Charting the organization - Second Base

by zywica on Sep 3, 2008 11:00 AM CDT

Previous positions:
First Base

I believe that second base is right with catcher as the strongest position in the organization, and when you take into account the fact that an all-star resides there at the major league level, I think you can argue that it is the strongest, at least at the upper levels. Though the surplus talent doesn't provide quite the caliber of trade bait that the backstops do, the Rangers could easily have three major league caliber second basemen waiting around behind Kinsler within a year.

Depth Chart:
Texas (MLB) - Ian Kinsler, Joaquin Arias
Oklahoma (AAA) - German Duran, Ryan Roberts, Drew Meyer
Frisco (AA) - Jose Vallejo
Bakersfield (A+) - Renny Osuna
Clinton (A) - Matt Lawson
Spokane (A-) - Kyle Higgins
AZL (RK) - Alejandro Selen

Top 2B prospects:
1. Jose Vallejo - much more powerful than some (I) realized going into the year
2. Marcus Lemon - reportedly figures to slide over, doesn't possess on-base issues that the other middle infield prospects do
3. German Duran - still right with Vallejo and Lemon but not an inspiring year, could still potentially lose prospect status with 29 September ABs
4. Renny Osuna - out of nowhere guy in the tradition of Kinsler and Duran
5. Drew Meyer?

Top 2B prospects in baseball (loosely ordered):
This is an extremely difficult position to project, because so many second basemen come from other positions. Just a best guess: Gordon Beckham (SS) CWS, Adrian Cardenas (SS) OAK, Carlos Triunfel (SS) SEA, Sean Rodriguez (SS) LAA, Jason Donald (SS) PHI, Chris Coghlan FLA, Jemile Weeks OAK, Ivan DeJesus (SS) LAD, Nick Noonan SF, Luke Hughes (3B) MIN

Top 2B organizations:
1. Philadelphia - Chase Utley, Jason Donald
2. Texas - Ian Kinsler, German Duran, Joaquin Arias, Jose Vallejo, Marcus Lemon
3. Boston - Dustin Pedroia, Jed Lowrie
4. LA Angels - Howie Kendrick, Sean Rodriguez, Macier Izturis
5. Oakland - Mark Ellis, Adrian Cardenas, Eric Patterson, Jemile Weeks

Where the Rangers fit:
Right at the top. Kinsler is one of the elite second basemen in the game, and the Rangers have minor league quality possibly only surpassed by Oakland. Some of these guys will go into the trade bait bin, but middle of the diamond depth is a great thing to have if you can maintain it. For one thing, it's a nice way to save a few million dollars in salary.

2009 outlook:
At the major league level, the only intrigue involves how the team decides to back up Kinsler. Assuming that he isn't the starting shortstop, Arias looks like a prime candidate to back up the middle infield, as he will need to be kept on the major league roster and appears very capable of making contact offensively. If Arias is on the roster, German Duran will have to continue to show defensive versatility and more offensive readiness to win a spot.

If Duran cannot win a major league spot, we may see everyone return to the level at which they finished the (minor league) year. A decision on Lemon's ultimate position might be delayed indefinitely, considering the nature of the opening on the big league club. If he can develop enough as a shortstop, he could be an ideal third middle infielder, with a skill set that features an ability to get on base.

As strong as the organization is at the upper levels, there is currently little high profile talent to speak of below Osuna. It should be noted that Duran and Vallejo were not much more than afterthoughts until they reached Bakersfield, but a position switch from someone like Matthew West might be the most viable way to add another talent to the position.

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Comments

Arias

Where would he rank? Behind Lemon? Or Duran?

"You’re the only here who contributes schtick only." - brettgardner

by trza on Sep 3, 2008 11:30 AM CDT 0 recs

As a second baseman

his defensive advantage is marginalized a little, and I’d have him a bit behind Duran, because I think that Duran will be a superior hitter. As an overall prospect, it’s a little harder to pick.

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by zywica on Sep 3, 2008 12:30 PM CDT up 0 recs

If his shoulder

prevents him from playing shortstop( or third), he’ll have a hard time making the majors as a util guy who plays only one spot. His poor walk rate might also make it hard for a club to consider him as a starting 2b. I wonder if he has a better chance in general, breaking in with a NL club, as a starting 2b who can’t walk, hits for ave, and and hits 9th…

by Goyogringo on Sep 3, 2008 2:42 PM CDT up 0 recs

Hits 8th you mean.

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by DJCahill on Sep 3, 2008 2:49 PM CDT up 0 recs

Maybe he meant that he would play for the Cardinals...

…and the barrister La Russa would bat him behind the pitcher.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Sep 3, 2008 3:22 PM CDT up 0 recs

yup my bad...

by Goyogringo on Sep 4, 2008 2:27 AM CDT up 0 recs

Sure

His ability to play a utility role is contingent on his arm improving. I think that there is a decent chance of that happening over the next 6-7 months.

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by zywica on Sep 3, 2008 4:02 PM CDT up 0 recs

from what I understand

the scope revealed no damage so the fact that there is a chronic problem does not bode well….

by Goyogringo on Sep 4, 2008 2:26 AM CDT up 0 recs

Kinsler

How about trading him for a SP?

Nolan Ryan should be the Rangers president, GM, manager and pitching coach.

by RangerMad on Sep 3, 2008 12:27 PM CDT 0 recs

No

Unlike Davis, who everyone figures has Smoak lurking in his shadows, none of the prospects that the Rangers have at 2nd figure to be as good as Kinsler (no knock on them – that is a very high level to reach). Take Kinsler out, and the Rangers will be in trouble at 2nd for a couple of years until a Vallejo or Lemon is ready to step in.

In my opinion, Kinsler is one of two untouchable guys in this organization.

by JBImaknee on Sep 3, 2008 12:33 PM CDT up 0 recs

the other being?

feliz?

by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Sep 3, 2008 12:48 PM CDT up 0 recs

Hamilton

I move Feliz in a few very select deals. Feliz + Blalock to SFG for Lincecum, for instance. I’m pretty sure no team will give up the type of player I want back if I’m trading Feliz, so perhaps he is untouchable.

Anyone you trade a key piece for should be someone who can help the team win NOW. You can trade Feliz, Davis (maybe), Holland, Andrus, any of the catchers without hurting the team’s chances in 2009. It’d be very hard to trade Hamilton or Kinsler and keep the offense as potent in 2009.

by JBImaknee on Sep 3, 2008 12:59 PM CDT up 0 recs

There is no one

I would not consider trading for Lincecum.

O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen,
und freudenvollere.

by t ball on Sep 3, 2008 1:51 PM CDT up 0 recs

wow.

turning Volquez into Lincecum would be sweet, indeed, but that’s a tough one…

"So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know... "

by Walter Sobchak on Sep 3, 2008 5:31 PM CDT up 0 recs

Trade him for a

top starting pitcher in a heartbeat.

by Jea103 on Sep 3, 2008 7:18 PM CDT up 0 recs

Like 1B

another position that looks much better than a year ago.

It’s encouraging that Arias has looked ok thus far. He has regained some value as a trade chip or as a utility option for next year. A competitive team needs depth, and with both Arias and Duran able to contribute next year, middle infield depth is not a worry.

Osuna might be the Ian Gac of 2B, with his production slipping a bit since moving up to Bakersfield. But his walk rate remained decent and he doesn’t strike out much and he might be a future backup option or trade bait.

If Kyle Higgins could only play at home (.853 OPS vs. .595 away) he’d be a monster.

Vallejo has to be one of the best surprised this year among position players. I think he might be the one out of this bunch that could top off a trade offer with his game, but I’d like to keep him in the system another year and see what he can do.

O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen,
und freudenvollere.

by t ball on Sep 3, 2008 12:37 PM CDT 0 recs

But 2b is kinda like LF

- other players move there when they prove inadequate at other postions so I’m not sure having a strong crop of 2b (who are destined to by utility guys) and left-fielders (almost every COF prospect in the system is a LF or projects there) is as important to an org as CF, RF, 3b, C, SS. IN addition the trade value for 2b/lf is not as high too boot. The system is very weak in 3b, RF, SS (behind andrus), and CF (behind Borbon).

by Goyogringo on Sep 3, 2008 2:50 PM CDT up 0 recs

I agree

with everything you say there. It’s still a plus that the position is much stronger than a year ago, isn’t it? And middle infield in general is in decent shape, though I think many here overestimate the SS position.

Are you forgetting Beltre behind Borbon? He has much work to do but still very promising. I see 3B as the weakest position. RF will work itself out, but they could definitely use more good OF options in both corners. Given that you need a lot of range in RBIA’s left field, the profile for corner guys is slightly different here, perhaps. You can’t just dump the slowfooted bats in left field and get away with it.

O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen,
und freudenvollere.

by t ball on Sep 3, 2008 2:59 PM CDT up 0 recs

Beltre plays cf

now but from most things that I have read he is just as likely to be a right fielder in 3 years, gentry is a 4th of/def replacemnt/PR type, and paisano may never hit above A level. Yes, of course, it is good to have depth anywhere, I just think future utility infielders arent all that valuable in the grand scheme of things nor do teams covet them as trade chips. Veterans usually fill utility roles, with good reason, and they can be had for cheap.

And yes, I think you are right about an RBIA left fielder needing greater range and we have plenty of those in the system. I was just thinking about the RF prospects who have not realized their raw power in the system: Gerrard, Mayberry, Moreland (if he hits 30 hr in AA then you can say he has arrived, but it is a little early to judge him, as he should hit well being an older college guy in low A). Bianucci and Beltre could be RF in the future, but Bianucci has an unsound swing by all accounts that will need to be worked on (and we saw what happened to Mayberry’s power when he addressed the holes in his swing) and Beltre is a real wild card wherever he might end up. He could put on 30 pounds and hit 30 hr/yr or not gain any weight at all and stick at CF or not make it to the majors at all due to his lack of plate discipline. Ben Harrison may make it as a RF but perhaps not with this team.

by Goyogringo on Sep 3, 2008 5:00 PM CDT up 0 recs

Things I've read

don’t indicate that Beltre would move because he’s unable to handle CF any longer, though. In this organization, if Borbon is the CF, Beltre figures to have enough bat to move to RF.

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by zywica on Sep 3, 2008 5:03 PM CDT up 0 recs

yes I agree

superb defensive cf who will move off the spot only if he realizes his plus plus raw power

by Goyogringo on Sep 3, 2008 5:14 PM CDT up 0 recs

I think Tim Smith

profiles as a perfect LF for ABIA. I hope he continues to do well…

by Goyogringo on Sep 3, 2008 5:18 PM CDT up 0 recs

Dude, You're Tough...

First off, at Center they’ve got Julio Borbon and Engel Beltre. But more importantly, when you say “behind (insert blue-chip prospect),” what is it that you realistically expect in an organization? I mean if Elvis Andrus is considered a Top 100 Prospect in baseball, what exactly do you think Plan B should be at Shortstop? I consider Marcus Lemon, Renny Osuna and Jose Vallejo (assuming he could handle SS) to be a pretty strong group when you consider that it’s what you’re left with should Andrus not pan out.

I will, however, agree about Third Base. Looking at the minor leagues, Jose Vallejo isn’t on the depth chart behind one of the top prospects in all of baseball at his position. Rather, assuming Vallejo can play that corner, he is in the running with John Whittleman, Matt West and German Duran (assuming he too can play third) as the best prospect at the position.

Although it should be said that with third base there are certainly other options. If Chris Davis can handle the position, he’s a possibility there. Michael Young could very well end up there for a few seasons. Also, if either of them don’t figure in at catcher and the trade market doesn’t make moving them very tempting, I’d be interested in knowing if Jarrod Saltalamacchia or Max Ramirez (who started his minor league career at third base) would be able to cover third.

It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/

by YourNameHere on Sep 3, 2008 3:32 PM CDT up 0 recs

Duran can play 3B

I think we’ve seen enough to be confident of that, for whatever it’s worth.

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by zywica on Sep 3, 2008 4:04 PM CDT up 0 recs

Maybe thats a scenario this team should look at when deciding to pick up Blalocks option,

Do we pick it up, move Davis to third and risk hurting Davis’ development?

Or do we have Davis at first, Duran at third, and not pick up Blalock’s option?

Im going with the latter!

The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ

by NYTXFAN on Sep 3, 2008 8:03 PM CDT up 0 recs

3b

Both Whit/west were HS shortstops not projected to play there as prospects. Too big to play 2b/ss they will be allowed to play themselves off of 3b. With only doubles/gap power and average defense, I would not be suprised to see both end up in LF. Duran was groomed for the utility guy role last winter when he played 3b and we have seen this year that he can play the position, though perhaps not full-time. He also played 100+ games at SS in th minors so I wonder if the rangers would trust him to be their new Vazquez next year, playing all inf positions. Max played 3b in DSL so that was a long time ago…

Also, I don’t see lemon or osuna as major league starters at SS and both are not in the same league as Andrus and Vajello defensively, in fact they both seemed to regress this year, with a large increase in errors compared to last year. I think lemon and osuna profile as utility guys but neither seem to be as versatile as Duran. I wonder if Vallejo might see some time at SS this winter/next year ….?

by Goyogringo on Sep 3, 2008 5:47 PM CDT 0 recs

Responding to Goyogringo...

Even if he’d never played there, I don’t think it wouldn’t be shocking if Max Ramirez, or Jarrod Saltalamacchia for that matter, could be moved over to third and become a solid defender. In the future, I wonder if Cristian Santana’s name will be mentioned as a possibility there as well.

John Whittleman does look like a pretty horrible defensive third baseman, but I think it’s a little premature to write off Matt West, who’s still a teenager for the next couple of months. Whittleman will also only be 22 next year, and it’s certainly possible that the home run power we started seeing last year will return. But yeah, Johnny, even if that bat does come along, might have to try his luck in left field.

I don’t know if it’s fair to say that German Duran was really “groomed for the utility guy role,” although his versatility was certainly examined. Since it’s unlikely he’ll be an All-Star, there’s a good chance that there will be multiple players at different positions who are better than him at any given time, and therefore if he can play a position where he’s better than the next best option, he could be playing everyday. Although it may be the case that Duran simply proves that he isn’t a good enough hitter to deserve an everyday job, and he could wind up in the utility role after all.

I’ll give you that Renny Osuna’s defense, coupled with the fact that he’ll be 24 the first month of next season, isn’t helping his case. Marcus Lemon, however, is 20, and had he decided to go to a four-year college, wouldn’t have been eligible to be drafted again until next June. It’s not unreasonable to think that he could become an average defensive shortstop, although second base may in the end be the better option, especially with Elvis Andrus in the fold.

It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/

by YourNameHere on Sep 3, 2008 6:22 PM CDT up 0 recs

I would

be surprised to see max at third (if he plays no third in winter ball or spring training, I think you’ll have your answer) and i don’t think that salty has the agility/feet/hands to play the position (and Davis is playing at about 215 now down from 235; salty is 235). I brought up the W/W comparison because their profiles are so similar. Yes, West is young(er), and only played half a season due to his suspension, but I don’t think it is a stretch to suggest that both will never hit for power and both will never bring plus defense. Having said that, they don’t profile as a typical third basemen, more like LF.

As for Lemon, I will be high on him if he has a Duran/Vajello-like year at AA next year, but I am still in the minority about his ceiling despite his age. He had a bad year last year, so I will change my tune after 2 good years in a row. Just for the record, Osuna will turn 24 at the beginning of next season, and Lemon will turn 21 a few months in. I may be wrong, but I think Osuna may have missed a season due to visa issues. If that is the case, the age issue decreases even further and disappears altogether if Osuna gets to AAA next season. But, yeah, he profiles as a utility guy, and if Lemon puts it all together, maybe he could be a starting 2b one fine day.

by Goyogringo on Sep 3, 2008 7:29 PM CDT up 0 recs

Marcus Lemon...

Marcus Lemon was 18/19 last year in Clinton and more than held his own against older competition, hitting .261/.352/.363. I guess we’ll have to see what happens next year in Double-A at Frisco, which I’ve heard is the hardest jump to make. I bet he’ll still be at shortstop. If it takes him minor league seasons in 2009, 2010, and 2011 before he cracks the major leagues, he’ll be 23 on Opening Day, 2012. That’s a lot of time to work on his defense.

Also, when it comes to shortstops in the organization other than Elvis Andrus, in addition to Jose Vallejo, Lemon, and Renny Osuna, there’s Joaquin Arias as well. I’m not sure if German Duran could ever play an extended period at SS.

It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/

by YourNameHere on Sep 3, 2008 7:42 PM CDT up 0 recs