More Rangers pitching talk
From a notes column from Jim Molony, who is one of the mlb.com writers:
Scouts say the problem with the Texas pitching staff stems from the fact that they are rushed to the big leagues, even though they don't have command of their breaking balls, or have below-average off-speed stuff. The result is the Rangers end up with pitchers with high walk totals, low strikeouts and high pitch counts.Opposing hitters sit on the fastball and either foul them off or put them in play against a weak defense. As a result, their starting pitchers barely have enough gas to get through six and their bullpen is worn out.
Rangers pitchers average 155 pitches per game, the highest in the American League. The only Texas pitchers with an above-average breaking ball is Eddie Guardado, their 37-year-old reliever, and reliever Joaquin Benoit.
* * *
Nolan Ryan is starting to assert himself more as club president of the Rangers. Ryan was a driving force behind the removal of pitching coach Mark Connor and bullpen coach Dom Chiti. Manager Ron Washington was resistant to the change, but it was forced upon him by Ryan and general manager Jon Daniels.
Ryan believes the Rangers have the offense to contend for a Wild Card playoff race, but felt something needed to be done to fix the pitching staff. The changes haven't gone over well in the clubhouse, where Connor was highly respected and Chiti was regarded as a wise counselor for the Rangers relievers.
If you recall, Chris Shelton was called up, and Jason Botts needed to be released, because "something needed to be done." We now have this apparent sense of urgency from up on high, with Connor and Chiti being axed because "something needed to be done to fix the pitching staff," even though this team is not a legit wild card contender.
These sorts of things make me believe there's a decent chance that Daniels is gone at the end of the season, at Ryan's behest, with the explanation being that "something needed to be done" about the fact that the pitching isn't good.
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What a bizarre jump in logic.
And you’ve based it on an article in which a guy says Guardado and Benoit are the only guys on the staff with above average breaking balls?
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on
Aug 7, 2008 1:05 PM CDT
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No
I didn’t base my concern about what is going on in the front office on that article.
by Adam J. Morris on
Aug 7, 2008 1:06 PM CDT
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You really think
with the farm system the way it is and Daniels great work in his drafts that they’ll let him go because “something had to be done about the pitching?” I know there is Nolan paranoia but I don’t think he’ll kneejerk that bad after one year.
"Mr. Hicks, you watch, I'm going to be a leader on this team." Kinsler
by sprite on
Aug 7, 2008 1:21 PM CDT
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but he has done something about the pitching...
...it’s all right there in the minors… the same minors that Ryan advocates in his radio advertisements to come out to the ballpark…
i believe he says… “and with the number of prospects in the system, we’re setting ourselves up for the future”
by oc on
Aug 7, 2008 1:34 PM CDT
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I don't know how
anybody could piss and moan about what Nolan Ryan has done this year.
.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 1:34 PM CDT
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what has he done?
do tell
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on
Aug 7, 2008 1:34 PM CDT
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He has drawled a lot on the radio...
...and sounded just like a “True Texan”. That sure has made me feel all warm inside about buying Ranger tickets.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on
Aug 7, 2008 2:10 PM CDT
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What has he done.....
to deserve the conspiracy theories that abound?
by bdavison94 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:34 PM CDT
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Can he prove his whereabouts...
...on Nov. 22, 1963?
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on
Aug 7, 2008 3:21 PM CDT
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Nolan.....
probably was barely driving…....so it’s possible that he was in Dallas.
by bdavison94 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:26 PM CDT
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Daniels
isn’t going anywhere. If anything, the recent string of success with young kids and recent acquisitions has solidified his position.
I also don’t think the firings are just a ‘win now’ decision. Like everyone else has documented, this staff has a long history of underperforming (and those that leave find success). When that happens, there is no value in giving it more time. We need to get the proper coaches and philosophy in place so we don’t scew up this next generation of prospects (Feliz, Main, etc…). I think the firing is a solid long-term decision, not a nearsighted one.
by Jack Nicholson 1974 on
Aug 7, 2008 1:11 PM CDT
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+1
and those coaches have to take some of the blame for the millions of pitching injuries
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 4:45 PM CDT
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Pitching Coaches and bad 1bs is a big leap to GM
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Aug 7, 2008 1:15 PM CDT
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now i love you nolan
Nolan Ryan is starting to assert himself more as club president of the Rangers. Ryan was a driving force behind the removal of pitching coach Mark Connor and bullpen coach Dom Chiti.
thank you nolan!!!!
btw: i dont think that you can stretch the connection to GM, neither one of those guys had anything at all to do with the current regime. no connection what so ever. so to then connect them is kinda a stretch.
"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM
by Jayslick on
Aug 7, 2008 1:16 PM CDT
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Purging Conner & Chiti
was definitely Nolan’s call. Nolan said early on his management style is to get to know the people he works with, observe them and then wait for results.
Nolan shit-canned those coaches because they weren’t getting results.
Does Nolan believe JD has done a good job? Interesting question and I did take notice that Nolan said he was “disappointed” we weren’t able to make any deadline deals to help the club.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 1:22 PM CDT
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Daniels
is going nowhere, he just got an extension.
Hicks won’t let this happen. He doesn’t want to pay off Daniels for the next 4 or whatever years.
Today is the youngest you will ever be. Act like it.
by miles on
Aug 7, 2008 1:27 PM CDT
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Why can't I reply to any comments?
when I click reply, it gives me this:
http://www.lonestarball.com/2008/8/7/588895/more-rangers-pitching-talk#
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on
Aug 7, 2008 1:30 PM CDT
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works for me
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Aug 7, 2008 1:31 PM CDT
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hope they don't
get rid of Daniels. He’s getting better all the time.
by jcAustin on
Aug 7, 2008 1:34 PM CDT
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Ditto
They’ve already gone through his learning curve period. He’s actually qualified for the job now and it would be foolish to dump him after he’s learned so much.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Aug 7, 2008 3:37 PM CDT
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why should we have to get a GM who has to go through a 3-year learning curve
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 4:47 PM CDT
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Don't you think
all new GMs go through some sort of learning curve? My point is it would be pretty foolish to dump him now when he’s on something of a roll and making good decisions because he made some terrible ones 2 or 3 years ago.
Plus, Josey’s spiel about JD not having a realistic assessment of the team’s chances in 2006 or 2007 is disingenuous. Tom Hicks had a lot of say in the team’s direction then, as he should as the owner. I think both men fooled themselves into thinking the team was a contender—and I might add that most people here thought those teams had at least an outside chance both years. I don’t know who convinced who that it was time to rebuild, though I suspect that Daniels had to push Hicks in that direction.
Daniels may not have been the right hire when he first got the job. But I think he is qualified now, and to get rid of him now would be at least as much of a mistake as hiring him then was.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Aug 7, 2008 4:54 PM CDT
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I tend to be careful
about people who use unnamed sources to lend credence to what may be one guy’s opinion. “Scouts say” or” a highly placed official suggests” tend to set off a red flag with me. Sometimes there is substance there but just as often there is not. I see no sign that Nolan is unhappy with Jon and I think the idea that Nolan wants Jon gone is a red herring.
Sure, some of the Ranger pitchers are probably being moved to the majors before they are ready but the fact is they are the best the Rangers have and choices are limited.
by Jea103 on
Aug 7, 2008 1:34 PM CDT
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three-fifths of the starting rotation on Opening Day...
...M.I.A. ...
by oc on
Aug 7, 2008 1:36 PM CDT
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However...
Outside of the Jennings signing, how can anyone blame Daniels for that? It makes no sense to blame him for Luis Mendoza’s shoulder or Kason Gabbard’s inability to stay healthy since their spots in the rotation were not his decision.
by jwiscarson on
Aug 7, 2008 1:39 PM CDT
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yes.
...there were a bunch of other sorry-ass No. 5’s out there and Daniels went with the injury-proned local boy.
by oc on
Aug 7, 2008 1:53 PM CDT
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no. the Jennings signing was terrible.
...i said it then, and i say it now.
by oc on
Aug 7, 2008 1:56 PM CDT
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Uh...
I’m saying that you can’t blame him for Mendoza’s or Gabbard’s spots in the rotation. Hence my use of the phrase “outside of the Jennings signing”.
by jwiscarson on
Aug 7, 2008 1:57 PM CDT
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What could anybody
ever expect from Gabbard other than injuries??
That’s why you don’t trade for crap like Kason Gabbard.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:34 PM CDT
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except....
when you can get guys like Murphy and in the same deal
"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno
LSB facebook group ---->>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33345329288
by hinduplaya on
Aug 7, 2008 3:20 PM CDT
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and beltre
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 4:49 PM CDT
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so if the trade was just for murphy and beltre that would have been fine?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:20 PM CDT
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even if gabbard throws another pitch for the rangers
86 innings with a 5.2 ERA is hardly the worst pitching performance weve seen in the last year, and of course the other 2 guys are still around for a long time.
the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is
by DSheppard on
Aug 7, 2008 3:33 PM CDT
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did you even notice how gabbard pitched in april when he was healthy??
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 4:49 PM CDT
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did you even notice how gabbard pitch in april when he was healthy??
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 4:49 PM CDT
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probably made that decision partially on advice from Connor
so maybe that mistake won’t be repeated
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on
Aug 7, 2008 1:55 PM CDT
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stop blaming
other people for JD’s screw-ups. Gabbard had four surgeries (in 7 years) before the Rangers traded for him. I knew that Gabbard was a major injury risk and expecting anything different was stupid.
JD was the GM at the time of the deal and gets credit for prying away David Murphy but he also gets the blame for acquiring Kason Gabbard.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 3:01 PM CDT
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so....
what is the negative impact that Gabbard has had that we can blame JD for? What have we lost?
by bdavison94 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:07 PM CDT
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That's ridiculous
Can you not be happy that we got Murphy and a stud (although still young) prospect in Beltre. If they could forsee this happening for sure with Gabbard and been forced to take him to get the other two, I am sure they would.
by CS3 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:14 PM CDT
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NO!
JD must be given 40 lashes for accepting to take on Kason Gabbard. Mistakes will not be tolerated!
by bdavison94 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:16 PM CDT
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And JD decided to give Millwood 5 years / $ 60 million,
one year $ 4.5 million to Jennings (while DFA’ing Galarraga) and insisted that the Red Sox give him the always injured Kason Gabbard.
These were all JD acquisitions made before Nolan became his boss.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 1:40 PM CDT
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the Millwood deal was/is not a bad deal
by blueballlefty on
Aug 7, 2008 1:41 PM CDT
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$ 12 million
per is the going rate for Big Southern Dummy, mediocre pitchers that are out of shape and can’t stay healthy?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 1:45 PM CDT
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wasn't exactly his reputation before he got to Texas
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on
Aug 7, 2008 1:46 PM CDT
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Kind of was
he was famous for having a good year every three years, and throwing a stinker every 3 years.
"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain
by DJCahill on
Aug 7, 2008 1:51 PM CDT
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can't stay healthy?
and his stinkers weren’t the same as what he has been doign in texas. he came here and started walking people and getting injured.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on
Aug 7, 2008 1:52 PM CDT
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I wish that trend had continued
This would have been his year to be really good, which would have been nice.
by CS3 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:53 PM CDT
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no but
it is the going rate for late 20’s pitchers that lead the league in ERA the year prior
by blueballlefty on
Aug 7, 2008 1:47 PM CDT
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Free agents
should be signed based on what they are going to do for you and not what they’ve done in the past.
If you have a small market payroll, you don’t give $ 12 million to Kevin Millwood.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 1:51 PM CDT
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but isn't what they did in the past
the only sign of what they will do in the future?
“Yeah, he was awesome last year, but my crystal ball tells me that he’s going to develop a donut fetish and have an ERA of 5.20 two years from now.”
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on
Aug 7, 2008 1:53 PM CDT
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Free agents
are priced on what they’ve done in the past, no doubt but that is when you have to be smart with your small market payroll.
The fact that Millwood had never embraced physical conditioning should have been given heavy consideration when you realize he was into his 30’s and about to sign his first big deal.
Is anybody really shocked that fat fuck can’t take the ball every 5th day?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 1:57 PM CDT
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boy.....
does this reek of hindsight or what?
by bdavison94 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:37 PM CDT
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No Doubt!!!
i was gonna say the same thing.
"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM
by Jayslick on
Aug 7, 2008 8:42 PM CDT
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You've been on these boards for years
So, certainly you can produce many quotes from yourself decrying the salient imbecility of the Millwood signing at the time, no?
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on
Aug 7, 2008 2:49 PM CDT
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I've been reading a lot of your posts lately
and I come to conclusion that you’re an idiot.
by Coolbean04 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:37 PM CDT
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Because all GMs have crystal balls
and can force players to sign contracts for their set-in-stone future performances.
by jwiscarson on
Aug 7, 2008 1:53 PM CDT
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are you seriously complaining about the Gagne trade?
(incredulous)
by texnykazrus on
Aug 7, 2008 2:05 PM CDT
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It was a good trade
but it was not a smart signing if the thoughts were that Gagne could help a good team win over 162 games.
JD played the Gagne situation pretty well because of the trade but I initially thought it was yet another waste of money for a team with a small market payroll.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:22 PM CDT
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So.....
The problem with the Gagne situation isn’t how it turned out, but how it might have turned out had we been in a different situation?
by CS3 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:27 PM CDT
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If Gagne
was brought aboard for $ 8 million to be the closer for a pennant contending team for 162 games it was a bad signing..
I would have rather seen Benoit or CJ close and spend that money on a starting pitcher.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 3:36 PM CDT
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I dont think
anyone ever considered last year’s team pennant contending though. Gagne was brought in to fix a patch and hopefully teach some of the pitchers some things and Wilson has spoken at length about how much he learned about being a reliever from Gagne. Benoit (hopefully) found his niche last year as a set up man.
by CS3 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:41 PM CDT
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and how have CJ and Benoit turned out this year?
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 4:55 PM CDT
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not as well
as when they were healthy and Gagne was here last year. Bone spurs in the pitching elbow and shoulder inflamation in the pitching arm probably have some sort of effect on pitching success. I’m not a doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night
by CS3 on
Aug 7, 2008 5:00 PM CDT
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lets hope
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 5:39 PM CDT
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Don't you think
Daniels signed him with the possibility he might be able to flip him for prospects at the deadline? Or at least get some draft picks out of him?
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Aug 7, 2008 3:39 PM CDT
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Everything I read about
this team going into 2007 was how much better everybody (owner, GM, manager, players) felt they were going to have a much better record and that the post-season was not an unrealistic expectation.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 4:54 PM CDT
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what were they going to say?
boy we suck this year?
THe fact that both Lofton and Gagne got one year deals should tell you something – JD probably signed them with the idea of trading them if Texas was out of it.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 7, 2008 4:58 PM CDT
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Yes, but
my point is that they can say that and at the same time, hedge their bets by signing Gagne to an incentive-laden contract and knowing that if the team doesn’t make it they can trade him.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Aug 7, 2008 5:20 PM CDT
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Right...
I don’t see how signing someone with the hopes that the team is good - but also using that player as a trade piece if they team is not - is a bad thing.
To suggest otherwise is just worrying about Tom Hicks’ money—which is really all Josey’s posts boil down to…
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on
Aug 7, 2008 6:33 PM CDT
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+1
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 4:51 PM CDT
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If Daniels was fired
he’d have some of his own track record to hang him. I’ll let other list the litany of pitchers who are gone who are better than what we currently have. Personally, I wouldn’‘t fire him, but, he’s dug his grave, and given others enough reasons.
I still think he is our GM next year though.
"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain
by DJCahill on
Aug 7, 2008 1:39 PM CDT
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x
If Daniels was fired he’d have some of his own track record to hang him.
I agree. It wouldn’t shock me to see Ryan fire him, with the justification being that the Rangers would be winning the wild card if Chris Young and John Danks were still here.
And again, Daniels isn’t Ryan’s guy. I would be surprised if Ryan wouldn’t like to have his own person in place as the g.m.
by Adam J. Morris on
Aug 7, 2008 1:42 PM CDT
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I don't think however
the situations are similar to Botts though. Botts was an unmitigated bucket of suck as a major leaguer, JD is more mediocre.
"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain
by DJCahill on
Aug 7, 2008 1:44 PM CDT
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Yeah
Using Botts as justification that Nolan is a quick trigger is a poor argument. Botts was a bad baseball player, the team found out, and something – indeed – needed to be done there.
Just like something needed to be done with our pitching situation.
by JBImaknee on
Aug 7, 2008 6:13 PM CDT
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Sorry AJM
No way in hell that happens. JD was young and has made some pretty good trades after a few bumps in the road…. Built up the farm system and made some awesome free agent signings. The Rangers aren’t supposed to be in the wild card race anyways so if Ryan did that it just keeps reemphasizing the fact the franchise has no direction. At least for now we all have a sense as to where the Rangers are going.
by AirJordan on
Aug 7, 2008 1:52 PM CDT
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where are the rangers going
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 4:59 PM CDT
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to Baltimore
"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM
by Jayslick on
Aug 7, 2008 8:45 PM CDT
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Who has Ryan fired?
Nobody yet. Why would he fire JD?
Tony Romo's #1 fan!
by Longhorn on
Aug 7, 2008 2:22 PM CDT
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uhhhhhh he fired chiti and connor
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 4:59 PM CDT
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So......
Ryan will fire JD because of the lack of pitching but continually mentions how the offense is good enough to be a contender. Don’t you think Ryan might give credit for the offense since JD signed or traded for the 3-5 hitters, and drafted the 8 hitter?
by bdavison94 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:41 PM CDT
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You don't fire someone unless you have a better replacement..
.. who would Ryan bring in?
I’m on the fence with JD, but his plan is in place, drafts have improved, scouting has improved and the farm is stocked. If you bring in a new guy, is going to want to start over?
by mattrpav on
Aug 7, 2008 3:06 PM CDT
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hopefully
nolan thinks about where we would be without hamilton,murphy, and guardado,
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 4:58 PM CDT
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i don't think anybody denies that
but changing GM’s now would be a very bad course of action. Does anybody doubt that a new GM would come in and get rid of our prospects?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on
Aug 7, 2008 1:43 PM CDT
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I think your logic is kinda flawed
Botts wasn’t doing his job (hitting), Broussard wasnt doing his job (hitting), Mark Connor and Chiti weren’t doing there jobs (getting the best out of there pitchers) , JD IS doing his job (building a winning franchise from top to bottom) so I think he is safe, although I can see Ron getting the ax if the team doesnt make the playoffs. It was very clear to me game after game that the pitchers were not properly prepared to pitch, this has to go back on the pitching coaches.
by blueballlefty on
Aug 7, 2008 1:41 PM CDT
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There would have to be a huge collapse this year
for Ron Washington to get the axe.
I imagine there would be lots of pressure next season to get off to a good start and another lethargic break from the gate would probably do him in.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 1:43 PM CDT
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I dont think so
its clear he is in above his head out there and although the players respect and play hard for him he makes bad baseball decision’s almost every game
by blueballlefty on
Aug 7, 2008 1:46 PM CDT
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completely incorrect
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on
Aug 7, 2008 1:47 PM CDT
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good reply, say I'm wrong but not be able to point out where
by blueballlefty on
Aug 7, 2008 1:47 PM CDT
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your analysis was somewhat lacking as well
“makes a bad baseball decision almost every game.” no, he doesn’t.
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on
Aug 7, 2008 1:52 PM CDT
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your right its not every night
but its probably 4 out 5 games, he either makes a bad pitching change decision, bad bunt or SB call, doesnt argue ( although he has been doing more of that lately which is part of the reason why I think the guys are really rallying around him)
by blueballlefty on
Aug 7, 2008 1:57 PM CDT
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so where is the example of "good/great" in game decisions he makes??
I can see where blue is comming from on the ‘bad’ decisions. but where are the smart, good ones that i couldnt have made??
by thad728 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:10 PM CDT
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I don't want to get too deep into his bad decisions but...
...I will offer this: He makes a bad decision every time Bradley is out of the lineup and he moves Josh to the 4th spot in the order. All this does is take away a guarantee that Josh will bat in the 1st inning and also give an inferior hitter (Laird, Cat, Vazquez, etc.) a slightly greater cahnce of having one more plate appearance than Josh.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on
Aug 7, 2008 2:15 PM CDT
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So what is your solution
Do you want Byrd or Murphy or Cat or Laird or Salty hitting 4th? You complain about hitting our best power hitter 4th but yet don’t offer any other solution.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 7, 2008 3:20 PM CDT
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Sure
Lets watch the 22 year old kid struggle and hit .180 and strikeout 50% of the time because we put him in one of the most pressure spots in the lineup.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 7, 2008 4:41 PM CDT
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I'm not necessarily advocating CD for the 4th spot, but...
...he was in a pretty pressure filled spot last night facing a HoF closer in the bottom of the 9th in a 2-run game. He did not appear overmatched.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on
Aug 7, 2008 4:46 PM CDT
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OK how did that help us?
Im not talking about getting on base with nobody else on. Im talking about hitting in a spot in the lineup where you will more often than not come up with runners on and in alot of cases runners in scoring position. The 4th spot in the lineup is called the cleanup spot for a reason. You generally get scoring chances and should be able to cash those in. Davis has looked really bad in alot of scoring opportunities this year. He has looked like a rookie out there. I know he has alot of home runs and has looked good for the most part but in pressure situations he has failed and looked really bad doing so most of the time. As Nolan said last night on the broadcast he is glad Davis is hitting at the bottom of the lineup to take pressure off him.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 7, 2008 4:49 PM CDT
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We obviously look at baseball through very different eyes...
...and I doubt either of us will be able to budge the other at all on this subject.
I respect your thoughts and appreciate you expressing them without hyperbole or insult. Take care.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on
Aug 7, 2008 4:56 PM CDT
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Davis
Is hitting .274/.333/.613/.946 with runners on base.
He’s also hitting .340/.380/.681/1.061 in the 7th inning on….
I think Davis is doing just fine in pressure situations…
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on
Aug 7, 2008 6:43 PM CDT
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How about your best hitters batting higher than your lesser hitters...
...so that they would have a greater chance of getting that “extra” plate appearance? Wouldn’t that make sense?
Why does the 4th position (I refuse to call it by any antiquated name) have to have your best power hitter in it?
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on
Aug 7, 2008 3:28 PM CDT
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So why doesn't Hamilton leadoff then?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 7, 2008 4:41 PM CDT
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For starters I wouldn't bat him leadoff instead of Kinsler...
...due to Kinsler’s superior OBP.
I would just like to know what logic there is to giving Cat or Laird or the like a greater chance of getting the extra plate appearance.
Physician: Primum non nocere
Batter: First, make no out
by Chad Crudup on
Aug 7, 2008 4:45 PM CDT
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lol
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 5:02 PM CDT
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You seem
pretty sour in coming to this kind of conclusion based on an article from “whom?”.
This guys premise that the Rangers bring up prospects too soon butts heads directly with this blogs bring the kids up and let them take their lumps mentality (instead of getting a middling vet). So, if you buy into his premise, then a great majority of those on this blog are backing a losing entry.
If the Rangers don’t make a little noise (like whats going on now) before 2010 , the team will be playing before their families only. Everyone on this blog knows this at their core, but won’t face the reality of the business side of baseball.
by mcgee48c on
Aug 7, 2008 1:42 PM CDT
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maybe the next
that should be fired is the team trainer.
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on
Aug 7, 2008 1:44 PM CDT
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well something did need to be done
“it was forced upon him by Ryan and general manager Jon Daniels”
doesn’t sound like a unilateral decision by Ryan to me.
by SteveP on
Aug 7, 2008 1:44 PM CDT
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I think JD gets this off season to show
how he’s going to make this team into a contender. But, when no major moves happen to get in really good guys, I think Ryan fires him. In fact, the axe could come over some trade Daniels refuses to make
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on
Aug 7, 2008 1:45 PM CDT
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Assembling young talent
is only facet of the job.
Using that young talent to build a team is something else altogether.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 1:48 PM CDT
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there are so few GM's that are good at that part of the job
and most success comes from just harvesting good players. If anything, I think JD understands that now. It’s almost never worth it to give up a few of your prospects for a veteran. Anyway, the best he can do is not do anything this offseason – and unfortunately, I don’t think Ryan agrees
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on
Aug 7, 2008 1:50 PM CDT
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Ask yourself if JD did a good job
of assessing where this team was before the 2007 season and then also deciding to hire Ron Washington as his manager?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 1:52 PM CDT
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ron washington - not bad
he seems to command a lot of respect and the team is rallying around him. I would have liked manny acta more but whatever. certainly don’t think hillman is anything special.
and no, he wasn’t necessarily good at assessing the 2007 season but he’s done a good job of assessing this season (as evidenced by his lack of moves during the trade deadline) and that’s more important
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on
Aug 7, 2008 1:55 PM CDT
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So
Would you rather have Hillman or Acta, each with a record far below Washington’s?
by brettgardner on
Aug 7, 2008 1:58 PM CDT
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Trey Hillman
will ultimately prove to be a much better manager than Ron Washington.
Much better.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 1:59 PM CDT
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Oh.
I didn’t know it was all as simple as your uninformed opinion.
by brettgardner on
Aug 7, 2008 2:00 PM CDT
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Because the ultimate sign
of a good manager is one that runs Tony Pena out there and plays Ross Gload at 1B.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:19 PM CDT
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I live in the KC market
Hillman is not a good manager. If you think Wash makes poor in game decisions, try sitting through a week of Royals games.
"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08
by badradiorules on
Aug 7, 2008 4:17 PM CDT
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No kidding.
You could also read Royals Review. My best friend is a Ro’s fan, though he lives out-of-market, so he doesn’t see most of their games (but weirdly, sees Ranger games broadcast on FSN).
by jwiscarson on
Aug 7, 2008 4:21 PM CDT
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Hillman is going to war
with a short stick in KC and he needs a full year in the bigs before it’s fair to evaluate.
I think that team wins close to 75 games this year which is an improvement over last year.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 4:22 PM CDT
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And I'm sure
You gave Washington the same level of deference last year.
by brettgardner on
Aug 7, 2008 4:26 PM CDT
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Big difference, gardner. I don't see the Royals
every day and have to evaluate them based more their record (and a few key stats) than the in-game managing. They’re 110 games into their season but have made some nice adjustments and I’d be surprised if they don’t win 75 games this year. That speaks well for Hillman.
I get to see the Ron Washington’s effect up close and personal. 110 games into last year Washington took essentially a .500 team and had them 14 games under .500. Not only did their record suck, they were a terrible defensive team that walked a lot more batters than they did under Buck and Washington was having problems delegating to his coaches and in the room (with Tex & Laird) as well.
So yeah, my judgment of Ron Washington’s ability as a manager came quicker than my judgment of Trey Hillman.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 4:39 PM CDT
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That's really faulty logic
You’re evaluating Washington by close watching, in game decisions, etc. but you’re only going by Hillman’s W-L record? I’m not saying either is good or bad, but that’s apples and oranges eval.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Aug 7, 2008 4:47 PM CDT
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tball
I also look at how KC’s defense has improved and how their pitchers are allowing fewer walks.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 4:49 PM CDT
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that's what happens
when you replace Random Scrub with Zack Greinke
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 7, 2008 5:00 PM CDT
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But that
and a lot of what has happened with either team could be attributed to the talent on the field, not the managing. My point is that if you’re going to compare them, compare their in game managing and handling of players, not apples to oranges.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Aug 7, 2008 5:21 PM CDT
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ok
I’m back from just being unbelievably astounded.
Here’s all you need to know about Trey Hillman the manager:
When asked if he would think outside of the box, Trey Hillman said he would, and said, and I quote “I might even bat ROss Gload third.”
Yes, thinking outside of the box, apparently, means to take your worst hitter, and indeed, one of the worst 1B in all of MLB and put it in the front of your lineup. I said earlier the three things that managers should be able to do are 1) Lineup construction 2) maintain the clubhouse and 3) promote the GM’s organizational philosophy.
I can’t speak for 3, because I don’t follow the ROyals either, but let’s take a look at 1 and 2.
The Royals have decent players, despite their record. Position by position, you could even make the argument that they’re more talented than the Rangers. They have rotation stability with Greinke, Hochevar, Bannister, the Great GIl MEche and whoever the 5th starter is at any given day. Their bullpen is anchored by the very reliable Joaquin Soria and their setup corp isn’t bad either.
They have good guys at the corners in Gordon and BUtler and decent pieces like DeJesus and Teahan. But despite this, why have they underperformed? Maybe it’s because Hillman keeps sending David DeJesus despite his 50% steal rate?
Maybe it’s because he plays ROss Gload, who has a – VORP this season?
Maybe it’s because he constantly jerks around his lineup to the point where Mark Teahan was batting 1st last week, and now is batting 7th. Hillman can’t stick to a lineup for the life of him and clearly have no understanding of his player’s abilities at this point. Clearly, that’s the makings of an awesome manager.
Beyond that, let’s take a look at the effort. After all, for a young team, The Royals should be all about hustle. No.
This year, the royals have been doubled up on infield pop-ups twice, they consistenly play lousily and give piss poor efforts in the field to the point where one of the softest baseball cities in America is calling them out on it.
This Trey Hillman mystique has got to stop. He’s a bad manager if there ever was one. Maybe he’ll get better, but right now, he is awful
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 7, 2008 4:52 PM CDT
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+10
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 5:09 PM CDT
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how was last year's team a .500 team?
im just curious
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 5:07 PM CDT
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The 2006 Rangers finished at 80-82
and were at .500 160 games into that season.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 5:14 PM CDT
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And
they lost GMJ and Mark Derosa and Carlos Lee and replaced them with Cat, Lofton and Sosa. That team was one of the least talented opening day lineups the Rangers have ever put out there.
"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08
by badradiorules on
Aug 7, 2008 6:31 PM CDT
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Not really
Going into the season they had a pretty good rotation, an average bullpen and some pretty nice young offensive players. Going into this season, that team was more talented than the Rangers of ‘07. They have spent some money and there were similar expectations that the Rangers had going into this season, but they have underperformed. Their young hitters have been awful. His “stick” going into the season was about the same size as Wash’s. They haven’t got it done and how much he has to do with it is very debatable, but he definately hasn’t helped matters there.
"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08
by badradiorules on
Aug 7, 2008 6:25 PM CDT
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just to play devil's advocate
neither Acta nor Hillman have the talent on their squads as Ron Washington has
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on
Aug 7, 2008 2:00 PM CDT
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True
But my point was to tease that out of Josey, because ultimately, managers don’t have that much of an impact. One or two situations in a game MAY be determinative of the outcome, but who knows, really?
I’m aware that if a manager were to fill out the lineup by putting a pitcher at every position on the field he would have a substantial impact, but, it seems to me that there’s just a very basic minimum skill set that a manager has to have, and beyond that, it’s about trust between the players, front office and the manager.
by brettgardner on
Aug 7, 2008 2:06 PM CDT
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I agree to a point
I do think most managers sit there and let their players play and make only a few play decisions per game. However, in Wash’s case, most of those decisions have been ill-timed or questionable at best. When he stopped making so many calls per game and let the guys play, they’ve been very successful. If Wash can keep his hands in his sunflower seed bag and not play small-ball with the best offense in MLB, then this team will continue to be successful…
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on
Aug 7, 2008 2:15 PM CDT
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he also has no idea when to put in a pitcher
in these last few games there have been several poor decisions made with the bullpen. putting in jamey wright with men on 1st and 2nd instead of franky. not using madrigal for 9 straight days. putting in benoit in a 2-run game in the 9th inning.
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 5:13 PM CDT
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I kind of like
Acta.
Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.
by t ball on
Aug 7, 2008 3:41 PM CDT
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Me too.
SABR-minded and I figured he would be a big incentive with Dominican FAs.
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on
Aug 7, 2008 5:53 PM CDT
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if you have played baseball
then you know that a manager has a HUGE impact on a team. all we can look at is the tangible things but on a baseball team the manager has an effect on every player and the biggest effect on a team by a manager is the intangibale things. attitude, confidence, etc.
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 5:11 PM CDT
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Most players would disagree with you
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on
Aug 7, 2008 5:52 PM CDT
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+1
At the amateur levels, a coach can have a huge impact on a program and individual players. At the big league level a manager’s responsibilities are very small..
"So you think the Celtics will beat Detroit? Hell will freeze over before that happens, mark my words." miles 5/20/08
by badradiorules on
Aug 7, 2008 6:34 PM CDT
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I don't think that's a fair comparison.
Wash and Hillman both adhere to the ideas that baseball fundamentals (bunting, hit-and-run, sending runners who don’t steal bases at a reasonable rate) are a good thing.
I recall FJM (I’d link it here, but FJM is blocked at work) linking to an article quoting Manny Acta, where he said that sabermetrics made a good bit of sense. That’s light years ahead of most other managers.
by jwiscarson on
Aug 7, 2008 2:02 PM CDT
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Hmm?
I wasn’t making a comparison, really, just naming a few of the guys that the Rangers were considering besides Washington.
by brettgardner on
Aug 7, 2008 2:08 PM CDT
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I understand
It just so happened that Manny Acta seems to have a good grasp of more advanced statistical analysis.
I don’t think Wash is terrible, and I don’t think he’s great either. Like you said before, managers don’t have much of an impact on the game.
by jwiscarson on
Aug 7, 2008 2:21 PM CDT
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what??
So where have the managers in the likes of Torre, Francona, LaRussa, Cox all had CONTINUED success???
by thad728 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:26 PM CDT
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agreed
but Mets have had quite a bit of good talent, Cubs = great talent. what about them?? Now cubs are for real, not only bc of their manager, but he has a bit to do with it i think??
by thad728 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:28 PM CDT
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while I agree
that managers don’t have much of an on-field positive impact for their teams, as Dusty Baker proves, they can have quite a negative impact by playing guys like Perez. I think in-game management is seriously overrated.
A manager basically has 3 jobs
1. Put together a good lineup card
2. Manage the clubhouse
3. Promote the philosophy of the GM
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:30 PM CDT
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agree with that entirely.
But, those 3 ‘jobs’ are quite important if you ask me. and i think the biggest there that RW lacks is putting together a good lineup card. and not sure where he and JD stand.
by thad728 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:31 PM CDT
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ill give him the clubhouse
he has these kids playing hard. but the other 2 ill question.
by thad728 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:32 PM CDT
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really?
the OBP increase since Washington has become the manager of this team is quite substantial, and I think in that, JD and Wash are on exactly the same page.
Aside from that, there might be complaints about his treatment of rookies and their place in the lineup, but generally, he hits players where they need to hit, and has done as much good (Bradley 4th) as bad.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:40 PM CDT
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how can you question his line-up making ability, when we have scored the most runs in baseball????
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 5:15 PM CDT
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beyond that
except for random dude in the 2 spot when Bradley is out, I can’t think of a single incident of major lineup fluctuation, for better or worse
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 7, 2008 5:24 PM CDT
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Actually, I would definitely rather have Acta.
At times he’s done better than I’d expect with the poor talent, and I’ve heard him talk about his thoughts on management. Definitely a guy I would feel comfortable having sitting in the dugout.
by philkid3 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:30 PM CDT
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Ask yourself
who gave JD his marching orders before May 2007. Then go evaluate his trades per those orders.
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on
Aug 7, 2008 2:01 PM CDT
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Please quit
making excuses for JD.
He was the GM of the team…he wears the responsibility for everything, good and bad.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:07 PM CDT
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Has he
Done anything good though?
by brettgardner on
Aug 7, 2008 2:07 PM CDT
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Sure,
he’s made some good moves but his infinite number of bad moves trump his positives.
The reason this immmensely offensively talented team (950+ runs?) can’t become a contender is because is because of how poorly the GM evaluated pitching before Nolan came aboard.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:13 PM CDT
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Getting Padilla
for Ricardo Rodriguez and then signing him to a nice contract the next year.
Two good moves.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:18 PM CDT
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Outlaw
where is your sig quote from?
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:22 PM CDT
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Fireball,
watch the movie….it’s when Josey and the badass Indian Chief make their peace.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:23 PM CDT
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Getting rid
of Gagne at just the right time was a nice move.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:24 PM CDT
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Manny
needs to demonstrate he can do it in The Show.
He looks like he has a chance to be a good player eventually but not yet.
Lofton is a lot like Gagne to me. I thought he’d hit the wall by the time he got here (I was off by a year( and he was largely mediocre for the first two months.
When he wanted to get moved at the trade deadline he played his ass off for us.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:29 PM CDT
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Manny?
How about Max Ramirez?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:29 PM CDT
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Now Gagne cost
the Rangers $ 8 million or so in 2008.
Wouldn’t it have been smarter to give that money to somebody like Ted Lilly, Gil Meche, or Jeff Suppan?
That way you don’t have to trade John Danks for the garbage in somebody else’s front yard.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:26 PM CDT
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Gagne
his contract was more for 5 million + incentives for games finished, I’m pretty sure he didn’t cost the Rangers that much
And Gil Meche and Jeff Suppan sucks
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:28 PM CDT
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I thought Gagne
was $ 8 million per plus easy incentives.
Lofton was $ 6 million per.
Gil Meche & Jeff Suppan would be our number two starters and if both were here there’s a great chance would still be here.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:31 PM CDT
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"there's a great chance DANKS would still be here."
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:31 PM CDT
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Jeff Suppan
would not be our #2 starter. He’s been horrid this year despite playing in the NL in a pretty neutral park. Gil Meche was great last year, horrid this year. They’re just younger versions of Millwood.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:42 PM CDT
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Suppan posts just about every
5th day and gives his team a chance to win (ERA below 5.00).
Meche started slow but is 10-9 with a 4.17 ERA. He’d easily be our #2 starter and if he signs last year, John Danks is still here.
What does that do for your rotation?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:56 PM CDT
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Unless we got
Don Cooper in a trade as well, probably not as much as you think. Meche was also coming off of a pretty bad career in seattle when he signed that contract. He worked out, but isn’t that the exact sort of move you don’t give JD credit for?
Meche was a gamble that worked out, good for Dayton Moore, but for 5 years, 55 million, it better had worked out. He had a lot of injury history, a lot of ineffectiveness and general badness before going to KC. I don’t see how without the power of hindsight, anyone could say Gil Meche would be a dependable #2.
Take defense, parks, division and league into account, and I doubt either is more than a #3 for us.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:09 PM CDT
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this board....
would have melted down had they signed Meche
by bdavison94 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:11 PM CDT
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Totally agreed
Meche’s WHIP hadn’t been below 1.3 the first six years of his career. He’s a serviceable #3 or #4 starter, really.
by jwiscarson on
Aug 7, 2008 3:14 PM CDT
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Contract
Gagne got a $6MM contact + a possible $5MM in incentives that Boston agreed to pay if he agreed to go there because he wouldn’t be closing. Given that Meche’s contract was for $11MM each year, that wouldn’t have gotten it done. I don’t know what Suppan got, but probably more than he was worth. His ERA and WHIP were 4.62 and 1.5 last year in the NL. Can you imagine what they would have been in the AL in Arlington?
by CS3 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:47 PM CDT
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Baseball Reference says
that Milwaukee paid him $6.25M in 2007. That isn’t a terrible contract, but your point about his WHIP is certainly valid—he isn’t a fantastic pitcher.
by jwiscarson on
Aug 7, 2008 3:56 PM CDT
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Carlos Lee trade
We gave up Cordera, who was sucking here anyway, for Cruz and Lee (who turned into Main and N. Ramirez from the draft picks)
by CS3 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:39 PM CDT
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So if the Rangers would
have let Cordero wouldn’t they have gotten draft picks?
Nelson Cruz is great….at AAA.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 2:57 PM CDT
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Not that year
They would have had to wait until this years draft
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 7, 2008 2:58 PM CDT
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I think
The Reds were in the bottom half of the league that year, so if they signed him after that terrible year with the Rangers, the Rangers would have gotten a sandwhich and a 2nd rounder. We made that trade to try to get better that year and Lee performed better for us than Cordero did.
by CS3 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:00 PM CDT
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Pick difference
The Reds had the 15th pick, so the Rangers would have had the 79th overall pick in the 2nd round instead of the 17th in the first. Being that neither player would be here anyway, the trade turned out great.
by CS3 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:11 PM CDT
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or JD
could have signed him to his 2007 option and then turned him around for major league ready talent instead of magic beans that are 4-5 years away from making it, IF they make it.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 3:24 PM CDT
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do you
remember how poorly he was pitching here? Why would we have picked up his option when he was pitching like that? Had we picked up his option, we wouldn’t have turned Gagne into Beltre and Murphy also. I would rather have Murphy, Beltre, N. Ramirez, and what I think is Beavan (not Main)
by CS3 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:28 PM CDT
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pretty sure you're right....
Beavan was the pick we got from the Astros.
by bdavison94 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:30 PM CDT
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Who was that player?
Which one was available for Coco? Do tell? I don’t mind your constant attacks on JD.
Im fine with you not liking the job he’s done.
I just hate the "he could have done such and such" bullshit.
by bdavison94 on
Aug 7, 2008 3:29 PM CDT
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i dont really know all of the draft rules
how do they decide how many draft picks you get for a certain free agent leaving?
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 5:23 PM CDT
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infinite number of bad moves
means it would be impossible for him to make any good moves
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on
Aug 7, 2008 2:15 PM CDT
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infinite?
I’ve told you a billion times to never exaggerate!
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on
Aug 7, 2008 2:16 PM CDT
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well played
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on
Aug 7, 2008 2:37 PM CDT
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the GM has to rely on others to help evaluate that pitching
such as the recently fired Connor and Chiti. I’m sure part of the reason they are no longer here is the poor scouting record this club has had for a while.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on
Aug 7, 2008 2:21 PM CDT
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it's called
perspective
"An effortless 98" - Scott Gardner after Neftali Feliz's first AA pitch
by RangerMad on
Aug 7, 2008 2:09 PM CDT
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"He was the GM of the team…he wears the responsibility for everything, good and bad."
Hilarious.
You ought to take your own advice. The Josey Wales playbook:
When something goes right, duh, Ryan did it, but he isn’t one to hog up on the credit, see.
When the turd hits the punchbowl, of course, it’s the Boy Blunder, popping a squat…
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on
Aug 7, 2008 2:44 PM CDT
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BT
JD was responsible for everything good & bad pre Nolan Ryan hiring Feb.1, 2008.
Nobody really knows where the responsibilities lie now but I would venture that Nolan is much more involved with pitchers than any other facet in the organization.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 3:11 PM CDT
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Fair enough
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on
Aug 7, 2008 3:14 PM CDT
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no it's not
it is completely asinine. nolan complains about lack of trades during the trade deadline yet he has responsibilities in player management?
""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley
by ab03 on
Aug 7, 2008 5:38 PM CDT
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I was commenting solely on his first sentence
I don’t dispute the bottom line aspect of that assertion. Do you?
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on
Aug 7, 2008 6:12 PM CDT
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OK
So shouldn’t he get some blame for how our pitchers are performing then?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 7, 2008 3:17 PM CDT
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Which pitchers
currently on the team or in the organization did Nolan advocate acquiring?
Did Nolan shit can any pitchers from the organization that went on to contribute to any other teams in The Show?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 3:22 PM CDT
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You said
“Nolan is much more involved with pitchers than any other facet in the organization.” Neither “trading” nor “releasing” appear in that sentence, implying that you meant all aspects of pitching.
by jwiscarson on
Aug 7, 2008 3:24 PM CDT
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That's speculation
on my part, Carson.
Nolan was on The Ticket earlier this year saying how he likes to sit down low because that helps give him a better feel for the pitchers.
I also believe that firing the pitching coaches was Nolan’s call all the way. JD looked and sounded very sheepish when discussing the firing while Nolan’s quotes were very matter of fact.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 3:28 PM CDT
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Just to clarify?
Are you attributing the success that this team has had since February to Nolan as well? You claim that Nolan is so “involved with pitchers” yet nothing has occurred dealing with pitchers since February. Basically, the Rangers have used this season to develop the young pitchers that JD has stacked up in our minor league system. I’m just confused as to what work Nolan has been “involved” in this season as far as pitching goes.
by Slaw on
Aug 7, 2008 3:28 PM CDT
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Slaw
I haven’t seen any really dumb moves made with pitchers since Nolan came aboard. Surely some mistakes have been made but I can’t think of anything blatant.
Just before Nolan came aboard, JD not only spent $ 4.5 million on Jason Jennings, he also DFA’d Galarraga. With lots of perspective that was a really dumb thing to do and it falls squarely on the shoulders of JD.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 3:30 PM CDT
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So basically
You are attributing a lack of failure to Nolan arriving. Your cause and effect logic seems to be flawed here. You have no proof that Nolan has done anything. It seems to me that you’re trying to justify your hatred of JD with logic that is impossible to either confirm or refute. No, I can’t prove you wrong but at the same time you can’t prove yourself to be right. It’s kind of a non-argument.
by Slaw on
Aug 7, 2008 3:34 PM CDT
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I believe we also call this
a small sample size.
I don’t think Nolan Ryan has much direct contact with the pitchers. Maybe he watches them pitch for fun (or maybe he even keeps mental notes to pass along to the pitching coaches), but the his job is to bridge the gap between the baseball and the business.
Frankly, I don’t think there are enough hours in the day to fulfill his contractual obligations and be anything more than, say, an occasional pitching consultant.
by jwiscarson on
Aug 7, 2008 3:37 PM CDT
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Slaw
I’m up front in saying that it’s speculation but it’s a helluva coincidence that this organization quite making brain dead decisions with their pitchers the moment Nolan came aboard.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 3:38 PM CDT
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Or maybe
Our young GM has learned from his mistakes and is moving on in the right direction? You can’t prove me wrong any more than I can prove you wrong. So therefore I am just as right as you. The point is speculation is speculation except you present your speculation as fact. You knock everything JD has done here. I admit that he has made some mistakes but he has also done a lot for the team’s future. Instead of giving him credit for Murphy, Beltre, and all the other great prospects he’s gotten us you give credit to Nolan for stopping the mistakes which is much less fact based than the good deals that you refuse to give JD credit for.
by Slaw on
Aug 7, 2008 3:43 PM CDT
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Nolan
Wasn’t that the date he was “officially” hired but had agreed to the position a month or two prior? So perhaps he had a hand in the Jennings and Galarraga decisions.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 7, 2008 4:45 PM CDT
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Pathetic, bigsteve.
The Jennings / Galarraga decisions fall squarely in the lap of JD.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 4:48 PM CDT
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Why is that pathetic?
Because it asks if Nolan made a bad decision or helped in making one?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 7, 2008 4:51 PM CDT
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It's pathetic
because you’re trying to cover up for yet another braindead pitching decision made by JD’s.
Nolan had absolutely nothing to do with the decisions to sign Jennings or DFA Galarraga.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 4:57 PM CDT
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Josey
you’ve been posting for awhile, I’d love to read your reactions to all these moves the moment they were made, rather than after the effect.
by FirebatM3 on
Aug 7, 2008 4:59 PM CDT
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Duly noted.
For the record, I’m on board with Nolan firing the pitching coaches.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 5:16 PM CDT
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I was merely asking
JD has admitted to the mistakes already. However you said flat out that Nolan is more involved with the pitchers than anything else in the organization. I know Nolan wasn’t officially hired until Feb 1 but we all knew he would be the president and he had agreed to the position before that. I was merely asking if perhaps he had any involvement in that decision.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 7, 2008 5:11 PM CDT
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Why? Prove it.
Prove to us all that JD was squarely responsible for it. Do it. I dare you.
by Slaw on
Aug 7, 2008 5:29 PM CDT
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Who was the GM
of the team when Jennings was signed / Galarraga DFA’d?
Next.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 5:35 PM CDT
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I'm done arguing
with your terrible logic.
by Slaw on
Aug 7, 2008 5:37 PM CDT
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Lame
Jennings was a low risk, medium-high reward that didn’t work out.
With our pitching situation, that’s a move a good GM tries every fucking year.
Let’s get you on the record now, Nostradamus. Ben Sheets will prolly be looking for a minimum of 5/75. Yes or no?
CC will be 7 and 140. Yes or no?
Please, give us a thoughtful prediction, since baseball GMsmanship is mere child’s play for a Baseball Jesus like yourself.
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on
Aug 7, 2008 6:22 PM CDT
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The 2007 Astros were 3-15 in Jason Jennings
starts last year. There was no team in MLB who had a worse record for a starting pitcher who made a dozen starts….and he was coming off an injury. This was not the sort of gamble a team with a small market payroll needs to take ESPECIALLY when you have to DFA a pitcher like Galarraga to sign Jennings. It was an indefensible brain-dead move by JD.
Ben Sheets 5/75, I pass.
CC 7/140, I pass.
Pitching is too difficult to predict, those prices are too high and our small market payroll does not allow us enough margin of error.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 6:44 PM CDT
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OK
You don’t want JD to moneywhip someone really good because of payroll.
You don’t want JD to take a risk on someone like Jennings because of payroll.
You don’t want any young pitchers coming back because they’re just “magic beans.”
So….what exactly is it that you want? A brand new shiny team to be a fan of? I just don’t get it…..
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on
Aug 7, 2008 6:53 PM CDT
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I'm not against taking
risks but those risks should be done wisely.
The Jennings boondoggle was a joke on so many levels and the fact that they had to DFA Galarraga makes it so much worse.
I was all over JD to go after Lilly (in particular him more than anybody else), Meche and Suppan when they were available because they are experienced major league ready talent with a history of staying healthy. Were they great pitchers? Not at all but they post every 5th day and there is great value in that.
I can’t commit to Sheets because of his injury history.
That’s also way too many years for CC.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 6:58 PM CDT
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Erroneous. Meche did not at all have a history of staying healthy
Just the opposite. And we didn’t DFA Gallaraga b/c of Jennings.
So what would moves would you make? Instead of hindsight potshots, give us your plan.
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on
Aug 7, 2008 7:03 PM CDT
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Maybe you know
more about Meche’s history than myself but baseballreference showed him as pretty healthy after 2003.
My understanding is that to put Jennings on the 40 man roster we had to DFA Gallaraga. Perhaps you can enlighten us on why Gallaraga was DFAd?
My plan…I fire Ron Washington tonight and instill somebody who fosters a culture where lax defensive play is not tolerated and who demands that his pitchers throw strikes.
Number one off-season priority is to break up my logjam at catcher and also figure out what I’m going to do long-term at 1B/DH.
Hopefully breaking up the logjam at C brings me a starting pitchers or two.
That’s not everything that needs to be done but it’s a start.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 7:48 PM CDT
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But you've used this logic before
You want people who have produced in the show…
Meche hadn’t done anything special before—in fact he was fairly comparable over the course of his career to Jennings.
But one is a good signing, and one isn’t.
Easy to say that with hindsight.
Also, please show me the post where you said when Jennings signed, that it would cost the Rangers Galarragga (and that he would be even a DECENT pitcher somewhere else).
I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles
by Dirk Diggler on
Aug 7, 2008 7:04 PM CDT
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small market payroll
Just because our payroll is not amongst the highest in the league doesn’t mean we are a small market payroll team. We tried to spend money but nobody signed here. Zito, Dice-K, Hunter. We have one of the youngest teams in the majors. In case you didn’t know it young guys don’t make much money in the big leagues.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 7, 2008 6:53 PM CDT
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wait a sec...
I don’t see getting rid of Connor and Chiti as some sort of big Nolan WC push. They had no confidence in their pitching coaches so why stick with them through the end of the season with so many young pitchers up here now? Will it help our WC chances? I think so. Is it the key to getting to the playoffs? No, that would have been not starting 9-18.
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on
Aug 7, 2008 1:47 PM CDT
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I'm not sure about the wild card push
theory.
Nolan wasn’t getting results and this would have happened if we were 15 games under .500.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 1:49 PM CDT
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that was my point
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on
Aug 7, 2008 1:49 PM CDT
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I guess I should
have read your post more thoroughly.
My bad.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on
Aug 7, 2008 1:53 PM CDT
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man... i got bitten by an ant yesterday...
...my body had some kind of allergic reaction soon afterwards, and my left ankle, where the bite is, is swollen to hell this morning…
it doesn’t hurt, but… damn… what the hell bit me?
by oc on
Aug 7, 2008 2:04 PM CDT
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well, we have plenty of fire ants around here...the bites can be murder
II Cor. 4:17-18
by TedFord on
Aug 7, 2008 2:29 PM CDT
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ant bites
take an antihistamine or two see if that helps relieve the swelling. Might be too late but if there is a next time do it very soon after it happens.
I soloed in the Mile High Club!
by horsedooty on
Aug 7, 2008 4:36 PM CDT
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No.
JD is not going anywhere. No point to think otherwise.
Tony Romo's #1 fan!
by Longhorn on
Aug 7, 2008 2:20 PM CDT
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this is OT but
Benoit looked pretty good last night. It would be huge if he was his old self again.
by jcAustin on
Aug 7, 2008 2:21 PM CDT
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he got the bases loaded and got 3 outs.......
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future
by Steal Home on
Aug 7, 2008 5:29 PM CDT
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re:
If you recall, Chris Shelton was called up, and Jason Botts needed to be released, because “something needed to be done.”
Not true.
Tony Romo's #1 fan!
by Longhorn on
Aug 7, 2008 2:24 PM CDT
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Yeah, I thought Botts was released because he wasn't hitting
Is he killing the ball in Japan? An honest question. How’s he doing?
by texnykazrus on
Aug 7, 2008 2:43 PM CDT
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[rhyner voice]Ummm...not good buddy[/rhyner voice]
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Aug 7, 2008 2:45 PM CDT
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Hitting .130
Only 49 AB, 23 SO, 1 HR. Team in general is pretty bad.
by Jea103 on
Aug 7, 2008 2:52 PM CDT
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wow
he has all of the talent in the world, he cant do anything with it
Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future



