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2008 vs. 2004 (Is there really more hope?)

The guys on the Ticket brought this up this morning and I thought it was interested.

We're so excited now about the future of the Rangers, almost sure of their dynasty run from 2010-2016 or beyond.  But how sure are we that 2009 and 2010 won't be 2005 and 2006 all over again.  What's really different in 2008 than in 2004?  Are we so sure that our great minor league system is better today than in 2004 (it seems likely, though).  Anyway, I'm not taking a side, but rather would love to read a discussion of more knowledgable people.

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the attitude of management

is changed (i hope). we are really focused on sensible, long-term development from within instead of trying to patch together a team through a combination of acquisitional methods. im not saying FA signings cant be good here and there but it was like we had no identity; we werent a spend-or-die high revenue team like the yankees and we werent a low revenue scout-and-develop organization like the As.

The fact that we have a cornucopia of talent at pretty much all levels of the system doesnt hurt, but the promise of that talent wont be fulfilled if we dont stick to the plan. i see us as being competitive in 09 and 2010, but theres nothing to say things will be much better than they are this year (i.e. fringe wild-card contender). But where I see our organizational plan being truly effective is throughout the duration of the 2010s. As we draft and groom more and more talent down there and as our players from the 07 and 08 drafts hopefully progress we could be a true AL powerhouse ala the Indians of the 90s.

by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Aug 5, 2008 11:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

But weren't we focused on long term dev then too?

It’s hard to remember, but weren’t the up-and-coming prospects like Ramon Nivar, Laynce Nix, Teix, Adrian Gonzalez, Benoit, Laird and such expected to be something, too? Like Arias was? Like Harrison and Feliz and other are now?

I realize we signed some FAs, but looking over the roster, it wasn’t as bad as I remember.

by Apes and Androids on Aug 5, 2008 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

yeah we had young talent

though not as much as now. but i think it was thought of as just sort of a surplus commodity, something that could either be traded or plugged in for cheap, VORP-neutral quality with the offchance it might someday exceed that. Also it seems like the vast majority of those prospects and definitely the better ones were hitters. Now, our primary goal is to build a deep and talented system with good pitching throughout. Maybe Im being naive and biased, I just think the organizational outlook is better now and we understand what it takes to compete over the long-term in today’s environment. That experience in 2004 followed by 2.5 down years kind of emphasized that the way we were currently doing things could provide only sporadic success at best.

by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Aug 5, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

2004 vs 2008

In 2004, the team was driven by its AllStar infield: Teixeira, Soriano, Young, and Blalock. Obviously all of them had long-term potential, but even then there were questions about Soriano. But the outfield was a bad hodgepodge of Dellucci, Nix, Mench, Eric Young, GMJ. None of those guys really were reliable going forward (though GMJ did get better). Pitching was more pivotal to that team, with good seasons by Kenny Rogers, Ryan Drese, and Coco. Coco was legit, as was Rogers, but I don’t think anyone thought Drese was a cornerstone.

In 2008, the team is stronger offensively – with Hamilton, Kinsler, Davis (and Young to a lesser extent) all being pieces who will be reliable going forward. Bradley appears to have found a home here, which will help if he stays. We’re set at catcher, as we all know, and Murphy/Boggs help in the outfield. Its not yet a perfect team, but its close to being the best offense in the league.

On the flip side, the 2008 pitching staff has been worse than the 2004 staff, but I would argue that there is more potential with the current crop going forward. Of the 2004 staff, only Benoit and Chris Young had potential to develop into the future, whereas most guys pitching for Texas now are guys who could get better going forward. Basically, the 2008 Rangers aren’t wasting starts on guys who have no future – at least one of the Mendoza/Feldman/Harrison/Hurley bunch will look back on these days and credit the Rangers for this tough learning year

Add in the minor leaguers knocking at the door, and I think we’re in a much better situation.

by JBImaknee on Aug 5, 2008 11:58 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

revisionist history

i think people expected some things out of the other guys, too. although, i guess this year’s pitching staff is at least younger.

i just can’t look at this year’s staff and be confident that somebody will become serviceable pitcher (sans Hurley).

""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley

by ab03 on Aug 5, 2008 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

but that's

exactly what we have to see. You have to give young guys like Harrison/Hurley/Hunter/Feldman and Mendoza a shot and a chance to develop at the Major LG level before they can blossom into good SP in the majors. It doesnt just happen overnight with most young pitchers and the great thing about this year is that we’re competing despite having these growing pains with all these young pitchers. Think about this, if just two of those guys develop into something next year and our solid SP, we’ll be more in the mix next year than this year

by blalock84 on Aug 5, 2008 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've talked about this a few times

There is a lot of similarity. The lineup is strong, save a corner spot or two, and under control long term. The pitching is a mess, and while you have talent on the way, the best of it is not here yet. There are two pretty big advantages to the current situation. One, there is just more of everything. There are more position prospects on the way to supplement this fine core. There were only a couple of guys in 2004 that figured to add to what was already in place. Look at the Community Prospect Project and see how many guys are still coming. And there are way, way, way more pitching prospects, which is really the best thing working here. Two, the key SP prospect, Feliz (back then it was Danks), is almost ready.

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by Brett Perryman on Aug 5, 2008 12:00 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

It's a good question

Back then, just like today, there was a lot of talk that the minor league pitchers would be a great asset. Obviously DVD hasn’t panned out as we would have hoped. Still, I’m optimistic. The payroll has a lot less dead weight than it had back then (Chan Ho and A-Rod, in particular). And there are a number of offensive prospects to complement the young pitching. In addition, there seems to be breadth as well as depth among the young pitching. You’d have to think that at least a couple of Hunter, Harrison, Hurley, Feliz, McCarthy, etc will pan out. Certainly no sure thing, but there’s reason to be optimistic.

"You’re the only here who contributes schtick only." - brettgardner

by trza on Aug 5, 2008 12:04 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Young trade

The Young+Gonzales for Eaton+Otsuka really set that 2004 team back and dashed any hopes for 2005, especially once Eaton was hurt again. This makes me a bit leery of any potential trade for a starter the Rangers might do after the season.

Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!

by DerekSTheRed on Aug 5, 2008 12:04 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

you're a year early

the Young/Gonzalez for Eaton/Otsuka deal was after the 2005 season. As was the Soriano deal that brought in Whifferson.

by JBImaknee on Aug 5, 2008 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

ahh yes

I was mistaken. All those 3rd place finishes start to blur together after a while.

Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!

by DerekSTheRed on Aug 5, 2008 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow

You realize the Young trade was before the 2006 season not the 2004 one right?

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 5, 2008 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+Rec

Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.

by TheBZA on Aug 5, 2008 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Did you pass mavsmoneyball off to Toddy?

or you just taking a summer vacation?

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Aug 5, 2008 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

good point

Mench hit 26 bombs. Teixeira nearly hit 40. Nix showed promise before getting injured. Drese “found it” and was destined to head our rotation for the next few years. Blalock was well into his Hall of Fame career. Danks and Diamond were in the org, so we were penciling them in by 2007-2008. Newberg was telling everyone “It’s not about this year”. Let’s hope that Murphy isn’t Mench, Davis isn’t Blalock, Hurley isn’t Drese, Boggs isn’t Nix, and Hamilton doesn’t bolt like Teixeira before winning something.

by SteveP on Aug 5, 2008 12:39 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I just hope

that we’re done making pointless free agent signings like Hidalgo and Brian Jordan. Also, I dont think management really ever gave guys like Gonzalez a chance to succeed, like they’re doing with guys like Murphy, Boggs, and Harrison. Plus the quality of our pitching prospects seem far greater than what we had back then.

"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno

LSB facebook group ---->>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33345329288

by hinduplaya on Aug 5, 2008 12:40 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Derrick Holland and Feliz

are going to be the schit…. I really believe in these guys with all my heart and soul, and no one is gonna convince me otherwise.

by blalock84 on Aug 5, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1; however,

When you compare the top pitching prospects, you have:

2004: Danks, Volquez, Diamond, and Dominguez

2008: Feliz, Main, Beaven, and Holland

If you knew nothing about what these guys are doing in the majors, it would be a tough choice based on potential.

"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno

LSB facebook group ---->>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33345329288

by hinduplaya on Aug 5, 2008 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

"The guys on the Ticket brought this up this morning and..."

You really shouldn’t be counting on anything from these guys except maybe the score of the game the night before if you had to go to sleep before it was over.

Here’s all you need to know: when previewing the season this year Craig said he was interested to see what some of “these kids like Broussard” could do at the major league level.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Aug 5, 2008 2:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'm a huge P1

and have emailed with Craig back and forth and he’s very knowledgable on baseball and the rangers org. that comment was either a brain fart, or you misheard it.

by Apes and Androids on Aug 5, 2008 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

My opinion...

...which is of course just my opinion, is that their Ranger talk is almost as generic as the talk you get from Freido and Pete Stein on Diamond Talk. And that my friend is the gold standard of generic baseball talk.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Aug 5, 2008 2:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

yes, their talk is definitely generic, but most people listening don’t care much (and don’t know much) about baseball. This is football country (and tiny Mavs country).

However, that doesn’t mean that the hosts are ignorant or even average-knowledged fans of baseball. They’re forced to talk generic to keep the audience from turning the station. Notice how in-depth they go with the Cowboys.

by Apes and Androids on Aug 5, 2008 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

BS

Both Craig and George admitted the other day that they had no idea who Tommy Hunter was and both have admitted that they rarely, if ever, watched the Rangers the last couple of seasons. I realize they sucked, but come on, you’re ostensibly a sports talk show host. You lose credibility with lots of people with statements like that. I love the Ticket, but I pretty much tune out any sports talk that comes from anyone except Sturm or somtimes Norm.

by Jeff Lebowski on Aug 5, 2008 2:48 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That's your test? Tommy Hunter?

99.9% of Ranger fans don’t know who he is. If it weren’t for Adam and Jamey, I wouldn’t either. To cover all the sports like they do, they focus on the majors only, just about. I think you lack perspective on your average Ranger-fan (even above-average to very-knowledgable).

Like I said, Craig and I emailed back and forth several times, and he may not know every player in the minors, but he knew a lot about baseball.

by Apes and Androids on Aug 5, 2008 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

99.9% of Ranger fans don't have a sports radio job

...and I guarantee that a lot more than .1% of Ranger fans had at least heard of Tommy Hunter before his start.

by TRanger on Aug 5, 2008 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He has a point

It’s their job to know about these local teams. It’s not Adam’s job. You can tell Bob isn’t the biggest baseball guy, but he puts a solid effort into his program. The Musers just go through the motions when it comes to baseball.

Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.

by TheBZA on Aug 6, 2008 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Georgio doesn't have time for that.

You know what a full time job it is to get that triple cheeseburger chin, and to fill that cowlike heart with sausage?

I wonder who will be Craig’s partner after the inevitable heart attack.

"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain

by DJCahill on Aug 6, 2008 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Local teams

Last time I checked Oklahoma City wasn’t a local team. Clinton wasn’t a local team, Bakersfield wasn’t a local team. Frisco is but in the pecking order it is at or near the bottom. Just like they don’t know FC Dallas’ roster by heart they probably don’t know Friscos.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 6, 2008 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

I think there is a misunderstanding about being a sports radio host that all you do is goof off, talk about sports and not really work that hard. So you have ample time off and since you love sports, you’re gonna keep up with all 10,000 amateur and pro teams in the area and all the area golfers and all the national sports news. Stupid.

by Apes and Androids on Aug 6, 2008 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think there is an understanding

that the hosts, specifically of the ticket, with the exception of maybe Bob and Norm, don’t know much more about sports than your next door neighbor.

I think, except for maybe their pet passions, i.e., Craig with Basketball, especially Spurs, George with Golf, most folks at the Ticket follow other sports less closely than folks on this board do.

"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain

by DJCahill on Aug 6, 2008 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

See, that's stupid.

You don’t think that by hosting a 4-hour+ show every day for 15 years (and research on top of that) maybe just naturally improves your sports-knowledge?

Do you spend that much time on sports? If so, I’d gather you’re a loser, or work as a journalist or a talk show host.

by Apes and Androids on Aug 6, 2008 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are at least 20 folks

on this board who have demonstrated more knowledge about baseball than Craig and George.

I don’t care how many hours they talk sports. My mom could talk sports 5 hours a day and still know nothing about it, George and Craig are almost able to duplicate that feat.

Most of the folks who work in sports talk just plain aren’t as smart as the lawyers, doctors and engineers on this board alone.

"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain

by DJCahill on Aug 6, 2008 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thats great

Why don’t you go out and start a sports show where you talking nothing but baseball. Spend alot of time talking about the minor leagues. And see how your ratings measure up against theirs. There is a reason they dominate the ratings. They talk just enough sports to satisfy people and mix in the proper amount of normal guy stuff to keep people listening and laughing.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Aug 6, 2008 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I got no problem with what they do

I just have problem with folks passing them off as experts on sports.

Because knowledge of sports has damn little to do with their success.

Most of the guys at the Ticket don’t know any more about sports than the random guy at a sports bar.

"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain

by DJCahill on Aug 6, 2008 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wow.

They’re not supposed to be experts on all things sports. If there were no internet, you’d no nothing of the minors either.

by Apes and Androids on Aug 6, 2008 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Responding to both of you

I don’t think Cahill is trying to recommend a “Rangers Prospect Hour” but there’s a difference between some familiarity with your farm system and doing a week long prospect countdown.

Tommy Hunter is the 13th man to start a game for the Rangers this year will be 6’3”, 260 lb. RHP Tommy Hunter, the 54th overall selection in the 2007 draft. Yeah: just 51 weeks after making his professional debut at short season-A Spokane, the University of Alabama alum starts a big league game.

That was posted at 5:30 AM on Friday, the day Tommy Hunter made his start. That took me 30 seconds to find on a google search for “Tommy Hunter Rangers”. It’s their JOB to pass this kind of information to their listeners. I’m not asking for a scouting report, but it’s worth mentioning that he was a Supplemental 1st last year rather than just “some guy”.

Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.

by TheBZA on Aug 6, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

While I somewhat agree...

it still doesn’t mean they’re ignorant. Or know nothing about baseball. You think Peter King knows every senior WR that’s draftable for 2009? And he’s considered the NFL expert.

by Apes and Androids on Aug 6, 2008 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Completely ignorant

That’s not what I’m saying. I just think they blow it off, which isn’t right.

Bob Sturm on the other hand seems to challenge himself and push the show. His recent study on Kinsler and his range factor is something you would never hear on The Musers. Do they have a different style of show? Yes. But I don’t think Bob is that big of a baseball fan. He just puts a lot more thought and effort into his show if you ask me.

Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.

by TheBZA on Aug 6, 2008 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think you listen that much

because they’ve talked about the team in depth like that Kinsler discussion before.

by Apes and Androids on Aug 6, 2008 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've listened enough

to D&M in the past to say they rarely talk in any depth about baseball, and most of their discussion is very superficial.

I haven’t listened to them much in a while, because I found their show dragged when they talked sports. They just aren’t all that knowledgeable. You can tell George has an interest in football, and Junior likes Basketball, especially the spurs, but when it comes to baseball they don’t have much knowledge or passion.

Their show is much better when they talk guy stuff, or have Gordo driving the boat.

"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain

by DJCahill on Aug 6, 2008 2:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So you've missed all the segments

of them talking about how George grew up loving the White Sox and still follow them. And how Junior grew up a huge Ranger fan. They had a segment last week where they went in-depth from JD’s hiring to now, and how things have changed, and it showed to me they were pretty knowledgable.

by Apes and Androids on Aug 6, 2008 2:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I've heard them plenty of times

in the past and when it comes to baseball, they sound unfocused and illprepared.

Now, I haven’t listened to them in a couple of years, but I doubt they’ve gotten significantly better. When it comes to baseball, it just didn’t sound like they do their homework very well.

I’d be surprised if either one watches 20 rangers games a year. They may see highlights on more than 20, but I doubt either watches that many games.

"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain

by DJCahill on Aug 6, 2008 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

However, it is their job.

Basicly, what we normally hear from them on baseball is their regurgitated takes from DMN and ESPN, which is where they get most of their information. They don’t avail themselves of any more access to baseball information than anyone else in this forum have.

You can hear the amount of homework that Bob and Norm do. You really can’t tell that George or Craig do much homework when it comes to baseball.

You are much better off getting your Ranger information from Jamey, Adam, Zywica, or hundreds of other sources than you would be getting it from George and Craig. George and Craig simply know less about the Rangers than the other sources.

"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain

by DJCahill on Aug 6, 2008 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You're right

I don’t listen to D&M that much. Just 15 minutes to work or so. And when they do talk baseball I usually get so pissed off I turn on my CD player.

Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.

by TheBZA on Aug 6, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Also

Not as in depth as Bob. There’s no way they were explaining, comparing or discussing anything like .

Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.

by TheBZA on Aug 6, 2008 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

G damnit

range factor

Plaschke: Scioscia, the former Dodgers catcher, is the model manager who has created an atmosphere of winning.
Junior:It's that simple. Mike Scioscia brings a Glade Plug-In labeled "Winning™" into the clubhouse and everyone who breathes it in gains 15 points in average.

by TheBZA on Aug 6, 2008 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

.

the ticket does not know anything about baseball. i forgot who it was but the Rangers were playing the yankees and ian had a lead-off double, he stole third with 1 out and they were saying that his steal was pointless because he was already in scoring position. i guess they have never heard of a sac fly or the infield playing in.

as for the comparision of the 2004 and 2008 rangers. we have a younger team, better chemistry, a way better farm system with tons of talented young arms both in the minors and in the majors, and well buck is not here

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 5, 2008 3:25 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

What's different?

Development of young players!

"Sooner or later, prospects kill you, because you hang onto them." - Greggo, 11/22/2005

by Agreen07 on Aug 5, 2008 5:43 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The only real similarity

Is the laundry.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Aug 5, 2008 6:31 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

2008 vs. 2004

This Rangers team looks to be better in just about each way. The IF is basically a wash. I understand the OF then had promise, but there were plenty of holes in it. Nix had to learn to take a walk if he wanted to be successful. Looch was 30 and had a below average year to fill in as our LF. Mench was probably the lone bright spot in that OF. He just couldn’t cut it against righties in the future. Certainly nothing like the Bradley/Hamilton/Byrd/Boggs/Murphy combo we have going now which provides amazing defense with the great offense. And then the pitching now has 22-25 year old guys like Hurley, Hunter, Harrison, Feldman, and Mendoza in it to go with a couple of vets vs. a rotation anchored by a 39 year old Rogers and 28 year old sinkerball pitcher with the Rangers hoping to have something in Benoit, Dickey, Da Ho, and I’m pretty sure we had a good few Wasdin starts too. We still have the same crappy results, but with much better potential giving us those results.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Aug 5, 2008 7:04 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The IF is basicly a wash?

Hand me what you are smoking.

"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain

by DJCahill on Aug 5, 2008 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

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