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Ryan Howard, Garrett Atkins, and inflationary arbitration requests

One of the interesting things about the financial climate in baseball is that arbitration rulings -- and requests -- seem to trail the market by a year or two.

For example -- Ryan Howard is asking for $18 million in arbitration.  Garrett Atkins is asking for $7.95 million in arbitration.

Ryan Howard had a .289 EQA last season, a .311 EQA in 2007, and a .337 EQA in 2006.  He's a below average defensive first baseman who is 29 years old.

Adam Dunn is also a 29 year old below average defensive first baseman (in fact, he was born exactly 10 days before Howard).  Dunn had a .299 EQA last season, a .304 EQA in 2007, and a .283 EQA in 2006.  Dunn had a .309 and .316 EQA the two seasons before that, but 2006 was Howard's first full season in the majors, so we can't really compare Dunn's seasons then to Howard's.

CHONE and Bill James project a .409 and .410 wOBA, respectively, for Howard in 2009, and a .373 and .396 wOBA for Dunn.

Dunn can also play a bad left field, along with playing a bad first base, for what that's worth.

Dunn is also a free agent, unlike Howard.  Dunn can market himself to any team, and any team can sign him and pay him whatever they want to pay him, without regard to putting on a case for an arbitrator.  And he's still unsigned, with one agent saying he won't get more than $5 million for one year, although Ken Rosenthal thinks Dunn could maybe get 2 years at $20-24 million.

Regardless, Dunn isn't going to come close to the $18 million for one year Howard is asking for, or even the $14 million the Phillies are offering, despite the fact that they are almost the same player (even down to the huge strikeout numbers).  The market has spoken, and it has decided Dunn isn't worth the big bucks.

Is there any reason to believe the market would treat Ryan Howard any differently?  If the Phillies had simply non-tendered Howard, would Howard get $18 million a year for 2009?  Would he get an annual salary twice what Pat Burrell (2 years, $16 million) got from the Rays?

Not likely.  If Howard is a free agent right now, he probably gets a better deal than what Dunn is going to get, and than Burrell, but not much more.  He's not getting Mark Teixeira money.  He's probably getting $12 million on a one year deal, or something like the 3 year, $30 million deal Milton Bradley got from the Cubs.

So arbitration, for the Phillies, has become a double-edged sword, a situation where they are going to end up paying their player, who they control through 2011, more than he'd get on the open market, despite the fact that the owners have this arbitration system in place in an effort to artificially depress salaries.

Another example?  Look at Garrett Atkins of the Rockies.  Bad defensive third baseman coming off a mediocre year with the bat.  He's 29 (born a month after Howard and Dunn), with a .262 EQA in 2008, a .280 EQA in 2007, and a .309 EQA in 2006.

Compare him to Ty Wigginton, who is 31, a bad defensive third baseman, and had a .291 EQA last year, a .275 EQA in 2007, and a .280 EQA in 2006. 

CHONE and James both have Atkins projected at a .364 wOBA in 2009, compared to .351 and .347 for Wigginton.  The two guys are, again, basically the same player (except Wigginton is probably a better defender than Atkins).

Wigginton, like Dunn, wants a multi-year deal, but will probably end up with a one year deal making little, if any, more than the $4.35 million he made with the Astros last year.  Atkins, if he loses in arbitration, will get $6.65 million -- almost certainly more than Wigginton will make in 2009.

I don't have any pithy commentary or anything to go with this.  The Phillies and Rockies may have made bad decisions in offering arbitration to Howard and Atkins, and if Howard wins his case, he's almost certainly looking at a $20 million or more salary for 2010, which could well lead to him being non-tendered next offseason if he doesn't return to his 2006 form.

But I wouldn't be surprised if next offseason, we saw a barrage of Atkins-types, in particular (possibly including Atkins himself, who is arbitration-eligible after 2009), non-tendered, as teams compare arbitration salaries this offseason to what the free agents get.

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Interesting

Once again it strikes me how perfectly the Rangers managed to time their farm peak against a major economic downturn.

The moves being made are too extra for my taste.

by shroomer on Jan 21, 2009 10:29 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Fake bulletin...

…Texas Rangers general manager Jon Daniels has been indicted on insider trading charges…

My 2009 New Years Resolution: Quit feeding the trolls.

by ghtd36 on Jan 21, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Am I missing something,

or are the Phillies a slam dunk to “win” the hearing. With their $14 million offer, it might be a pyrrhic victory, but I just don’t see them losing this one.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Jan 21, 2009 10:30 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

John and Lance were talking about that this morning...

…with Lance proclaiming that it was a slam-dunk for Howard, because, well, look at all those RBIs!

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 21, 2009 10:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sigh

What station are those clowns on now? I switched to ESPN and buttonpunching because Mark and Andre were so terrible.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Jan 21, 2009 10:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

1560

I actually like John and Lance, generally. They are just pretty clueless about baseball. But they are worlds better than Mark and Andre.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 21, 2009 10:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah,

at least they are entertaining. I might add it in to the button punch rotation.

Mark and Andre are just boring Vanilla death. I switched to Mike and Mike, not because I’m a huge fan, at least they are better than that Mark and Andre mess. They basicly spout every cheesedick sports cliche.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Jan 21, 2009 10:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But I wouldn’t be surprised if next offseason, we saw a barrage of Atkins-types, in particular (possibly including Atkins himself, who is arbitration-eligible after 2009), non-tendered, as teams compare arbitration salaries this offseason to what the free agents get.

We started seeing it to some extent this year with guys like Wiggington getting NTed. I think a smart team has to weigh the risks when cutting such a player loose. If they are then able to an appropriate substitute on the open market, then yes, it makes sense. But what if there are only two or three feasible substitutes out there and those players sign elsewhere? NTing a player like Atkins and then signing a player like Wiggington at half the cost is great in theory, but if they miss out on Wiggy, then they are using internal scrubs (like Metcalf) or taking chances on less talented or more injury prone players (like Crede). There is some price associated with certainty.

by clark on Jan 21, 2009 11:09 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

also

wouldn’t arb stats begin to adjust to reflect the open market, just like they rose to reflect the open market in years past?

by clark on Jan 21, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What do arbitrators look at?

Do they look at the unique stats like you threw out there Adam or do they go with the more simpler stats like simply HR, RBI, OPS, etc

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Jan 21, 2009 11:09 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

So ideally the Phillies

should have non-tendered Howard and signed Dunn this year? Makes sense, but the talking heads would have shredded Philly for that.

It is interesting how the arbitration process basically assumes that salaries are a monotonically increasing function – after your 1st arbitration year, salaries generally increase by roughly 50% in years 2 and 3.

Here’s the question – if free agency remains depressed for the next few years, will we see more or fewer long-term deals for pre-arbitration guys? I’d guess so, with arbitration being too risky for teams and the alternative of being non-tendered and floating on the open market being equally discouraging to players. The Evan Longoria model may become more common.

by JBImaknee on Jan 21, 2009 11:10 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I thought it was the Troy Tulowitzki model.

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Jan 21, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Or non-tendered Howard...

…and given Pat Burrell the 2 year, $16 million deal he got from Tampa, and let him play first base. Or put Raul Ibanez (who they overpaid, but whatever) at first base and put Burrell in left field.

Realistically, Philly could have probably gotten something for Howard — maybe something good — so they probably wouldn’t have had to non-tender him.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 21, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Howard puts buts in the seats.

That’s a factor.

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Jan 21, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Howard

untradeable?

"Yeah, like I had a chance there" - Lancaster batter, after striking out against Derek Holland

by chrisR on Jan 21, 2009 11:16 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

You don't really believe this, do you?
If Howard is a free agent right now, he probably gets a better deal than what Dunn is going to get, and than Burrell, but not much more. He’s not getting Mark Teixeira money. He’s probably getting $12 million on a one year deal, or something like the 3 year, $30 million deal Milton Bradley got from the Cubs.

Cause that’s insane.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I hate Michael Young.

"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith

by thedirkatron on Jan 21, 2009 11:18 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I bet the Giants would give him a 100 mil

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Jan 21, 2009 11:22 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Someone would pay him something stupid

like 5 years / 110 million. Because he’s an MVP with huge RBI totals. Its all about perception, not about actual production.

by JBImaknee on Jan 21, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Why wouldn't San Fran?

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Jan 21, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Because San Fran...

…doesn’t have so much money to spend that they’d commit over $20 million per year to a 29 year old first baseman.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 21, 2009 11:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You would have never thought

Renteria would get 2/18 from them..

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Jan 21, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Huge difference

between $18M and $100M.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 21, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Or course,

But teams that are broke don’t spend that money on Renteria. I think if they’re willing to go 1 year with 3 team options on a 37 year old Manny, the money is there.

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Jan 21, 2009 1:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, this.

Us cyber nerds with our calculators and OPS+’s and chain-store haircuts may sit here and say he’s comparable to Adam Dunn, but that’s not reality.

Reality is he’s Ryan Howard, the former MVP. The affable RBI machine who graces video game covers and smiles at me from my TV screen while he tries to get me to buy Subway sandwiches even though I’m pretty sure he knows I hate Subway cause they totally screw you on the meat.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I hate Michael Young.

"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith

by thedirkatron on Jan 21, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

x
Us cyber nerds with our calculators and OPS+’s and chain-store haircuts may sit here and say he’s comparable to Adam Dunn, but that’s not reality.

I think more and more teams are viewing it as reality. Particularly given the market the way it is right now. I don’t think g.m.s are sitting out there saying, “Hey, he had 140+ RBIs last season, so he must be great! Let’s give him $100 million!”

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 21, 2009 11:30 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well fangraphs has his value at 25.7 in '06, 17.1 in '07 and 14.1 in '08, which was presumably a pretty down year for him (that BABIP was freakishly low last year and is gonna come up).

It’s not like he’s some scrub who lucked into some RBI’s.

He’s good.

And he’s a star.

He’d get way more money than Dunn, MOB and Burrell.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I hate Michael Young.

"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith

by thedirkatron on Jan 21, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Depending on which system you like he’s either been mostly bad (with a decent year last year, according to +/-) or about average for the position (according to UZR).

His Fangraphs value depends on average defense; if you believe that system he’s probably a lot better than Dunn or Burrell, who both field with cinder blocks on their hands. If you prefer +/- the situation is a bit less rosy…

"I'd like to f*ck Sandra Bullock." - Pedro Martinez, explaining his secret ambition to Sports Illustrated for Kids.

by OCD SS on Jan 21, 2009 12:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But either way, what do you think of AJM's belief that "Ryan Howard would get about the same kind of deal that Dunn, Burrell and MOB are going to get"?

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I hate Michael Young.

"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith

by thedirkatron on Jan 21, 2009 12:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually..

…I think I said he’d get more than them, since Burrell is getting $8 million per year, and Dunn isn’t going to get close to the $12 million I suggest Howard would get.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 21, 2009 12:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You're insane.

I can only assume this is inflammatory shtick meant to cause some discussion, cause there’s no way a level headed dude like you really believes Ryan Howard would get a 1yr 12mm deal if he had been a FA this year.

It’s just stupid.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I hate Michael Young.

"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith

by thedirkatron on Jan 21, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the Red Sox would be willing to treat him as a test case for Gammons’ theory that the Red Sox are keeping their payroll low so they can acquire big contracts.

If they didn’t have to give up too much for him, I could see them taking him on for his arb years and paying him large 1 year commitments until he hits FA, and then letting him walk for draft picks (if we’re still doing that then) and handing the job to Lars Anderson.

"I'd like to f*ck Sandra Bullock." - Pedro Martinez, explaining his secret ambition to Sports Illustrated for Kids.

by OCD SS on Jan 21, 2009 2:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

At least 100 million.

Maybe not Teixeira money, but pretty darn close.

I mean, one year 12mm?

You do realize that’s ridiculous, right?

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I hate Michael Young.

"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith

by thedirkatron on Jan 21, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No, I don't believe it is

Compare him to Dunn. Or to Pat Burrell. Who out there is going to give him that sort of money?

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 21, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It is. It's fucking ridiculous.

Lots of teams would beat 12mm for a one year deal for Ryan Howard.

I’m not saying he’s that much better than they are in terms of value added, I’m just saying that there’s no freaking way a reasonable person can think he’d get one year, 12mm on the FA market.

He’s a star.

That might not mean that much to us, but it means a lot on the open market.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I hate Michael Young.

"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith

by thedirkatron on Jan 21, 2009 11:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Like who?

List the teams that you think would be willing to give him significantly more than $12 million on a one year deal.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 21, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Angels, Giants, Yankees, Mets, Phillies, White Sox, Braves, Dodgers, Mariners, etc.

Some of those teams would obviously have to make some changes to fit him in (like the Mets might’ve declined Delgado, the Dodgers and Braves would have to deal Kotchman and Loney, respectively, etc.).

But especially the Giants and the Angels would be all over Ryan Howard.

And at the ridiculous price you’re espousing, pretty much every team with room in the budget would be in on him in some regard.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I hate Michael Young.

"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith

by thedirkatron on Jan 21, 2009 11:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Giants would be a candidate

The Angels, maybe.

The Yankees, probably not.

The Mets, probably not.

The White Sox, no.

The Braves, probably not.

The M’s, probably not.

The Dodgers, maybe.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 21, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're thinking to rationally here

Howard very likely will put up another monster numbers year for him (45+ homers, 140+ RBIs). He’ll finish in the top 5 in MVP voting. The Phillies may well make the playoffs again.

If the Phillies non-tender him and he becomes a free agent, he’ll have tons of teams fighting for him. People will look at Howard and see him as a middle-of-the-lineup bat. Of course he’s not nearly as good as Manny was (or even is). He’s a typical power bat who’s not that different from Adam Dunn. But he’s a STAR. He’ll be 30 years old, but he was old when he arrived, so he’s still fresh on our minds. You’d see teams like the Mets, the White Sox, the Cubs, the Giants, or even a wild card like the Braves go after him. Obviously not all of them will, given their 1b situation at that time. But enough will for him to be paid like a monster. Its perception, not reality, that drives free agent contracts.

by JBImaknee on Jan 21, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

this is true

and yes, manny is head and shoulders better than him

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Jan 21, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your take 110%, but...

This is FJM fodder at its best. Ryan Howard puts up massive RBI totals, because he knows the job of a slugger is to drive runs in. Therefore, he’s a star and worth ridiculous sums of money. Adam Dunn, on the other hand, hits for a really low average, draws a bunch of base-clogging, useless walks, and when he gets a hit, it’s usually only a selfish home run. He’s not worth much more than the league minimum.

Keith Law: (1:45 PM ET ) I think Michael Young should shut his mouth and move to third base.

by WestTxAg06 on Jan 21, 2009 11:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yah, it's not about is Ryan Howard that much better at baseball than those guys (though I think he is better than Dunn and Burrell), it's that he's Ryan Howard and is going to get more money.

He’s an affable and very well-liked star.

He’d get paid.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I hate Michael Young.

"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith

by thedirkatron on Jan 21, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

as a note

adam dunn career OPS+: 130
last year: 129
2007: 136

similar batters through age 28:
Darryl Strawberry (920)
Jose Canseco (906)
Harmon Killebrew (902) *
Rocky Colavito (895)
Reggie Jackson (889) *
Troy Glaus (867)
Tom Brunansky (865)
Barry Bonds (861)
Roger Maris (859)
Boog Powell (859)

ryan howard career ops+: 143
ryan howard ops+ last year: 124

ryan howard top 10 comparables through age 28:
Cecil Fielder (908)
Norm Cash (905)
Tony Clark (904)
Mo Vaughn (885)
David Ortiz (883)
Carlos Delgado (880)
Fred McGriff (876)
Ryan Klesko (875)
Richie Sexson (874)
Jason Bay (869)

am i the only one who would rather have dunn over howard the next 2 years, considering that say dunn gets 2 yrs/20 mil and howard gets 2 yrs/~35 mil?

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Jan 21, 2009 11:36 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

No

Adam would too.

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Jan 21, 2009 11:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I really don't want to pay a bunch

for either. After signing Blalock, we are kind of out of room at the all bat/no glove positions.

Had we not signed Blalock, I might have been tempted to lowball Dunn.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Jan 21, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

do you think blalock is better than dunn?

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Jan 21, 2009 11:40 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Blalock is paid for

and we are stuck with his contract, and most likely would have to release him to get Dunn.

I would have rather we didn’t exercise Blalock’s option and lowballed Dunn.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Jan 21, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Jan 21, 2009 12:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Incidentally

Why haven’t the A’s gone after Adam Dunn? He seems like Beane’s ideal player, especially since he is the poster boy for most depressed asset class.

by JBImaknee on Jan 21, 2009 11:51 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Well

They’ve got Jason Giambi, Jack Cust, and Daric Barton already there.

They’ve got Matt Holliday in whatever COF slot Cust isn’t in. Assuming Giambi doesn’t end up playing 1B and Cust at DH to make room for Travis Buck in a COF slot, with Barton getting sent down.

They just don’t really have a place for Dunn.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 21, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lots of other OF is my understanding

evidently they are targeting nick johnson/orlando cabrera

cabrera i understand
johnson i dont (injured all the time + will cost who knows what in trade

anyway dunn > johnson i would think

but they liked giambi more i would presume?

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Jan 21, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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