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More Rangers pitching talk

From a notes column from Jim Molony, who is one of the mlb.com writers:

Scouts say the problem with the Texas pitching staff stems from the fact that they are rushed to the big leagues, even though they don't have command of their breaking balls, or have below-average off-speed stuff. The result is the Rangers end up with pitchers with high walk totals, low strikeouts and high pitch counts.

Opposing hitters sit on the fastball and either foul them off or put them in play against a weak defense. As a result, their starting pitchers barely have enough gas to get through six and their bullpen is worn out.

Rangers pitchers average 155 pitches per game, the highest in the American League. The only Texas pitchers with an above-average breaking ball is Eddie Guardado, their 37-year-old reliever, and reliever Joaquin Benoit.

* * *

Nolan Ryan is starting to assert himself more as club president of the Rangers. Ryan was a driving force behind the removal of pitching coach Mark Connor and bullpen coach Dom Chiti. Manager Ron Washington was resistant to the change, but it was forced upon him by Ryan and general manager Jon Daniels.

Ryan believes the Rangers have the offense to contend for a Wild Card playoff race, but felt something needed to be done to fix the pitching staff. The changes haven't gone over well in the clubhouse, where Connor was highly respected and Chiti was regarded as a wise counselor for the Rangers relievers.

If you recall, Chris Shelton was called up, and Jason Botts needed to be released, because "something needed to be done."  We now have this apparent sense of urgency from up on high, with Connor and Chiti being axed because "something needed to be done to fix the pitching staff," even though this team is not a legit wild card contender.

These sorts of things make me believe there's a decent chance that Daniels is gone at the end of the season, at Ryan's behest, with the explanation being that "something needed to be done" about the fact that the pitching isn't good.

 

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What a bizarre jump in logic.

And you’ve based it on an article in which a guy says Guardado and Benoit are the only guys on the staff with above average breaking balls?

It's filed under 'D'... for donut.

by NoNameOnCard on Aug 7, 2008 1:05 PM CDT   0 recs

No

I didn’t base my concern about what is going on in the front office on that article.

by Adam J. Morris on Aug 7, 2008 1:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You really think

with the farm system the way it is and Daniels great work in his drafts that they’ll let him go because “something had to be done about the pitching?” I know there is Nolan paranoia but I don’t think he’ll kneejerk that bad after one year.

"Mr. Hicks, you watch, I'm going to be a leader on this team." Kinsler

by sprite on Aug 7, 2008 1:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

but he has done something about the pitching...

...it’s all right there in the minors… the same minors that Ryan advocates in his radio advertisements to come out to the ballpark…

i believe he says… “and with the number of prospects in the system, we’re setting ourselves up for the future”

by oc on Aug 7, 2008 1:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't know how

anybody could piss and moan about what Nolan Ryan has done this year.

.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 7, 2008 1:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

what has he done?

do tell

""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley

by ab03 on Aug 7, 2008 1:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He has drawled a lot on the radio...

...and sounded just like a “True Texan”. That sure has made me feel all warm inside about buying Ranger tickets.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Aug 7, 2008 2:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What has he done.....

to deserve the conspiracy theories that abound?

by bdavison94 on Aug 7, 2008 2:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Can he prove his whereabouts...

...on Nov. 22, 1963?

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Aug 7, 2008 3:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Nolan.....

probably was barely driving…....so it’s possible that he was in Dallas.

by bdavison94 on Aug 7, 2008 3:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

Tony Romo's #1 fan!

by Longhorn on Aug 7, 2008 2:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Daniels

isn’t going anywhere. If anything, the recent string of success with young kids and recent acquisitions has solidified his position.
I also don’t think the firings are just a ‘win now’ decision. Like everyone else has documented, this staff has a long history of underperforming (and those that leave find success). When that happens, there is no value in giving it more time. We need to get the proper coaches and philosophy in place so we don’t scew up this next generation of prospects (Feliz, Main, etc…). I think the firing is a solid long-term decision, not a nearsighted one.

by Jack Nicholson 1974 on Aug 7, 2008 1:11 PM CDT   0 recs

+1

and those coaches have to take some of the blame for the millions of pitching injuries

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 7, 2008 4:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Pitching Coaches and bad 1bs is a big leap to GM

the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is

by DSheppard on Aug 7, 2008 1:15 PM CDT   0 recs

now i love you nolan
Nolan Ryan is starting to assert himself more as club president of the Rangers. Ryan was a driving force behind the removal of pitching coach Mark Connor and bullpen coach Dom Chiti.

thank you nolan!!!!

btw: i dont think that you can stretch the connection to GM, neither one of those guys had anything at all to do with the current regime. no connection what so ever. so to then connect them is kinda a stretch.

"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM

by Jayslick on Aug 7, 2008 1:16 PM CDT   0 recs

Purging Conner & Chiti

was definitely Nolan’s call. Nolan said early on his management style is to get to know the people he works with, observe them and then wait for results.

Nolan shit-canned those coaches because they weren’t getting results.

Does Nolan believe JD has done a good job? Interesting question and I did take notice that Nolan said he was “disappointed” we weren’t able to make any deadline deals to help the club.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 7, 2008 1:22 PM CDT   0 recs

Daniels

is going nowhere, he just got an extension.

Hicks won’t let this happen. He doesn’t want to pay off Daniels for the next 4 or whatever years.

Today is the youngest you will ever be. Act like it.

by miles on Aug 7, 2008 1:27 PM CDT   0 recs

Miles

How you handling Ohio? Does it still suck or you starting to have fun?

by AirJordan on Aug 7, 2008 1:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Why can't I reply to any comments?

when I click reply, it gives me this:

http://www.lonestarball.com/2008/8/7/588895/more-rangers-pitching-talk#

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Aug 7, 2008 1:30 PM CDT   0 recs

works for me

the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is

by DSheppard on Aug 7, 2008 1:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

hope they don't

get rid of Daniels. He’s getting better all the time.

by jcAustin on Aug 7, 2008 1:34 PM CDT   0 recs

Ditto

They’ve already gone through his learning curve period. He’s actually qualified for the job now and it would be foolish to dump him after he’s learned so much.

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 7, 2008 3:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Don't you think

all new GMs go through some sort of learning curve? My point is it would be pretty foolish to dump him now when he’s on something of a roll and making good decisions because he made some terrible ones 2 or 3 years ago.

Plus, Josey’s spiel about JD not having a realistic assessment of the team’s chances in 2006 or 2007 is disingenuous. Tom Hicks had a lot of say in the team’s direction then, as he should as the owner. I think both men fooled themselves into thinking the team was a contender—and I might add that most people here thought those teams had at least an outside chance both years. I don’t know who convinced who that it was time to rebuild, though I suspect that Daniels had to push Hicks in that direction.

Daniels may not have been the right hire when he first got the job. But I think he is qualified now, and to get rid of him now would be at least as much of a mistake as hiring him then was.

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 7, 2008 4:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I tend to be careful

about people who use unnamed sources to lend credence to what may be one guy’s opinion. “Scouts say” or” a highly placed official suggests” tend to set off a red flag with me. Sometimes there is substance there but just as often there is not. I see no sign that Nolan is unhappy with Jon and I think the idea that Nolan wants Jon gone is a red herring.
Sure, some of the Ranger pitchers are probably being moved to the majors before they are ready but the fact is they are the best the Rangers have and choices are limited.

by Jea103 on Aug 7, 2008 1:34 PM CDT   0 recs

However...

Outside of the Jennings signing, how can anyone blame Daniels for that? It makes no sense to blame him for Luis Mendoza’s shoulder or Kason Gabbard’s inability to stay healthy since their spots in the rotation were not his decision.

by jwiscarson on Aug 7, 2008 1:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yes.

...there were a bunch of other sorry-ass No. 5’s out there and Daniels went with the injury-proned local boy.

by oc on Aug 7, 2008 1:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

no. the Jennings signing was terrible.

...i said it then, and i say it now.

by oc on Aug 7, 2008 1:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Uh...

I’m saying that you can’t blame him for Mendoza’s or Gabbard’s spots in the rotation. Hence my use of the phrase “outside of the Jennings signing”.

by jwiscarson on Aug 7, 2008 1:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

oh.

then i guess we agree. YAY!

by oc on Aug 7, 2008 1:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What could anybody

ever expect from Gabbard other than injuries??

That’s why you don’t trade for crap like Kason Gabbard.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 7, 2008 2:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

except....

when you can get guys like Murphy and in the same deal

"Well, the Dallas Mavericks got beat by the New Orleans Hornets last night ending their season. Word is that someone on the team is dating Jessica Simpson." - Jay Leno

LSB facebook group ---->>> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=33345329288

by hinduplaya on Aug 7, 2008 3:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

and beltre

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 7, 2008 4:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

so if the trade was just for murphy and beltre that would have been fine?

""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley

by ab03 on Aug 7, 2008 3:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

even if gabbard throws another pitch for the rangers

86 innings with a 5.2 ERA is hardly the worst pitching performance weve seen in the last year, and of course the other 2 guys are still around for a long time.

the preceding post is not nearly as negative or insulting as you think it is

by DSheppard on Aug 7, 2008 3:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

probably made that decision partially on advice from Connor

so maybe that mistake won’t be repeated

Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com

by WhipSmart on Aug 7, 2008 1:55 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

stop blaming

other people for JD’s screw-ups. Gabbard had four surgeries (in 7 years) before the Rangers traded for him. I knew that Gabbard was a major injury risk and expecting anything different was stupid.

JD was the GM at the time of the deal and gets credit for prying away David Murphy but he also gets the blame for acquiring Kason Gabbard.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 7, 2008 3:01 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

so....

what is the negative impact that Gabbard has had that we can blame JD for? What have we lost?

by bdavison94 on Aug 7, 2008 3:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

That's ridiculous

Can you not be happy that we got Murphy and a stud (although still young) prospect in Beltre. If they could forsee this happening for sure with Gabbard and been forced to take him to get the other two, I am sure they would.

by CS3 on Aug 7, 2008 3:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

NO!

JD must be given 40 lashes for accepting to take on Kason Gabbard. Mistakes will not be tolerated!

by bdavison94 on Aug 7, 2008 3:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And JD decided to give Millwood 5 years / $ 60 million,

one year $ 4.5 million to Jennings (while DFA’ing Galarraga) and insisted that the Red Sox give him the always injured Kason Gabbard.

These were all JD acquisitions made before Nolan became his boss.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 7, 2008 1:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

$ 12 million

per is the going rate for Big Southern Dummy, mediocre pitchers that are out of shape and can’t stay healthy?

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 7, 2008 1:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

wasn't exactly his reputation before he got to Texas

""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley

by ab03 on Aug 7, 2008 1:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Kind of was

he was famous for having a good year every three years, and throwing a stinker every 3 years.

"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain

by DJCahill on Aug 7, 2008 1:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

can't stay healthy?

and his stinkers weren’t the same as what he has been doign in texas. he came here and started walking people and getting injured.

""If they'd have told me you can make the team but you've got to shine the shoes, I'd have been there shining shoes." -Bradley

by ab03 on Aug 7, 2008 1:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I wish that trend had continued

This would have been his year to be really good, which would have been nice.

by CS3 on Aug 7, 2008 3:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

no but

it is the going rate for late 20’s pitchers that lead the league in ERA the year prior

by blueballlefty on Aug 7, 2008 1:47 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Free agents

should be signed based on what they are going to do for you and not what they’ve done in the past.

If you have a small market payroll, you don’t give $ 12 million to Kevin Millwood.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 7, 2008 1:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

but isn't what they did in the past

the only sign of what they will do in the future?

“Yeah, he was awesome last year, but my crystal ball tells me that he’s going to develop a donut fetish and have an ERA of 5.20 two years from now.”

Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
ElectricOkra.com

by WhipSmart on Aug 7, 2008 1:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Free agents

are priced on what they’ve done in the past, no doubt but that is when you have to be smart with your small market payroll.

The fact that Millwood had never embraced physical conditioning should have been given heavy consideration when you realize he was into his 30’s and about to sign his first big deal.

Is anybody really shocked that fat fuck can’t take the ball every 5th day?

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 7, 2008 1:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

boy.....

does this reek of hindsight or what?

by bdavison94 on Aug 7, 2008 2:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No Doubt!!!

i was gonna say the same thing.

"I’m sure you’ve seen Kiker before but I’ll just reiterate that the kid is mean on the mound. He is only 5’10’’ but he is an intimidator. He looks like he hates hitters. He has the juice for pressure situations."
-Jason Parks on Jul 22, 2008 10:08 PM

by Jayslick on Aug 7, 2008 8:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You've been on these boards for years

So, certainly you can produce many quotes from yourself decrying the salient imbecility of the Millwood signing at the time, no?

Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.

by Brian Thomas on Aug 7, 2008 2:49 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I've been reading a lot of your posts lately

and I come to conclusion that you’re an idiot.

by Coolbean04 on Aug 7, 2008 3:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It is

the most obvious conclusion out there.

"And I stopped beating my wife just a couple of weeks ago." -John McCain

by DJCahill on Aug 7, 2008 3:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Because all GMs have crystal balls

and can force players to sign contracts for their set-in-stone future performances.

by jwiscarson on Aug 7, 2008 1:53 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

It was a good trade

but it was not a smart signing if the thoughts were that Gagne could help a good team win over 162 games.

JD played the Gagne situation pretty well because of the trade but I initially thought it was yet another waste of money for a team with a small market payroll.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 7, 2008 2:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

So.....

The problem with the Gagne situation isn’t how it turned out, but how it might have turned out had we been in a different situation?

by CS3 on Aug 7, 2008 2:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If Gagne

was brought aboard for $ 8 million to be the closer for a pennant contending team for 162 games it was a bad signing..

I would have rather seen Benoit or CJ close and spend that money on a starting pitcher.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 7, 2008 3:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I dont think

anyone ever considered last year’s team pennant contending though. Gagne was brought in to fix a patch and hopefully teach some of the pitchers some things and Wilson has spoken at length about how much he learned about being a reliever from Gagne. Benoit (hopefully) found his niche last year as a set up man.

by CS3 on Aug 7, 2008 3:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

and how have CJ and Benoit turned out this year?

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 7, 2008 4:55 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

not as well

as when they were healthy and Gagne was here last year. Bone spurs in the pitching elbow and shoulder inflamation in the pitching arm probably have some sort of effect on pitching success. I’m not a doctor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night

by CS3 on Aug 7, 2008 5:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

lets hope

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 7, 2008 5:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

so you.....

were wrong then.

by bdavison94 on Aug 7, 2008 2:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Don't you think

Daniels signed him with the possibility he might be able to flip him for prospects at the deadline? Or at least get some draft picks out of him?

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 7, 2008 3:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Everything I read about

this team going into 2007 was how much better everybody (owner, GM, manager, players) felt they were going to have a much better record and that the post-season was not an unrealistic expectation.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Aug 7, 2008 4:54 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

what were they going to say?

boy we suck this year?

THe fact that both Lofton and Gagne got one year deals should tell you something – JD probably signed them with the idea of trading them if Texas was out of it.

by FirebatM3 on Aug 7, 2008 4:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes, but

my point is that they can say that and at the same time, hedge their bets by signing Gagne to an incentive-laden contract and knowing that if the team doesn’t make it they can trade him.

Time you enjoy wasting was not wasted.

by t ball on Aug 7, 2008 5:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Right...

I don’t see how signing someone with the hopes that the team is good - but also using that player as a trade piece if they team is not - is a bad thing.

To suggest otherwise is just worrying about Tom Hicks’ money—which is really all Josey’s posts boil down to…

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Aug 7, 2008 6:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

+1

Feliz and Hurley. The 1-2 punch of the future

by Steal Home on Aug 7, 2008 4:51 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

If Daniels was fired

he’d have some of his own track record to hang him. I’ll let other list the litany of pitchers who are g