9 Starters
I’ve had this idea for a while now, and a stat Josh Lewin threw out last night reminded me of it. It concerned Sidney Ponson and how his effectiveness goes down as hitters faced him multiple times through a game. I’m not a stats guy but I bet a lot of pitchers have similar diminished success as they go through a game.
What if a team had the strategy of only letting a pitcher face a hitter once per game? What if you had 3 starters for every game and a pitcher was expected to go through the order once or twice at most (a 3 inning average)? So your staff would be 9 starters and maybe 3 reliever types. There would be a 3 day rotation so a starter would get 2 or 3 days rest between his 3 inning stints. If a pitcher just didn’t have it on a given day you move up the rotation or use a reliever, but you can afford to get him out of there quick because you have other starters ready for that day. Likewise you can let someone go twice through the lineup if they’re mowing em down. This also seems like a possible economical approach to dealing with the free agent pitching market. Sabathia is going to cost some team Barry Zitoesque money and there’s no guarantee he will continue to perform like he has in the past, because his success depends on a lot of little fragile ligaments and sinews that are not built to take the punishment they get from a pitcher throwing a ball at 90mph 120 times every 5 days. With 9 starters you stress the arms less, (very good for a young pitching staff.) You need 9 average/slightly-better-than-average pitchers rather than 3 or 4 brilliant ones. And I bet you can assemble a good staff for about 20 million with some veterans and young arms, rather than paying 20 a year for a Barry Zito.
This also addresses something that has always bugged me about the way games are traditionally managed. Managers are very hesitant to bring in a reliever early in the game. If Luis Mendoza is getting lit up in the first, why do we have to wait for the game to get away before we put in Dustin Nippert? If Mendoza only throws 20 pitches and gets 1 out on a start, just move his next start up a day because he’s rested, and if Nippert goes 4 strong, puts up zeros and throws 80 pitches move him back a day and give him an extra day rest.
Only time would tell if this approach would help keep pitchers healthy, but it stands to reason that if you spread the work out more evenly between 12 guys you have more luck keeping everybody healthy. Another problem of course is how to test it out. You’d probably get resistance from pitchers and managers because it’s not traditional, but neither was relief pitching many years ago. I guess a minor league team having a bad season could experiment with it for a few weeks and see how it worked.
There are many better baseball minds than mine out there in LSB land, what do you think?
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26 comments
Comments
instead of each game
I am not sure if something like this is worth implementing for a whole staff, but I do remember suggesting we use Loe and CJ Wilson as tandem starters back when people wanted to transition Wilson from a reliever back to a starter.
Loe is just the sort of pitcher who would benefit from this set up.
by clark on Aug 7, 2008 11:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Loe is a great example
I know there are pitchers out there that get better the more times they go through the order but I bet it’s more common to get worse.
by jcAustin on Aug 7, 2008 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something like this ...
has been talked about before. Many pronosticators have said something like this will be the next evolution in pitching. It will just take someone like LaRussa to implent and prove that it will work (if it will work).
by northtexan95 on Aug 7, 2008 11:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I believe LaRussa did try something like this...
...late in his A’s tenure.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on Aug 7, 2008 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep...
he did, and it failed miserably.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 7, 2008 9:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do you remember the year?
I have been trying to find some info on that experiment.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on Aug 8, 2008 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Damn...
you called me on it.
I can’t remember the exact season but I believe it was around ‘93 or ‘94.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Aug 8, 2008 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
8 starters, 2 a game, 4 day rotation
Day one: Millwood, Hurley
Day two: Padilla, Harrison
Day three: Mendoza, Hunter
Day four: Bmac, Gabbard
65 pitches for each guy (Should give you about 4 innings on average)
2 longman relievers ready to come in in case a starter struggles (Wright, Nippert/Loe)
3 setup men/closer- CJ,FF, Guardado
by slimshadty12 on Aug 7, 2008 11:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
the starting starters would hate it
because they wouldn’t get the coveted win stat and i’d say it may hurt their trade value/free agency value.
they wouldn’t go for it. especially if you have veterans on the team like pads and milly.
i would say you have your top 3 pitchers be traditional starters. then for the 4 and 5 starts have benoit/loe/wright/mendoza be the split guys. if you do that at all.
http://www.buchanan4pres2008.org/
NIXON: NOW MORE THAN EVER
by gossamer on Aug 7, 2008 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
The importance of the win is a big deterrent. Piggybacking the 4th and 5th spots in the rotation is feasible, but only on a really weak pitching staff. Hopefully for the next few years, with the young guys coming up, we can strive to be a slightly better than mediocre or even average pitching staff, where our 4th and 5th guys can be legit 10-game winners.
by naropean on Aug 7, 2008 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with you guys
There would be resistance and egos would get in the way, but if their ERAs went down and the team was winning i bet they’d get over it in time. And yes, this idea is geared more toward a mediocre pitching staff….. like the Rangers’.... or a small market/ small budget team.
by jcAustin on Aug 7, 2008 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not to mention
Who cares is spare veterans like Pads and Milly would get their panties in a wad over it?
by cgolden on Aug 7, 2008 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well
Padilla is our best pitcher at the moment, and Millwood is a big-time leader on this team. With so many young pitchers coming up, these are the guys that they’ll look up to, the guys who should be positive influences. So, yeah, I think it’s important to keep these guys happy and supportive of the team’s decisions.
by naropean on Aug 7, 2008 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that takes a lot of will power
to stick with this setup. If Millwood (or whoever) pitches 3 lights out innings, you don’t want to take him out and put in Hurley (becuase hurley might have an off day). The current system – leave the starter in if he’s doing good, take him out if he’s doing bad- just seems to make more since. Sure managers have problems deciding whether to take out pitchers or not, but with this setup your committing to taking out an effective one.
by texasrangerfan on Aug 7, 2008 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If he's pitching 3 lights out innings...
then I’d assume his pitch count would be a healthy 30-50 pitches meaning he’s good for atleast another 1 or 2. Regardless, in that circumstance you can leave him in for say 80 pitches, get your 6 innings, and call it a good day. Most of the time pitchers become less effective after that point anyway. We don’t have a Webb, Sabathia innings eater on our team anyway. But if you had Millwood pitch say 6 innings, 80 pitches then next time out you limit him to around 50 pitches and the other guy can take a stab at it with a fresh arm. I don’t expect this to happen anytime soon or even be effective…just food for thought.
by slimshadty12 on Aug 9, 2008 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nolan will never go for it
:)
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Aug 7, 2008 12:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
but it sure has a lot of good logic...thanks for bringing up the idea, jc
II Cor. 4:17-18
by TedFord on Aug 7, 2008 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Partial
Two horses, who work on three days’ rest.
Two 5 inning guys.
One trifecta of 3 inning guys, rotate spots based on who they face.
Two mid-long relievers to take up slack.
Three late inning guys who can work as needed.
Two end of game (or) critical spot guys, stoppers.
14 pitchers, one over normal quota, and lobby for 26 player rosters.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Aug 7, 2008 4:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Prolly have to shoot
your horses midway through the season.
"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain
by DJCahill on Aug 7, 2008 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True, heh
Imagine Nolan would be tickled pink, no make that all rainbow shiny, if two guys actuall could put up over 300 good innings apiece.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Aug 7, 2008 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
beer for the staff and
whiskey for the horses?
by jcAustin on Aug 7, 2008 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Love your sig Ed...
is that the writer Andrew Lang that did the fairy-tale folklore books?
by jcAustin on Aug 7, 2008 4:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes it is.
The wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Lang
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Aug 7, 2008 5:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no way
quality free agents would want to com here. you could make the argument that it will stress their arms less, giving them the chance to maybe perhaps lengthen their careers by a few years, but every pitcher realizes, no matter how he is used, that his health his completely ephemeral and could easily be gone any day so he will try to make the most (and most money) of his prime years when he can.
you have to realize you will exclusively be going after guys that have offers for a relief role with other teams. No FA SP, even the lowliest of the low, is going to take $2 million/year for this experiment when there is Carlos Silva money on the table. And most relievers might disdain the idea if it means they’ll have to exceed their typical innings total by 50. So factor in overpaying for them a little too.
This says nothing of the mental aspect of knowing youll go out their every fifth day, knowing that barring horrible ineffectiveness, youll be there for 5 + innings and wont need to prove yourself through the first nine hitters just to earn a chance to pitch in the fourth inning. And while I think that mental thing can be over rated, I dont think its that way to starters. Every pitcher likes to have his role and be able to embrace it and prepare for it. I think itd be hard to convince young pitchers to accept this kind of program, especially if they plan on leaving once they hit free agency for a team with a convential rotation, where they would be ill-prepared to adapt to it.
if anything, id like to see a team tinker with the 4-man rotation. of course you have to have the right personnel, but with a good staff it could be done.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Aug 8, 2008 9:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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