Minors - 08/28
Late game tonight so there's plenty of time to wank over Dutch if he performs well.
Clinton - Murphy (!!!) - 6:30pm
Bakersfield - Swanson - 9:00pm
Frisco - Left-handed Jesus - 7:00pm
Spokane - Nevarez - 8:30pm
I need to fill space. Jamey came out with another trade scenario for Greinke today: Salty, Hurley/Harrison, JMJ/Cruz, Arias and a lower level prospect for Greinke/Ramirez. There's a monstrous 15 page post about it in the Newberg forums. Would any of you do that trade? My first reaction was "effing no".
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i posted a similar trade proposal over at Royals Review
i would do Hurley, Davis and Saltalamacchia for Greinke
Royal homers seem pretty mixed about it.
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 6:57 PM CDT
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Wha???

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
"If you ain't got no money, ain't nobody calls you honey," Bo Diddley
by Rodney on
Aug 28, 2008 7:18 PM CDT
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it's a fair deal.
losing Saltalamacchia doesn’t hurt us. basically, we lose a bat, and gain a solid arm.
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 7:23 PM CDT
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Does the increase in Greinke for the next two years...
offset the loss of Hurley the following 4 years?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 28, 2008 7:25 PM CDT
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it's worth the gamble.
…in theory… Matt Harrison, Neftali Feliz and Derek Holland should all be established by then.
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 7:29 PM CDT
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hell yes it does
the question is does the increase in greinke for the next 2 years offset the loss of davis for the next 4+
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on
Aug 29, 2008 8:54 AM CDT
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I don't know
I’m not against trading Davis but if we were to trade him I’d want someone that’s more of a sure thing than Greinke.
"Mr. Hicks, you watch, I'm going to be a leader on this team." Kinsler
by sprite on
Aug 28, 2008 7:26 PM CDT
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That kind of logic leads to Adrian Gonzalez being included in a trade for Adam Eaton and Aki Otsuka.
by LiamP on
Aug 28, 2008 7:40 PM CDT
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and yours makes Adam Eaton and Zack Greinke comparable.
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 7:44 PM CDT
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lost ya oc
no clue what that meant.
"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM
by Jayslick on
Aug 28, 2008 11:19 PM CDT
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thats a stupid way to look at it
rather we need salty or not, he still has value. you dont throw someone into a trade because you dont think you need him.
~5 years of Davis, Salty and Hurley, all real prospects, for 2 years of greinke? Greinke is not a cy young quality pitcher. if you are giving that kind of value for 2 years of a pitcher it better be an actual ace.
if you deal that valule for pitching, do it for multiple high quality pitching prospects.
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Aug 28, 2008 7:47 PM CDT
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6 years of Davis and Hurley
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 28, 2008 7:49 PM CDT
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i never said he was a "throw-in"...
…but, because of our catching depth, losing him isn’t that big of a blow.
that’s not a “stupid” way of looking at it.
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 7:56 PM CDT
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i might as well ask since i make stupid points anyway...
…why do you think Greinke is not a Cy Young quality pitcher?
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 8:12 PM CDT
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Because he has a 5.03 ERA in the 2nd half
he has a career GB% of 38%, he gives up too many HRs despite playing in a HR suppressing park.
He’s a decent 2, good 3 in our park in front of our defense.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 8:20 PM CDT
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and
because he has a history of emotional trauma, a history of inconsistency, no great history of durability, and he pitches in front of a pretty good outfield defense, and he still allows too many hits per nine.
Seriously, he’s 1.50 WHIP, 4.00+ FIP guy here. He’d be mediocre, and throughly not worth Davis alone, let alone Saltalamacchia, Hurley and Davis.
If the deal is Teagarden+JMJ+Hurley+someone like Feldman or a young guy in A or A+, that’s fine. But if you want to deal 2 major-ready players and an almost majors-ready pitcher, that’d be dumb, stupid, and equivalent of repairing your sinking ship by scavenging your own mast. Yeah, you’re not sinking anymore, but you’re still going nowhere.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 8:34 PM CDT
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What makes you think he'd suck so thoroughly here?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Aug 28, 2008 11:07 PM CDT
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38% career GB
allows more than a hit an inning. The Ks and walks are nice, but he’s hittable and homer prone. He’d be especially homer-prone here.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 29, 2008 12:21 AM CDT
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Why especially here?
The park plays pretty neutral from everything I’ve heard. I have no idea why his WHIP would jump a full .2, but I assume you do and if you don’t want to tell me that’s okay.
The point is he’s a young arm with a track record of being an above average innings eater and good health when his head is on straight (which apparently is a pretty sure thing now that he got the help he needed).
He’s not perfect, but if you want perfect then I don’t know what to tell you.
Greinke is a good pitcher.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Aug 29, 2008 12:30 AM CDT
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Seriously
I can’t get over how bad of a deal this would be.
Look at what Johan Santana got the Twins – a toolsy OF and the prospect pu-pu platter
Danny Haren, a guy who was under a cheap, team-friendly contract for 4 years, and a guy who had true ace stuff and peripherals got what was at the time a good prospect with disappointing numbers (Gonzalez), a good prospect with disappointing stuff (Anderson) and a platter of back of the rotation starters, lottery tickets, and Aaron Cunningham.
CC Sabathia got Matt LaPorta, and nothing else.
Matt Garza, a younger guy under more team control, got the Twins Delmon Young
Eric Bedard got Adam Jones, Tillman and the uninspiring Butler.
All of those guys are better than Greinke, and 3 of those guys were under team control for longer. That’s the value of Zack Greinke, not Davis+Salty+Hurley.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 8:40 PM CDT
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my basic thinking:
- Davis will be moved for Smoak
- Salty will be moved anyway
- Greinke is better than Hurley
i just happen to think that Greinke is (or will be) better than most here believe he is.
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 8:51 PM CDT
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For what reason?
He’s a poor fit. Never mind that
1. Smoak is also a year or so away, at least
2. A catcher will be moved, most likely Laird + one of Salty/Teagarden
3. Hurley is under team control for longer than Greinke
The only difference right now, between Greinke and Hurley is the ability to consistently command the breaking stuff. Stuff wise, they’re not very different.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 8:52 PM CDT
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doesn't Greinke have more zip on his fastball?
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 8:55 PM CDT
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He throws
90-93, the same as Hurley.
He has more movement on his fastball.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 8:55 PM CDT
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come on...
…he was hitting 95, 96 consistently on Tuesday.
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 8:56 PM CDT
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and he hits 88-90
a lot too. Maybe the mph was up there, but he’s not a true power guy. He’s a command, location guy in the mold of Radke.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 8:57 PM CDT
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Um, that's a rather ridiculous comp
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Aug 29, 2008 12:35 AM CDT
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How about a Moose Haas comp?
http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/greinza01.shtml
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
by RangerMad on
Aug 29, 2008 1:34 AM CDT
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Pretty good
probably better than Radke. Same idea, though, nice K rates, nice BB rates, too many hits, too many HRs for what we’re giving up.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 29, 2008 2:28 AM CDT
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hence,
his avg fastball is 92.3 this year. Which is good, but not considerably better than Hurley
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 9:00 PM CDT
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his peripherals suggest he's matured the last couple of seasons...
i like the guy.
…you don’t.
moving on…
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 9:03 PM CDT
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Fangraphs has Grink at 93.2 and Hurley at 90.2
And they have Grink rated as the 13th highest avg fb velo among their qualifying starters.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Aug 29, 2008 12:34 AM CDT
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Danny Haren, a guy who was under a cheap, team-friendly contract for 4 years, and a guy who had true ace stuff and peripherals got what was at the time a good prospect with disappointing numbers (Gonzalez), a good prospect with disappointing stuff (Anderson) and a platter of back of the rotation starters, lottery tickets, and Aaron Cunningham.
anderson – you DO realize that there are some schools of thought that he may be better long term than cahill? (i believe read somewhere on BP ther was a guy – golstein? who liked him long term as much/better than cahill)
anderson is a damn good prospect
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on
Aug 29, 2008 8:56 AM CDT
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At the time
he was a good prospect, but not the 91 mph prospect he is now. His lost weight really uped his stuff and made him a top 20 guy
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 29, 2008 1:15 PM CDT
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yes he was a good prospect
he was seen as a good prospect since the day he was drafted (father is frank anderson – former pitching coach at UT and i believe current HC at Oklahoma state)
he was seen as a 1st rd (1st half IIRC) arm who dropped because he had committed to playing at OSU under his father and most people thought there was no way he would give that up
he was traded as maybe the #2 in that deal behind gonzalez
check out his stats, pretty good before this year iirc but he was one of those guys that fly under the radar
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on
Aug 29, 2008 2:30 PM CDT
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Holy crap
I wouldn’t do Davis alone.
Pretty clearly the first time he has ever looked at a web site. "And there are readers' comments at the bottom! And advertisements for products! And best of all, I won a free iPod!"
-Ken Tremendous on Mike Downey.
by BudLight on
Aug 28, 2008 7:25 PM CDT
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what's the matter Colonel Sanders?...

CHICKEN???
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 7:36 PM CDT
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that trade proposal
made me throw up in my mouth. that is three players at the very beginning of solid to spectacular careers for a player with an ERA in the high 3’s and who missed time two years ago from depression. i am not sure if there is a pitcher in baseball i would give up that much for.
by clark on
Aug 28, 2008 8:14 PM CDT
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with the exception of a catcher
i don’t see the need to trade anyone. let’s try to turn a catcher into a solid young pitcher (looking at Florida or Boston for help here) and then sign a FA, and then let’s follow Tampa’s lead and keep our young core and watch them develop.
by clark on
Aug 28, 2008 8:16 PM CDT
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honestly
i think davis alone could land us a very solid young pitcher this offseason. look back at that young/garza trade…and Davis actually hits HRs.
by clark on
Aug 28, 2008 8:45 PM CDT
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The only person we need to trade
is 1 or 2 catchers. Preferably Laird +.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 8:54 PM CDT
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I dont understand why
people keep bringing up his depresion. Josh Hamilton overcame his demons.
by Steele Rockman on
Aug 29, 2008 12:49 AM CDT
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turrible
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on
Aug 28, 2008 8:39 PM CDT
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Davis and Salty each
could highlight a trade that brings back a ML pitcher. Waaaayyyyyyyy tooooooo much for Greinke.
Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.
by RangerMad on
Aug 28, 2008 9:10 PM CDT
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do either bring back a top-of-the-rotation arm by themselves?
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 11:53 PM CDT
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is grienke a guaranteed top of the rotation guy?
no.
i think the salty/davis/hurley or another arm wouldnt be too terribly worse than the package the twins got for johan
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on
Aug 29, 2008 8:58 AM CDT
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huh?
Salty/Davis/Hurley is a better package than what the Twins got for Johan.
I think Salty would be roughly equivalent value to Gomez, Hurley slightly better value than Mulvey, and Davis has tons more value than Deolis Guerra.
And of course, Johan is worth a lot more than Greinke. KC would be making out like bandits in that deal.
Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.
by tricer on
Aug 29, 2008 9:34 AM CDT
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Sorry OC...
I know you are really getting bashed on this one so I’ll try to be nice about it. I wouldn’t do much more than Davis alone for Greinke.
I’ve said before something like Salty, Harrison, JMJ/Cruz, and Arias or a low level guy would be about as high as I go.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on
Aug 28, 2008 9:27 PM CDT
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LSB DOGPILES!!
"I’ll say something that doesn’t need context: anyone who is a Mariner’s fan is a douchebag." - FuturePants
by Chase Irwin on
Aug 28, 2008 10:15 PM CDT
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Would prefer to deal TT and Hurley with JMJ/Cruz and Arias
by laxtonto on
Aug 28, 2008 7:09 PM CDT
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sorry...
…if i’m Dayton Moore, the first person i’m asking about Davis.
realistically, i don’t think we would come away with Greinke without giving him up.
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 7:17 PM CDT
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If you were Dayton Moore
where would you put Davis?
He has Butler, Gordon, Hosmer, Teahan, Kia’However the hell you spell it for 1B/DH/3B.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 8:22 PM CDT
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Butler DH
Gordon 3B
Teahen sucks
Hosmer a couple of years out
Davis > Ka’aihue
by oc on
Aug 28, 2008 8:25 PM CDT
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But it's dumb
to spend your money/talent on something when you have a good alternative replacement. Whether or not Davis>Kai’aihue is not the question, the question is does the replacement of Kai’aihue with Davis justify giving up Greinke?
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 8:31 PM CDT
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Yes, it most definitely would justify it
Davis is really, really good.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Aug 28, 2008 11:01 PM CDT
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I think
I am getting a little more excited about Holland than Feliz right now. Both impressive, but Holland has been sick since hitting AA
Nippert=Cy Young
by RA Dickey on
Aug 28, 2008 7:29 PM CDT
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This after Feliz just had 10 no hit innings?
by gamerabcd on
Aug 28, 2008 7:31 PM CDT
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Don't get me wrong, I love them both
but Holland is 3-0, with a 0.90 ERA, 0.70 whip, 22K, 20 IP, OPP BA .152
Gotta love the future
Nippert=Cy Young
by RA Dickey on
Aug 28, 2008 7:35 PM CDT
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20 yr old and 21 yr old
Feliz was getting innings limited, if he had been allowed to really show his stuff, would have even more dominating stats. But, no doubt the future is bright.
by gamerabcd on
Aug 28, 2008 7:43 PM CDT
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UPDATES:
Clinton
beltre 0-4
moreland 2-4 2b
smoak 2-4 2b
Hamburger 1ip 1h save
Bakersfield
Osuna 2B 2-3 1bb 12b
lemon 2-4
Tufts 3ip 3h 1bb
Frisco
Moonshine CF 3-5 2b 2rbi
The King 0-5
Vallejo 2B 1-4
Laughter (BS, 5)(L, 2-3) sucked 0.2ip 3h 4r 4er 2bb
OKC
MadMax 1-3 1bb
Lizard sucked
Fukusucky sucked
"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM
by Jayslick on
Aug 28, 2008 11:37 PM CDT
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Holland thru 2IP
2IP, 1 H, 0R, 3 K
25 pitches, 20 strikes
Nippert=Cy Young
by RA Dickey on
Aug 28, 2008 7:37 PM CDT
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59 pitches thru 4
5 Ks, 2 H and a BB. ERA in AA thru 24 inning: .75
by clark on
Aug 28, 2008 8:11 PM CDT
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04 and 05 intl. FA signings/signing bonuses
Does anyone have a complete list of our 04 and 05 intl fa signings and what bonuses they received?
by Goyogringo on
Aug 28, 2008 7:53 PM CDT
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T. Murphy
IP H R ER BB SO HR
5.0 2 2 2 0 4 1
by Kinslerhomer on
Aug 28, 2008 7:55 PM CDT
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all the damage done
on a HR. most important thing…two baserunners in five innings.
by clark on
Aug 28, 2008 8:09 PM CDT
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OKC
With the exception of M. Ramirez, that line-up is ugly.
by T Coleman on
Aug 28, 2008 8:19 PM CDT
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True
Compared to looking at the other farm teams, just not a lot to be excited about. I guess that is because they are all in Arlington.
by T Coleman on
Aug 28, 2008 8:25 PM CDT
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Alot of teams
have spares in Triple A and most of their true prospects lower ends. Maybe one true stud but thats all.
by gamerabcd on
Aug 28, 2008 8:26 PM CDT
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astros used to basically jump their guys past AAA
ESPECIALLY pitchers (kirk saarloos, c hernandez, etc)
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on
Aug 29, 2008 9:00 AM CDT
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Nevermind.
Got out of a jam. Gave up 1 unearned run.
by LiamP on
Aug 28, 2008 8:33 PM CDT
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is he...
working on his secondary pitches or just blowing fastballs by them? Because I could really give a crap about his #‘s if he’s only really using his FB…I want him to work and work and work on those secondary pitches so that he WILL be our ACE of the future (same for Neftali).
Anyone know how he’s working the game?
"For those booing me. Take that, beeep." - Ramon Vazquez
by 8legs2fangs on
Aug 28, 2008 8:29 PM CDT
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He doesnt have his best stuff
He is sitting at 92, 93 on fb. But when he got in trouble got K on changeup. Unearned run, otherwise still only 2 hard hits on the night.
by gamerabcd on
Aug 28, 2008 8:31 PM CDT
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that is why
i think he may be our #1 prospect. even when he doesn’t have his best stuff, he can look dominant because he knows how to pitch.
by clark on
Aug 28, 2008 8:47 PM CDT
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Holland done
Another no earned runs game.
6 innings, 4 hits, 2 walks, 7 Ks and 87 pitches.
3-7 gb-fb, maybe a little worriesome
by gamerabcd on
Aug 28, 2008 8:54 PM CDT
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holland
he really gave up some hard hit fly outs tonight, i dont think any of the fly outs were easy popups which is concerning some.
i havent checked, so im not sure what his splits are but if he gives those kind of fly outs in arlington he could get in trouble.
really he looked good early on, then kind of slowed down some. looked to be working in the low 90s according to the scout guns tonight.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
by rentz on
Aug 28, 2008 9:32 PM CDT
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holland will not be our #1 prospect in any ranking
period, end of story.
feliz will be.
andrus and holland will beon the same level ish depending on who likes him (heis a big cause of division at BA…)
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on
Aug 29, 2008 9:01 AM CDT
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Borbon
2-3, 2B
Up to .332 for the year.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 8:41 PM CDT
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Is it better for Frisco to bow out quickly in playoffs?
So we can see Borbon for Sept. callup?
by gamerabcd on
Aug 28, 2008 8:43 PM CDT
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No
more than anything, I like the Chemistry between guys like Borbon, Andrus, Feliz, Vallejo, et all right now.
I’d like for them to win it all like Ian did.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 8:44 PM CDT
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Thats true
But, he really seems to be dominating Double A with 17 game hitting streak. Amazing no pub on this, even with BA speaking Andrus last few days with Bday and his own 10 game one.
by gamerabcd on
Aug 28, 2008 8:47 PM CDT
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Does anyone have the link
to the spokane game handy?
by Goyogringo on
Aug 28, 2008 8:42 PM CDT
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Here you go
http://www2.fiberpipe.net/hawks/2007/vod2.asp?Yakima082808.wsx
Yet nothing loading yet
by gamerabcd on
Aug 28, 2008 8:44 PM CDT
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Video tomorrow
They’re still in Spokane tonight.
by shroomer on
Aug 28, 2008 8:45 PM CDT
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Thats even better
Then we can see the 3 some of Boscan, Perez, and Ramirez
by gamerabcd on
Aug 28, 2008 8:48 PM CDT
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Let's call Mccarthy
Stick!!

"You can't reason with your heart; it has its own laws, and thumps about things which the intellect scorns." - from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, by Mark Twain
by dstar442005 on
Aug 28, 2008 9:42 PM CDT
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wrong thread
"You can't reason with your heart; it has its own laws, and thumps about things which the intellect scorns." - from A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, by Mark Twain
by dstar442005 on
Aug 28, 2008 10:07 PM CDT
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I'd do that trade in a second, especially if it's Harrison and not Hurley we had to deal
Though it would of course depend on who the ambiguous “low level minor league guy” is. There’s a big difference between a Hamburger-type and adding in Font or M-Per as a throw-in, ya know?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Aug 28, 2008 11:05 PM CDT
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The Hamburglar
with his second save…no hits, no runs.
What's the rumpus?
by Hypo-Luxa on
Aug 28, 2008 11:38 PM CDT
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Harrison not Hurley
You sure about that? Same age, identical WHIPs in minors over a nearly identical number of starts, Harrison has the better K/BB ratio and keeps the ball in the park.
O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen,
und freudenvollere.
by t ball on
Aug 29, 2008 12:09 AM CDT
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Harrison
Mark me down as one who prefers Harrison to Hurley.
--Brian
by BCanfield on
Aug 29, 2008 7:24 AM CDT
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+1
me too
say they aree the exact same SP – one is lefty, one is righty – who do you take? lol
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on
Aug 29, 2008 9:03 AM CDT
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but really
i like harrison more
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on
Aug 29, 2008 9:03 AM CDT
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Speaking of the Lunch Man
had his 2nd save with another inning tonight.
2 1 run saves. That’s a closer that earns it.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 28, 2008 11:33 PM CDT
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why do we have this obsession....
Why is everyone in a rush to trade some of our best prospects? I would understand if we were 2 games back of the angels or wild card. but we are 2 games back from .500. This is not close to being a great team. An amazing offense…YES! but a great team…NO!… This is a rebuilding year. We will not win until our top pitching prospects get up here. We will not win until our top pitching prospects get up here. I repeat…we will not…ok you get the point.
We are a sub .500 team. We not only need starting pitching, but relievers too. Let’s play a game….Who is our closer next year? Who is our set up? And here’s the catch, you have to name someone you are confident in.
My theory is People want JD to trade these players off. so when he does and the trade ends up a bust they can talk about how dumb JD is for trading our near ready players for a pitcher who will be here for 2 years.
by 1man5stools on
Aug 28, 2008 11:40 PM CDT
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let me repeat...
this is a rebuilding year…lets rebuild…not tear down
by 1man5stools on
Aug 28, 2008 11:41 PM CDT
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I don't say this in support of any particular move
…but part of building is taking the assets you’ve built up and reallocating them in ways that better meet your needs. Look at pretty much any successful building team, they make deals to cash in prospects or young player for young player deals that change positions. Tampa Bay cashed in their prime guy Young to bolster their pitching and infield defense. Arizona cashed in for Haren (yes, it has been less than a perfect result).
You can wait until you are mostly built, but I don’t know that you absolutely have to. The Rangers are pretty clear on their strengths and weaknesses. It obviously requires confidence in the front office to make the right move, but assuming that, there is nothing wrong with it, imo.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by Brett Perryman on
Aug 29, 2008 12:51 AM CDT
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do you think the Rangers should target Greinke, Z?
by oc on
Aug 29, 2008 12:54 AM CDT
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I'm kind of on the fence
I’d probably say no at this point. If I’m going to trade really good assets I’d like for it to be for someone you control for more than two years. I’m not as concerned about his emotional issues, mostly just wish he had another year before FA. I am a fan of his, though, and he’s really close to what they do need.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by Brett Perryman on
Aug 29, 2008 12:59 PM CDT
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Also
No, I would not include Davis in a package deal for Greinke. I don’t see the logic in that. I can’t say that the package mentioned at the top feels like it’s enough, but I just wouldn’t deal Davis for someone I only control for two years.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by Brett Perryman on
Aug 29, 2008 1:14 PM CDT
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I agree... but
when i look at this year, where we went into it knowing it was a rebuilding year and just hoping they could somehow play .500 ball, I see 2 months where we played exceptional and 2 months where we played below average if not downright awful. While there is definitely some promise with this offense, which should only get better, We won’t be a legitimate world series contender until our top pitching prospects come up and get established. I’m all for picking up a pitcher or 2 this off season. but I don’t want to give up any of our upper level pitchers to do so.
yeah we might make it to the playoffs which would be great..but i still don’t see us going anywhere once we get there if we don’t have 3-4 very solid arms.
by 1man5stools on
Aug 29, 2008 8:30 AM CDT
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I agree that
one or two pitchers isn’t enough. Like half the staff needs to be upgraded, either by improvement or replacement. So you wouldn’t trade for someone with one or two years of control left without thinking that you have filled or will fill those other spots as well.
But trading prospects for a young pitcher isn’t counterproductive if the guy is under control for several years and you are making a positive talent evaluation. In the sense that you need multiple pitchers to have an up to par staff, yes, they are still in the development phase. But it could happen pretty fast now, especially if they did trade prospects for a major league starter and evaluated properly who to get and who they are willing to deal, because the position side of this team is just about complete, and there appear to be ample assets available to supplement and fill needs.
I just think that they’re at a point where it depends on the deal. I wouldn’t have said that two years ago.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by Brett Perryman on
Aug 29, 2008 12:57 PM CDT
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I tend to agree
In my eyes we need to answer a few questions before we start selling the farm…
1) Once 2009 concludes and we should a much better idea of whether BMac, Hurley, Harrison, Hunter and even Feldman have what it takes to be legit rotation guys. If three of this group can become solid bottom rotation guys that eliminates a need to trade for or sign a middlin’ SP. Feliz and Holland might make their MLB debuts next season, but it would be foolhardy to think they’d come up and be highly successful right off the bat.
2) See if Millwood pitches well enough to pick up his option…or if his option vests automatically (Don’t know where he’s at on the IP stipulation). If he pitches the way he has the past few starts, we have our #2 rotation guy. If not we’ll probably need to acquire one if we have any hope of contending.
3) See which catcher needs to stay and be the Ranger catcher going forward. I think that Teagarden needs to stay in AAA all year next year with MaxRam shuttling back and forth from AAA to Arlington. It’s not the ideal situation for MaxRam, but it will suffice for one year and one year only. If we finish 2009 we will see whether Laird can follow up his strong 2008, whether Salty forces his way into the line-up, whether Teagarden looks to be able to hold his own with the bat and whether MaxRam can continue to progress offensively the way many (including me) believe he can.
4) See if Andrus can do what he’s done this year in AAA for the whole of 2009. See if Davis can handle 3B sufficiently well next year (I have a sinking feeling that JD re-ups Blalock to play 1B). When Hank’s gone then Davis moves to 1B and Andrus shows he’s the future at SS in OKC, MY has to move to 3B. he just freaking has to. FOTF or not he’s gotta take one for the team.
If all 4 of these questions are answered positively then I can see trading away some key pieces for a young SP like Greinke as some pieces will show themselves to be expendable or not. I don’t think we know right now if Salty or Teagarden is the weakest link in the Catcher pool or whether Hurley or Harrison is the weakest link in the pitchers pool. I like Greinke but I do not think he is someone we should trade Salty AND a Hurley/Harrison for. If the second piece coming back with Greinke was a bit better than Ramon Ramirez, then I’d seriously consider it. But until the above questions are answered I’d rather stand pat and see what 2009 holds.
What's the rumpus?
by Hypo-Luxa on
Aug 29, 2008 12:59 AM CDT
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question
do you like leo nunez more than ramirez?
(not in this trade just in general?)
Every pitch thrown to Josh Hamilton is recorded as an E1. -- clark
by knockoutking on
Aug 29, 2008 9:05 AM CDT
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Yes
Definitely for me.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by Brett Perryman on
Aug 29, 2008 1:00 PM CDT
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Ramon Ramirez
I like Ramirez better than Nunez. Leo looks like his control just cannot be found out of the bullpen. I think we have 5 Leo Nunez’s in the organization already…
What's the rumpus?
by Hypo-Luxa on
Aug 29, 2008 1:02 PM CDT
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Who?
We may have five Leo Nunez’s, but that’s because we have some really nice pitching prospects. We do not have an excess of guys who throw 95-96 (which is what Nunez was at earlier this season when he was healthy) with a nasty slider. His stuff is quite nasty.
We have Holland and Feliz and maybe Ramirez, possibly Main. But that’s about it for prospects. On the staff, Padilla has that sort of stuff. Rupe and Madrigal are pretty close. Francisco has it. That’s about it, though.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by Brett Perryman on
Aug 29, 2008 1:06 PM CDT
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Results over Stuff
When I made that statement I wasn’t thinking of stuff, mainly the career path he’s on thus far. He’s got great stuff, there’s no denying, but if he can’t harness it, what good does it do anyone? Nunez just reminds me of a Benoit/Tejeda type who SHOULD stick as a starter with their stuff and durability, but never do, and they take their time to perform in the ’pen as well.
What's the rumpus?
by Hypo-Luxa on
Aug 29, 2008 1:15 PM CDT
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That seems possible
I guess I have an optimistic view of him. I think that he will be a top notch setup guy if he can keep his fragile frame healthy.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by Brett Perryman on
Aug 29, 2008 1:21 PM CDT
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dude
we’re gonna be good the next couple of years
-Wakes
by Wakes1331 on
Aug 29, 2008 8:38 AM CDT
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would you rather be good the next couple years or....
….very good in two years for the next 5+
by 1man5stools on
Aug 29, 2008 8:46 AM CDT
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If we're stuck on Grienke as a trade...
Salty + Hurley + Arias + one of Lemon/Vallejo/JMJ/Font for Grienke + Dan Cortes.
"But the major difference is where Showalter tried to overthink everything Washington at times seems like he isn't thinking at all. " - rentz
by hillcrest on
Aug 29, 2008 9:09 AM CDT
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Whoa.
Lemon (ok)…Vallejo (ok, kind of same thing)…JMJ (ok, they might appreciate that)…Font (whoa).
Big difference there.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on
Aug 29, 2008 9:32 AM CDT
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forget the secondary prospects
I have yet to be convinced that Salty and Hurley for Greinke is a good deal for us.
Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.
by tricer on
Aug 29, 2008 9:36 AM CDT
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Agree
He’s not the guy.
The best pitcher this team could obtain is Billingsley. Groundballer and strikeout pitcher.
You work down from there.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on
Aug 29, 2008 9:43 AM CDT
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Dodgers
You know they will start out asking for Andrus, Feliz and possibly even MaxRam + for Billingsley.
"But the major difference is where Showalter tried to overthink everything Washington at times seems like he isn't thinking at all. " - rentz
by hillcrest on
Aug 29, 2008 9:46 AM CDT
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Dodgers
I don’t see Max being a good fit for them, they have Martin at C and obviously no need for a DH.
If they want Andrus and Feliz and a couple of 10-20 ranked prospects, I’d do it – and I’m the guy that is on record saying that Andrus is the position player that I would cling to the tightest. I agree w/ hightowersmith that there isn’t a better target for the Rangers than Bills, under team control for 4 more seasons and the perfect profile.
But the Dodgers don’t have any incentive to trade him for prospects. They are a competitive team with a lot of good young ML talent and no real payroll constraints. I can’t imagine a scenario that LA would even consider trading him.
Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.
by tricer on
Aug 29, 2008 9:57 AM CDT
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the guy they would want for Billingsley
is Kinsler.
And I think I would do that.
by clark on
Aug 29, 2008 9:58 AM CDT
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yup
me too.
I didn’t think about that, but it seems to be something that would get their attention.
If they said we’ll give you Bills or Kershaw for Kins, which would you take?
Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.
by tricer on
Aug 29, 2008 10:02 AM CDT
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absolutely
as much as i love kinsler, having an All Star 2B is not required to win championships. having good, young starting pitching, however, is required.
by clark on
Aug 29, 2008 10:05 AM CDT
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we just pick one of their starters out of their rotation without sending a pitcher back...
…sure…
by oc on
Aug 29, 2008 10:07 AM CDT
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Kinsler
was having an MVP caliber year as a 25 year old signed to a very affordable contract. i think most execs would agree he is one of the most highly valued young position players in the game today.
the dodgers hitting situation over the last few years has mirrored our pitching situation, which was evidenced by the contracts they have handed out for guys like Andruw Jones and Juan Pierre. Whereas, they are a team that can pick up Chan Ho and get useful innings from him. I think the idea of adding a kid like Kinsler would certainly bring them to the table.
by clark on
Aug 29, 2008 10:11 AM CDT
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it brings them to the table...
…to tack on one of Hurley, Harrison or Hunter.
Derek Lowe is leaving… apparently, Billingsley is leaving…
yes, Kinsler straight up makes perfect sense for them.
by oc on
Aug 29, 2008 10:15 AM CDT
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you make a good point
but we are talking about LA. They are a pitching haven and they have money. I really think they will emerge as major players for Sabathia.
by clark on
Aug 29, 2008 10:18 AM CDT
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you're still short a spot in the rotation.
by oc on
Aug 29, 2008 10:19 AM CDT
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we are still short an all star 2B
everyone makes sacrifices
by clark on
Aug 29, 2008 10:41 AM CDT
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to expound on that
it would clear a path for young to move back to 2B as he ages and Andrus to take over at SS, and I agree with Tricer that I am starting to think Andrus is a guy we should all value a bit more than we currently do.
it also makes sense because, as stated above, the Dodgers are ready to win now. They will probably make a very strong push for Sabathia as well, and they have Kershaw ready to contribute as well.
still, this is a huge longshot.
by clark on
Aug 29, 2008 10:03 AM CDT
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Davis
Less proven than Kins, but more power upside.
He’s not a one-for-one, but I bet they appreciate the upgrade he provides over Loney.
Davis + Feliz + Lemon for Billingsley + Loney. I’d do it .
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on
Aug 29, 2008 10:07 AM CDT
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Andrus, Feliz +/- Max for Billingsley
Do you do it?
I lobby hard to replace Andrus with Lemon or Vallejo, and Beavan with Feliz, but I’d probably do that deal.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on
Aug 29, 2008 9:59 AM CDT
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in that scenario
they wouldn’t budge off of Andrus and Feliz, but I would make them take a lesser third player – which they would likely do, because as mentioned above, Max isn’t a good fit for an NL team with an elite catcher.
I’d offer to take Andruw Jones contract off their hands in lieu of adding the third prospect.
Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.
by tricer on
Aug 29, 2008 10:05 AM CDT
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You'd pay 18million dollars to avoid giving up Max?
Man I’d much rather give up Max and spend that 18million going butt ass wild in the ‘09 draft and IFA season. I think we’d end up with much better long term that way.
Unless you actually want Andruw here next year. Personally I have no faith in the guy to come back around, but I could understand it if you did. He’s still a rare talent when he wants to try. I think a lazy ass like him might actually fall into the “succeeds in his contract year” theory.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on
Aug 29, 2008 12:16 PM CDT
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$18 mil for Max
that breaks out to $3 million/year for the six years that we control him, and since I think he is going to be a selective, mashing, run producing beast from the right side that will break up the lefties in the middle of our lineup, then yeah, I’d rather pay for a year of Andruw than trade him away.
Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.
by tricer on
Aug 29, 2008 2:24 PM CDT
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You're probably speaking in hypothetical fashion
but why in the world would the Dodgers deal their ace for prospects?
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by Brett Perryman on
Aug 29, 2008 1:02 PM CDT
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Yah it 's hypothetical
But…
-Need for offense
-Confidence in Kershaw
-Pitching depth
You have to bowl them over, give them something they really need, of a quality and quantity they can’t refuse.
The Rangers have those resources.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on
Aug 29, 2008 1:19 PM CDT
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I agree with all of that in a vacuum
But I don’t think that it makes any sense for the Dodgers, who are not rebuilding and who have enough money that they don’t have to worry about guys approaching FA like the Royals, to trade someone who they’ve invested all of this time and money and effort in and have seen turn into exactly what they and everyone needs. It doesn’t make sense to just turn around and repeat that process. To bowl them over to the point where they would actually do it, the return would have to be absurd, something that makes zero sense from our standpoint.
It needs to be a different situation, either a different organization or more of a gamble.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by Brett Perryman on
Aug 29, 2008 1:24 PM CDT
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Depending on what happens with Manny, their only real glaring need would be middle infield and possibly 3B. I don’t think we would be a great match for them.
"But the major difference is where Showalter tried to overthink everything Washington at times seems like he isn't thinking at all. " - rentz
by hillcrest on
Aug 29, 2008 9:47 AM CDT
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salty + hurley and they make out ok, but im not letting them have font.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
by rentz on
Aug 29, 2008 9:43 AM CDT
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I'd very easily
trade Salty, Harrison, Cruz, Arias and one of our less significant lower level prospects for Greinke and Ramirez (a seemingly very useful young bullpen arm). Salty is the most tradeable catcher we have, Cruz was going to be let go at the end of the year, Arias is “peaking,” and though Harrison is a good lefty prospect, we’re getting two pitchers that can immediately have an impact at the major league level in return.
I would not trade Salty, Hurley, JMJ, Arias and any of our favorite “sleeper arms” at the lower level.
Greinke may not be a sure-thing # 1, but he’s at the very least a young sure-thing # 2 with a # 1 ceiling. Ramirez is, as mentioned before, very useful to us in the pen. Out of the group I am giving up, I am only really going to miss Harrison, and Greinke is certainly a better pitcher of the two, so not really, and we get to keep Hurley, the home-grown talent we’ve been shipping off to success so much recently. We still have 3 other better defensive catchers, and all of a sudden, the Tex and A-Rod trades become a very nice combined return of Greinke, Feliz, Andrus – a very good three right there – with Beau Jones and Ramirez to boot.
"So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know... "
by Walter Sobchak on
Aug 29, 2008 10:59 AM CDT
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Anybody wantto try and get with some of the other SBNsites and try to start an AL West top 20 prospects?
by laxtonto on
Aug 29, 2008 2:27 PM CDT
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Don't really think we need their help
We know our division pretty well, and everyone but LAA has plenty of high profile prospects to get us well past 20. This division is much stronger, especially on a per team basis, than the ALE.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by Brett Perryman on
Aug 29, 2008 3:19 PM CDT
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Well Sea and LAA could give us a little trouble
just becasue i have a hard tie of ever getting a good read on there top guys
If we did just upper crust guys you got
Holland, Feliz, Smoak and Andrus for Texas
Trunfeld and Clement (if he still qualifies) for Sea
Trevor Cahill, Brett Anderson, Iona, and ??? for Oak
And i have no clue for LAA
by laxtonto on
Aug 29, 2008 3:41 PM CDT
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Additionally
Seattle: Aumont, Ramirez, Saunders, Halman, Pineda
Oak: Mazzaro, Gio, Carter and some of the 2B
LAA: Adenhart, Walden, S Rodriguez, Wood (those two are closing in on prospect limits and even by BA standards Arredondo is only a couple of innings from passing it), Conger, Bourjos
Without checking anything or thinking about it, you might have something like (in no particular order): Holland, Feliz, Smoak, Andrus, Main, M Ramirez, Cahill, Anderson, Inoa, Carter, Gio, Aumont, JC Ramirez, Saunders, Triunfel, Halman, Walden, Bourjos, Adenhart, S Rodriguez (assuming that Wood graduates but he doesn’t)
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by Brett Perryman on
Aug 29, 2008 4:16 PM CDT
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Also
“much stronger” is definitely overstating it. But Boston and NY are sort of on a back end of the ebb/flow process after promoting a lot of guys, TB is just a little down after some promotions and McGee’s injury, and Toronto isn’t that hot after Snider.
Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return
by Brett Perryman on
Aug 29, 2008 4:19 PM CDT
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