What should be done with C.J.?
by tdi1985 on Aug 5, 2008 11:10 PM CDT
64 comments
I know CJ has a lot of fans on here, especially those of us that were around LSB when he was. But obviously something has to be done at this point. There is going to be a lot of discussion about what should be done with CJ, so I just wanted to help the situation by making one thread that we can centralize the discussion. On top of that, I'm curious what the community opinion is at the moment. So go ahead and vote in the poll, about what you think needs to be done with CJ at this point.
In my relatively unknowledgeable opinion, he at least needs to be put on the DL, and used as a set-up man the rest of the way. He won't be worse than Wright in that role. I don't think there is one man on this team that can really handle full-time closer duties at this point, so I would suggest that you use a combination of Eddie and Frankie depending on the batters you're facing. I also really want to see more discussion on stretching CJ out in the Arizona Fall League, ST next year, or in the minors early next year.
Based on the new information, with CJ being put on the DL with bone spurs.... I reworked the poll with new options. Pick your answer based on what you think should happen with CJ keeping in mind that he might not be coming back until next year.
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I think
they gave up on him as a starter too soon.
"We live, we die, and the wheels on the bus go round and round." - Tony Romo
by kentbenfer on Aug 5, 2008 11:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think they didn't make him a lefty specialist
soon enough.
"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain
by DJCahill on Aug 6, 2008 8:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
CJ
He can’t throw strikes and only has two, very inconsistent pitches. What makes you think that is the resume to succeed as a starter?
by uthornfan on Aug 6, 2008 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so...
do you think that being a good starter would make you a good closer?
"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2
by tdi1985 on Aug 6, 2008 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
CJ
I don’t think he has the stuff/mental toughness/command/control to be a closer or a starter.
If he came back and magically had great command and control for the first time in his career, he could be a closer since he throws in the mid 90s and has a nice slider. But since he has never had that type of command before, I don’t see him ever getting it.
by uthornfan on Aug 6, 2008 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Were you a Ranger fan in 2007?
What do you make of his 2007 numbers? You think he showed lack of control when he put up a 3.03 ERA, 63 ks and 33 BBs in 68.1 innings?
"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2
by tdi1985 on Aug 6, 2008 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes I was a Ranger fan last year and have been my whole life
And that is 4.3 walks per nine innings, hardly the control you want for a closer. I want a closer that comes in and throws strikes. One that gets saves in 10-15 pitches, not the 20-25 pitches that it took CJ. I want CJ to do well, I just don’t think he is a closer.
by uthornfan on Aug 6, 2008 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The argument
isn’t that he should be a closer. The argument is that he could be a serviceable starter. You don’t think those numbers make him a serviceable starter?
"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2
by tdi1985 on Aug 7, 2008 1:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
CJ
Why do you think he can be a starter? If it takes him 20-25 pitches each inning, he would only last four or five innings and then we would have to go to the pen.
Also, don’t you think that his velocity is going to suffer if he has to pace himself, instead of just giving it everything he has for one inning? Until he can throw more quality strikes and get hitters out, he doesn’t have a future as a starter or reliever.
Sure, if CJ could control things than he could be a starter. But when a guy is 27-28 years old, it is a little late to be saying if he could just have better command and control. If he hasn’t learned to command his stuff yet, I have no reason to believe he will learn after he has another round of elbow surgery. If he was 22-23 it would be one thing, but he is not.
by uthornfan on Aug 7, 2008 1:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You really think
numbers achieved as a closer project to a starter?
Closer’s numbers always look better.
"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain
by DJCahill on Aug 7, 2008 9:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You know...
on top of the fact that I think he’s shown some flashes of being able to do what it takes to be a starter…
Don’t you think that there are some things that change when your approach and focus is on being a starter? Couldn’t thinks change and get better, when he gets back to a regimen that gears his game, his training and his mental state to being a starter. Some guys simply can’t warm up quickly enough to be a serviceable reliever. Some guys just don’t have dominant stuff to be a closer. Some guys (especially when healthy), have a mixture of stuff that if controlled right, he can get through a line up a few times.
If C.J. were in the mentality of closing, his entire approach is going to change, and you might see improvements.
"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2
by tdi1985 on Aug 7, 2008 1:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Watching him tonight was the final straw
He doesn’t have what it takes to be a closer.
He may get healthy and he may get his mechanics back in shape and he may rediscover his command. But the real problem with Ceej is above the shoulders. I’d just as soon try to salvage him as a late inning set up guy, but if it was me, he probably wouldn’t be pitching in the closer role again.
Warner Madrigal makes Ezequiel Astacio look downright handsome.
by tricer on Aug 5, 2008 11:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
btw...
We’ll assume that if you think he should be optioned at all… you don’t think he should return as the closer.
"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2
by tdi1985 on Aug 5, 2008 11:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
too late
CJ on DL with bone spurs. He will probably be out for the rest of the year.
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on Aug 5, 2008 11:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
re-worked the poll
with the new information.
"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2
by tdi1985 on Aug 5, 2008 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BTW, people with bone spurs don’t throw 96….
by Ryin A on Aug 5, 2008 11:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nolan could
throw 96 without an ulnar nerve…..haha.
by Ryin A on Aug 5, 2008 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
perhaps something more to this, not saying anything but I had bonespurs in my throwing elbow and I couldn’t even wipe my ass.
by Ryin A on Aug 5, 2008 11:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
there is such a huge problem in major league baseball
with players being too proud or too stubborn to admit and address injury problems openly. I mean, think about CJ’s cryptic answers to the media about his injuries the other day. Maybe he was just keeping information to himself completely.
"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2
by tdi1985 on Aug 5, 2008 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This guy
Just needs a hug. lol
You know he probably still comes on here and sees what fans are saying about him. I’ll be the first to say it, I was on him really hard a couple games ago, but it’s gotten to the point where you can just tell he is absolutely defeated. What else can you say that everyone doesn’t already know? He needs someone to coach him and get him out of his own head.
by texaschief on Aug 5, 2008 11:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
In all seriousness
he needs to stop coming in here and reading what us schlubs have to say and just go get after it and throw like he knows how.
Seems like he’s going to have surge per Grant at DMN blog…..so we may have to wait awhile.
by Ryin A on Aug 5, 2008 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the truth about CJ is this...
...he’s in a slump… players go through slumps… he’s not injured. he’s fine. he’s just tired of feeling like he’s letting his team down.
but, whether you like it or not, he’s still a part of this team.
i won’t give up on him, because from what i can see… it just looks like he’s trying too hard. he’s overthinking… the walks behind the mound between pitches… the “Iron Man” music…
look at the way he walked off the mound tonight… HE FORGOT HE HAD THE BALL IN HIS HAND.
he’s just not there.
i suggest all of you withhold judgement… because the only person who knows what’s in his head… is himself.
no DFAs… none of that… he’s just not having fun…
we watch and play the game to have fun… we don’t watch the games to get pissed off at people… that’s for Mariner fans.
nobody…. NOBODY… expected us to be where we are today. relax, Ceej.
by oc on Aug 5, 2008 11:47 PM CDT reply actions 7 recs
I pretty much agree with you
no one would really disagree with this, or think otherwise…
but I really want to see him succeed. He has been in a bad spot lately, but some change is needed, just so he can improve himself.
I think something we often overlook, is that this is only his second full year, and that he has to deal with the emotions of the role he’s been placed in. It can’t be easy.
"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2
by tdi1985 on Aug 5, 2008 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well... i thought he kept the ball... apprarently he flicked it...
...he wouldn’t have done it if he were having fun.
he’s just down right now. fortunately for him, there’s living proof that people make it through hard times…
by oc on Aug 5, 2008 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
plenty of examples in the locker room
despite what some reporters have assumed about him. I believe C.J. is very tough mentally, and he will be able to work himself through this time that could take a toll on the best of ballplayers.
"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2
by tdi1985 on Aug 6, 2008 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ACTUALLY...
...HE DID HOLD ON TO THE BALL…
by oc on Aug 6, 2008 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NO HE DIDNT, GO WATCH BASEBALL TONIGHT, HE FLICKED IT
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on Aug 6, 2008 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for this
So many of my own thoughts.
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
"If I buy this team, Chris Davis will end up suing me for sexual harassment." - Me
"Oh, but it will be worth it. a few million to you at that point will be pocket change." - LAMuscleFag
by baseballismyboyfriend on Aug 6, 2008 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think
he could stand to dial down the intensity a bit. his body language when he gets upset with himself is not good. opposing batters see that and i promise you it relaxes them.
by SteveP on Aug 6, 2008 12:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
dammit I should have read this thread
...before I posted in the other one. So much of what I said already has been.
by Black Francis on Aug 6, 2008 3:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get
Why everybody defaults to “It’s all in his head”. Why can’t we say that he’s physically sucking ass and can’t perform? Is it just because he seems like a nice guy?
by brettgardner on Aug 6, 2008 12:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't speak for everyone...
but for me at least his stuff still looks good. He just seems to be over-thinking everything. Walking around on the back of the mound and talking to himself. I do think OC has some valid points. The guy just started struggling a little and then it all avalanched on him. He’s a really quirky guy and seemed that he wanted that job so bad that he put a ton of pressure on himself. When he failed once or twice he started to question himself and just couldn’t take it. I don’t think he has been able to forget a bad outing and put it behind him. He has just let it build up ‘til he finally just broke down tonight. Just my opinion, maybe Imy impression of him is all wrong.
Although it doesn’t hurt that he was a pretty cool guy when he was posting here either. I’m sure that has made him a fan favorite to some here.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 6, 2008 12:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
i wasn’t around here when he posted, what were some of the controversial things he said
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on Aug 6, 2008 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
because in between all the suck... is gold...
...CJ was crucial in New York…
...just the other day he got a three out save… only allowing one baserunner. some might scoff at that, but, compared to his other outings… it’s better.
study the man… his habits… why is it necessary to walk behind the mound every pitch? is it for show? are you really thinking about what you’re going to throw next? why? there’s no reason. just get back up there and keep firing. don’t give the hitter time to think. he knows you have a reputation.
we know your infallible… nobody’s perfect. just go out there and be yourself…
mix up your pitches. Quentin was expecting the fastball. he studied your scouting report.
you had trouble finding the zone tonight… Sexson was waiting on your fastball… big deal… tomorrow’s another day.
by oc on Aug 6, 2008 12:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I applaude
your positivity. However, I see it a little differently. CJ has been a closer for almost right at a full season now. Not counting tonight he had a 5.02 ERA in that time period with 103 baserunners allowed in 66.1 innings. For his career he has allowed an .825 OPS to RHB vs. a .581 OPS to LHB. He has good stuff, but hasn’t ever really had any command. Some guys just don’t. That’s part of it. He is a big league quality pitcher, just not closer quality.
"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08
by badradiorules on Aug 6, 2008 1:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's called a prolonged slump i guess
why can’t people admit that he sucks as closer and the team needs to explore where (if anywhere) he fits in this organization (AFTER his attitude improves)
by sam in so cal on Aug 6, 2008 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you're right.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 6, 2008 12:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree
but he is actually injured, and he didnt forget to hand the ball, he tossed the ball to wash then wash pulled him back and told him you dont toss the ball to me, you hand me the ball
when he is healthy he is a great closer, look at last year, they need to get him healthy, completely healthy then out him back out there(hopefully this year).
the good thing is we have eddie, who is 24 for 24 in hold/save oppurtunities
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on Aug 6, 2008 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no he didn't.
the ball was in his left hand.
by oc on Aug 6, 2008 12:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
go watch baseball tonight
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on Aug 6, 2008 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i did?
...the ball was in his left hand.
Wash grabbed him… THEN he flicked it.
by oc on Aug 6, 2008 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i watched it again
wash came to the mound, cj never forgot to give it to him, cj tossed him the ball and walked off, wash grabbed cj then gave the ball back to cj so cj could HAND the ball to wash
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on Aug 6, 2008 1:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i just hope
this doesn’t affect the team. since everyone is saying everyone was “down” in the clubhouse.
How's Dshep's ass taste?
by iorange555 on Aug 6, 2008 12:09 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
A player put on the DL usually shows up to the games and travels
right? Would it be any different with CJ?
I mean, either way, if you take him out of the clubhouse, it might remove some tension… or if you put him on the bench, it gives him the chance to show some sincere and genuine support for his teammates.
"that suzuki guy should go back to making cars" - My girlfriend after C.J.'s close in game 2
by tdi1985 on Aug 6, 2008 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DLed players
don’t normally travel with the team unless they’re going to be activated on the road trip…
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on Aug 6, 2008 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DL
They generally don’t travel they just stay in the metroplex and workout and rehab and the what not. I see Blalock all the time at the gym working on his fitness. It could be different for CJ if he is out for the year with surgery he might be shipped out to Suprise for rehab.
This is the Texas Rangers, professional destroyers of hope, we're talking about. - BAC
by nikpin on Aug 6, 2008 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
wow guy on KRLD.....
How's Dshep's ass taste?
by iorange555 on Aug 6, 2008 12:12 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
if anybody saw it
but the BBTN minute or whatever talking about the rangers playoff chances
How's Dshep's ass taste?
by iorange555 on Aug 6, 2008 12:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
what edition? 9 or 11
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on Aug 6, 2008 1:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sure go to the basball section on espn.com then look at the videos its right there
How's Dshep's ass taste?
by iorange555 on Aug 6, 2008 1:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
pretty legit analysis, buck actually knows stuff
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on Aug 6, 2008 1:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
CJ is hurting and in a slump
I think he was over pitched this year, and wore himself out, being the gamer that he is he went out there when he should not have, all of the fans who wanted his head need to realize that not all of what happened was his doing., this guy bleeds ranger blue, he really seems to like being a Ranger, so let’s give him some human compassion rather than turn on him when he is down and hope that it all works out for him, i for one will, because when the guy is on, he is really on and is a real bulldog on the mound.
by TRFAN on Aug 6, 2008 8:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
From all appearances
CJ is injured, causing him to lose confidence in his stuff. This happens all the time and ordinarily is very understandable. It remains a possibility that this story is exaggerated for reasons that can be guessed at but not truly known.
I think the rest of the team is disappointed in CJ’s reaction to the situation in that he cannot see beyond his own misery and pouts while the rest of the team is trying to dig in. Contrast CJ’s reaction yesterday to Kinslers’s the other night, bouncing around like Daffy Duck after Byrd’s granny, even while mired in a deep three week slump. I’m not making a direct comparison of slump to injury, but the comparison is still valid.
by mcgee48c on Aug 6, 2008 9:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Let Him Get Healthy
I think we just need to let C.J. get the bone spurs taken care of and chill with all this Sapruder-esque analysis over him flipping the ball to Washington last night. It’s obvious he’s been frustrated for a while now and it’s also obvious he’s not been consistent nor effective for a while now.
Let him get the elbow taken care of, rehab it and come back to the bullpen when he’s ready to go and not a moment sooner. If that’s this year, then hell yes you bring him back to the bullpen this year and let him pitch in setup if Guardado’s got the closer gig on lockdown. If Guardado doesn’t have the closer gig on lockdown, you let C.J. have some shots at save situations.
If he’s not back until 2009, hopefully the Rangers will bring Gagne back and then everything will be fine. Or something.
by Mister Naxal on Aug 6, 2008 3:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Notes
Bone spurs are not the same, or even a specific defined condition from one person to another. Hopefully CJ can get either laser or arthroscopic relief without intrusive surgery. And hopefully his situation does not include permanent rotator cuff damage. Yeah, I know … forearm pain. It can result in the neural downstream from damage higher up. Here’s a worthwhile read on bone spurs.
http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/bone-spur-topic-overview
I’d think the priorities are 1) good diagnosis 2) precise treatment for lasting effect 3) recuperation and recovery 4) get the mindset right about it, treat it as a fixable thing 5) take a sufficient rehab assignment to find out what he can and can’t do.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Aug 6, 2008 3:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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