Rangers pursuing Omar Vizquel
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 16, 2009 11:08 PM CST
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PrintPer T.R. Sullivan, the Rangers are reportedly after Omar Vizquel as a potential shortstop option, in case Elvis Andrus proves not to be ready.
Sullivan's article includes a note that a "source said there is a good chance the deal will get done."
I like this. Vizquel can't hit, but he's still a terrific glove man, and gives you a cheap insurance policy so that if you decide that Elvis could you another couple of months in the minors (which, fwiw, would be my preference anyway), you've got someone in place.
And Vizquel, as a well-respected veteran, is probably going to be more acceptable to Michael Young than, say, Matt Kata or someone like that would be, should the Rangers decide to keep Andrus in the minors for a month or two. If Andrus doesn't start the season with the Rangers -- and personally, I'd guess he won't, if they bring Vizquel in -- it is going to be hard to claim that, well, Young should move back to shortstop and bump Vizquel.
He'd be a perfect stopgap measure, and a guy who could work with Elvis in spring training.
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Good plan JD
This is going to give Andrus plenty of time to get ready in AAA and helps keep him from being a “Super 2” arbitration player
+1
"No... JD has been exposed as a kid who trades his remote-controlled helicopters for paper airplanes, then fails to consider the feelings of the paper airplane when he refolded it into a hat." -Telegraph.
by Kinslerhomer on Jan 17, 2009 7:43 AM CST up reply actions
And the local media
will find a way to twist this into the Rangers lying to Young about Andrus being ready, or some such nonsense.
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I love hearing this
Good job front office. If this deal goes down, this was handled perfectly. You moved Young the only way possible and you bring in a defensive expert to help out in the areas where FOTF is below average. Over/Under a 0.25 ERA reduction from last years pitching staff?
I am starting to think JD is a very old school
baseball man in his personal philosophy
Pitching and defense, strong up the middle…
I originally thought it was just BPA when he focused on the strong up the middle philosophy when he had a choice on several equal value player in the draft.
I thought the same thing when hearing about the FA he was looking at targeting.
I thought it was a coincidence with is trades.
But combine all of those factors with now moving Young and going after an all glove SS and I truely belive JD is staright up old school. No wonder Nolan likes him.
With the ending of the steroid era, speed and pitching and defense may take a larger place in the the major leagues again and it seems that JD is riding that wave at the forefront
Yeah I remember hearing that
Didn’t Beane flip it on everyone and started paying attention to that?
"I have kids, so when I get on the mound I see someone else trying to steal my job and make my life hell. So I try to do the same thing to them." -- Eric Gagne
Well, its always going to be something different.
Once you couldn’t find cheap high OBP guys anymore, it became easier to find cheap guys who could field.
The search is always going to be on for guys who can help you out without costing you too much.
Get off my lawn.
Yup...
That’s the thing about Moneyball that people commonly misunderstand. Beane isn’t horny for OBP. He was just exploiting what was being undervalued at the time, that being OBP. Now though ever since the book, it’s valued more correctly, thus less bargains in that area.
Now it seems defense may be a thing that’s undervalued and it looks like Daniels may be catching onto it early like Beane was early on the OBP wagon.
Stars in a Texas Night Sky, a Dallas Stars blog from a fan's perspective.
Joel Sherman
Joel Sherman has been filling in for the past couple of weeks on the morning baseball show on XM. Some idiot Red Sox fan (and I do mean a friggin’ idiot) called in. Right before he hung up, he said, “Beware Lars Anderson”. Sherman then, in what seemed to me, took a shot at baseball fans who pin such high hopes on prospects they have never seen. He also made some comments about how the prospects from the BA Top 100 list pan out, and mentioned bloggers as those who overvalue prospects. Somebody later called in and said that publications like BA are quite competent, and that you can have an informed opinion about players you have never seen.
Anyways, Sherman “clarified” himself by saying that the smart teams are the ones who do not overvalue their prospects. They are able to identify the small handful of prospects who will actually be stars, and not let the others get in the way of signing a FA or trading for a veteran. It kinda seems that Sherman made an entirely different point, but whatever. In his opinion, you can start to find some good deals on the free agent market or in trades because too many teams are overvaluing prospects.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Jan 17, 2009 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
Absolutely
Although we’re almost getting to a point where that’s being overvalued. First it was OBP, then D, then injured players, now minors, I wonder what’s next.
I need to think something lasts forever, and it might as well be that state of being that is a game; it might as well be that, in a green field, in the sun.
I don't think that's really old school.
It’s just smart.
The A’s are well noted for their obsession with quantifying defense, and they’re certainly not old school.
but that hasn't always been the case...
i’m with cahill on this… the whole theory of moneyball is finding out what skill is being under valued and loading up on it cheaply… if defense becomes a premium the way OBP did shortly after oaklands success then beane and the A’s will be looking for the next cheap skill set that can set them apart…
but the A’s being “well noted for their obsession” is just the flavor of the last couple seasons for beane… hell, in the early 00’s they didn’t care a lick about defense if the guy had a great OBP…
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
This is 100% true.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
A's and Defense
If they value defense that much then whats the explanation for Jack Cust being anything other than a DH
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Lack of options plus
he’s got a pretty good bat. For a couple of million dollars, he gives the A’s a lot of offensive production and they can then use the DH spot with an old player like Thomas or Piazza hoping to get those guys’ cheap bats into the lineup. I’m sure though that they if that DH spot is open, they will give it to Cust.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
It was more of just pointing out they value defense but stick a guy like him in the outfield when he’s clearly more suited for dh.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Probably because it's better than playing Frank Thomas in the field.
He played the majority of the games that Thomas wasn’t in the lineup at DH.
Not to mention...
…always nice to have a future HOFer on the team!
/ducks and covers
My 2009 New Years Resolution: Quit feeding the trolls.
I am doubting he will go into the hall as a Ranger
But I would love to see Vizquel enjoy his time here enough to get involved as a roving MINF instructor.
It is a lot like the Nolan factor. It would be very hard for a young kid to tell Omar “your full of shit” when they are afraid to get hit with one of his 11 gold gloves. Being that he is originally from Venezuela and the very Latin makeup of the Rangers lower minors and I think he would be perfect for the job.
Yeah...
…I was being kind of facetious, because the “Is Omar Vizquel a HOFer?” debate is one that can get heated and divisive.
And no way in hell he’d go in as anything except an Indian, if he gets in.
But every other point you make is spot-on. And I hadn’t even considered the Latin American angle of it.
My 2009 New Years Resolution: Quit feeding the trolls.
MINF =
Mom I’d Never… ?
"But the major difference is where Showalter tried to overthink everything Washington at times seems like he isn't thinking at all. " - rentz
Which leads to the question
what does a MINF instructor teach?
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plan
This was probably part of their plan. They will have to over pay to get him though.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Depends on how you define "overpay."
Arizona signed Felipe Lopez to a 1yr, $3.5MM deal, and that sounds right at about market value for Vizquel.
My 2009 New Years Resolution: Quit feeding the trolls.
Padrres where not offer much more than 1 M in base salary
and went for Eickstein for 850K instead.
I think they can get him for 1.5M
Not so sure.
There’s strong evidence that both, while good, were pretty overrated, for starters (Alomar more so than Vizquel). They also weren’t together that long.
Off the top of my head, though, I’m not sure who else to pick. Trying to think of any great second basemen who were ever paired with Ozzie Smith or Mark Belanger.
well.......
…..if you’re talking about defense, then it would most definitely be Smith to Herr to Hernandez.
“Jack the Ripper” wasn’t in Keith Hernandez’s league with the glove. Not many 1st baseman were or are.
Defensively?
Or overall?
Concepcion/Morgan would have to be up there.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 17, 2009 12:00 AM CST up reply actions
"he's still a terrific glove man"
Adam. do the stats back this up?
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
his UZR +/- was 13.8 last year and over 20 in 07
so i guess so
the preceding post was a great success.
I don't even know how the number is derrived
but +14 would be 14 runs saved from a normal defensive ss, -5 would be costing the team 5 runs defensively obviously and it seems to be the popular defensive stat lately.
maybe i should look that up just so i know, heh.
the preceding post was a great success.
18 run difference
is not insignificant. Odds are MY will be better at 3B than what they ran out there last year. Same for Davis at 1B. How many wins will an improved IF defense equal?
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Well, Texas was about 25-30 runs below average at third base last season
If you figure Young can at least be average there in his first full season, and if you figure that Omar is still a +10 defender, give or take a run or two, then you’re talking about a defensive improvement of around 40 runs from the left side of your infield, or about four wins.
Of course, you’re also losing offense in the process, so it’s not really a four-win improvement.
by Joey Matschulat on Jan 17, 2009 12:16 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, as far as the offense. . .
. . . if MY reproduces the same level, I do think it’s a stretch to expect Vizquel to reproduce Vazquez et. al.
But the offense calculation you did before was based on Metcalf playing a full season
Let’s say that Vizquel/Andrus combo is somewhere between 5-10 runs worse than Metcalf over the entire season offensively, that net improvement is still 30 runs. A 3-win move on the FA market is worth well over $10 million, this sounds pretty good to me (unless of course Face’s feeling is worth $10 million). We expected about 75 wins before, which should now go to 78 wins.
All this is still based on very conservative projections
Well, I was speaking compared to last year
Rangers third basemen hit a very respectable .281/.339/.469 last season, so assuming for the sake of argument that Young’s numbers remain static, there’s a pretty big disparity between that line and what Andrus/Vizquel are probably going to put up.
by Joey Matschulat on Jan 17, 2009 12:49 AM CST up reply actions
The offense will suffer a bit from this
but the defensive gain makes up for it. Plus you never know what kind of other positive effects the improved defense has. SP have to throw less pitches, bullpen is less exhausted, etc.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Depends.
Anyone feel like posting the +/- per 600 PA from our infielder last year?
I could do it if I re-up my BJO subscription.
Guess you could just do UZR, too.
But, obviously, every 10 runs we improve from last year is about a win.
My Bill James Online subscription ran out today.
So I can’t look up his +/- at the moment, but I know he was really awesome in ‘09, and I’m pretty sure he was good each of the last three years, as well.
Yes
He was 9th in Dewan’s +/- at a +9 in only 650 innings. So he would be looking at around +17 at 1200 innings which would be top 5 in baseball.
The only man cam stil go out and get it.
RZR/OOZ
2004: .823/52
2005: .856/43
2006: .869/36
2007: .886/47
2008: .868/25
Less useful than UZR or +/-, and it underrates him a little, I think, but still very good.
Dave Pinto's
probabilistic model of range had Vizquel as the 2nd best SS in 2008.
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Amazing.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
Perfect
In the words of Hannibal Smith, I love it when a plan comes together.
The only downside is, I can see Ron Washington getting overly attached to Vizquel extremely quickly, but that shouldn’t get in the way of Andrus’ playing time when the Org. decides he’s ready (you would hope, anyway).
That Gold Glove for Young was the worst thing that could have happened to Texas - now the guy really believes he's good at short. - Keith Law
JD needs to step in...
if Wash falls in love with some vet like Vizquel when a young player is ready.
I think it’s pretty clear what direction this team is headed in and what a move like this would mean. I know some don’t give Wash a lot of credit, but he has to at least understand that. If he doesn’t them I’ll hop aboard your fire Wash bandwagon.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Can't say I like the idea as much as the other replies
Hes not just a veteran, hes 41. Who had .551 ops last year. .551… seriously.
I hope this is more of a mentor to andrus who can play if andrus really struggles, not as the opening day starter while Andrus waits 3 months. MY isnt going to say anything public against omar vizquel, but im sure he knows he isnt much of an overall player anymore.
the preceding post was a great success.
This would be defensive
and a mentor move. Andrus and Vizquel are both Venezuelan and Andrus can probably learn more from vizquel than MY, especially in regards to defense. Also, if keeping andrus in AAA for a month gives us another year of service I’m all for it.
And, imagine Andrus replacing a hitter with a .550 OPS. There would be much less pressure for him to perform at the plate.
I think it would be a nice move
Wait 'til the year after next
Lets not forget to that last year Vizquek was coming back from a knee injury
his home numbers where infinitely better than his away stats. James, Choan and Marcel projections are all expecting a rebuild in the .620 OPS range, or about equal to what was expcted from Metcalf next year
Value
according to the fangraphs math, the guy was worth -22 runs offensively in less than hal af season. +5 runs defensive (the 14 was a full season).
I’m fine with sacrificing offense for defense if its a young kid with a long future here who has the potential to become a decent offensive player as well. And brings a speed game. The bottom line on vizquel is that he is a well below average player at this point.
Who else? Well I dont imagine Cabrera would come here to be displaced in a couple months on a 1 year deal. But Im not the one who decided andrus was ready or almost ready and moved young this year instead of the previously assumed next year. If we are going to go with Andrus for much of the season, Id just as well it be on opening day.
If andrus does well enough that he never gets sent back down and never loses enough MLB time to get that final year of control, well I imagine things went pretty well. You can always give him an extension after a couple years like with kinsler, who we didnt worry about waiting a couple months.
the preceding post was a great success.
Also:
I assume by this line of thinking, what you’re worrying about is that Vizquel will cost too much money and a 40 spot?
look
Im not saying it would be an awful deal that I would complain about for months and is going to derail the rangers.
I just don’t think its anything to get excited about or some kind of really smart pickup.
and I mentioned the FA clock in that post.
the preceding post was a great success.
I don't think people are excited because they think it's going to make the Rangers much better or anything.
I think it just makes a whole lot of logical sense and there’s not much else going on at midnight on a January evening in the Rangers world.
His offensive numbers might be hepled somewhat by the transition from SF's pitcher's haven to our bandbox.
But, like you alluded to there at the end, this move would be all about Elvis.
It gives you a nice vet to deflect some pressure from the kid having to be ready right out of the gate, and gives you a whole ’nother year of team control on the back end.
Plus Vizquel would be a pretty kickass mentor, I’d assume.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 17, 2009 12:44 AM CST up reply actions
What makes you certain Andrus will be ready on opening day?
And why would you not want to hold off his FA clock?
Free Agent
That’s a good point. How many games does that take?
I’m fine with getting another SS. Not that thrilled about watching Vizquel at SS for more than 45 games in 2009. So, if Elvis doesn’t make the team, I’d prefer watching someone else.
Like who?
Cabrera? Think they’d open up the check book for him? Think it’d be easy to sign him knowing at some point you might be trying to give Andrus playing time?
Arias?
What about another prospect, like Arias?
Maybe he’d have a decent few months and we could trade him?
I think the organization is like most of the people here:
There is no reason to want to see Arias at short. Might as well have left MY there.
Vizquel is more likely to have a few decent months than Arias. What is your problem with Vizquel?
SS
Vizquel is fine. But, since playing for post-2009 anyway. What’s the downside of using a cheap rookie who may become trade-able?
Save some $$$. Maybe get lucky and find some trade bait?
I'm not sure Vizquel is going to cost much.
If he costs anything we can’t get by with, I might agree with you. Otherwise, I can’t think of anyone in the organization I’d rather play at shortstop. We don’t have a lot of good fielders sitting around.
At this point
Arias isn’t really any more of a prospect than Metcalf. And he has about the same amount of trade value as Metcalf, which isn’t much.
Up until now, I thought Arias might turn out to be the opening day SS myself, if going after Vizquel is any indication, it would seem the Rangers either weren’t impressed with what they saw from him last Sept., or it’s become clear his arm isn’t going to come back. Or both.
That Gold Glove for Young was the worst thing that could have happened to Texas - now the guy really believes he's good at short. - Keith Law
Arias
Arias has been a disappointment. Can he not be salvaged at all now?
I just sorta think, since we’ve already sold M-Y on the big picture, we use Arias for the Elvis gap we need. Maybe kill two birds with one stone?
Plus, he’s cheap?
It sounds like his arm is shot
there is no need to keep a GG 2B defensive replacement/ pinch runner on the 40 man.
I expect Arias to be dealt or released. If his am was OK, this deal would have never been done.
It speaks volumes about Arias' future as a SS
that the rangers don’t think he can play the position for a few months and have to go out and get a 42 yo to do so. Arias is done at SS. It also suggests that they don’t really want Duran playing the position either. He played SS before but that was 2 years ago. I guess that also means that as long as duran is on the bench they will need a utility shortstop as well which takes up another roster spot, a spot that has typically gone to an extra pitcher.
yep
if he can’t play 3B or SS there’s really no point.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jan 17, 2009 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
I just wish we knew what the hell happened
I was never sold on his bat, but seeing his arm go to hell when he was supposed to just miss a few weeks in ST and now can’t even be useful as an all-glove/no bat guy.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Duran at SS
For a game or two to give Andus a day off is OK. But for two weeks if Andrus were to go on the DL they would call up a SS.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
I like this.
Now if we somehow sign ben sheets I will be buying JD roses and kissing his feet, or sucking his toes, whatever.
You dick that was uncalled for - male cheerleader
This.
I’d cry tears of blood if this went down.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 17, 2009 12:10 AM CST up reply actions
stigmata
you might become some sort of tourist attraction if a couple of your wishes came true. OTOH, if you’re fears come true you’ll be arrested for punting babies and such. You’re future will be quite interesting either way.
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position players
Here is the projected 13 position players if they sign Vizquel. It would really be
nice if they could move Cat and let Duran be a backup IF and 5th OFer.
OF Hamilton, Cruz, Byrd, Murphy
1B Davis
2B Kinsler
SS Andrus
3B Young
C Salty
DH Blalock
C TT
IF Vizquel
OF/1B Cat
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Yeah
Arias will probably be the utility guy
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
he couldnt even make throws from
second late in the season so I doubt this would be the case; more likely they release him when they add someone to the 40 or keep him in AAA to see if his arm is shot or not. I would think that Duran will be on the bench and be the emergency short with MY/Vizquel not getting much time off the first 2 months until andrus is ready.
Like I said below
Our “utility” guy will be a glorified water boy basically. Kinsler isn’t going to be taken out for any reason in a game. Young doesn’t come out of games. And Vizquel would probably only be pinch hit for late in games so you would risk putting Arias there in that case.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
You are missing a huge aspect of the utility player's game
What about injuries? Kinsler and Young had injuries last year and Vizquel is in his 40s. Are you willing to risk the game by putting a guy who physically cannot play the position over a guy who can?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Yup, injuries are a huge part of it, and I'd trust Vizquel to back up 2nd, Short, or 3rd and do a damn good job defensively.
Plus it might be a good idea to have someone around to give Andrus a day off now and then, especially against some of the more beastly RHP the league has to offer.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 18, 2009 5:03 AM CST up reply actions
injuries
Depends what kind of injuries you are talking about. Are you talking about ones that land a guy on the 15 day DL? The 60 day DL? Or just ones that keep a guy out a day here or there? Because if its an injury that lands a guy on the DL we have guys in OKC with options we can call up if that presents itself. And neither Young or Kinsler have a history of those little injuries that keep them out a day at a time. Kinsler has always gone down for extended periods while Young has refused to miss games due to injuries.
I think if we didn’t have the resources in OKC that we do then we may need a more versatile utility guy who we are confident in for extended periods. Vazquez the last few years has been great because we didn’t have those upper level minors guys . Even last year we rushed Duran. But now we have Duran and Metcalf in case of serious injury
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I'm talking about the day-day injuries
The 08 Milton Bradley type of injuries. These are ones that can happen at any time and I think it should be obvious how useful having a true IF utility player on the roster is after seeing Young play through finger injuries each day and Kinsler having yet to play a full season. While Kinsler never really suffered from many day-day injuries, he did end up needing to leave in the middle of games as well as need an extra bit of time to get back into his groove when he would come back from the DL.
I don’t see why you want Duran in the minors but want Arias up to back-up the positions. If Arias can’t throw still, I wouldn’t care if he the team DFA’d him.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Duran
I feel his value to this organization would be best served in the minors playing everyday. Arias has little to no value to us. He isn’t good enough to be a starter and he won’t bring back anything of value in trade. Duran could most likely as a piece of a package deal. Playing sparingly at most as our utility IF isn’t going to increase his value and most likely will only decrease it even more than last year did. Playing everyday in OKC and being able to put up some good numbers may help us out.
As for the day to day stuff as I said neither Young or Kinsler have a history of being “Bradley-esque” and taking days off here or there. Kinsler has a history of being injured sure but those were all serious enough they landed him on the DL where you can make a roster move. I just feel between Arias and Cat we can handle a game or two if it comes to that or more likely an inning or two before making a roster move.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Why trade Duran?
I don’t think you can get much for him at this point. He doesn’t really have much hype around him anymore and projects to be a utility player. He might hit well in Oklahoma, but even if he matches his 2007 numbers, he still wouldn’t be valued that highly anymore. You would end up throwing him into some deal where he has little value in it. I would rather just keep him in the Majors, have him as a safety net and a precaution for any injuries, and win some more games.
Cat and Arias are wastes of a roster spot at this point since Arias is the only that can play some defense and that is only at 2B where he doesn’t have to use him arm. Neither hits well either. There is no reason they should be thought of as utility players.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Duran
Id rather have Cat sitting on the bench playing once every two weeks rather than Duran. Our utility IF is going to be very very rarely used. And with those 4 OFers we will very rarely need a 5th OF. If injuries go down we have guys in OKC with options we can call up. Let Duran play everyday in AAA if for nothing else to keep his trade value up in case he needs to be included in a package for someone.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome, awesome.
I love you, JD.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
The Age of Innocence
So, we moved OUR Gold Glove SS to 3rd because he’s long in the tooth at 33. Replaced him with a 20 year old. Not a bad move.
Now we’re signing a 42 year old to occasionally replace the 20 year old?
Okee-Dokee.
Are you really having difficulty with this?
Seems kind’ve obvious. And exceedingly logical.
It starts with the fact that MY is bad defensively, and the Gold Glove is just a title.
No offense
But that’s a pretty stupid way of looking at things.
We moved Young off short because he’s not very good there anymore, and because the Rangers didn’t want Andrus to be blocked in 2009, be it on opening day or sometime in midseason. The question then became how ready Andrus – the signing of Vizquel is simply an insurance/stopgap measure until the answer to that question is yes.
That Gold Glove for Young was the worst thing that could have happened to Texas - now the guy really believes he's good at short. - Keith Law
You should want to offend him.
He offended me with his stupid shit.
by brettgardner on Jan 17, 2009 12:23 AM CST up reply actions
SS
My plan has been clear: Since we’re not winning-it-all in 2009, let Elvis have a killer Spring and start or work things out in AAA. Young to SS until he’s ready. What’s so hard about that?
I don’t care who backs-up Elvis, I just thought the idea was, Elvis was the new SS.
because if you start young at SS
he’s not going to be getting reps at third. that needs to happen sooner rather than later.
and young/metcalf is probably worse than vizquel/young overall anyway
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
Why would you want to make MY move positions mid-season?
How is that better than going ahead and giving him the off-season to prepare for a new position?
That circus we just had this week.
You want that in the middle of the season? No, thanks
Mentioned above, but I thought I'd post it here.
Vizquel’s CHONE aint that bad at all. .278 wOBA is better than I was expecting.
Does this automatially make Vizquel the best
Middle Infielder in Team History?
Just curious if anyone can come up with a Ranger that is going to flash the glove Vizquel will.
Matt Kata.
"Nobody knows how to feel right now. It’s like Jesus came down from heaven and shot Santa Claus." --ghtd36
Michael Young.
That Gold Glove for Young was the worst thing that could have happened to Texas - now the guy really believes he's good at short. - Keith Law
JHJ.
"Nobody knows how to feel right now. It’s like Jesus came down from heaven and shot Santa Claus." --ghtd36
Marcus Lemon.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
I wish I could sort TotalZone by team.
That would make this easier to look up.
At his age, I’m not willing to guarantee he’ll bet he best we’ve ever had. I’m going to glance around at some names and post their best seasons by TZ.
Toby Harrah's best season was 5 runs above average.
1978. Was he a Ranger then? I think so.
One of the rare years he was above average.
Bump Wills
1977: 14
1978: 12
1979: 11
1981: 5
He would appear to be the best competition for Vizquel that I can find. But even without a full season, I don’t think Vizquel will have much trouble turning in the best fielding season we’ve ever had from a shortstop.
. . . at 42. . .
That was what I was thinking as well
I was just trying to think of some one that the angry average fan could relate to when I try to explain that the Omar Vizquel pickup is a good idea
Wasn't ARod pretty good his first year or two?
And what about guys like Manny Lee?
How about Royce Clayton?
Seems like we’d have had one or two pretty good defensive SS’s in here at some point for at least a season, doesn’t it?
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 17, 2009 12:47 AM CST up reply actions
TotalZone numbers for those guys in Arlington
Clayton
2000: -7
Rodriguez
2001: -13
2002: 2
2003: 3
Lee
1993: 4
1994: -5
Jeez. We've had a pretty sorry run of defense at SS.
I knew it was pretty bad, but I thought we’d gotten something better than that over the years.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 17, 2009 2:54 AM CST up reply actions
Kevin Elster???
He covered that 20 ft wide zone pretty solidly.
Just saw this over on BBTiA
Joey’s got it up in the comments section of his newsflash: according to Ken Rosenthal, Elvis is still supposed to be the starter.
Andrus, 20, will be the Rangers’ starting shortstop in 2009, with Michael Young, the Gold Glove winner at the position last season, moving to third base.
Vizquel, 41, would serve in a utility role. Andrus, who has yet to play above Double-A, would get the vast majority of playing time as long as he proved capable of holding the job, sources say.
That Gold Glove for Young was the worst thing that could have happened to Texas - now the guy really believes he's good at short. - Keith Law
Sounds like Arias is about to moved or waived
There is no need to keep a GG 2B with no stick. If Arias could make the throw from the hole in SS there would be no reason to make a Vizquel deal.
At this point thats what I'd like to see.
Try to make the transition easy on Andrus with a veteran to back him up and give advice to him, and for the rangers provide an option that you couldnt get midseason if Andrus just has to go down.
If thats the plan, I do like it.
the preceding post was a great success.
I hope that's not true. If they don't Longoria this kid I'm gonna be pissed.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 17, 2009 12:48 AM CST up reply actions
But what is the team supposed to say?
If they go ahead and say that they are bringing in Vizquel to keep the clock of Anrdus from starting you are looking at an instant grievance from the players association
At the end of ST the team will say that they are impressed with Andrus maturity but feel like he needs a few more AAA AB’s to iron out a few things…
Magically it will be long enough to delay his FA clock…
Still Say
I still say that Im not worried about Andrus’ FA clock
Im not going to worry about a player becoming a FA in 6/7 years. Not to mention it is always a possibility that we sign him to an extension like Kinsler.
If Andrus is ready he should play. Vizquel is old as dirt. He will suck imo…period
If we'd waited a few weeks into '03 to bring up Tex, we'd have had him another year, or would've been able to get a better deal for him when we dealt him cause of the extra year of team control.
Bringing a guy up to start the season instead of waiting a month is myopic.
Things like that matter in the long run, imo.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 17, 2009 5:14 AM CST up reply actions
Yep
I have a hard time believing they won’t go the Longoria route.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
Nothing really satisfies you
The Tex trade could have been better? What, you wanted Hanson thrown into that deal too?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Well it stands to reason we would've gotten a little more if we were offering a little more Tex, right? I mean, he would've been more valuable at the time of the deal, so I can only assume we would've gotten more value back.
Though in actuality I think we just wouldn’t have been looking to move him yet, but, who knows?
Maybe we could’ve turned Harrison into Hanson or added someone better than Jones as the throw-in.
Or maybe the Dodgers would’ve upped their offer.
Or perhaps the Angels would’ve gotten involved more heavily.
I don’t know.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 17, 2009 5:22 PM CST up reply actions
If we're confining ourselves to this universe
and not one with a bizarro John Schuerholz who doesn’t even recognize his own good players, there is no way around the fact that changing from Harrison to Hanson costs you Feliz. Neither franchise was in love with Harrison at the time, and both knew that Hanson had a much higher upside. Feliz was a compromise who turned out great, but you just weren’t getting both Hanson and Feliz…and Saltalamacchia and Andrus. Period. Remember, they wouldn’t even change Salty to Schafer.
by Brett Perryman on Jan 18, 2009 5:19 AM CST up reply actions
Yah, fine, I guess.
I disagree with some of your points, but that’s not the issue.
The issue is that Teixeira would’ve been a more valuable asset at the time we traded him if he’d had 2+ years of team control and not 1+.
I don’t see how anyone could argue that.
Now, as to whether we could’ve gotten a better deal out of anyone than we got out of Atlanta… that’s debatable. We made out like naked bandits running through the woods at night in that deal.
Yee + Haw.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 18, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions
I didn't disagree with that point
Presumably he would have been more valuable.
But as you mentioned, the increased price probably would have had to have come from a different team. Going from Harrison to Hanson just completely changes that deal, even back then. And if you don’t believe that, look at my comments back then. And if you think they were off base, look at what’s happened since.
by Brett Perryman on Jan 18, 2009 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
I know it would've completely changed the deal. I honestly don't know how that deal could've gotten better without delving into the ridiculous, like adding Hanson in somewhere. I was just throwing out shit off the top of my head.
And I know all about Hanson, thanks.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 18, 2009 5:54 PM CST up reply actions
An extension
You realize Kinslers extension only goes guaranteed into one free agent year with an option for the second free agent year right? This isn’t a long term deal that signs him until hes 36 or so. The way players are doing things these days they sign extensions usually taking up one free agency year. Thats all. So if delaying their free agency by a full year by keeping them in the minors for a mere month or so then you do it and don’t look back.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Simple
My issue is simple. Does Andrus give us a better chance to win now and in the future? If the answer is yes then he should play imo.
Looking 6 and 7 years down the road and ignoring the present is simply trying too hard.
I dont have a big problem with it but i just dont feel it is really necessary at the end of the day.
Andrus
Does keeping Andrus down in AAA for a month in 2009 keep us from the playoffs in 2009? I highly highly doubt it. So if doing so keeps him here and extra year when he will be 27 years old and can really help us then you do it. I really don’t know why people are arguing this. All it takes is a few weeks in AAA to guarantee us a full extra year of his services. GUARANTEES us an extra year.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
OT: It's late and sleep is nowhere in sight, so I'm heading to the gym.
It’s open 24 hours, but I’ve never been this late.
Will I get jumped in the parking lot?
Molested in the locker room?
Will I have to fake an ankle injury if some black guys ask me if I want to play basketball?
The possibilities are as endless as they are exciting!!!
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
Heh
See, if you where Miles, you wouldn’t have to worry about those kinds of problems.
That Gold Glove for Young was the worst thing that could have happened to Texas - now the guy really believes he's good at short. - Keith Law
I can't wait until Miles and I get to do our celebrity MMA match in the parking lot at the first annual LSB night.
He’s promised to fight me.
I’ve promised pain.
All proceeds go to buying bulk shipments of Jon Daniels bobbleheads for Josey!
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 17, 2009 2:53 AM CST up reply actions
You say I'm not representin'
Tell him your mother fucking set fool….
You’re from Denton, once anyone hears that they go runnin’
Belie’dat.
Freddie King rules faces.
Come on bra
I thought you knew better…
D-town it….you’ll never lose ’tron.
Freddie King rules faces.
Ha, you're right. What was I thinking?
Oh, well.
It wasn’t as awesomely dangerous as I had imagined. The whole place was empty except for me, the guy working the front desk, and one fat chick who literally sat on a recumbent bike (not pedaling, I mean) and texted the whole time. She didn’t move once. And I was there well over an hour. It’s like she was thinking to herself, “It’s 2AM and I feel like sitting on my fat ass and texting, but not from home. Maybe I’ll go to the gym and sit there and text. Yah, that sounds like a plan!”
I honestly don’t understand humans.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 17, 2009 2:50 AM CST up reply actions
rethumbent bike
If she has friends, and they were awake, why is she in the gym and not hanging out with them?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Like that old pager commercial
where the guy kept paging himself because he liked the vibration
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
I want a pager so bad.
Do they still make ’em?
How awesome would it be to be out with your friends and just bust out a pager and be like, “Hey, is there a phone around here I can use, my girl just beeped me.”
I want a pager or a Zack Morris cell phone.
I’m gonna get one for the awesome value, I just haven’t decided which.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 17, 2009 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
Zack Morris cell phone
Busting that out in public like it ain’t no thang, would be hilarious.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
if you broke out the Zack Morris cell phone
wearing Zach Morris white, high top Kaepa/Reeboks noone would toy with you.
Freddie King rules faces.
How this move impacts Josey Wales
I believe this is a ploy to get out from under Young’s contract. By making it public (opinions are mixed on who made it public) that Young wouldn’t be a team player and adhere to management’s request to move, it softens the blow if a fan favorite is traded.
I’d buy it if they signed Vizquel / Cabrera for a year and they weren’t in absolute desperation to clear some payroll to fix their pitching staff.
By saying "We want to get all our championship caliber players lined up and on the field together" I get a whiff of JD bullshit when it’s very clear that Andrus is not ready for the bigs.
Heh.
He never said that, period.
I don’t care if it’s capped at the National Archives, and 1 million people read it…he will refute ever saying that.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
I dunno
I think I’ve been the only person mildly opposed to bringing in Omar. The three benefits are that he can keep Andrus’ FA clock from starting, he will probably/possibly provide a little better D and the utility role will be nice too. The utility role/defensive replacement might be the biggest.
Negatives: taking both Andrus and Omar onto the 40 means one person gets kicked off, I think Andrus should offer more offensively with his speed, and there’s the incremental cost of Omar.
Who gets moved from the 40 (unless I’m wrong on that point)?
I guess here’s the other concern – Wash. Is he really going to roll with the 20 year old or is he going to waste away on the bench all season? I can absolutely see Wash not giving Andrus the playing time he needs to be ready for 2010.
I need to think something lasts forever, and it might as well be that state of being that is a game; it might as well be that, in a green field, in the sun.
Metcalf or Arias
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
yes those two
what’s the concern here WYO?
Re: Wash & playing time
That’s just silly, Wyo…Andrus will get 90%+ of the playing time, as soon as they commit to him.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Sosa? Benny B?
Wash loves veteran leadership to a fault.
I need to think something lasts forever, and it might as well be that state of being that is a game; it might as well be that, in a green field, in the sun.
Not when he has a guy as
high talent/profile behind him. WTH did Ben keep out of the lineup? As soon as Davis was deemed ready, Ben was shown the door.
Besides, JD wouldn’t let it happen.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
I don't think it will be Wash's call.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
I like to think that
But JD isn’t filling out the lineup cards.
I need to think something lasts forever, and it might as well be that state of being that is a game; it might as well be that, in a green field, in the sun.
Yep
That guy that started Gerald Laird in 8 of the final 11 games last year does.
That Gold Glove for Young was the worst thing that could have happened to Texas - now the guy really believes he's good at short. - Keith Law
JD was trying to keep the value up.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
Everything is relative
There is a threshold for what is Washington’s call and what is the front office’s. Which catcher to play feel sort of in that middle ground. Whether to play an Andrus regularly versus a 40-something year old does not.
by Brett Perryman on Jan 18, 2009 5:22 AM CST up reply actions
zywica
do you think the decision to have Andrus playing in the bigs, as opposed to AAA, next season is best for his development?
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
From the start of the season?
Absolutely not. I’ve said for some time now that Andrus would be added to my lineup on about April 16 of 2010 (assuming that he has a nice season in AAA). If he really plays well in AAA, call him up in July or early August.
by Brett Perryman on Jan 18, 2009 5:07 PM CST up reply actions
Totally different situations.
Like some said above, this is much more like the Chris Davis situation than the Sosa/Broussard fiascos.
When a young super stud is brought up, he’s gonna play.
Believe that.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 17, 2009 5:24 PM CST up reply actions
Question
I agree with that…but the question is will they bring him up at all.
I just have no interest in Vizquel…he is a bad player at this point with no future
Vizquel's future is not the argument here
Andrus is the future, Vizquel just provides the opportunity for Andrus to develop a little more in AAA and be called up when he is already playing well (hopefully)
Next Year! We Swear!
He's a bad hitter
but will do quite well defensively and therefore not kill you, particularly if you’re talking about a 4-8 week situation. It’s just a combination of the fact that having no alternative for Andrus in the spring is a bad situation, and that your other options are so bad at this point.
by Brett Perryman on Jan 18, 2009 5:09 PM CST up reply actions
Vizquel...
is the perfect defensive mentor for Arias.
Sign him. Start him 2 months at SS. Dump Arias. Utility guy the rest of the year.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Well...
I doubt I was the first to suggest this, but I have certainly been on board with bringing in Vizquel since the whole MY to 3rd thing first went down. At first I didn’t think it would happen because I thought SD had their eyes set on him. When they turned to Eckstein instead I was very happy. It just makes sense, and needs to get done.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Reevo really likes this idea:
Insurance is Sweet
Great move by the Rangers to begin negotiations with slick-fielding Omar Vizquel as a utility infielder.
Vizquel can provide them with an insurance policy should things not work out with Elvis Andrus at short this spring. And he can also be another veteran mentor for the rookie — their hometowns in Venezuela are less than 40 miles apart — who will need all the help he can get.
Almost as importantly, it would mean the Rangers don’t have to worry about having to ask Michael Young to move back to short from third should the Andrus project fail.
This is a deal the Rangers need to push through ASAP.
—JIM REEVES
http://startelegramsports.typepad.com/foul_territory/2009/01/insurance-is-sweet.html
"No... JD has been exposed as a kid who trades his remote-controlled helicopters for paper airplanes, then fails to consider the feelings of the paper airplane when he refolded it into a hat." -Telegraph.
So I'm guessing he thinks
JD should go up to Omar and ask him “Pretty please please please please sign with us” instead of just saying “Sign the damn contract Omar.”
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jan 17, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
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