MJH with some -BS-
Err, that's Blackie Sherrod. Anywho, Mike does a nice job of profiling the Ranger's 08 season with stats and such, over here.
This is some of the better numbers:
The only rookies in this decade with a higher isolated power number than Chris Davis's .263 were Ryan Braun, Adam Dunn, Jason Bay and Ryan Howard. Lance Berkman posted an ISOP of .263 as a rookie back in 2000. (ISOP is slugging percentage minus batting average).
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Disagree...
He should be very careful.
I’m not sayimg he’s off limits, but don’t undervalue what CD is capable of doing for a very long time.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
i think if someone like cain is available
then JD has to make the swap. but not for a greinke or one of the florida pitchers
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Sep 19, 2008 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Nothing...
but he isn’t worth Davis.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Maybe not but
I don’t think Cain is either. IMO
A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555
Neither do I...
but he’s a year younger than Greinke and has average about 200 IP a season the last 3 years.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
On the other hand
If SF offered up Lincecum for Davis…never happen but if it did you jump all over that.
A bunch of midgets with no arms could pitch better than us. -iorange555
Can't Imagine Jon Daniels...
Unless something like a Tim Lincecum-for-Chris Davis deal gets offered, I don’t see Jon Daniels doing anything like that. I’m not even sure Daniels would do the Lincecum-for Davis deal anyways.
Chances are that lots of trade talk occurs without the fans ever knowing. I would guess that Daniels might not disclose a deal he’s considering that would involve trading Davis. I’m thinking that the consequences of missing out on an Ace Starting Pitcher by trading Davis— who may not, in the end, come close to expectations— is much easier to hide or de-emphasize than it would be to get an injury-prone or otherwise unsuccessful pitcher and watch Davis hit 500+ home runs for another team.
Republican or Democrat? You mean I have to pick just one? But what if I love violence AND hate liberty?
by YourNameHere on Sep 19, 2008 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually...
I take that back. Jon Daniels would make the Chris Davis-for-Tim Lincecum deal. But Daniels would have to hire an entirely new staff of coaches just for Lincecum to prevent the current coaches from finding all sorts of new ways to injure pitchers.
And Daniels would have to know that if Lincecum struggles in Texas, he’s going to have to find a new line of work.
Republican or Democrat? You mean I have to pick just one? But what if I love violence AND hate liberty?
by YourNameHere on Sep 19, 2008 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions
i like greinke
he’s done nicely this year and i think he’s the real deal, but i dont think he’s worth davis. i guess cain would be a close call, but i do like his age and consistency and think he could be an absolute ace to build around. he’s 12 games under .500 for his career but i think with our offense he could be .600 or better.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Sep 19, 2008 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions
You know what Grienke is?
He’s a strikeout pitcher… What a concept, you know?… Take the ball out of play more often… and suddenly your defense has a better chance of not making an ass out of themselves.
If Davis can get Greinke, why not? Because you only control him for two years?…
You know in two years, everything is supposed to be set, right?… Feliz and Holland will be in the rotation by then… Justin Smoak will be your first baseman… Michael Young will be your third baseman, because GASP!… we have to play him somewhere.
I think the only way you trade for Grienke is if you’re confident you can resign him… because Davis is a lot to lose. But even if you don’t, it’s not like you’re in a hole. You have Michael Main and Blake Beavan and Neil Ramirez and Wilfredo Boscan right there on the fringes.
The worst Grienke can do here is pitch lousy and leave. Does anyone really think he could do any worse than what Brandon McCarthy has done for us?
The best he can do is pitch just like he has, if not better, and when it comes time to resign him, he’ll want to stay… because he knows that the Rangers will be contenders.
Give ’em Hurley, Davis… Mayberry…
Just get the fucker here.
by oc on Sep 20, 2008 3:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Straight up : Nolasco for CD
Wouldja?
Florida has pitching to deal and 1B power hitter would seem to be a top priority for them.
"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve
Now that...
is a good question.
Like most here I really like Nolasco. I think he could easily be a top of the rotation starter. That said, I would still probably make the Marlins include another arm before pulling the trigger on that deal. I think CD is going to be that good.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
…1B power hitter would seem to be a top priority for them.
Huh?
Mike Jacobs has mashed 32 home runs this year.
I didn't know...
he was having that good of a year. That’s crazy.
Also Jorge F’n Cantu has hit 29 bombs and has a .818 OPS in 600 AB’s. Wow, that guy was left for dead by the Rays and Reds.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
you're right
I hadn’t noticed the season that he’s had. I was under the impression that he was still a platoon type. Still, I think they would be interested in CD, as he is much cheaper and has a much higher ceiling.
"So he tore it up in AA. Yippee. ...Max Ramirez be damned." - bigsteve
Michael Young = Todd Walker
In 1208 games, Michael Young has hit .299 / .345 / .441 with 115 homers and 69 stolen bases.
In 1288 career games, Todd Walker hit .289 / .348 / .435 with 107 homers and 66 stolen bases.
Though Walker played in 80 more games, he only had 92% of the at-bats Young has had so far.
its ok, walker made 14.7 mil in his career
o wait, were paying michael young 16!!! million next year with a FULL no trade…
were gonna pay a guy with a CAREER 102 ops+ that many MILLION dollars.
were gonna pay a guy who is a below average defensive SS (#22 in the league this year according to /-) 16 mil next year.
were gonna pay a guy that has topped 20 HR twice in his career (never more than 24 in a year) 16 mil.
were gonna pay a guy that walks less than half as often as he strikes out 16 mil next year.
were gonna pay a guy that turns 32 next year 16 million dollars.
were gonna pay a guy who leads the team ONLY in games, AB, PA, singles, GDIP and outs .
young has 32 2b. this is behind kinsler, hamilton, but ahead of bradley (32) and murphy (28), byrd (25) – hell laird/catt has 23 and davis has 21
obp around him: boggs (95), catt (93), blalock (92), salty (91 – yet he has had a lost season…hmmm), laird (95)
…but thats ok hes the FOTF.
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
Where were you when the contract was originally signed?
It’s ridiculously easy and more than a little boring to point all this out now.
Some definitely railed against this contract when it was signed.
Most didn’t.
And pretty much everyone wanted to extend him.
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on Sep 19, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't mind extending.
Of course I was thinking 3/30 should have covered it :)
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
i think the length
of the extension is the most frustrating part. at least its not ichiro but still, this kind of deal can really handcuff a team. i wont say that it prohibits us from being competitive but it will reduce our margin of error when it comes to signings and probably force us to really rely on organizational talent, which isnt necessarily a bad thing could make it hard for us to get over the top of the hill.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Sep 19, 2008 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
ichiro >>> mike young to me.
better hitter
MUCH better defensive player
much faster
contracts:
ichiro:
08:$17M, 09:$17M, 10:$17M, 11:$17M, 12:$17M (limited no trade)
mike young:
09-13: $16M annually (total of $15M deferred)
yes, ichiro is older.
yes, ichiro is a better player.
hell, at least ichiro will be bringing in money to the org (HUGE fan fav according to my gf who is from seattle)
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
by knockoutking on Sep 19, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
IT was both the length
and the amount that killed me.
He got paid superstar money, and he has had one year in his career that might have justified it. It was such an Erstadesque contract.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
Now don't go gettin the big head or anything, Dan
But you’ve been right a hell of alot more than you’ve been wrong.
That is, as long as we aren’t talking about animal cruelty. Heh.
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on Sep 19, 2008 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions
The guy who thinks everyone sucks all the time
sure does look like a genius when the team isn’t very good.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
by thedirkatron on Sep 19, 2008 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions
i know i know i know lol
"I don’t know of a single thing Obama’s done except talk and write." - Newt Gingrich
by knockoutking on Sep 19, 2008 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Davis...
is going to put up some monster #‘s in the next few years. He needs to work on his K rate obviously, but the guy can bash. He has 77 K’s in 72 games or 77 K’s in 266 AB’s (ouch), but that’s as a 22 year old rookie. I’ll take a .869 OPS from a 22 year old rookie anyday.
It’s going to be very fun to watch him play for a long time, hopefully as a Ranger.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
NoNameOnCard vs. MJH on Scap Loading
I know you thought I was crazy when I said we encourage scap loading to young pitchers. But like Mike nicely showed in the pictures, there is a wrong way and right way. Now in no way shape or form do we over emphasize this and in fact I’ll never flat out teach it, it just happens if the pitcher is properly using his body. When your hands break quickly, your elbows naturally pin back a little (scap load). Proper elbow action is the teaching cue, not scap loading. But it is happening in probably any pitcher that throws hard.
I've come to prefer
scap loading jokes over any actual analysis involving the action.
by Brett Perryman on Sep 19, 2008 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions
From a comment you made on May 29, 2008.
While profusely tooting your own horn in this thread:
I’d start off by saying we are by far the most advanced of any baseball training facility. So with that said, we teach scap loading and encourage it.
Can you tell me anything about how the shoulder is structurally put together? Any actual reason to teach or encourage scapular loading? Do you have any science, at all, to go with your opinion?
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Sep 19, 2008 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I wasn't tooting my horn, I was tooting the horn of the franchise I work for...
That has 20 years in research and working with actual professionals. Now, for me seeing who they know and where this knowledge comes from, I rather believe this then some random guy on the internet who goes by whatever is the latest news. I think it says a lot that Manny, Arod , Mariano Rivera, etc. are actual students of our programs. This is a clip from ESPN2 (not that it has anything to do with pitching just saying we are leading developmental facility for all ages) http://www.frozenropes.com/video-clips/ESPN2MLBStevePhillipsFrozenRopesMentionApril2007.wmv
As for MJH, I didn’t mean to imply he was an expert or anything, but I thought Mike was correct in his comparison of the difference in scap loading. Scap loading adds power and that has been proven and used in our curriculum. Do I have the actual science in front of me right now? No…but I will find out for you and for my own personal knowledge.
Listen I’m not trying to start anything with you, just telling you there’s more to the scap loading then future injuries. When I find the correct explanation I will let you know. :)
by slimshadty12 on Sep 20, 2008 8:13 PM CDT up reply actions
There's nothing I'd love more than an actual explanation.
You know, it’s funny that you say you don’t want to start something even though you plainly called me out on this.
Based only on what you’ve said (since I have no idea how you or your coworkers actually handle this), this is the impression you’ve given me. A couple things stand out:
(1) You’ve been teaching/encouraging scap loading without knowing how or why it contributes to pitch velocity.
(2) You know there’s a wrong way to scap load, but you believe there’s a right way to do it.
(3) You used “we” instead of “they” while you were horn-tooting, ergo you were tooting your own horn as much as theirs.
(4 – biggest point) I’ve only always argued that scap loading is misunderstood. No one misunderstands things quite the way or quite as often as children do. By teaching/encouraging them to INTENTIONALLY do something that could be extremely harmful if misunderstood (or if done slightly incorrectly) is irresponsible. Add on to this that there are instructors, such as yourself, who teach it without really knowing why they teach it, and you have a recipe for a whole mess of pitching injuries.
Hiring a pitching coach who doesn’t know how the human arm is put together and/or doesn’t know much of anything about biomechanics is kind of like asking a nurse to perform surgery.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Sep 20, 2008 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Haha..
I just remember that there’s someone on here who’s very proud of teaching kids that they should be scap loading. I threw up a little when I read it.
Who called out who?
1. Please explain to me how it doesn’t contribute to pitch velocity.
2. Please explain to me why all scap loading is dangerous.
3. I don’t really give a shit how you interpret it…I’m a part of the organization…I blatantly drink the cool-aid because they are simply smarter and have much more experience with logical reasoning. Therefore it’s “we” not “they” are smarter as a whole then “you”.
4. Once again I don’t directly teach scap loading…I teach “fast elbows” with thumbs coming straight down out of the glove which you could say often leads to scap loading if done properly. That’s straight out of our bible. If you want to challange that then shit there’s a lot of work for you to do all around MLB because there’s plenty of scouts, managers, gm’s ready to disagree with you since we work with a lot of them.
by slimshadty12 on Sep 21, 2008 3:14 AM CDT up reply actions
Lots of people do lots of things wrong.
Even professionals. You wanna talk about PEDs and tobacco use? Lots of professionals use that stuff, too. Let’s get the kids on it, too!
I did not call you out. I couldn’t even remember who you were. I called out the principles you teach without having a clue who you were. You specifically called me out by name.
Let’s go through the list again.
(1) I’ve never argued that it doesn’t. I think it’s funny that you’ve assumed I think that. The problem at hand is that I’m asking someone to prove that it DOES contribute to velocity. I’m still waiting for you to explain how it DOES contribute to velocity. Additionally, the term “scap load” is a misnomer anyway. The scapula is a bone; biomechanically, it CAN’T be loaded.. Muscles get loaded. Please, please, please, tell me which muscle is being loaded when you pinch back your shoulder blades. That would at least get things started.
(2) Scap loading, as a teaching element (one you claim not to use), promotes instability in the shoulder girdle. This can cause all kinds of problems ranging from rotator cuff tears, to SLAP lesions, and a buffet of tendinitis. “Loading” implies that something starts out as unloaded, then loads, then unloads. Physically and biomechanically speaking, that’s a lot of extra movement. Also, intentional or semi-intentional scap loading more often than not creates a significant arm drag (see the Tim Murphy discussion here). Arm drag, even when it’s not as severe as Murphy’s, puts unnecessary stress on the labrum and elbow as the arm violently catches up to the body. For a healthy release and a more efficient transfer of energy, the shoulder girdle must be stable. Again, as above, I’m still waiting for you to explain why it’s so safe.
(3) Ok, so now you agree that you were tooting your own horn. No more need to argue over it.
(4) I accept your position that you don’t directly teach scap loading, but my other points are still very valid. You still look for it and encourage other mechanical elements that lead to it. You still seem to have zero clue how or why it contributes to velocity. The fact that you argue so hard for it without knowing a single thing about it is just plain baffling to me.
You’ve proven nothing. You haven’t even tripped me up. If you don’t contribute something useful with your next post on this matter, I’m done responding to you. I recommend, though, that you pick up a book on anatomy and learn a little bit about physics and biomechanics, as well.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Sep 21, 2008 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok then...
Why do I technically need to know why scap loading produces extra velocity other then the fact that I know you are loading muscles to unload them creating power? My job is not to be an expert in physics and biomechanics but to teach what we have been told is the correct way. Would it benefit me to be well versed in those fields? Yes, but it doesn’t change what I’m teaching, just helps explain it better.
Does an IT worker need to know all about the electrical components in the computer to properly do his job? No, but I guess it could help.
Once again, I’m going to try to find the answer to your question but it doesn’t change the fact that the leading baseball facility in biomechanics and technology encourages scap loading within the limits of its pitching model. When you concede the fact that some other knowledgeable people disagree with your assessment of scap loading (and could be right) then maybe we’ll be getting somewhere.
And on a side note: If scap loading can cause instability of the shoulder, why do you assume that (depending on how you do use your body) it can’t be more stabilized while still creating power? I’d take an educated guess the Brandon McCarthy picture would qualify as less stable while the Holland picture would show more stability. But feel free to beat me up because I don’t know every muscle in the shoulder.
by slimshadty12 on Sep 21, 2008 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions
As a pitching coach...
There’s nothing technical about it. You are charged with teaching your students how to use their bodies not only to produce efficient and powerful mechanics but also to reduce their risk of pitching-related injury to the best of your ability. The less you know about how their bodies work while throwing a pitch, the less you can reduce their risk of injury.
In IT, there are several layers of abstraction. An IT worker only needs to know the levels above and below the level at which he works. Knowing any layers above or below those two will not help him. When it comes to pitching mechanics, there is no abstraction. A more appropriate analogy would be a wine critic who doesn’t know how wine is made or an architect that doesn’t know about fulcrums or load balancing.
You don’t even know what my assessment of scap-loading is. How can you profess to know who or what disagrees with me? I’ve objected to two things relevant to scap loading: (1) teaching it without knowing how/why/etc. and (2) teaching it to kids. Truly knowledgeable people, by definition, won’t have a problem with item (1), but item (2) is much more up in the air. Obviously, my personal belief is that it shouldn’t be taught to kids because, well, kids screw up. No matter how good a teacher is, kids are extremely likely to misunderstand, misinterpret, and misapply things they’ve learned.
I don’t quite understand the question in your last paragraph, but here goes… Holland’s shoulder is unquestionably more stable than McCarthy’s shoulder, but that’s because he doesn’t “load” anywhere near as much. In fact, based on those photos, you can’t conclusively determine that Holland or Nolan Ryan was scap loader.
I’ll keep my eyes open for those explanations.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Sep 22, 2008 1:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Those 2 are most definitely scap loaders...
Just look at the position of their elbows and do it yourself and tell me you don’t feel your muscles “loading.” It’s the same thing for hitting, just a different direction.
BTW, the little knowledge I do know on injury prevention has to do with why I hurt my arm and the rehab involved. First off, the reason I hurt my arm was because I didn’t use my glove side to help power my throwing arm and therefore it dragged with my elbow way too low. We teach a J not an L when we relate it to kids. Elbow above shoulder, hand outside elbow on release. So this alone I can relate to and can help kids from doing what I did when I was young because no one taught me any better.
Secondly in the rehab process I was taught to stabilize my shoulder in the strengthening exercises by lowering my shoulder blades down and in. I relate this very very much so to the difference in those pictures. There is no doubt in my mind that both Ryan and Holland are scap loading because of the position of their elbows in relation to their shoulders. They are most definitely “pinched” back.
Finally I’d like to say, if I was out there on my own saying hey “I’m an ex-minor leaguer I know what I’m talking about” like half the places out there say, then hell yeah you better know some biomechanics. But once again I’m not out there alone. I have the biomechanics and the physics done for me. My job is to teach it properly. In no way shape or form would you see elbows like McCarthy’s come out of our teaching. It’s just not in our step by step progression of the throwing model.
by slimshadty12 on Sep 22, 2008 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
The most important thing to note
about the scap loading debate is do we have pictures of Nolan Ryan Scap Loading. If so, all pitchers should start doing it immediately when pitching their 300 innings in the minors.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
I'll second that
Papa Bear Nolan will have us on a 3 man rotation.
When your pitchers are hurling high texas heat to the tune of 380 innings a year, who needs 4th and 5th starters?
I’ll tell ya who. Not our Texas Rangers, that’s who, by gum.
Last week I took a pleasure trip. I drove my wife to the airport.
by Brian Thomas on Sep 22, 2008 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Hitting is different.
When a hitter loads his scapula, he’s actually loading his anterior deltoid and chest muscles. A pitcher with good mechanics does not get much use from either of those muscle sets to deliver a pitch.
Simply pinching back your shoulder blades is most definitely not scap loading. Again, the process of loading implies an initial and end state of being unloaded. If the shoulder is stable, there is no unloaded state until well after the follow-through.
Ideally, a pitcher’s shoulder is stabilized before his hand and elbow ever start moving. When that happens, no scap loading can take place because a shoulder in a stable state does not move. When it doesn’t move, there is no loading and no unloading.
The biomechanic to watch for is the position of the biceps in relation to the humerus. When this occurs with the shoulder is in a stable position, the elbow can still pass behind the acromial line. This, however, IS NOT A SCAP LOAD. This action actually loads the ROTATOR CUFF.
When the biceps is in front of the humerus (or practically below it, like McCarthy’s is), regardless of whether the shoulder is stable or unstable, and the elbow passes behind the acromial line, this IS A SCAP LOAD. It is exactly like when a hitter loads his scapula because both loads promote activity in the anterior deltoid and chest, like a push up.
Perhaps we’ve been arguing semantics, but the distinction is important. Physically, the two are different. Biomechanically, the two are different. Lumping the two motions together is foolish in this regard.
One motion promotes stability; the other motion promotes rather violent instability. The term used to describe one should most definitely not be the term that describes the other.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Sep 22, 2008 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok then...
What would you consider an efficient yet still powerful way of using your back muscles without increasing injury potential?
BTW the official answer I got for scap loading was, "Scap loading done out of sequence, too early in the braking of the hands or after stride landing may have an effect on shoulder capsules.
Conditioning of the scaps through Diamond Strength ( med balls, push-ups and weighted balls) will reduce the stress loads when throwing."
IMO that would explain McCarthy since straight out of the glove he’s loading up.
by slimshadty12 on Sep 22, 2008 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Well to be fair...
I’d have to see the video…maybe he’s late with his foot down. Have any video?
by slimshadty12 on Sep 22, 2008 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions
He still at least 2 major problems with his delivery.
His legs are still not doing what they used to do, and his follow through (as a result of his release point) is fairly different, though it may be a derivative of the change in his legs.
I’m say this based on memory and the photos I’ve seen. I have no video.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Sep 23, 2008 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions
That's a weird question.
“When pitchers accelerate pitches with maximum throwing arm velocities, their cerebellums keep those throwing arm velocities below their throwing arm deceleration capacities.” -Dr. Mike Marshall
I quoted Mike Marshall because he said it best. He is stating a medical fact, not an opinion. Feel free to challenge it if you disagree, though.
The upper back muscles contribute to pitch velocity by stabilizing the throwing shoulder for a better transfer of energy from the core and by leveraging the glove-side arm during core rotation.
The other primary benefit of back muscles is seen in deceleration power. Outer shoulder muscles (posterior deltoid, trapezius, and upper latissimus dorsi), the rotator cuff, and the biceps are the major muscles used to slow the arm down after releasing the ball. By making these muscles stronger, better acceleration is possible.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Sep 23, 2008 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions
I also want to point out...
Mike offers no explanation at all. He merely shows pictures. Furthermore, Mike is far from an expert on the subject. Yes, he’s well read and he does solid research, but his opinion on this matter should not be taken as fact or as an implicit approval of the style of teaching especially since he defers to Chris O’Leary without contributing anything significant.
It's filed under 'D'... for donut.
by NoNameOnCard on Sep 19, 2008 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions
right
in that portion of the report, I merely referred to the theory and showed examples; I am not an expert on the subject and am neither an advocate of scap loading or a detractor; I simply don’t know enough about the topic to have a position one way or another;
nonetheless, it is a theory, and under that theory, Brandon McCarthy is an example of bad scap load

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