Charting the organization - Shortstop

by Brett Perryman on Sep 4, 2008 11:00 AM CDT Comment 32 comments

Previous positions:
First Base
Second Base

Shortstop in this organization is all about two guys, Michael Young and Elvis Andrus, and when Andrus will bump Young to another position.

Depth Chart:
Texas (MLB) - Michael Young, Ramon Vazquez
Oklahoma (AAA) - Casey Benjamin
Frisco (AA) - Elvis Andrus
Bakersfield (A+) - Marcus Lemon
Clinton (A) - Andres James, David Davis Stoneburner
Spokane (A-) - Edward Koncel
AZL (RK) - Leury Garcia
DSL1 (RK) - Edwin Garcia

Top SS prospects:
1. Elvis Andrus - ETA is becoming a key question for organization
2. Marcus Lemon - have to double-rank him to avoid angering dirkatron
3. Joaquin Arias - health of his arm, viability as a stop-gap starter still in question
4, 5. - I really don't know. James didn't hit at all this year and I know very little about the Garcias

Top SS prospects in baseball (loosely ordered):
Reid Brignac TB, Elvis Andrus TEX, Alcides Escobar MIL, Tim Beckham TB, Wilmer Flores NYM, Hector Gomez COL, Brandon Hicks ATL, Oscar Tejeda BOS, Cale Iorg DET, Carlos Rivero CLE

Top SS organizations:
1. Colorado - Troy Tulowitzki, Hector Gomez, Chris Nelson
2. Florida - Hanley Ramirez
3. NY Mets - Jose Reyes, Wilmer Flores, Ruben Tejada
4. Milwaukee - JJ Hardy, Alcides Escobar, Brent Brewer
5. Tampa Bay - Jason Bartlett, Ben Zobrist, Reid Brignac, Tim Beckham

Where the Rangers fit:
Despite the fact that many Rangers fans would like to see him do something other than play shortstop, Young keeps making all-star teams. Andrus is one of a very small group of legitimate two-way shortstop prospects and gives the Rangers one of the best veteran/prospect combos in baseball.

2009 outlook:
Most observers expect Young to open the season at shortstop (though some think that he could be moved as soon as next spring), but how much longer he stays there could be determined by how quickly Andrus masters AAA and cuts down on his defensive mistakes. Arias figures in the equation as well, though not as a long term solution.

Lemon will be Frisco's shortstop next season. Below him it is hard to identify anyone as a viable prospect.

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Comments

Without Andrus

SS, not 3B would be the weakest position in the system.

I hope they are patient with Andrus, he could stay in AAA until next September at least and still be in Arlington at a very young age. There are innumerable scenarios that could play out between SS, 3B and 1B next year, involving Blalock, Davis, Young, Andrus, Arias and any possible stopgaps acquired for those positions. My preference is that they just stick Davis at 1B, and either get a stopgap at SS or 3B depending on where Young is.

O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen,
und freudenvollere.

by t ball on Sep 4, 2008 11:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Stopgap

Young’s defense is the elephant in the room, but still…no one’s going to ask him to move for a stopgap.

They’ll ask him to move for the SS of the future, and probably not less.

Upward pressure.

Go Strangers.

by hightowersmith on Sep 4, 2008 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are right but that doesn't change the fact that it's so stupid...

…Isn’t it enough that we bat the poster boy for averageness 2nd and are going to pay him an 8 figure salary for years to come? It’s preposterous that his “feelings” or “professional pride” must be considered when we are trying to put our best team on the field.

Physician: Primum non nocere

Batter: First, make no out

by Chad Crudup on Sep 4, 2008 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I concur

OTOH, we don’t know if Young wouldn’t move in the offseason.

by Requiem on Sep 4, 2008 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lineups...

the problem is to move FOTF to 3rd we are blocking one a place to put davis when we bring up smoak in 2010… basically, after 2 seasons FOTF will be hurting for playing time…

2009: 2010: 2011:
1b blalock davis/smoak smoak
2b kinsler kins kin
ss albatross andrus andrus
3rd davis albatross davis
dh maxram smoak/davis albatross/FA

"He wont have anything. 1 man, 0 tools."~ hiafex bout longhorn...

by ivysafety39 on Sep 4, 2008 11:29 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

2011...

Albatross, huh? Why don’t you tell us how you really feel about Michael Young?

YNH’s 2011 Line Up (age on April 1st, 2011 in parentheses):
CF – Julio Borbon (25)
2B – Ian Kinsler (28)
RF – Josh Hamilton (29)
1B – Justin Smoak (24)
3B – Chris Davis (25)
DH – Max Ramirez (26) – Also serves as backup catcher
LF – Jarrod Saltalamacchia (25)
C – Taylor Teagarden (27)
SS- Elvis Andrus (22)

Bench:
UT/DH – Michael Young (34)

It’s not quite Murderers’ Row, but it could be very good.

I imagine that Young’s reputation as “The Face of the Franchise” (which, in my opinion, would be worth more if the Rangers were good during his career to this point) will keep him on the field. He could DH when Ramirez is behind the plate and could spell Davis, Smoak, Saltalamacchia and Kinsler. I imagine that in 2011, injuries will still be part of the game. And to the “You Don’t DH Catchers”-Crowd, Saltalamacchia could also play there in a pinch.

The only thing that worries me about the Saltalamacchia-Borbon-Hamilton outfield is the memories it evokes of being disappointed the last time I had high hopes for a group of 3 J’s.

It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/

by YourNameHere on Sep 4, 2008 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Salty in left would be a disaster me thinks.

I'm undefeated in fights. Have I been in any? No. Thats because people know my f'ing status. Don't mess with the elite. - Miles

by Dirk Diggler on Sep 4, 2008 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

Hopefully Borbon runs like Usain Bolt, because Salty would have about as much range in LF as a three-toed sloth.

by uthornfan on Sep 4, 2008 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bolt without the

roids, even…

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
"If you ain't got no money, ain't nobody calls you honey," Bo Diddley

by Rodney on Sep 4, 2008 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that would be ugly

by Goyogringo on Sep 4, 2008 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Okay, how about...

I don’t get this belief that Jarrod Saltalamacchia is as agile as a coma patient (and I have a VERY hard time believing that he weighs 20 lbs. more than Chris Davis). But what about this line up:

CF- Julio Borbon
2B- Ian Kinsler
LF- Josh Hamilton
1B- Justin Smoak
RF- Chris Davis
3B- Max Ramirez
DH- Jarrod Saltalamacchia
C – Taylor Teagarden
SS- Elvis Andrus

It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/

by YourNameHere on Sep 4, 2008 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So you replace a horrible LF with a horrible 3B?

One of the three is gonna have to go. Luckily Max cam start next year in AAA and show he can hit there before we start calling him our permanent DH.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Sep 4, 2008 9:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How do you know...

How do you know that Max Ramirez would be a horrible 3B?

It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/

by YourNameHere on Sep 4, 2008 9:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just going off prior reports

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Sep 4, 2008 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What did they say? Any links?

Max Ramirez played third base for 40 games four years ago in his first year of professional ball, so it’s hard to believe that he played so poorly that it’s completely hopeless to try him there.

It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/

by YourNameHere on Sep 4, 2008 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmmm

Never thought of trying Max at 3B, but that’s pretty interesting.

Inge made the transition pretty well, and Martin possibly might end up there, so it’s been done before.

by Requiem on Sep 4, 2008 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Inge

He was drafted as a shortstop, was converted to catcher, and was always considered a very good defensive catcher.

I don’t think he’s a real good datapoint for Max.

by Adam J. Morris on Sep 4, 2008 10:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm

Didn’t know that, but then again, I didn’t research it.

Still, it’s not completely crazy, and given our dearth of prospects at 3B, it might not be a bad thing to look into….

Of course, it would probably be better to have Young move there, but it might not be that bad to have a backup plan.

by Requiem on Sep 4, 2008 11:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

There are some others...

B.J. Surhoff (3B/1B/LF), Todd Zeile (3B/1B), Craig Biggio (2B), Brian Downing (LF) and Dale Murphy (CF/RF) all started out as catchers.

Of course, there were also some less successful experiments regarding Carlton Fisk (LF) and Johnny Bench (3B/1B).

It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/

by YourNameHere on Sep 4, 2008 11:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Max

Everything I have read and heard points to his bad defense as the reason he was moved off 3B and behind the plate. Id rather trade him then play him at 3B

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Sep 5, 2008 7:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I take it you aren't too high on Lemon?

Another good year next season will force people to start seeing him as a legit shortstop prospect.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Sep 4, 2008 2:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The reason Z said that

is that he’s already been covered in the 2B discussion.

O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen,
und freudenvollere.

by t ball on Sep 4, 2008 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Z hates Lil' Lemon, just like everyone else on this board

It’s kind of getting silly, actually. During the second base discussion when Z was trying to overcome his hatred and talk about the things Lemon does well he couldn’t even list his plate discipline as a strength, he had to refer to it as something like a “non-weakness”.

But don’t worry. Lil’ Lemon is gonna show everybody. Show everybody…

The 40 Trumps All!!!

by thedirkatron on Sep 4, 2008 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

one

another

you’re not alone.

"Popularity is fleeting. Principles are forever."
"Maybe congress should take more vacations, whenever these people leave town, things just seem to get better..." - Jay Leno

by Longhorn on Sep 4, 2008 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, I kinda feel the Lemon Camp

has a lot of room for expansion. Remember the absolute disaster of the LSB Mid Season Top Prospect Vote?

Oh welll

by laxtonto on Sep 4, 2008 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What makes you think that?

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by Brett Perryman on Sep 4, 2008 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please address

the silliness of the idea of Ramirez at 3B in your next report.

O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen,
und freudenvollere.

by t ball on Sep 5, 2008 6:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please do...

I would really like to understand why the idea is so unsound. It sounds like Max Ramirez is destined to be a DH here. Does he lack the range? I know it’s not the arm strength.

Obviously, if the trade market makes moving a few catchers desirable, then that’s perfectly understandable. If Max Ramirez is too good a catching prospect then that would lead me to believe a trade would likely be in order (either leaving him as the Rangers’ catcher or dealing him so that he can resume catching elsewhere). But if he’s going to be a 1B/DH/Backup C, I don’t know why Ramirez can’t be given a try at third.

It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/

by YourNameHere on Sep 5, 2008 7:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's been in the can

for a few days, but I do have an opinion on it and I’ll throw it out in the comments.

Offense doesn't doubt me, but my first and primemost thing is defense and punt return and kickoff return

by Brett Perryman on Sep 5, 2008 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Stoneburner

Not that it matters because he will probably be out of baseball sooner than later, but it is Davis Stoneburner not David. Just a cool name, which is why I even noticed he exists.

by srptex on Sep 4, 2008 6:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

FOTF

Obviously, MY is not much longer going to man SS for us, regardless of who is in the pipeline behind him. Hence we talk of moves to 3b, LF, etc.

Just curious, do you guys think MY could still be a second baseman? Ignoring the fact we have Kinsler there already, could our statue of a SS still play a decent 2nd, or is he just too immobile?

Just wondering what ya’ll think, not advocating it or wanting to pick a fight.

by srptex on Sep 4, 2008 6:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs