somethink like this is really the way to go. I think eventually, we are also going to have to talk about Hamilton in a corner, and perhaps Kinsler as a CoF, but for right now, fixing SS-3B would yield huge improvements defensively.

If we can’t get Hardy for a catcher, I’d pick up the cheaper of izturis or everett on a one year deal.

I think Kinsler has one more year to prove he isn’t just Alfonso Soriano at 2B.

However this defense needs to be fixed. It really is that bad that sacrificing a bat to fix it probably yields you positive returns in the RS/RA ratios.

My only thing is that I think trading for a player based on defense is pretty tricky and has a good chance of biting this team in the ass if they make that deal. That’s a lot of talent to give up for one SS.

Some quick points

1> Seems like a high price for what basically amounts to a stop-gap at SS. If you think Andrus is your long term answer at SS, then why trade a catcher+Hurley+mid-prospect pitcher for him? If the Brewers really want to move him, maybe you could get him cheaper.

1b> If you think that Hardy could be a long term solution (give us everything that Andrus will, minus the speed), and you are willing to trade Andrus for someone who can throw the ball, then I can see the logic better.

2> I agree that the fielding is one of the principal causes for this team’s problems, which really has to bias their catching decisions towards Laird and Tea. As promising as MaxRam and Salty are, this is a team that cannot afford any more sub-par fielding innings.

3> Ramon Vazquez isn’t a useful player on this team – a utility guy is only as good as his ability to handle positions he fills in for.

Given Hardy’s relative youth and apparent prowess on defense and at least adequate bat, why not just keep him around for a few years? In 2010 or 2011 you can make a decision about Hardy vs. Andrus.

That price tag would spook a lot of fans, but I don’t think it’s too much. I’d much rather deal Gomez than Poveda, and I might start negotiations by offering someone less than Hurley. Hurley is cheap and under team control for longer than Hardy, and so are the catchers, excepting Laird.

Everyt point made is valid, and Hardy is a brilliant solution if he can be had. I never had thought about that.

really?

i’d rather give up someone else personally

…really like the proposition, and think thats probably the best arguement i’ve seen for such a move… a) there would be a landslide of “the rangers trade more young pitching away” comments from anyone that can get a soap box to stand on and b) i think its toomuch to give up for hardy… and while think think we tend to over value our own trade chips(just like everyone else) i think a quality, or better, young catcher, a young middle of the rotation pitcher, and a b level prospect are a lot to give up… especially if we are only getting 2 prospects when hardy walks… i think laird/hurley might do it… if they bring up anyone with relatively high upside as a thrown in though, i’m laughing.. both of those guys are under control for a while… plus hurley’s value isn’t really high right now, due to his shoulder issues, and i can’t see him returning as much value as he should..

but i really like jj hardy … where do you hit him in that lineup??

the Brewers choice of a catcher, Eric Hurley, and someone like Kennil Gomez or Omar Poveda be enough for Hardy

Is way too much to give up in my opinion.

kind of surprised how widely accepted this idea has been so far. Andrus is your SS of the future. You don’t trade Hurley and a Catcher if not more to get a stop gap SS. Do you think the Rangers are gonna get a CC or Sheets or trade for a SP/RP and drastically improve the pitching/bullpen? Because this is gonna further hype the “Rangers always trade away young pitching” rhetoric. Especially if Hurley does good. I highly doubt Hardy’s defense is gonna make that much of a difference. I see no point in this trade what so ever. The only thing I can think of is keeping Hardy here long term and trading Andrus to help get pitching in here.. Then it would start making a little bit of sense.

What’s the point in giving up young players for a stop-gap player — even a very good one? This team is still several years away. Good piece though.

Can someone explain the +/- system? I looked at THT’s player pages, comparing Michael Young and J.J. Hardy (on RZR), but I don’t see a mention of this.

Confusingly, THT has MY’s RZR at .851 and Hardy’s RZR at .831. MY has turned 12 more DPs than Hardy, and has fielded way more balls in the zone…so I wonder how much that’s effected the RZR calculation.

And your proposal has some legs, especially if it’s Salty (the least useful Ranger catcher, IMO), Hurley (the least of the Rangers’ elite pitching prospects, IMO) and a palatable throw-in.

My fear, though, is that the Brewers would ask for more. My question is: would you do Salty and Holland for Hardy?

I like the idea VERY much. Here is how it would actually HELP our pitching too.

We let Bradley go and save $10 million, we let Hank go and save $6 million and we include either Padilla or Millwood in the deal to save another $11-12 million. Now we have about $28 million to work with. Can’t you get the 2 starters and 2 bullpen arms Wash says we need for that money? Or do we offer $23 million/year to CC Sabathia and see if he takes it. If he likes Milwaukee, he will like Texas with no income tax and better offense. He wants to be happy and comfortable.

Even if Sabathia takes the $23 million/year offer, I would immediately give Derek Lowe $10-12 million a year for two years with a 3rd year option. If they both take the offers, we have added two quality starters for just an extra $7 million in payroll! (7 + the 28 savings from the previous moves. If Sabathia doesn’t sign, you then have some options for trading for the 2nd starter to add to Lowe.

Hardy is acquired to be the starting shortstop for 2009 and perhaps 2010. Great defense and 30hr, 100 rbi (in RBiA) is exactly what we need at SS. You bat Hardy in the 5 hole between Hamilton and Davis. But by signing Sabathia and Lowe, you can afford to give Andrus 2009 in Oklahoma City and then see where you want to go in 2010… meaning signing Hardy long-term or trading him, or moving Andrus up or trading him.

Then you have a rotation of Sabathia, Lowe, Harrison, McCarthy and Feldman to start in 2009 and you don’t HAVE to make ANY more pitching moves. You can trust the kids and break them in slowly by letting them pitch at AAA or in the ML bullpen.

Then you have Davis, Kinsler, Hardy and Young in the infield… Murphy/Byrd, Hamilton and Cruz in the outfield… and Teagarden and Ramirez catching.

By trading for Hardy and signing Sabathia and Lowe, you have the chance to solidify the infield defense while helping the pitching get to the top half of the league. We don’t need to have the best pitching to win, just consistent average pitching.

That was a great idea I hadn’t thought of in acquiring Hardy. What creativity.

Sabathia hasn’t said he won’t pitch here. We know he can pitch in the American League and is worth the premium money. Just by signing CC, you would probably get the 400,000 tickets back and then some.

I am of the opinion the front office doesn’t want the other teams to know what they are thinking. I also believe CC would consider Texas because pitching is what they need, the future is bright and hopefully he would see that.

The long-term is 2010 in my opinion. Nothing in my ides hurts the 2010 goal AT ALL… it strengthens the pitching and gives the team more options to consider when building a roster for 2010.

I don’t really have a problem with including Hurley. I know people would freak about it, but for the next couple of years, the rotation is going to be somewhat crowded with Padilla, Millwood, Harrison, Hunter, Feldman…not to mention Feliz/Holland not that far off. I think Hurley is expendable.

Can you imagine Galloway’s reaction? Man, that would be a classic column.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/26888002/

 BA HR RBI OBP SLG
.288 24 73 .348 .486

I think it would take a lot to get him here, they would likely want TT or Salty or Max plus some pitching, and none of the rangers rag pitching, but some of the better guys, i would love to have Hardy on the team, but it would cost.

When I watch MY field a ball, it seems like the first thing he does is get out of the way of the ball and fields it to his side…….as if he is scared of it taking a bad hop.

If he goes to 3B, then he will have less time to react and will be still in the process of dodging the ball instead of fielding it.

This will make him want to move back a little to get more time to see it, thus making him have to make a harder throw over to first, potentially causing throwing errors. With him back, we might see some surprise bunts come his way as well…..

…but what the hell do I know??

I guess it makes more sense to wait ’til the end of the season… count the errors, tally up the unearned runs, and say that the defense is the REAL reason this team is in the September shitter.

Great pitching and great defense go hand-in-hand, right?

but hurley and those others you mentioned are worth more than hardy

and even if those players even, you still cant trade away a young and talented ml-ready pitcher on the worst pitching team in baseball

I’m calling up Josey and asking for tips on how to jump on the “Fire JD” bandwagon.

My new sig would be something along the lines of “F**** the Boy Blunder”.

I like Hardy quite a bit, but this is not the time to start dealing our pitching depth to patch holes in our lineup. I agree we should make patching up our incredibly shitty defense a priority, and I also agree that moving Face to to 3b and Hambone to COF should be a priority for this club. But why not sign cheap one year guys for SS and CF and wait for Andrus and Borbon to be ready? Even if you take a big hit at the plate with guys like Cesar Izturis, Adam Everett, Willy Tavares, etc., you gain a ton in defense.

trading Hurley + a catcher and a lower level pitcher for Hardy, that is. if you can squeeze Gallardo or Parra out in a conversation with them, fine, include Hurley and a lower level but still exciting pitcher. otherwise, I’m not giving up a pitcher to get a SS when we have FOTF and the future in AA about ready to come up. if you’re building a future championship team, and your biggest weaknesses are pitching and defense, and you have a guy that’s a year or two away that will provide solid if not inspiring defense and at least adequate offense, and you’ve got a home grown talent like Hurley, who may or may not end up being a good middle of the rotation starter, WHY the hell would you want a stop-gap shortstop? I’m all for acquiring a stop-gap if we need one. but why move Young if it’s not Andrus moving him out of SS, and why trade MORE pitching for a hitter, even if it is for defense that will SUPPOSEDLY improve the pitching? if we’re trading 2 catchers this summer, fine – go after Hardy with a catcher and something else…but if we only trade 1 catcher this summer, use it to get pitching. nothing else.

Great read, and shows how much more interesting the team (read: pitching) becomes when there’s IF defense.

A tanglible plan.

I still think Elvis can do roughly the job Hardy would even next year, defensively if nothing else. It’s a lot to give up to allow Andrus a more comfortable transition to the bigs.

when do we get to eat the babies?

After simply agreeing with Adam’s proposition as posted, had another thought.

Remember when I griped and whined about LF being the run producing hole in the defense? That LF was a ‘speed field’ and required coverage? That seems to be far less a problem now. And the INF defense needs to both be improved personnel wise and possibly positioned better (which is really hard to figure out until the pitching staff becomes consistent in how they approach given hitters).

Then the ‘impression’ jolt. Quite a few runs have been given up during 2007 and 2008 when pitchers make errors. Mostly throwing errors, sometimes glove incompetence. And a few have come from bad throws from catchers. Factually, catchers will make a few bad throws, in situational play. So my new gripe is pitchers who don’t field their position and throw the ball away. Instead of an out, you get a runner on 2nd, or even on third depending on the play.

Anybody have a think tank view of what to do about poor fielding by pitchers?

Surprised I’m the first.

But it just seems like its going to play itself out naturally with blalocks contract running out and andrus probably being ready at the same time, 2010.

I do think the defense would probably be an overall benefit compared to the offensive loss, but enough to trade another young pitcher when theres a natural solution a year away? Not sure.

And my take is, considering we have Andrus in the system I don’t think Hardy would be worth giving up a young starter like Eric Hurley for – unless of course you’re planning to trade Andrus for a better young pitcher of course (like Evan Grant is) and that’s not really something I advocate. I like JJ Hardy a lot, but at this point I’d rather just wait for Andrus to arrive – after all, he should be arriving at about the same time as Feliz and Holland and since I don’t think we’re going to truly contend until those two arrive, I’d just as soon wait, finding a filler player to play shortstop until then,

Seems to me that this may have to do with management style. Are pitchers being left in too long? Is the right guy coming in? Is the infield in too often?

Pickoffs and runners thrown out may also be factors. These are not strengths of this team.

I don’t know why people think MY won’t move. He’s seen the backlash given to previous “selfish” players on this team. He fancies himself a clubhouse leader. He also has said he wants to WIN NOW.

If he’s really that much of a leader, and really wants to win that bad, then he’ll move. He might not like it, but he’ll like it if it helps the team win.

If he doesn’t want to move, then you Frank Robinson his ass. It’s pretty simple.

the bad defense effects the bad pitching here, and yes something needs to be done about it.

However I don’t deal one of our catchers plus Hurley plus another pitching prospect for a position player. I want pitching in return for that kind of package, and I think JD will as well. I would rather use that kind of package for a pitcher, move MY to 3rd and sign a defensive stop gap ‘til Andrus is ready. The Rangers don’t need Hardy’s offense, they need his defense. i don’t give away the kind or players it would take to get him when you can get a nice defensive SS on the market without hurting the farm system.