right course of action.. I just think that first off, politician say what they think you want to hear.. im tired of the way this country is split up and the dissent that leads to hatred.. we are all americans, there has got to be a better way to decide how we are all gonna live.. i have no trust in the government to give me the truth and that is a really sad state of events… i dont have any solutions to the problem, i just hope at some point, someone smarter than i am can
"Water covers 2/3 of the world, T-New's got the rest"
by TheJman on Aug 20, 2008 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how did he steal the election in 2004?
2000 I can see – that was essentially a tie solved by a tiebreaker that ideally wouldn’t have been used – obviously national elections are not precise enough to determine within 0.1 percent. (it’s like those Olympics gymnastic judges)
2004 was pretty much a convincing victory for Bush. There may have been some questionable issues in some places, but there are everywhere, and in the end probably don’t help one guy or the other (again, the electoral system in this country is probably only precise within 0.5%). I guarantee you that both Kerry and Bush got illegal votes, as I guarantee you that everyone gets illegal votes in elections.
Kerry was a bad candidate, and really so was Gore. The problem with the Democrats is that they are beholden to the liberal wing of their party, so they don’t nominate guys (or women) with a legitimate chance of winning. Obama is a special case, because of his charisma.
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
can't argue with the ignorant.
to me, abortion is not a religious issue, it's a common sense one...
by Longhorn on Aug 20, 2008 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have never seen you win an argument with anyone.
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on Aug 20, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't mean he actually stole it
I mean that the Dems were big time favorites going into that election and they couldn’t win it.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I can't believe
how often I state a middle of the road position here and get called a liberal. I often bash both parties’ incompetence, but get called a liberal. I often complaing about how the GOP isn’t conservative enough for me, but get called a liberal.
Amazing.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's the beauty of the GOP
Anyone that’s not a right wing conservative is a damn dirty liberal. And thanks to Limbaugh and to a lesser extent Fox News, they’ve made “liberal” a dirty word. It was really sort of brilliant how the GOP and their mouthpieces turned the very notion of any “democrat” into “liberal”; i.e. some godless unpatriotic homosexual. Additionally, the press is all “liberal” and can’t be trusted. Only Fox News tells the truth.
I’m serious when I say that I’m impressed with how the GOP has created this sweeping ideology that’s blindly accepted.
Nothing pithy here. Please move long.
by WyoRanger on Aug 20, 2008 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So, why run from being a liberal?
to me, abortion is not a religious issue, it's a common sense one...
by Longhorn on Aug 20, 2008 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Some of us don't
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wouldn't run from it
is I was a liberal. I am liberal on some social issues, much more conservative on most fiscal issues. These days, according to the GOP, that makes me a liberal.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I concur
I consider myself a moderate, but every time I disagree with any Republican point of view, I’m considered a flaming liberal.
Whereas whenever I disagree with a Democrat, we actually discuss the issue.
This attack mentality of Republicans against ANYTHING which might show that they’re wrong has worked in the short-run, but I really think people are starting to get tired of this “you either agree with us completely or you’re against us” mentality.
Unfortunately, I don’t think Obama is taking advantage and hammering McCain at some real gaffes and blunders that he’s made.
It’s making this election uncomfortably close.
R
by Requiem on Aug 20, 2008 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you think that cahill
is middle of the road?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haven't seen enough of his ideology...
to say he’s middle of the road.
OTOH, I can pretty much classify you and Agreen07 as strong right-wingers.
It’s hard to determine, because Republicans keep saying everyone to the left of them is a liberal.
R
by Requiem on Aug 20, 2008 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i will agree
that i am conservative, yes.
am i right wing? helllll no.
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 7:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pardon me for asking
but what’s the difference?
R
by Requiem on Aug 21, 2008 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Republican conservatives..
Republican conservatives (generally speaking) are conservative on moral issues but not necessarily on economic issues.
Think gay marriage — that is a “moral/religious/social” issue. They are very conservative here in that it was illegal in the past, and should stay illegal.
Then think economic issues, tax breaks — Lowering taxes to increase revenue is considered liberal economic thought.
The real issue is that the “left/right” argument makes politics seem like a single dimensional realm, when really it should be considered, at minimum, as two-dimensional.
The Republicans and Democrats fight to keep it this way with conservatives at one end and liberals on the other, because otherwise you would need 5 parties — one for the middle, and one for each of the 4 corners.
With a two party system, and a single dimentional line (right or left), a third party doesn’t make sense. So long as you can sell it like that, a third party will have difficulty forming until the two parties are truly identical… at which point it’s still a two party system anyways.
by Trickman on Aug 22, 2008 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wrong
anyone who votes like a liberal or has the same views as a liberal is a liberal.
to me, abortion is not a religious issue, it's a common sense one...
by Longhorn on Aug 20, 2008 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same goes for a conservative...
if you vote conservative and have conservative views then you’re conservative. The difference is that the “liberal” media hasn’t turned the term “conservative” into a dirty word like it has done with the term “liberal”.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
eh
conservative is a dirty word too. You’re just more sensitive to one than the other.
Right now, you aren’t doing yourself any favors by labeling yourself as either conservative or liberal. “Moderate” and “independent” are the real winners in the media right now.
My problem is with the glorification of the “independent” voter. Am I supposed to think more of someone because they can’t make up their mind or are so insecure in their beliefs that an ad or two will change their minds? If you are a liberal or conservative, and know what you believe, then I have respect for you. When you’re a wishy-washy moderate who picks based on some ad you see two days before election day, well, I think you’re a problem.
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree...
I think conservative is seen as a “good” word by many. McCain and many of the other republican nominees have gone out of their way to show how they are “conservative” and what to be viewed as so. No dem wants to be seen or viewed as “liberal”. They avoid that term like the plague.
Your first point is correct though. I’m more sensitive to the term liberal. It drives me nuts that “liberal” is seen as a bad thing.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
it is seen by a good word to conservatives, of course. Among liberals, is “liberal” considered a bad word? Not really. But that is because McCain is widely considered a moderate. So unlike most elections, he is having to run to his right rather than towards the middle. Obama, on the other hand, doesn’t have to gain liberal street cred, so he is wisely trying to act moderate in the race.
Also, I think part of it has to do with “liberal” meaning different things to different people, so even someone who is liberal on some issues is likely conservative on others. A true “liberal” isn’t that common, whereas true “conservatives” are more common. So if 80% of people consider themselves conservative on some issues, whereas only 50% consider themselves liberal on some issues, then it is smarter to vocalize your conservative tendencies
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 6:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no problem...
with the word conservative. If someone truly is conservative then they should not have a problem with that label. I have no problem with the liberal label. I don’t feel either one should be seen as “dirty words”.
In response to below, I think your point is valid, but I think the media plays into it as well. One of my biggest problems with the dem party is that they have no backbone. If the dems did get rid of the people that made the term “liberal” look like a bad thing it would greatly improve the situation.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
also
I do agree that the term “liberal” has been co-opted by a bad image (stems from thoughts of half-dressed people at Woodstock, the’68 dem convention, hollywood actors visiting North Vietnam and now Iran, michael moore, cynthia mckinney). Generally, the type of people most vocal that they are “liberal” are not what your average American wants to relate to.
I would disagree that this is the media’s fault. Rather, I think that the Democratic Party and rational true liberals have done a bad job of forcing the wacko’s out of their party. For example, the Republicans made it clear that Pat Buchanan and David Duke weren’t welcome, the Democrats should do the same with the people that make “liberal” look bad. You know who they are – get rid of them.
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on, homey
“My problem is with the glorification of the "independent" voter. Am I supposed to think more of someone because they can’t make up their mind or are so insecure in their beliefs that an ad or two will change their minds? If you are a liberal or conservative, and know what you believe, then I have respect for you. When you’re a wishy-washy moderate who picks based on some ad you see two days before election day, well, I think you’re a problem.”
I think that is a pretty poor summary of an independent voter. You sounded like Huck there, broheim.
I’m a indomoderatabertarian. Not really, I just thunk that up 5 secs ago, but still. I like some conservative principles, some liberal. Socially, I’m very liberal. Fiscally, I’m moderately conservative. Some crime I’m more open-minded about than others. Regarding foreign policy, I’m of the but-out-buttinsky school of thought. Same with firearms and gun control. Corporate regulations? I’m da mayor of Buttinskyville.
By your implication, I’m a thoughtless, spineless dufus that blows with the wind.
Not so, my friend. And I don’t think that is a fair characterization of most moderates. I’d actually assert it is just the opposite, that the hard core at both ends are the ones that are more likely to be a little arrears in the critical thinking department.
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on Aug 20, 2008 8:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
I was going to post a lot of the same thoughts in response to this bad characterization of independents stolen from some bad comedian’s routine.
To use JBImaknee’s argument, I think less of those who ARE members of one of the two major parties. Instead of making up their own mind based on policies and character, they vote and think like the party hacks tell them to.
Moderates are most certainly not “wishy-washy”. The world is not black and white, it is mostly gray. The biggest problems facing the country will not be solved by simplistic soundbite answers. They will require complex solutions and compromise. Looking for candidates of either party that are willing to roll up their sleeves and work with the other party for the good of the country is not being wishy washy or insecure. It is you who are insecure.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 20, 2008 11:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't saying all moderates are wishy-washy
One can have a set of opinions that differ with both parties. That is fine, admirable, and probably describes most of us
But the media does glorify the “independent voter” as if there is something inherently better about that. And people say “I haven’t decided who to vote for yet” condescendingly, as if there is something wrong and shallow with agreeing too much with either side. That is my problem with it – the glorification of being “undecided” (I admit should have used that word, not "moderate").
by JBImaknee on Aug 21, 2008 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Independent voter
Largely a myth.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is
that as a person who likely holds views that sometime agree with one party and sometime agree with the other party, you have to figure out which issues are the most important to you at that time, and most of the time the figuring out takes time.
There really isn’t any alternative to the two major parties, unfortunately, where you KNOW that one of the parties agrees with you on most issues. So, it takes us, moderates, independents, a longer time to figure out who to vote for.
For me, it’s been relatively easy, but I can see how some moderates and independents take a longer time to sort through it.
Of course, what with McCain’s complete flip-flop on seemingly everything EXCEPT the Iraq War (which I disagree with), it’s become very easy for me to support Obama (though I have some concerns there also).
If the choice had been between the McCain of 2000 and Obama, it would definitely have taken me some time to try to choose.
R
by Requiem on Aug 21, 2008 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure
What the problem is with “flip-flopping”.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 6:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and dont forget about obama's flip-flopping as well lol
people SO often tend to say look at mccains or obamas but never at both haha
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would hope
that both men would be eager to change their positions if new information or analysis warranted doing so. I absolutely abhor charges of “flip-flopping” from either party.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 10:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
but ppl often say “oh, look at mccains flipflopping!” or “obama flipflopped on X issue”
and ignore the other candidates
+1 on new info changing opinions
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well, there is flip flopping
for good reasons as information changes, and then there is being stupid about it.
Hillary supported the war at first, and then says that we should be out of there because we aren’t doing any good and the justification wasn’t what she had been led to believe. You may not agree with her, but she didn’t “flip flop” – her information changed, so her view changed. Bid deal
John Kerry’s flip-flopping was less justified, however, and probably deserved the ridicule it got. Saying things like “i voted for the war before I voted against it,” besides being just a stupid thing to say, wreaks of hedging your bets politically, so it comes across as someone who is afraid to take a stand for fear of angering people. Which itself indicates poor leadership.
by JBImaknee on Aug 21, 2008 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No...
It indicates how the Senate actually works, which most people haven’t the time or inclination to care about. That’s not his fault.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing
As long as there’s a logical reason behind the flip-flopping.
McCain’s flip-flops seem to have been almost solely political expediency.
http://howinsaneisjohnmccain.blogspot.com/2008/03/mccain-never-met-position-he-didnt-like.html
Obama’s “flip-flops” for the most part have not been actual flip-flops, but nuanced positions which weren’t articulated by the media because it didn’t make a good sound bite.
The major one that I agree Obama flip-flopped on was campaign financing.
But when it comes to number of flip-flops not to mention core issue flip-flops, McCain blows Obama out of the water. But I don’t expect right-wingers to see things outside their red-colored glasses.
R
by Requiem on Aug 21, 2008 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
x
“Political expediency”
Still trying to figure out what’s wrong with that.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem
with Political expediency, is that there’s no long term plan in place. If you flow with the winds of what is currently popular, you’re not looking to fix any of the MANY long-term issues that this country has.
It’s the reason why Social Security, Medicare, etc. continue on and on despite the developing realization that eventually, somebody’s going to get screwed by the system.
It’s the way that the current Executive Branch manipulated the Legislative Branch to allow them way more powers than they are allowed.
R
by Requiem on Aug 21, 2008 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like
Social Security, Medicare, Health Care, School System, National Debt, Immigration Reform, Employee Retraining, Energy Dependency, Environment Issues
And now that I’ve repeatedly answered your questions, here’s a question of my own.
Why is Changing your mind a good thing if it’s SOLELY for political expediency?
R
by Requiem on Aug 22, 2008 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I never said it was a good thing.
And I should have been more clear—“like what?” was regarding your last sentence.
None of those things you’ve listed are under control of the executive, unless you tie in the President’s budget with the national debt.
by brettgardner on Aug 22, 2008 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Executive power
The increase in use of signing statements, executive orders, withholding evidence and refusing to testify or appear in congressional hearings under the ever-extending umbrella of “executive privilege”, the entire idea of all that has gone on at Guantanamo and the way they’ve handled arrests and trials of “noncombatants”, off the top of my head.
Bush and Cheney show an incredible disdain for checks and balances and a lot of impatience with due process.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 22, 2008 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But
None of those things were the result of manipulation of the Legislative, they just flow from a philosophy Bush has (unitary executive).
That’s not to say that any of those things are “right” or “wrong”, but they didn’t come from manipulation.
by brettgardner on Aug 22, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on
That’s a load of crock.
You’re implying it by saying:
"Political expediency"
Still trying to figure out what’s wrong with that.
Stop playing semantics and actually talk about an issue. While I like to hear myself speak, I also like to discuss other people’s viewpoints too.
I do NOT like be subjected to a pseudo-interrogation and then when I ask what your viewpoints are on topics, you refuse to say anything of substance.
While questioning of other’s viewpoints is valid and can contribute to the conversation, if you refuse to provide your own viewpoints, it seems like you’re just trying to “catch” someone with an “a-ha” moment where you can refute whatever semantic argument you can find.
While that might be good for “debate,” it’s horrible if you’re actually trying to gain insight into a topic.
I’m not going to respond to you, until you provide your viewpoint as well, as there’s no point to me trying to supply some person who seems to get his jollies from trying to find semantic arguments to “disprove” others’ points of views.
R
by Requiem on Aug 26, 2008 6:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
nothing wrong with that
you need someone to get you your breakfast, lunch, and dinner…
to me, abortion is not a religious issue, it's a common sense one...
by Longhorn on Aug 20, 2008 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only way Obama can win this election IMO
is if he selects Hilary as his VP. But I don’t think he wants to do that too much ego on one ticket.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 10:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i dont think he can win with hillary
shes too polarizing
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
I think a lot of her followers are going to vote for McCain.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You listen to too much Neo-Con talk radio
by robert_d_wilfong on Aug 20, 2008 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't listen to any actually
I guess you do though to know that that’s what they say on it.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
pay me
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Aug 20, 2008 11:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Threads like this
Are why I’m interested in the procedure, not the results. Results gets you 200 goofy opinions that could all be shortened to “Your side sucks :P”
by brettgardner on Aug 20, 2008 11:05 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah...
I found some of the previous threads insightful, but this one just gave me a headache.
Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.
by TheBZA on Aug 20, 2008 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You were expecting
a calm and reasoned discussion of the issues in a sharky thread?
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't just him
This turd spiraled down the crapper rather quickly.
Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.
by TheBZA on Aug 20, 2008 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally,
I do everything in my power to push a Sharky thread spiraling down the crapper.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
Next time I’ll help.
Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.
by TheBZA on Aug 20, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
here's what pisses me off
to have a say or presence in every conflict taking place anywere in the world…..i mean i know that’s good and all …but isn’t that just creating hatred for our men out there……we want democracy in the region and all..but how about asking the people if they want democracy or not……. i mean here’s a war were we just took out a saddam and repleaced him with maliki(( iranian backed president )) …….seriously that too through the democratic process……and doing this for the protection of other middle -east countries who’s people basically hate us for doing it :P
by xav_imran on Aug 20, 2008 11:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
random question
but do you support ron pauls foreign policy?
(have a friend whose a huge RP guy and has made some of those exact comments before)
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll set
the current odds at
51% chance Obama wins
49% chance McCain wins.
You know I, like many other conservatives, was skeptical about McCain until that Saddleback Forum the other night. He sounded great, like a leader.
"You can't reason with your heart; it has its own laws, and thumps about things which the intellect scorns." - from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, by Mark Twain
by dstar442005 on Aug 20, 2008 11:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep...and didn't cop out with an 'above my pay grade' answer...
I’ll say it will end up something like this, again…

to me, abortion is not a religious issue, it's a common sense one...
by Longhorn on Aug 20, 2008 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you think it ends up like 04 again?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
love that graphic
"You can't reason with your heart; it has its own laws, and thumps about things which the intellect scorns." - from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, by Mark Twain
by dstar442005 on Aug 20, 2008 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You mean
You just realized that you have no other option than voting for the devil worshiping Democrats, correct?
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wha?
I said McCain.
"You can't reason with your heart; it has its own laws, and thumps about things which the intellect scorns." - from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, by Mark Twain
by dstar442005 on Aug 20, 2008 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You misunderstood me.
I was simply saying that you’re voting for McCain because he’s the non-Democrat.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no
what led you to say that and what did it contribute to the discussion? I vote for McCain because he is more pro life than Obama
his foreign policy is better
he’s for vouchers
he’s against socialized healthcare
he’s economically better IMO (especially if Romney is VP)
he doesn’t tell me I’m clinging to my guns and religion.
"You can't reason with your heart; it has its own laws, and thumps about things which the intellect scorns." - from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, by Mark Twain
by dstar442005 on Aug 20, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You see
This is the thing about politics, there is no middle ground. Either you believe/support those thing/ideals or not. You’re not going to change a Democrats view and a Democrat isn’t going to change a Republican’s view; therefore, most political discussion is pointless. (Unless you’re an independent)
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
someone in the last political thread
said i was being close minded for that…lol
but i agree with you – cant changepeoples minds very easily!
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
People just have to agree to disagree when it comes to politics
There’s no real right or wrong when it comes to the issues, there’s only the majority.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
I believe there are absolute rights and wrongs if you want to get down to it.
"You can't reason with your heart; it has its own laws, and thumps about things which the intellect scorns." - from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, by Mark Twain
by dstar442005 on Aug 20, 2008 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone has those
And they depend on how you were brought up, your belief system, your emotions, etc. This is why the 2 party system doesn’t work.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM
by Jayslick on Aug 20, 2008 11:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Now we have to deal with your
shtick again?
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 20, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM
by Jayslick on Aug 22, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Finally I feel like Obama is not very bright, therefore his campaign, probably run by a bunch of affirmative action unqualified minorities . . . "
Right, because that is how he got into Harvard law without noting race on his application (though I don’t know if he did an in-person interview which would render the fact he didn’t check a box on his app meaningless).
More to the point, he was elected editor of the law review by his peers, they don’t do that if you aren’t bright
I guess that is my longwinded way of saying you sir are an idiot
by thedudeabides on Aug 20, 2008 11:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i am pretty damn sure
that harvard doesnt take too many people without doing in-person interviews…
its sharky. dont take it personally
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Makes him sound racist
Maybe you should take it personally.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its sharky
he has been spouting off since this was an ESPN board IIRC
gotta take it w/ a grain of salt
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't think harvard law does in person interviews unless you request one
most law schools don’t
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Aug 20, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i know yale does
and chicago so i just presumed that yale did…
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
chicago does not
i’m going there now. some people get interviewed but i think that is like an extra screening process that borderline candidates might get. anyway, none of my friends got interviewed
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Aug 20, 2008 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ahhh
come to think about it one of my friends went to visit and had an optional interview — same one that went to yale so not 100% sure then?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 20, 2008 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and looking at the website
doesn’t look like yale does either. the only one i remember having an extensive interview program was northwestern and it’s optional there too. any other lawyers ever have in person interviews?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Aug 20, 2008 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don’t think they are required there either, but I didn’t apply to Yale Law
by thedudeabides on Aug 20, 2008 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i just looked
the website says they do phone interviews. But I just asked my friend who graduated a couple of years ago and he never got interviewed by phone or otherwise
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on Aug 20, 2008 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually
they do, interview was optional when I applied to harvard law
by thedudeabides on Aug 20, 2008 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Summer Polling, For What It's Worth
None of it matters until after both conventions are over. The only role of pre-convention polling is to give unimaginative journalists something to fill air time and column space.
McCain’s movement in front of Obama in one poll (out of many) is interesting, though. He’s been hitting Obama hard and Obama’s not been hitting back. It’s not as bad as Kerry giving the Swift Boat frauds a free pass in the summer of ’04, but it is similar.
by Mister Naxal on Aug 20, 2008 12:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Obama would be going back on his word if he were to hit back at McCain
He considers it the old style of politics, where the character of the person is debated more heavily than the issues. The issues w’ont be brought up until there is a 1 on 1 debate, only after a series of those will the polls point towards a conceivable outcome.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Agree Somewhat
I agree with you somewhat, hiafex. At the same time, I also think that there’s a time coming in this campaign when Team Obama is going to have to decide if they want to choose a new style of politics or if they want to win this election.
The main polling issue Obama has faced this last month is that going negative resonates with voters. Sad to say, but it does. Old style of politics or not, if the Republicans are successful in framing him right now, it’s going to be very tough for him to overcome that post-convention without a huge convention bounce. Looking at the pool of VPs the media are clamoring over and around, they all look like rally killers to me. Biden? Yawn. Sebelius? Who? Kaine. Yikes! The only three people out there who I think could give the ticket a real charge are Mark Warner, Jim Webb and Wes Clark. Warner’s running for Senate, Webb’s in the Senate and Clark has been made persona non grata for pulling back the curtains on John McCain a little too quickly.
The problem Obama faces right now is that this is the time period where you set the frame for what comes after the conventions. In 2004, John Kerry was framed as a wind surfing elitist and a combat faker during the summer months leading up to the convention. Because Bob Shrum lost his balls somewhere in the 1980s, he counseled taking the high road and doing nothing. There was little to no push back until after the convention, and by then the damage was already done. Kerry spent the entire Fall leading up to the election trying to answer or overcome the Swift Boat fraud and the out-of-touch elitist framing instead of staking out his own positions versus Bush’s.
You’ve got to play offense to win the Presidency as a non-incumbent. If you’re an incumbent, you can play defense and still win. I think it would be great if we could have a political system where we argue the merits of various positions on the issues and decide that way. We’re a long way from that, however. My fear is that we’re getting to a 2004esque point where there’s too much turning of the other cheek and not enough knuckle sandwiches. In my opinion, you’ve got to throw some punches to win. That’s what sets the frames and that’s what drives persuadable voters on Election Day.
by Mister Naxal on Aug 20, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I understand what you're saying
But I’d like to see a politician stick to his word and go through with what he said. I despise seeing the presidential campaigns deteriorate into a he-said he-said argument where the winner is decided by who can come up with the best “yo party” jokes (like yo momma jokes but revised for politics).
I’m sorry, I think I’ve lost faith in the political system and the people who continue to support it.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Understand
I completely understand, hiafex. I’ve done some paid campaign work and a lot of volunteering on campaigns so I tend to take a very clinical approach to talking about campaigns. That approach doesn’t leave much room for whether or not our contemporary system of elections is good for the country or whether or not the way we conduct our elections is a worthy institution.
My feeling on those last two points is pretty much your feeling on the overall political system.
by Mister Naxal on Aug 20, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait
I thought the wingnuts were convinced Obama was the AntiChrist. Literally the AntiChrist. And if he’s the AntiChrist, doesn’t he HAVE to win?
by SteveP on Aug 20, 2008 12:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I hope so
How are we going to get to the rapture without an Anti-christ?
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 20, 2008 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whenever I think of the rapture
I think of Ned Flanders looking out his window and seeing Homer in what he thinks is Heaven.
Exasperated, he turns his eyes upward and says, “Looks like Heaven is easier to get into than Arizona State!”
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Aug 20, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For those of you
that think McCain is going to be better with the economy, what are you basing that on? I’m probably a bit naive because this is going to be the first one i can vote in, but I just dont understand how you can stick another Republican in there when Bush has brought this country to the edge of recession.
"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno
LSB facebook group ---->>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33345329288
by hinduplaya on Aug 20, 2008 3:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
re:
And Pres. Bush is at fault for the country to be at ‘the edge of recession’?
to me, abortion is not a religious issue, it's a common sense one...
by Longhorn on Aug 20, 2008 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he certainly doesn't escape blame...
I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA
by ivysafety39 on Aug 20, 2008 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spend, cut taxes, print money, repeat
That probably does it.
by robert_d_wilfong on Aug 20, 2008 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how many presidents have left office
with a surplus?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 7:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only the one that preceeded the current one who has racked up record deficits
That’s not a real good argument.
by robert_d_wilfong on Aug 21, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The last two times
the national debt decreased were during the Clinton and Carter administrations.
arrgh, I can’t get pdf files to open right now for some reason on a link to the whitehouse.gov site, but I found the same chart at wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_debt_by_U.S._presidential_terms
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep,
if you want shrinking federal debt, relative to GDP, you pretty much have to vote Democrat.
The Republicans only economic plan since Ronald Reagan is the one George Bush the Elder called “Voodoo Economics”. Basicly, borrow a ton of money, spend it, enjoy the good economy, and don’t worry so much about the bills. I know a lot of wives who have the same economic plan.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ironic
considering Reagan’s campaign fomenting about the deficit.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
But, even Goebbel’s knew, the Big Lie works. Just watch the current Republicans and little Spin Machines they have with Hannity, Limbaugh and others.
The facts are out there in the open. Republicans don’t cut spending. We saw it 2000-2006. They just borrow and spend rather than tax and spend. They spend on different things, but they don’t cut spending.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And if you want
big gov’t and a ton of taxes switch to Democrats too! Yay.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 21, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you want
Big Government and a ton of Borrowing, switch to Republicans, Yay!
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I repeat
the only administrations since WWII to decrease the deficit were Carter and Clinton. The GOP doesn’t have a leg to stand on in the fiscal responsibility argument any more than the democrats.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hard to put much stock in that
Considering the rather radical change in policy since that time.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not sure
what you mean. I’m not saying that the democrats have better fiscal policies or have handled the economy or tax policy better. I’m just pointing out the fallacy of the GOP’s claims that they are for smaller government.
After adjusting for inflation, Carter actually managed it 3 years in a row.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I'm saying is
Our monetary system has undergone several radical changes in that time, so I’m not sure that looking at nothing but deficit or surplus is an adequate indicator of anything, and that’s to say nothing of the various exigent circumstances in a particular administration or time period.
It’s exceedingly difficult to compare Presidents in terms of accomplishments or failures. It’s much easier to compare them in terms of vision and response.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That makes little sense at all.
That makes as little sense as saying you can’t say the ’29 Yankees were better than the 2002 Devilrays because of the radical changes in Baseball, and you need to compare the teams based on vision and response.
Budgets are Budgets. Leadership can either keep a lid on spending, or it can’t. Republican leadership has often shown itself to be spineless in the face of spending. So are the Democrats, but at least they raise the revenues to cover their spending, rather than passing it down the line.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
x
That makes as little sense as saying you can’t say the ’29 Yankees were better than the 2002 Devilrays because of the radical changes in Baseball, and you need to compare the teams based on vision and response.
Yep…were you assuming that I wouldn’t agree with that? I find it an equally sound argument. Everything exists in the context of its time. That doesn’t magically disappear because of partisanship.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, let me be the first to say it then
the ’29 Yankees would kick the 2002 Devilrays ass.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK.
Now, as a corollary to what I said, the difficulty of comparison is obviously lessened the closer to overlap you come.
Budgets don’t exist in isolation, as much as it may help your argument to assume they do.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Over 4 and 8 year periods
the economy has its ups and downs. Now if you want to say that budgets from the ‘30s had special circumstances, I’d agree with you.
However, I think its fairly easy to say its been a roughly level playing field for the governments of the last 50 years. The Republicans have built up a very good track record that shows that they are no foe of big government. They talk a better game than the Democrats, but they play like the 2002 Devilrays when it comes to fiscal discipline.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you
Don’t think it’s wise to borrow on interest even if involves military defense or actual war, no matter what the growth or job figures are?
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even though the war is costing a hell of a lot
…the budget deficit dwarfs it.
by Black Francis on Aug 21, 2008 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't following closely enough
You’re speaking in general terms and I was talking about the current situation. The point was that even though the war has been very expensive, the tax cuts and other increased spending are an even bigger problem. And the debt is starting to become a real problem for not only the long run, but the short term as well.
In general, I have nothing against running a budget deficit if there’s a recession or threat of one. That’s sound economics.
And that’s the problem with what’s going on now. We’re in so much debt that we’re removing that option from the toolbox. What are we going to do in the future? Run $750 billion or even a trillion to keep GDP from falling? The fucking peso would be worth more than the USD if that went on too long. Well maybe a bit of hyperbole there, but you understand.
by Black Francis on Aug 21, 2008 8:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It'd be wise
to tax the populace to help pay for defense or war. Should be someone sacrificing other than the troops.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Even
If the economy can’t sustain it?
It takes more than platitudes to run a country.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 9:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which is more important?
the short term economy or winning the war? This is the only war that has not been supported by raising taxes and selling of war bonds, etc. In an earlier post (shit, distracted by watching Predator, sucker for some movies)…
somewhere in this ridiculous thread I think you mentioned short term deficits as being entirely defensible for special circumstances. I agree. War is one of them, and I think the Bush admin as been irresponsible by trying to hide the cost of the war by not paying for it, and by trying to hide the cost of it.
It smacks of when my 2-yr. old tries to hide the mess she made by covering it up with a blanket or something.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Winning the war?
What’s that mean?
Also, there is a fantastic book called “War and Taxes” which addresses the very point you make.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
who
wrote it?
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
3 guys
Steven Bank, Kirk Stark, and Joseph Thorndike. Couple of law professors and a tax guy.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the '02 Devil Rays
would kick the ’08 NeoCons ass.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are there such a thing as
’08 NeoCons?
I think they got contracted…
by JBImaknee on Aug 21, 2008 5:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
They refused
to sign, wanted a $3 trillion bonus and a lifetime contract.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 10:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cutting taxes + Starting a war = Recession
I’m pretty sure Bush cut taxes… and started a couple of wars, so…. Yup, it’s his fault we’re in a recession. He should have adjusted his tax cutting strategy the moment he thought about sending troops into Afghanistan.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 5:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cutting taxes doesn't really start recessions
you may want to study your macro-economic books. It does raise the national debt if not coupled with spending cuts, which long term is not a smart strategy, but short term you don’t see recessions from tax cuts.
However, you mix Bush’s tax cuts without raising interest rates (really Alan Greenspan’s fault, but he was Bush’s appointee), then you get a big economic bubble due to inflation. Now, at first, inflation wasn’t in milk prices or other consumer goods, but it was realized in the housing market bubble. And that led to an unstable situation (obviously), with no oversight (another Bush mistake), and the utter collapse of the housing market, which took the financial markets with them. Low interest rates + tax cuts → housing bubble → bubble pops —> recession.
It ANGERS me that people attribute the current economic situation to “cutting taxes”. That has nothing to do with it. The problem was that Bush didn’t build a fiscal policy around cutting taxes, he simply cut taxes.
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought taxes are paid towards the government
And fund everything they do. If so, then cutting taxes leads to less money for the government and less money to pay for a war. But there was a war, and spending increased to pay for that war, so I don’t understand why what I said was incorrect. Unless Bush cut spending in other areas to compensate for the money spent on the war that I’m not aware of?
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you said
“Cutting taxes + Starting a war = Recession”
Historically, both of those things have a tendency to boost economies, not hurt them.
Maybe both were bad decisions – but I don’t think either is to blame for the economy. The effect of deficit spending (which is what your two examples leads to), is far longer-term than one administration. Incidentally, this is why it is politically expedient to do just that.
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ahhhh, I understand
I was confusing the term recession with deficit spending. Meant to talk about the huge debt that the current regime has accrued. Does deficit spending have any effect on the economy?
I’m pretty sure that the enormous gas prices and neglection of funding for research in other forms of energy has a lot more to do with the slowing down of the economy. You could blame the war on Iraq for taking funds fromm that research I suppose.
See? I linked Bush/cutting taxes/starting a war to the slow down of the economy. :]
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Cutting taxes, in itself, does not lead to a recession.
Cutting taxes, in itself, is not a bad thing.
Cutting taxes along with runaway spending, is really bad in the long term (and sometimes short term) and much worse than raising taxes with spending.
Of course, sometimes, I get the feeling that this debate is really a debate of old vs. young.
This is probably an overgeneralization, but I get the feeling that the old wants the benefits of the cutting taxes AND the benefits of that spending (strong military and Medicare/Medicaid/Social Security) and who cares about the future.
Obviously, there are exceptions and it’s certainly quite possible that this impression is incorrect, but that’s the general feeling I have from looking at what people are willing to talk about and argue against.
R
by Requiem on Aug 20, 2008 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't even get me started on social security
which I consider simply a 12% tax on my income that I’ll never see again. Ugh.
This is my #1 sense of discouragement with both parties. SS will never get fixed because whoever starts a rational reform process ends up exposing themselves to attack by the other party. Bush half-heartedly tried, and got lambasted for no good reason. Rather than fixing an obviously broken system, the Democrats started saying “It’s not broken! Bush just wants to take away your monthly check,” so Bush gave up (that is the one issue he caves on… geez…). But it isn’t a one sided deal – the Republicans do the exact same thing when Democrats try to fix obviously broken systems. They are more interested in stabbing each other in the back than running this country.
They’re all crooks.
by JBImaknee on Aug 20, 2008 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly
I dont even see Social Security remaining for that long. It just sparks too much controversy
"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno
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by hinduplaya on Aug 20, 2008 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except that sometimes it seems that the only thing that sparks more controversy than the SS system
is the prospect of doing something about the problems with SS system.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Aug 21, 2008 2:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and we shouldn't look for that to change
with the baby boomers aging.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is
the “half-hearted try” that Bush proposed is to turn over the nation’s retirement to the same folks who brought us the subprime mortgage situation.
The current system of essentially investing in treasuries probably works as well as anything if the cap gets lifted, and the US stops relying on the Republican plan of Borrow and spend for their major economic program. If there is a rational expectation that Treasuries will be repaid, and that we aren’t going to default on our loans, or inflate our way out of it, treasuries are fine. Unfortunately, I’m not sure it will be fine with Republicans running up long term debt for current obligations.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I too have reservations about the government investing in stocks
not as much the stability of the financial companies that stand to benefit, but with the corruption that will emerge if the government is investing in the markets. Both parties are so corrupt that they couldn’t resist tampering with the process to push their agenda’s or line their pockets. The last thing I want is people playing politics with my savings.
But I am too libertarian in my fiscal views to accept the current situation. If social security is a government mandated retirement savings plan, then I should have the liberty to control how I want it invested, at least to a degree. However, if government is a tax to support retired people (as it really appears to me), then say that is what it is.
Also, increasing the cap is only a short term solution – when those people with their raised cap retire, they should get the payout on their full contribution. Unless you raise the cap on the contributions but don’t raise the cap on payouts. At which point it is just a tax on the wealthy.
by JBImaknee on Aug 21, 2008 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Social Security
is a tax to support poor Retired people. Any idea that its a saving plans are laughable.
The only fix is to up the retirement age, and up the cap. Its not a good solution, but I can’t see any other plan working. Personally, I’d like to see SS abolished, but that ain’t happening.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
abolish the current system
and make them actual retirement accounts, with balances and all rights of ownership, so everyone will be interested in them. the current system is doomed unless we bring in a LOT more immigrants. and let’s not forget that medicare is an even bigger problem.
by SteveP on Aug 21, 2008 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Biden...
I would love it if Obama took Joe as his VP. He’s probably the only dem candidate that I would have liked to have seen win over Obama. I don’t agree with 100% of where he stands on the issues, but it’s hard to do so with 1 person. I think Biden would be a great choice.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 5:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it would show that Obama is weak on the issues that he deems most important
The Iraqi war and bringing change to Washington. Appointing Biden as the veep would contradict most of what Obama says he stands for.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree...
I think Obama’s biggest problem is his experience, or lack thereof, and Biden would help balance that out.
Agree to disagree.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I would like to see a veep who has experience as well, but I don’t think it’s important enough to where you disregard Biden’s stance on the War in Iraq.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
?
I’m not exactly sure what you’re arguing.
Are you saying that you dislike an veep who voted for the War in Iraq? Or is there some other point you’re trying to make?
R
by Requiem on Aug 20, 2008 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm saying that
Obama harped on how his decision making was head and shoulders above his colleagues due to the fact that he opposed the War in Iraq. Choosing a veep who supported the War in Iraq would make many question why he thought opposing the War was such a big deal in the first place. Most people would view Obama as a flip-flopper and desert him.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmmmm
Ok, I see your argument.
I don’t think it’s a valid assertion, though.
Yes, Obama has stated that he was against the Iraq war from the very start, but that hasn’t been the main thrust of his arguments. Not by a long shot.
And Biden, though he DID vote for the Iraq war, has become an ardent opponent of the war (or more specifically on how the war was handled), and he HAS ADMITTED HIS MISTAKE in supporting the war.
I think Clinton would give much more of a sense of flip-flopping since she has still not acknowledged that even voting for the war was a mistake.
So, that’s my reasoning on why I think Biden won’t be perceived that way. I DO have concerns about his penchant for spouting off before he thinks things through, but that’s something they’re likely going to have to work out between themselves.
R
by Requiem on Aug 20, 2008 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't really matter who is chosen as the veep
McCain will continue berating the Obama ticket. I just wish this kind of politicking would end. It’s uncivilized and doesn’t focus on the issues, makes the whole of America look bad to the rest of the world.
by hiafex on Aug 20, 2008 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats politics
(unfortunatly)
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 7:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still don't think voting for the war was a mistake
Traditionally, you back diplomacy with the threat of military force or economic sanctions. We really couldn’t sanction Iraq any more, so the threat of force was the way to go if you believed the intelligence that the White House was giving Congress.
It worked. Hussein let the inspectors back in, and they stayed longer and were given more access than they had been for years. Then Bush got ugly, told the inspectors to get out, and launched an invasion.
This is what I assume happened…I cannot pretend to have any facts to back it up:
As time went on the Administration was worried that the UN Inspection regime would embarrass them by not finding anything. They probably assumed they’d find SOMETHING. Almost any evidence would’ve been enough to go to war for these people. When it became evident that Iraq had not reconstituted any kind of large scale WMD programs, they figured they’d find some kind of evidence on the ground during the invasion or subsequent occupation. And boy did they try.
As much as I dislike Bush and question his judgment, I don’t think there would have been an invasion if the White House really thought Iraq had substantial numbers of chemical and biological weapons. Not even they would want to subject our troops to that if there were any diplomatic solution available. If Iraq had weapons, they would have used them.
Anyway, Congress was just backing the Commander-in-Chief. Republicans and Democrats alike, based on the information they were given, made the right vote. It was Bush who took advantage of it. I bet if you were to have a private and frank discussion with a Republican representative or Senator, not even they would be happy about all this.
And that’s why I don’t have a problem with Democrats who made the vote, or most Republicans who did. I think those in the Republican leadership probably knew more, but who knows? As inept as Congress is, I have a hard time believing that most of them actually thought it would come to the point at which we would invade, topple the government, and occupy. Maybe I’m being naive.
In any event, unless a formal declaration of war is passed by Congress, then the buck stops in the Oval Office. Period.
by Black Francis on Aug 20, 2008 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree strongly
1) We were already tied up in a war in Afghanistan.
2) We were joining in a PREEMPTIVE war where we didn’t have all the information. A recipe for disaster as we have now seen.
3) We were threatening with very few attempts at diplomacy at the time.
4) There was EXTREMELY LITTLE solid evidence that Saddam had these WMDs.
5) They provided the President a carte blanche to essentially entail us in this war at his whim.
Also, you seem to cede responsibility of declaration of war pretty quickly. It is, I repeat, NOT the authority of the Oval Office which allows us to go to war, but CONGRESS which has that power. The buck stopped with CONGRESS wrt a war, and they passed on their traditional power to the Oval Office.
R
by Requiem on Aug 20, 2008 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you mostly
I always thought the war was a mistake. And while there was very little evidence that Iraq had reconstituted large scale programs, given Hussein’s history and the fact that it had been a while since inspectors were there, I can see where there were concerns. These concerns could only be addressed if the regime were threatened with force. When Congress did authorize force, they were saying to Hussein that “we mean business”. This vote was made well before the actual invasion, and if I’m not mistaken, right around the time that UN inspectors entered Iraq.
The problem lies with the White House, first for distorting the intelligence that was presented to Congress, second for abusing the power that Congress granted them, third for not having a plan to wage war beyond the initial offensive, and on and on.
This is opinion, but I do not believe that the majority of Congressmen WANTED to go to war, in spite of the fact that they authorized it. Authorizing force gave some serious bite to our diplomacy, and if inspections were allowed to continue we probably wouldn’t be having this discussion. Bush and company is ultimately to blame. He’s the one who gave the order to go.
by Black Francis on Aug 20, 2008 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with parts of what you say
Particularly with the culpability of the White House.
I do NOT think that lets Congress off the hook for doing what they did.
1) There had been VERY LITTLE diplomacy involved, just a lot of saber-rattling by Bush. If you think that warrants giving Bush a carte blanche to engage in essentially the first offensive war in the history of our nation, I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree.
2) I found it really hard at the time to believe that a country which has endured severe sanctions for 11 years would be able to find the resources within 3 years of those same severe sanctions to produce a program of WMD that we should be afraid of.
3) Maybe I would feel more charitable toward Congress, if they hadn’t been simply parroting the White House, over and over and basically follow like lemmings wherever the President led. Take a look at what those Congressmen said when they defended the vote for war authorization. They were repeating the same lines over and over that the administration had used to defend their vote.
4) The President is given some leeway with regards to forceful attacks. It is NOT an all-or-nothing thing (cf. War Powers Resolution). There was no reason to give the President carte blanche to declare war, UNLESS YOU WERE WILLING TO GO TO WAR. If you don’t want to go to war, DON’T VOTE FOR IT.
R
by Requiem on Aug 20, 2008 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Devil's Advocate
I’m taking a little bit of the devil’s advocate position when it comes to Congress. The facts are what they are. The law is what it is. But reality is what reality is, too, and it was a difficult political climate to vote against the authorization.
I still don’t think most of them meant to go to war. Bush had only been in office for a couple of years, and perhaps many in Congress thought he was more of a statesman than he actually was. There really wasn’t much diplomacy to be made, but it was good to get those inspectors in after a lengthy absence. The threat of force is not only what got them there, but got them the access that they had. The “Mission Accomplished” speech could have been made after another month or two of them poking around.
I always doubted they’d find much of anything, too.
Obviously, if Congress hadn’t voted the way they did, we would not be in this mess. Afghanistan would likely be in better shape. Russia might not feel so comfortable making threats against Poland and invading Georgia. Korea probably wouldn’t have tested a nuclear device. The fact that we’re mired in Iraq has had serious global repercussions. I’m just trying to stress that most of it is on George Bush because ultimately he’s the one who gave the order to go in, and his incompetent appointees then commenced to mismanage the war. A total clusterfuck, and one that we will not be able to extricate ourselves from anytime soon.
by Black Francis on Aug 21, 2008 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I guess I can see that.
Maybe I just wish our Congressmen weren’t as lily-livered as they have been (especially since the Republican Executive Branch has basically been using that weakness, the need to appear strong, periodically against them, on more than just the war).
R
by Requiem on Aug 21, 2008 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well he is the favorite
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080820/ap_on_el_pr/veepstakes
"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno
LSB facebook group ---->>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33345329288
by hinduplaya on Aug 20, 2008 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
316 comments?
Oh good grief I dont even wanna wade through this..
On Obamas veep, he should pick Kaine. Virginias ev’s are crucial, and it’s razor thin there (last poll I saw was McCain +1)
Since Obama is dumb, it probably wont be Kaine.
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 10:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
At least
Obama wont pick a woman.
A woman choice would be dumb, compound voters worry about a black man by adding a woman to the ticket? It would be more doomed than it already is. No affirmative action for dems this time, they’ll go with a steady white male, aka trying to emulate the McCain ticket success.
Biden is such a meh. What a loser. All the Democrat VP choices look like huge losers. Probably because all Dem politicians look like huge weenie losers (aka John Edwards). Probably because it takes a pretty stupid white male to be a Democrat, and stupid white males usually look funny.
by Sharky on Aug 20, 2008 10:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Typical conservative spin...
I’m just going to start responding to your BS the way you do to everyone else. No facts, just baseless acqusations.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 20, 2008 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont think obama can win with a woman veep.
TOO MUCH change for mainstream america to accept at once (which is a shame as well)
although it would be interesting to see obama try to bring change all at once (and i wouldnt be suprised if he did)
all in all it sounds like its gonna be an interesting few weeks…and obama SHOULD be picking today i think
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
REAL SHOCKER!
…a sharky, taking a note from the prez and GOP… not listening to others or reading… or learning…
I blame it not on Ron Washington, but on society. Society is to blame. And Ron Washington. ~Ken Tremendous on Ron Washington sac bunting in the 11th vs LAA
by ivysafety39 on Aug 21, 2008 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
You should at least wade through the part where it was pointed out that you were wrong.
Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.
by TheBZA on Aug 21, 2008 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
sanctions
rarely work.
oil for food clearly didnt work (happened because of sanctions)
from 1990 to 99 he violated 16 sanctions many times.
because of the sanctions about 500,000 children under the age of 5 died (global policy forum and 11 NGOs placed partial fault on the security council). another group stated that “343,900 to 525,400” is a little bet better number
the same report stated that
World public opinion now recognizes comprehensive economic sanctions as a seriously flawed policy tool, a "blunt instrument" almost certain to do massive harm to innocent civilians
the head of humanitarian aid in iraq stepped down in 2000 and called the sanctiosn Sponeck called the sanctions “a true human tragedy” and wanted them to end
saddam continued to go around the sanctions
-recieved fiber optics for comminucations by military
-used vehicles and equipment approved for useage by the UN for military construction instead of the approved humanitarian aid work
-used illegally exported oil money to pay for military and personal use
-refused to give visas to UN humanitarian aid workers
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 10:22 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Sanctions kept
WMDs out of his hands. They worked.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jun 1994 UNSCOM completes the destruction of large quantities of chemical warfare agents and precursors and their production equipment.
A
Mar 1996 UNSCOM teams are denied immediate access to five sites designated for inspection. The teams enter the sites after delays of up to 17 hours.
17 Sep 1997 While seeking access to a site for inspection declared by Iraq to be “sensitive”, UNSCOM inspectors witness and videotape the movement of files, the burning of documents and dumping of ash-filled waste cans into a nearby river.
Oct 1997 UNSCOM completes the destruction of additional, large quantities of chemical weapons related equipment and precursors chemicals. Iraq had previously denied that part of the equipment had been used for CW production. Only in May 1997, on the basis of UNSCOM’s investigations, did Iraq admit that some of the equipment had indeed been used in the production of VX.
feb 1998: “team of UNSCOM international experts conclude unanimously that Iraq has still not provided sufficient information for the Commission to conclude that Iraq had undertaken all the disarmament steps required of it in these areas”
8 Apr 1998 The report of the biological weapons TEM is transmitted to the Council (S/1998/308). As with the other TEMs, the experts unanimously conclude that Iraq’s declaration on its biological weapons programme is incomplete and inadequate.
14 Jul 1998 As a consequence of the high-level talks between the Deputy Prime Minister and the Executive Chairman in June 1998, a team of UNSCOM international biological experts is assembled in Baghdad to review, for the third time, Iraq’s declaration on its biological weapons programme. The experts conclude that the declaration (on outstanding disarmarment)
is not verifiable.
12 Aug 1998 The Executive Chairman informs the Security Council (document S/1998/767) that, in addition to halting all disarmament activities, Iraq’s actions with respect to monitoring have impinged on the effectiveness of the monitoring system and the Commission could not continue to provide the Security Council with the same level of assurances of Iraq’s compliance with its obligations not to reestablish its proscribed weapons programmes.
31 Oct 1998 Iraq announces that it will cease all forms of interaction with UNSCOM and its Chairman and to halt all UNSCOM’s activities inside Iraq, including monitoring. The Security Council, in a statement to the press, unanimously condemn Iraq’s decision to cease all cooperation with UNSCOM.
FROM: http://www.un.org/Depts/unscom/Chronology/chronologyframe.htm
so the UN found VX gas and held it to destroy until 1997?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the danger right now is that without effective inspections, without effective monitoring, Iraq can in a very short period of time measured in months, reconstitute chemical and biological weapons, long-range ballistic missiles to deliver these weapons, and even certain aspects of their developing of nuclear weapons program
scott ritter after resigning.
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All of this Iraq stuff is moot now
To argue that we were justified in starting that war, especially at the time it was begun, is asinine. Absolutely asinine. Let me repeat, asinine to the nth degree.
But you can’t turn back the clock, we’re there and you have to figure out the best way to move forward and not make it an even bigger mess. Anyone that thinks either candidate is going to get out of there anytime soon is fooling themselves.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 10:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Somehow
they have to pull us out in a fairly short timeframe (3 years or less), if they want the ability to have any military initiative anywhere. I predict we will be out of Iraq before the 2012 presidential election, if only because we can’t afford to have our military this overcommitted.
We can’t even threaten to use military force in Iran, Georgia, Tibet, etc., without the world laughing at us. They know its a hollow threat, and all of our combat brigades are either deployed, or recovering, refitting, and retraining from a deployment.
Militarily, we are a paper tiger right now, and we can’t gear up to not be a paper tiger without raising taxes, which isn’t even an option for one party.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you suprise me
your reasoning about getting out of iraq is logical (unlike many people who want to “get out ASAP because we shouldnt be there in the first place”
your reasnoing about being overcommitted makes sense. idk if were going to be out by 2012 – but yes we are (clearly) spreading ourselves pretty damn thin
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Most of my reasoning
tends to be logical.
As much as folks think Im some hippie liberal, I’m not. I’ve voted Rep before, and I’ve done some weapon design before, and I’m more Libertarian than Liberal.
The reason I’m not voting Republican are fundamentally.
1) I believe in Rule of Law, and the current administration doesn’t.
2) I believe Tax and Spend is much less dangerous to the Republic than Borrow and Spend (because Pay me now is better than Pay me later).
3) I think the Military option should be used to further American interests, and not wasted like it has been in Iraq. Right now we have about 40 Combat brigades, and we aren’t gonna pay for many more, and the ones we have are overcommitted.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Logical
Just means you assume as true your premises.
So, when people assume 1. It was a bad idea to go to war. 2. It’s best to minimize loss on bad ideas, the logical conclusion is 3. we should stop war.
Maybe what you’re going for is “rational”, but even then, it’s a bit condescending, to say the least, that you’re surprised that someone who disagrees with you can muster a decent argument.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no i just did not expect that to be his
reason for exiting iraq
expected it to be more like “were not supposed to be there/were there illegally and we need to get out ASAP”
it’s a bit condescending, to say the least, that you’re surprised that someone who disagrees with you can muster a decent argument.
not what i was going for at ALL
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
expected it to be more like "were not supposed to be there/were there illegally and we need to get out ASAP"
Are those not good reasons, if assumed to be true?
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i dont think they are LOGICAL answers because you ignore the situation of what would happen if we completely pulled out tomorrow.
if you ignore the situation since we invaded, the situation today, and the historical situation then its easy to say that.
he says we should be out because we are overexpanding ourselves. thats a good answer to me
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hmm?
But that’s just 6 of one, a half-dozen of the other. Either way, the situation since we invaded, the situation today, and the historical situation are not going to change.
If you advocate leaving, it really makes no difference what your rational is.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Military might
You say that Iraq has revealed us to not have any muscle behind our threats with regard to places like Georgia and Tibet. I agree, but think that it is a longer term problem than just our stay in Iraq.
Iraq revealed our nation right now to not be supportive of the US going to war for any issue beyond a direct threat to our sovereignty. Saddam was pretty much the most hated guy around, murdered hundreds of thousands of his own people, was a threat to local stability – we all know the story. Do you honestly think that even if we were at full strength, this nation would support a military intervention in Georgia against Russia? Or Tibet against China?
Iraq has been a quagmire, but far, far fewer Americans have died there than in Vietnam, Korea, WWII, or WWI – all wars where our soldiers had no choice but to be in the military. The difference is that if the evening news would list every killed in action during WWII or Vietnam there would have been no time for anything else. Most any other wars will involve terrain not as familiar to our military or opponents much more powerful (China, Russia). Therefore, the casualties will be significantly higher.
WMD justification aside, Iraq was a referendum to the American people (and Europe) about whether we should go to war for humanitarian reasons. And the answer has been a resounding no. So Tibet, Darfur, Georgia, etc will all have to make it on their own. We’re about to enter an isolationist era for the US.
by JBImaknee on Aug 21, 2008 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Iraq a threat to local stability?
Really?
Actually I think the Reagan Administration was actually right that Iraq was a useful counterweight to Iran.
I believe the region is more unstable with the Civil War that will break out in Iraq after we leave than it was with Saddam.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't using it as a justification
I agree that Saddam was pretty much contained at the time the war started.
In reality, here is what I think happened. Your very thing – the abiltiy to threaten other countries with our military – was the motivating force behind Iraq. After 9/11, Bush needed to show that we’d use force if necessary. Afghanistan was a start, but it was out of the way and almost too justified. He wanted to scare the bejeezus out of people who would think of messing with the US. So Saddam was stupid and kicked out inspectors, thinking Bush wouldn’t call his bluff, and gave Bush the excuse he was looking for. So the invasion began.
And it worked, up to the point where it was revealed that Cheney/Rummy/Wolfowitz etc had no plan for the end game. They probably just assumed the UN would step in and take over, which wasn’t going to happen. That was the critical error.
Now, as you point out, the disaster of the end game has put a giant blight out our military, which in fact did its job (they weren’t meant to be a police force after all). Which was my point – the military has gotten a black eye due to the bumbling of the administration.
by JBImaknee on Aug 21, 2008 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Personally,
I agree with you that our Military has done an exceptional job with the hand they were dealt. They defeated the enemy militarily in the field. Our Military has never been designed to be a nation’s FBI and Police force though.
I also agree that all the stupidity has been on the political end.
All the grief that follows, from a resurgent Iran to Russia taking grabs while we are tied up, can be blamed on the stupidity of the neocons, who never thought this through.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair though
I think this represents a problem with the whole process. The Neocons were obviously wrong and short-sighted. But at the time, no one was saying “What are you going to do when you win the war?” As much as Obama and his supporters want to make believe that they knew this would happen, I don’t think they did. The war turned out badly, but not for the reasons that were espoused at the time. They were right, but for the wrong reasons.
The anti-war arguments should have been something other than “lets use all diplomatic options first” (wouldn’t have changed anything) and “no blood for oil” (just seems wishy-washy and conspiracy theoryish). When liberals use idealistic arguments like “Lets go to the UN!” or emotional ones, they come across as impractical, and pro-war types will easily win those debates.
by JBImaknee on Aug 21, 2008 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The
“No Blood for Oil” argument always struck me as rather childish, considering nearly every war in history has been fought over resources.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 1:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
re: But at the time, no one was saying "What are you going to do when you win the war?"
Sure they were.
Colin Powell broached this subject repeatedly, and was consistently shouted down and/or marginalized by the Wolfowitz-Cheny-Rummy cabal. You don’t remember the “Pottery Barn Rule?”
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on Aug 21, 2008 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
The infinite stupidity of the neocons has trouble being measured.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Always liked the Colbert version of the Pottery Barn rule
“At Pottery Barn, if you knock over a lamp, you have to glue it back together, even if when you’re done it looks terrible and it doesn’t work. Oh, and you have to stay in the store forever. Oh, and it’s an exploding lamp.”
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colin Powell
also sold out and went in front of the UN and argued for a war he distinctly didn’t agree with. He should have been more of a leader at that moment in time.
I know it isn’t easy to say “No” to your president and to resign the 3rd most powerful office in the country (and probably the world), but he was Colin Freakin’ Powell – he should have called a press conference and said – “this is a mistake, here is why, and you guys have fun – I’m out.”
by JBImaknee on Aug 21, 2008 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree
I was really disappointed in him. In the mid-90s I hoped to vote for him for president. He didn’t have the balls to run, and then he didn’t have the balls to call out his boss when he knew he was right.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 10:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, JBIMaknee
you’re wrong:
From http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama%27s_Iraq_Speech
I know that even a successful war against Iraq will require a US occupation of undetermined length, at undetermined cost, with undetermined consequences. I know that an invasion of Iraq without a clear rationale and without strong international support will only fan the flames of the Middle East, and encourage the worst, rather than best, impulses of the Arab world, and strengthen the recruitment arm of al-Qaeda.
This reason along with the fighting of two wars at one time and the bad precedent of running an offensive war were the main reasons why any who did argue against the war argued as they did.
The problem is that few people at the time wanted to look at the potential long-term consequences of the war, and now those chickens are coming home to roost.
R
by Requiem on Aug 21, 2008 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My bad
about Obama. Can’t say I was paying too much attention to him at the time. But I was paying attention to everyday people who were very anti-war (and now big Obama folks), and that wasn’t their argument.
Maybe it is my memory – I’m not an anti-war activist so I don’t know all the details by heart – but my impression was that there was a significant “dovish” argument against the war, which was just a poor strategic move at the time. Basically, I think in the immediately post-9/11 years, it would have been a stronger idea to come across as an “intelligent hawk with foresight” than a dove.
Maybe it was that the anti-war response was noisy – for every rational argument about strategy you heard a few “Let the UN take care of it”‘s, which really is just red meat for the American Hawk. As I point out at some point way above, the problem with liberalism isn’t that there aren’t good ideas and concerns, it is that they are often accompanied by other bad ideas with questionable motives and poor strategy.
by JBImaknee on Aug 21, 2008 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and before I get in trouble
it is that they are often accompanied by other bad ideas with questionable motives and poor strategy.
this is also a problem with the Republicans as well…
by JBImaknee on Aug 21, 2008 5:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if mccain can't keep up
with how many houses he own, how could he run a country?
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Aug 21, 2008 1:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
oh
and he said he doesn’t disagree that we should reinstate the draft.
ouch
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Aug 21, 2008 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you do?
A peacetime draft is undoubtedly drastic, but I’m not sure I see the problem with a wartime draft.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good news is
with the Republicans, its always wartime!
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're really discrediting yourself
I think. I’m sure you don’t care, but I would.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't know how I'm discrediting myself.
Reagan-Military advisors in El Salvador, Air Strikes on Libya, Marines to Beirut, invaded Grenada, troops to Panama
Bush- troops to Panama, Persian Gulf War
Bush-Afghanistan, Iraq.
Generally, speaking truth is to a persons credit, not discredit.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, of course.
Which is why you’re discrediting yourself. I’m not sure half-truths are the path to enlightenment.
For one, only the current Iraq invasion could plausibly qualify for anything remotely resembling a traditional war. I don’t think limited skirmishes can be said to substantively affect either the budget or public policy, except to the extent that they’re unsuccessful.
But hey, as long as you’re cherry-picking, I guess I could join in. So let’s start with the two World Wars, then move on to Korea, a takeover of a lame duck’s idea in Cuba, La Republica Dominicana, escalation in Vietnam, Iran (if we’re counting bullshit), Iraq 1.5 and Somalia.
Keep in mind that I’m no defender of Republicans or Democrats as a general rule, I just think debate means more when it’s done honestly.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Considered
Gulf War 1 Had twice the troops as the current war, Im not sure how it doesn’t count as a traditional war. I guess it was a half million folks out for a hike in the desert?
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A
100 hour hike.
You’re being silly.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm for the draft
it may be the only realistic way to build up the military enough if the government insists on solving every problem by invading someone.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i completely disagree
especially since the current administration has decided to start unnecessary wars WITH a volunteer army. put in psycho john mccain who wants war with Iran and maybe even Russia and give him an endless supply of soldiers and the whole “4 more years, 4 more wars” thing seems even more frighteningly realistic.
and forcing young men into the military? i like to believe we are still past that. i know other countries do that (england, israel, germany…) but so what? other countries do things that we don’t do. and visa versa.
the main point of my posting that is the majority of americans DON’T want a draft.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Aug 21, 2008 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to see a draft
See how much the chickenhawk rhetoric changes…
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on Aug 21, 2008 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
see how many
rich kids get drafted and actually serve.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Aug 21, 2008 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lot of Republican kids
getting student deferments is my guess. The party seems to be the home for the chickenhawk element in this country.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you do know there are more "conservatives" in the military than liberals like you.
to me, abortion is not a religious issue, it's a common sense one...
by Longhorn on Aug 23, 2008 2:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is that why
There is such a shortage of recruits, the army is out of majors (who are leaving in droves) and soldiers have sent 4 times as much money to the Obama campaign as they have to the McCain? Yeah, the military seems real happy with the war.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 25, 2008 6:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please don't
confuse Longhorn with facts. Most of my Air Force buddies are leaving as soon as they can get out. They are worried about being stop-lossed though.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 25, 2008 9:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Says the guy
With no answer for his own factual missteps.
by brettgardner on Aug 25, 2008 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Says the guy
who introduced himself here with a lie.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 25, 2008 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Say the guy
Whose point wasn’t relevant to the discussion at all.
I provided an answer.
by brettgardner on Aug 25, 2008 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Huh?
How was my post not relevant?
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 25, 2008 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
You’re confusing the introduction of a lie with the answer or justification of it.
Once called out, I didn’t continue. Cahill has suddenly exited the conversation when a contention he made was proved to be false.
So, not relevant. Thanks for trying, though.
by brettgardner on Aug 25, 2008 10:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Air Force? those guys are the wussiest of them all.
talk about in the rear with the gear. i have never met an air force guy that wasnt a fuck up.
"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM
by Jayslick on Aug 25, 2008 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can we have a -rec
And turn the post red instead of green?
Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.
by TheBZA on Aug 25, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought
you were referring to my post in reply to Longhorn. But it’s still relevant, pot-kettle, etc.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 25, 2008 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
It’s really not.
I have to say I’m pretty disappointed, because I’d expect that kind of fuzzy, one-tier thinking from other posters here, but not you.
See, if I called somebody a liar, then you’d have a point. I didn’t do that. Cahill was giving Longhorn shit for not paying attention to facts, while he himself was dodging inconvenient facts elsewhere in this thread. It has nothing to do with honesty, and, if it did, it’d be honesty when confronted with the facts or truth.
“Pot-kettle”, besides being such a terribly banal saying that it makes me want to vomit, is just not applicable here. So, not relevant, and thanks for playing.
by brettgardner on Aug 25, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's some pretty fine
hair-splitting. A lie is lacking in factual information, and I thought it funny that you were calling out someone else on being factual. Now you’re just being defensive. It was just a snarky remark made in jest, and in person would have been accompanied by an appropriate tone, elbow or some such, not meant to be taken so much to heart. You’re too sensitive sometimes.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 25, 2008 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 21, 2008 9:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How can Clinton run a country
if he can’t even be faithful to his own wife? You’re being ridiculous with your criticism. Make one that actually matters if you want to have intelligent and relevant discussions.
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 21, 2008 4:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
apples and oranges
and i was really being cheeky.
owning a house is a big thing. i wonder if he knows how many kids he has.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Aug 21, 2008 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, because a leader
being unfaithful to their wife has been completely unheard of in history.
What's the secret to a long life? "I masturbate a lot"-Ernest Borgnine. http://www.bestweekever.tv/2008/08/14/icymi-ernest-borgnine-reveals-his-secret-for-everlasting-youth/#onepage
by DJCahill on Aug 21, 2008 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But if someone forgets about how many houses he owns
he shouldn’t be considered for president….Clearly he doesn’t live in all of those homes anymore. It really isn’t a big deal. If you want to actually argue about reasons why a candidate shouldn’t be electable we could talk about Obama’s inexperience in politics. In fact, can you name anything relevant he is responsible for during his political career?
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 21, 2008 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Come on Democrats
What has Obama ever done in his political career? What legislation has he ever had passed? Anything? Does anybody know?
"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005
by Agreen07 on Aug 22, 2008 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Obama Cover-up Revealed on Born-Alive Abortion Survivors Bill
http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NzE1Y2MyMmFjMWYzNmUwYTA4NGUwNmJmYzY1MzQyMGQ=
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 22, 2008 7:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
If you search for “Obama Legislation” in Google, this is the second link that pops up behind the campaign website.
And even though this is from the Daily Kos, it’s just a list and has links to back it up. The list came from “thomas”, a federal government website that you already know about if you take things seriously.
So if you don’t bother to look, I guess you’re not going to know, huh? It’s pretty easy to make the implication that he hasn’t done anything in the Senate, knowing that most people will not bother to do even a cursory Google search. And that those who already agree with your position will do nothing put parrot the assertion.
by Black Francis on Aug 22, 2008 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
somethings
As a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Obama made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. In August 2005, he traveled to Russia, Ukraine, and Azerbaijan. The trip focused on strategies to control the world’s supply of conventional weapons, biological weapons, and weapons of mass destruction as a first defense against potential terrorist attacks.
Following meetings with U.S. military in Kuwait and Iraq in January 2006, Obama visited Jordan, Israel, and the Palestinian territories.
He left for his third official trip in August 2006, traveling to South Africa, Kenya, Djibouti, Ethiopia and Chad. In a nationally televised speech at the University of Nairobi, he spoke forcefully on the influence of ethnic rivalries and corruption in Kenya.
Obama worked with Russ Feingold (D–WI) to eliminate gifts of travel on corporate jets by lobbyists to members of Congress and require disclosure of bundled campaign contributions under the “Honest Leadership and Open Government Act”, which was signed into law in September 2007.
He joined Chuck Schumer (D-NY) in sponsoring S. 453, a bill to criminalize deceptive practices in federal elections, including fraudulent flyers and automated phone calls, as witnessed in the 2006 midterm elections.
Obama also introduced the “Iraq War De-Escalation Act”, a bill to cap troop levels in Iraq, begin phased redeployment, and remove all combat brigades from Iraq before April 2008.
Later in 2007, Obama sponsored with Kit Bond (R-MO) an amendment to the 2008 Defense Authorization Act adding safeguards for personality disorder military discharges, and calling for a review by the Government Accountability Office following reports that the procedure had been used inappropriately to reduce government costs.
joined Chuck Hagel (R-NE) in introducing legislation to reduce risks of nuclear terrorism.A provision from the Obama-Hagel bill was passed by Congress in December 2007 as an amendment to the State-Foreign Operations appropriations bill.
Obama also sponsored a Senate amendment to the State Children’s Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) to provide one year of job protection for family members caring for soldiers with combat-related injuries. After passing both houses of Congress with bipartisan majorities, SCHIP was vetoed by President Bush in early October 2007, a move Obama said “shows a callousness of priorities that is offensive to the ideals we hold as Americans.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama
THESE ARE BARACK’S ACCOMPLISHMENTS IN THE U.S. SENATE TO DATE:
- First legislation, the HOPE Act, which increased Pell Grants to $5100, and later joined Senator Kennedy on the Higher Education legislation that passed July 20, by a vote of 78-18. That legislation also included funding for Predominantly Black Colleges to assist with counseling, tutoring and other needs of low income students. It also creates the Teaching Residency Act which will create a school-based teacher preparation program in high needs schools to provide each teacher with a mentor, content instruction, classroom management skills, a master’s degree and state certification, and a 2 year follow-up program.
**The Coburn-Obama Government Transparency Act of 2006
is an act that requires the full disclosure of all entities or organizations receiving federal funds beginning in fiscal year (FY) 2007 on a website maintained by the Office of Management and Budget.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Funding_Accountabi...
**The Lugar-Obama Nuclear Non-proliferation and Conventional Weapons Threat Reduction Act
Authored by U.S. Sens. Dick Lugar (R-IN) and Barack Obama (D-IL), the Lugar-Obama initiative expands U.S. cooperation to destroy conventional weapons. It also expands the State Department’s ability to detect and interdict weapons and materials of mass destruction.
Signed into Law on January 11, 2007.
http://my.barackobama.com/page/community/post/chrisblas...
**The 2007 Government Ethics Bill
http://www.rollcall.com/issues/53_17/news/19664-1.html?…
http://www.commonblog.com/story/2007/9/14/164837/331
- The "Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s109-2125
- S116 – Summer Learning demonstration project to provide summer learning grants and encourage new teaching methods.
http://www.pasesetter.org/demonstrationPrograms/nasd.ht...
and this one, moved out of committee just a few days ago:
Obama’s Global Poverty Act of 2007, passed out of committee just a few days ago
WASHINGTON, D.C. – U.S. Senators Barack Obama (D-IL), Chuck Hagel (R-NE), and Maria Cantwell (D-WA) and Congressman Adam Smith (D-WA) today hailed the Senate Foreign Relations Committee’s passage of the Global Poverty Act (S.2433), which requires the President to develop and implement a comprehensive policy to cut extreme global poverty in half by 2015 through aid, trade, debt relief, and coordination with the international community, businesses and NGOs. This legislation was introduced in December. Smith and Congressman Spencer Bachus (R-AL) sponsored the House version of the bill (H.R. 1302), which passed the House last September.
http://obama.senate.gov /
Amendments, that have all passed:
S.Amdt.159 to S.Con.Res.18 – To prevent and, if necessary, respond to an international outbreak of the avian flu.
S.Amdt.390 to H.R.1268 – To provide meal and telephone benefits for members of the Armed Forces who are recuperating from injuries incurred on active duty in Operation Iraqi Freedom or Operation Enduring Freedom.
S.Amdt.670 to H.R.3 – To provide for Flexible Fuel Vehicle (FFV) refueling capability at new and existing refueling station facilities to promote energy security and reduction of greenhouse gas emissions.
S.Amdt.808 to H.R.6 – To establish a program to develop Fischer-Tropsch transportation fuels from Illinois basin coal.
S.Amdt.851 to H.R.6 – To require the Secretary to establish a Joint Flexible Fuel/Hybrid Vehicle Commercialization Initiative, and for other purposes.
S.Amdt.1362 to S.1042 – To require a report on the Department of Defense Composite Health Care System II.
S.Amdt.1453 to S.1402 – To ensure the protection of military and civilian personnel in the Department of Defense from an influenza pandemic, including an avian influenza pandemic.
S.Amdt.2301 to H.R.3010 – To increase funds to the Thurgood Marshall Legal Educational Opportunity Program and to the Office of Special Education Programs of the Department of Education for the purposes of expanding positive behavioral interventions and supports.
S.Amdt.2605 to S.2020 – Expressing the sense of the Senate that the Federal Emergency Management Agency should immediately address issues relating to no-bid contracting.
S.Amdt.2930 to S.2349 – To clarify that availability of legislation does not include nonbusiness days.
S.Amdt.3144 to S.Con.Res.83 – To provide a $40 million increase in FY 2007 for the Homeless Veterans Reintegration Program and to improve job services for hard-to-place veterans
S. Amdt 41 to S. 1 To require lobbyists to disclose the candidates, leadership PACs, or political parties for whom they collect or arrange contributions, and the aggregate amount of the contributions collected or arranged.
———————————————————————
Barack has Written a total of 890 Bills and Co-sponsored Another 1096 since he started serving in the U.S. Senate.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Aug 23, 2008 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the main point is
if you ask an average person to name an accomplishment of obama, they can’t.
if you ask an average person to name an accomplishment of mccain, they can’t.
maybe people can mention campaign ads, ethics reform. maybe.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Aug 23, 2008 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
After the Conventions
..and during the debates some of it will come out.
And by they way, most people can’t even name their US Senators.
by Black Francis on Aug 23, 2008 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we do have a draft
who will go number one and do yall think aaron crow has any realistic chance to fall to us?
by Mr. ChubNuts on Aug 21, 2008 2:39 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
haha
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how many houses to do you have mr mccain
“i think…i’ll have my staff get to you”
lol
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Aug 21, 2008 3:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
no worse than
“above my pay grade”
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
also
attempting to tie mccain to jack abramoff was, quite honestly, pretty dumb.
now i am interested to see how long it takes for an ad to connect obama to tony rezko…
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
because it’s much, much better to claim to have all the answers about a simple thing like religion than to know something really complex like how many homes you own.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on Aug 21, 2008 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ITS NOT A RELIGIOUS QUESTION.
Warren: “At what point does a baby get human rights in your view?”
Obama: “Answering that question with specificity…uh….you know is…uh….above my pay grade.”
answers:
-at conception
-between conception and birth
-at birth
HOW is that a difficult question to answer?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It is difficult
If you don’t know.
Why do you keep harping on this?
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
how is it difficult to think he "doesnt know" when HE thinks human rights should be given
key words:
in your view
surely he has a view on it…right?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 4:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who cares
If he has an opinion on it? Seriously, it’s time you send this issue where it matters— the legislature. Don’t claim to be democratic except when you really want everybody to agree with you.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hes running for the president.
I care.
other voters care.
thast “who cares”
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The reason I ask
Is because you shouldn’t care what he thinks. It really doesn’t matter. Now, your senator/congressman and state representatives? That matters. Ask them, and care about them. That’s where this process belongs.
by brettgardner on Aug 21, 2008 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
why doesnt it matter?
why shouldnt i care?
and why does it belong to the legislature when it has already been handled by supreme court judges?
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on Aug 21, 2008 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It doesn't matter
Because chances are he’ll have little impact on the issue, and, in a perfect world, he’d have none. More

by 