Charting the organization - Third Base
by zywica
on Sep 5, 2008 11:00 AM CDT
Previous positions:
First Base
Second Base
Shortstop
Third base might be the Rangers' most uncertain position, and its future is more unclear than at any point since the start of the decade. One of as many as six current Rangers could conceivably be the primary third baseman next season, as could someone from the outside.
Depth Chart:
Texas (MLB) - Chris Davis, Ramon Vazquez
Oklahoma (AAA) - Travis Metcalf
Frisco (AA) - Johnny Whittleman
Bakersfield (A+) - Erik Morrison
Clinton (A) - Jonathan Greene
Spokane (A-) - Matthew West
AZL (RK) - Johan Yan
DSL (RK) - Emmanuel Solis, Miguel Moreno
Top 3B prospects:
1. Johnny Whittleman - disappointing season overall but doesn't look out of place in AA
2. Matthew West - 2007 second round pick has held his own but has not shown power
3. Jonathan Greene - basically a default choice, not having a bad year
4, 5. Johan Yan/Emmanuel Solis/Miguel Moreno - three bonus babies who haven't really made inroads as legitimate prospects...Moreno has hit a little, while Yan and Solis could have futures on the mound
Top 3B prospects in baseball (loosely ordered):
Pedro Alvarez (status uncertain) PIT, Mike Moustakas KC, Matt Gamel (DH?) MIL, Josh Vitters CHC, Matt Dominguez FLA, Todd Frazier (SS) CIN, Neftali Soto CIN, Brett Lawrie (Utility?) MIL, Allen Craig STL, Kevin Ahrens TOR
Top 3B organizations:
1. NY Mets - David Wright, Dan Murphy
2. Tampa Bay - Evan Longoria
3. Chicago Cubs - Aramis Ramirez, Josh Vitters
4. NY Yankees - Alex Rodriguez
5. Kansas City - Alex Gordon, Mike Moustakas
Where the Rangers fit:
That all depends. If Davis stays here and can handle it defensively, he figures to be one of the more productive third basemen in baseball. If Michael Young moves here, it probably continues to be average to a little below average. If we see a stop-gap, this spot figures to bat last in the lineup and be among the weaker in the league.
2009 outlook:
Hank Blalock appears to be done with the position, at least in this organization. Davis has drawn better reviews in the majors than he did last year in the minors. Ron Washington seems to have some faith in him defensively here, though it is unclear whether that's against the backdrop of a short term or long term solution. My money is on his stay being short, however, as Davis moving to Michael Young's most natural destination leaves the one guy with a a big contract without a position. I have never seen Young play this spot, but I have to think that the best bet is that he spends the bulk of his remaining time in Texas at the hot corner.
German Duran and Metcalf will be default options, though neither looks at all likely to hit enough to handle the position full time. Whittleman should open back at Frisco and is the one viable prospect in the system. West will likely get his first taste of full season ball in Clinton.
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What are everyone's thoughts
about Davis at third so far?
by FirebatM3 on Sep 5, 2008 11:10 AM CDT 0 recs
looked good to me
I do worry about his body getting bigger and him not being able to play it but not for awhile. I think the ideal scenario is to bring Hank back, play Hank at 1B, Davis at 3B, and MY at SS next year. If Hank goes down for an extended period Davis can slide back over to 1B. If Hank gets traded midseason or a season ending injury then we can move Davis to 1B, MY to 3B and bring Elvis up around August or so next year.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Sep 5, 2008 11:18 AM CDT
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Solid-average
Better than I expected. His cannon somewhat mitigates any perceived lack of defensive range. Haven’t seen much of him yet though.
That being said, it’s either third base or bust long-term for MY (or DH, I guess, but that’s beside the point), so it wouldn’t surprise me if the organization simply kept CD at first next year just for consistency’s sake.
by jamcadbury on
Sep 5, 2008 11:59 AM CDT
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So what's the skinny...
zywica,
Can you tell us why neither Max Ramirez nor Jarrod Saltalamacchia could potentially be able to play third? Somebody mentioned that Saltalamacchia was too big because he weighed 235 lbs and Chris Davis was at 215 lbs this year. I’m having a tough time believing that the guy who strained his forearm throwing to first base on Monday weighs the same as the guy who was covering third base on the same play, let alone twenty pounds more.
I think the idea of trying Saltalamacchia and Ramirez at third base are at least worth considering. But if it’s counterproductive, I’d certainly want to know. I’d rather just admit to being wrong then to continue suggesting things that will prove to harm the Rangers in the long run. Obviously, the trade market for catchers will factor in pretty heavily.
It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/
by YourNameHere on Sep 5, 2008 12:03 PM CDT 0 recs
reaction time and reflex speed
I’m no expert but salty seems slow to react to things and slow period, including balls in the dirt and the like. Dunno about Max as I haven’t seen him move very much.
by bushe on
Sep 5, 2008 12:10 PM CDT
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It would seem...
It would seem to me that a catcher with slow reaction time, as you suggest Jarrod Saltalamacchia of being one, would be a good candidate to move to a position like third base. I can’t imagine there’s a position more demanding of fast reflexes and quick reaction time than a catcher.
It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/
by YourNameHere on
Sep 5, 2008 12:28 PM CDT
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Reading an old Scout.com interview
Ramirez was moved from catcher to third against his will and had a miserable season defensively with the GCL Braves in ‘04 (when he appeared in 42 games). Said he wasn’t comfortable and that he sees himself as a catcher.
I’ve asked Jason Parks about this very possibility before and he said something to the effect of “ain’t gonna happen.”
Don’t know about Saltalamacchia, but I suspect it would take a long time to turn Jarrod or Max into halfway competent defenders at the hot corner. Don’t think the Rangers have that much patience.
by jamcadbury on
Sep 5, 2008 12:14 PM CDT
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Fair enough...
If they’re going to be major liabilities at the hot corner, then that really mitigates what, in my opinion, will be very good major league bats. Do you think either of them could handle left field?
Also, do you think Cristian Santana might be able to hand the third base? He had a disappointing year after starting the year at Clinton, which was mildly suprising, as I had read that he was going to begin at extended Spring Training. But he’s young enough to repeat the Midwest League, and if he can play third, he could move up to the top of the Rangers’ prospects there.
It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/
by YourNameHere on
Sep 5, 2008 12:22 PM CDT
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I don't think anyone who...
…follows the minor leagues the way jparks, z, mjh, etc. do believes Ramirez to 3B has a chance in hell of happening.
by Adam J. Morris on
Sep 5, 2008 12:24 PM CDT
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I didn't think so either, but I didn't want to put words into somebody else's mouth that I hadn't personally talked to
I hear Z thinks he can make a killer center fielder, though.
by jamcadbury on
Sep 5, 2008 12:28 PM CDT
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I agree
I bet Zebra Cakes LUUUUUVS the idea of Mad Max in center.
by Adam J. Morris on
Sep 5, 2008 12:33 PM CDT
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No, I think
He meant Z fancies himself in center.
by Back Door Yakker on
Sep 5, 2008 12:50 PM CDT
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Salty had problems
at first base. Third base would only be worse.
by Jea103 on
Sep 5, 2008 4:51 PM CDT
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He only played there...
Jarrod Saltalamacchia played 38 games at First Base last year. He’d never played there in the Minor Leagues. I think it’s too early to say he can’t play either of the corners.
Although Saltalamacchia is also only 23 and, to my knowledge, the second youngest catcher in the Major Leagues (22-year-old Pablo Sandoval has played 7 games behind the plate for the offensively-inert Giants since being called up three weeks ago), so it’s also very possible that he turns out to be a very good Big Leage Catcher.
The reason I’d like to examine all avenues with the talent the Rangers have is because the examples that come to my mind where a team is “pushing” to trade a player because it has too many players for one position often leaves that team getting lowballed: the Braves with Brian McCann/Saltalamacchia; the Rangers with Mark Teixeira/Adrian Gonzalez; and before that, the Rangers again with Juan Gonzalez/Sammy Sosa.
It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/
by YourNameHere on
Sep 5, 2008 5:31 PM CDT
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"pushing"
The solution is not to push a player into a position he’s not well suited for. Just make a good trade. It’s not trading because you “have to”, it’s dealing from a positional strength.
O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen,
und freudenvollere.
by t ball on
Sep 5, 2008 7:26 PM CDT
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Whittleman
I’ve been very discouraged by him this year, but he is still pretty young. He’s the best of the bunch by far, but even he is a longshot with a terrible defensive reputation. Greene’s bat is ok I guess, but he’s also challenged with the glove. Young may end up being better than any of the other options by default. (assuming Davis is 1B or DH long term).
O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen,
und freudenvollere.
by t ball on Sep 5, 2008 12:49 PM CDT 0 recs
Kevin Ahrens
He was the 16th overall pick of the 2007 draft
Now, anyone remembers which team did Toronto get that pick from? Obviously, the Rangers. Why? Just for signing current benchwarmer Frank Catalanotto.
by chrisR on Sep 5, 2008 1:15 PM CDT 0 recs
Ahrens
Are you upset we didn’t get to draft a guy with a 726 OPS in A ball?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on
Sep 5, 2008 1:28 PM CDT
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I'll take that
over Catalanotto (especially after everyone knew we wouldn’t be able to contend the next year).
by chrisR on
Sep 5, 2008 1:35 PM CDT
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Jose Vallejo...
Does anyone think that Jose Vallejo might be a candidate in the future at third base? I haven’t seen him play a whole lot, but he supposedly is a very good defender with an arm that could handle the hot corner. His offensive line in Frisco was so-so (.297/.341/.394 with just 2 Home Runs in 283 plate appearances), but he’s got incredible speed, as evidenced by his 42 for 46 stolen base record between the California and Texas Leagues, and youth on his side (turns 22 next Thursday).
It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/
by YourNameHere on Sep 5, 2008 1:53 PM CDT 0 recs
That would be a sweet infield
Vallejo at 3rd, Andrus at SS, Kinsler at 2nd, Davis/Smoak at 1st, Young nowhere to be seen. I like it.
by hiafex on
Sep 5, 2008 1:57 PM CDT
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Top 2008 AL 3B OPS
ARod (NYY) – 1.000
Longoria (TAM) – .885
Mora (BAL) – .835
Guillen (DET) – .811
Beltre (SEA) – .783
Gordon (KAN) – .769
MY (2008) – .749
CD (2008) – .882 (Granted: sample size concers)
Point being – If you decide Davis can handle things defensively and you believe Smoak is the future at first, why go with an inferior offensive option at third (who hasn’t played there a lot himself) just because he has a huge contract, is the FOTF and there’s no where else to put him? I say put the best 9 on the field, no matter what. Just my two cents. I realize it’s not that simple.
by hca4 on Sep 5, 2008 2:27 PM CDT 0 recs
Is MY really inferior defensively to CD?
I have no idea, personally.
"Oh well, McCain is pretty communist anyway,... we can be 70% communist with McCain,"-Sharky
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by DJCahill on
Sep 5, 2008 3:17 PM CDT
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Relax...
I’m sure zywica will cover Marcus Lemon when he gets to potential Ace Starting Pitchers, All-Star Catchers, and Parousia.
It's not my website, but you should visit Andy Seiler's First-Rate http://texasrangersanalyst.blogspot.com/
by YourNameHere on
Sep 5, 2008 2:41 PM CDT
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Duran
Predictions on German for a full season at 3B, anyone?
He’s the forgotten man. If he approached last year’s Frisco performance (.300/.352/.525, 480 AB) on the ML level, he could offensively take over the position. As for this year, you have to trust JD’s decision to keep him on the ML bench.
You remove the overexposure risk by making him a utility guy, but this system is too thin at 3B. He’s a candidate, and a better one than Vazquez or Davis.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Sep 6, 2008 1:56 PM CDT 0 recs
I don't think it's realistic
to expect Duran to approach his Frisco numbers at the ML level.
O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen,
und freudenvollere.
by t ball on
Sep 6, 2008 2:37 PM CDT
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Duran
do you think he can OPS .800?
"The question of how we came to be is a philosophical one." - 4HIM
by Chase Irwin on
Sep 6, 2008 3:34 PM CDT
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Maybe
but I’m not sure he can do it playing 3B flltime, or anywhere fulltime for that matter. He’s probably better off as a utility guy who has a little pop in his bat. He’s a role player on a very good team, which has value.
O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!
Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen,
und freudenvollere.
by t ball on
Sep 6, 2008 8:52 PM CDT
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Third Base
Hmmmm, Your third base list is incomplete…..What about Adam Fox… he might have had 8 errors at 3rd all season he is a defensive machine. I have seen him stop drop and roll for more balls, throw guys out from his knees time after time and turn a ton of double plays. Granted, Fox’s hits might have not dropped in the gap for him this year but slugging average is close to everyone on your 3rd list he deserves to be mentioned for his 3rd base play, leadership and being a big part to getting Frisco to the play offs. Fox is the kind of guy the fans love to watch and man can he watch for BB’s, what an eye! Way to go Frisco Fan Favorite. Fox deserves to be on the short list! Go Riders lets go all the way!!!!
J
by FriscoJim on Sep 7, 2008 6:51 PM CDT 0 recs
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