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Neil Ramirez Follow-Up

Hi everybody, before I begin, I wanted to express my appreciation to the Lonestar community as it has been among the most supportive of the work I do for Baseball-Intellect and I guess you can say readers here have been among the most "link-happy" readers.  I wanted to reward you guys for the support given to me.

I am creating two fan posts--one being a follow up on my article on Neil Ramirez and the other being a review of three draft prospects--Tim Murphy, Clark Murphy, and Corey Young.  I will also pop in periodically to answer any questions people might have.  I have to leave for now, but will be back later this afternoon.

As for Ramirez, there is an interesting comment in the fan shot posted by t ball from NoNameOnCard.  Here it is:

I don't know if it's selection bias or not...

but in the fastball and curve videos he picked to show Ramirez’s delivery, Ramirez’s motion is remarkably consistent. Typically, even the best pitchers in the game have more of a variance between their fastball and curve.

Eisenberg mentioned it briefly, but when coupled with Ramirez’s stuff, the deception this creates is otherworldly.

I looked earlier so I’m not sure if Eisenberg fixed it, but the sideview wasn’t working properly this afternoon. The high elbow is really only a concern with regard to timing. From the front-view photos, it’s hard to tell exactly when his elbow drops back down. Typically, problems only occur if a pitcher picks that elbow up and then drags his arm behind his shoulders while still picking up the ball.

Eisenberg mentions some violence in Ramirez’s delivery, but the examples he shows really don’t accent that point. In fact, the examples he chose look pretty impressive from a mechanical standpoint with the elbow position being the only obvious question mark.

Just my opinion, feel free to react or not.

It touched on several points and hopefully I can help expound on some of the points raised:

1. Thank you for pointing out the graphic of Ramirez from the side angle was not working.  It is fixed now for everybody to see.

 

2. Ramirez's motion is certainly consistent...this is where his athleticism helps him

 

3. Selection Bias - this is obviously part of the limitations on using video, but I do my best to take a pitch representative of what the pitcher usually throws...unless I try to make a point about the problems a pitcher exhibits.  The fastball is typical for him.  The curveball was among his better one's thrown.  His motion, as mentioned earlier is similar for each pitch type.

 

4. The high elbow...that's an excellent point of when the elbow drops back down because the point of maximum stress on the shoulder is the actual rotation to release, not the point in which the elbow rises above the shoulder.

 

Personally, I'm not big on predicting injuries.  I just take note of the risk factors involved.  I collected clips from most of the 30+ pitchers who had either a torn labrum or rotator cuff and there was no single mechanical attribute that showed up in each pitcher, or even a majority of the pitchers.  You had pitchers with a wide variety of mechanics and arm actions.  It's easy to take a few pictures of injury prone pitchers with similar mechanics and make it appear a high percentage of pitchers with those mechanics get injured.  But that's not really the case.

 

I'll go more into pitcher injuries in future articles.

 

5. Violence...it doesn't really show up in the behind the catcher views.  You'll notice in the side view that Ramirez's velocity isn't easy...it's sneaky, but he appears to use a lot of force with each pitch.  I reference the hat almost being knocked off his head after the release of each pitch.

 

I would recommend watching Ramirez in full-speed (see pick 44) to get a good feel for how deceptive he is and how forceful the release of each pitch is.  He has tremendous arm speed.

 

But remember, violence/aggression does not equal injury.  Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't.

 

In any case, comments like the one by NoNameOnCard do an excellent job of generating discussion and allow me to expand on what I write in each article so thanks again.

 

7 recs  |  Comment 11 comments

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great stuff

enjoy your insight, thanks

by blalock84 on Sep 16, 2008 1:49 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Always enjoy

your site and your analysis, thanks.

We would all, I’m sure love to read your thoughts on the Feliz-Holland combo, or maybe even better, the younger Latin signees in the system. Probably harder to find video of them, but guys like Font, Martin Perez, Boscan, all have high ceilings and might be interesting to look at since you’ve done mostly draft picks to this point.

Don't you know it's gonna be alright?

by t ball on Sep 16, 2008 8:04 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

thanks guys for the kind words

t ball,

Finding video on those two was very tough, but a couple weeks ago I did come across video of each of them…it was whatever all-star game each played in…I think it was the Midwest All-star game. Holland for an inning. Feliz for 1/3 of an inning. Combined with various scouting reports, I can make a pretty credible report for each…moreso for Holland than Feliz.

I’ve done mostly draft picks thus far because I promised THT with a draft review and I received a bunch of requests for various prospects, but I do think I overextended myself with those articles. I would much like to get back to breaking down prospects that were already in the minors at the start of the year.

I do plan on doing a top-15 (roughly) list for each team this year, so that’s when you should expect to see profiles on Holland and Feliz.

www.baseball-intellect.com

by NovaO on Sep 16, 2008 9:15 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

top-15s

Looking forward to that.

Don't you know it's gonna be alright?

by t ball on Sep 16, 2008 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Now that I've seen the side view...

This is a little misleading since the video in question is nearly two years old, but you can see Ramirez’s body recoil before his shoulder and arm come forward. This actually put a lot of stress on the labrum upon release.

In speaking with Jason Parks (Baseball Time in Arlington), I was told that this was among the first things the Rangers worked to fix. I hesitate to call the analysis obsolete because I’m sure Ramirez still exhibits most of the same mechanics, but it can’t be considered up-to-date in any way.

Having seen Feliz and Holland several times this season, I’m looking forward to whatever you offer on them.

It's filed under 'D'... for donut.

by NoNameOnCard on Sep 16, 2008 10:00 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Recent Video on Ramirez

NovaO – Video from a Ramirez start in August 2008 is available at http://www2.fiberpipe.net/hawks/2007/vod2.asp?spokane081108.wsx. You’ll note that the effort in Ramirez’ motion has been reduced relative to the video that you used for your original analysis. I would really like to hear your opinions on the changes that the Rangers organization have made to improve Neil’s motion.

by spurdynasty on Sep 17, 2008 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Clarification

Are you asking for my opinions or Eisenberg’s opinions?

It's filed under 'D'... for donut.

by NoNameOnCard on Sep 17, 2008 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The request was intended for Eisenberg

But your expert opinion would undoubtedly be as valuable, NNOC. If you’ve seen the video from the Hawks/Indians game, I would really l appreciate hearing your thoughts as well.

by spurdynasty on Sep 17, 2008 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks NoName

What I like to do is take these breakdowns and assess the adjustments made once I am able to gather new video. What this scouting report does is provide a good baseline for Ramirez’s mechanics and overall stuff. Ramirez was right at the borderline point for when I stop using draft videos to evaluate the current level of a player, mainly because he hadn’t throw a pitch of professional ball before this season.

And now spurdynasty just led me to a wealth of video to use, which I am very greatful for….I think I may need to start looking at individual team sites to see if they provide similar archives for taped games. Hopefully, I’ll be able to save some of these games to my desktop. I’ll see what I can get on Ramirez…it does look like adjustments were made.

www.baseball-intellect.com

by NovaO on Sep 17, 2008 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

wow, Neil Ramirez's fastball/curveball combination is the definition of nasty

"Tommy Hunter will be the best pitcher on the Rangers in 2009" Me- August 14th, 2008

by Seth. on Sep 18, 2008 4:05 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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