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Ben Sheets...

This is why I have been somewhat leery about signing Sheets...he is going to be a huge injury risk...

All of baseball, the Texas Rangers and the Milwaukee Brewers included, have treaded lightly around the subject of Ben Sheets’ pitching elbow.

Which is abundantly understandable. A club doesn’t want to spend $20 million over two years on a pitcher when the pitcher is destined to have Tommy John surgery and miss the next two seasons.

So, the Rangers wait. They want to see more medical information. They want to make sure that the guaranteed money, the draft pick they would have to surrender to sign the free agent, and the odds of Sheets staying healthy all add up.

I remember hearing about this from Joel Sherman on the Kellerman show, but it seems like his back could be a bigger issue going forward...

A cursory Internet search of Sheets’ medical history paints a picture of a player whose previous most debilitating injury wasn’t a frayed labrum or a failing rotator cuff, but a torn muscle in the upper part of his back.

Gil's link

Wilson's

I dunno, too many red flags to sign him?? Or, should we sign him anyway, see what happens...

0 recs  |  Comment 55 comments

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I don't see much of a reason not to sign him

It’s only a 2 year contract and there isn’t going to be much affordable, quality SP next off-season so you either bring in Sheets now or bring in no one this off-season or next.

by hiafex on Jan 25, 2009 2:22 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Forearm muscle tears.

A muscle tears. Scar tissue is formed. Scar tissue is strong but inflexible.

If the muscle he injured has not healed, his flexor-pronator muscles will not provide as much protection for the UCL as it was previously. It might still be strong enough to prevent ligament damage, but the risk factor is there. Yes, he’s never really injured his elbow before, but it can easily be argued that he’s never been at a higher level of risk for elbow injuries than he is now.

If the muscle is healed, scar tissue in the muscle can affect pitch quality. There’s a chance (even if only a very small one) that he’ll never be the same pitcher he was.

The medical is definitely significant, and it’s definitely a reason not to sign him.

That said, I’d still be interested in signing him to an incentive-laden deal. Guaranteeing him a lot of money is just a silly idea at this point. Make the incentives generous and easy to reach, but make sure he actually has to pitch in order to get that money.

by NoNameOnCard on Jan 25, 2009 4:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Gil's point is the same as Buster....

Olney’s in his blog on Saturday – Sheet’s issues have not been labrum, rotator cuff or elbow – the biggies. They’ve assorted, less debilitating things like the back muscle tear, groin, blisters and the like. All the more reason he will get signed by somebody for decent money. If the Rangers are truly interested, they probably need to pull the trigger before somebody with more money (Mets, Yankees, ) or more desperation (Mil, StL, LA) gets in the bidding.

by stltxfan on Jan 25, 2009 2:55 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I think

the rangers will still sign him. Hopefully they can get x-rays something they have been wanting according to the ST. Hopefully they get those fast, today or Monday. I’m still hoping for a deal Monday, If nothing gets done Monday, I think our chances go down a little with the mets and yankees becoming a little more aggressive. I really think if we don’t sign him we’ll regret it.

You dick that was uncalled for - male cheerleader

by iorange555 on Jan 25, 2009 3:47 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Or nvm they already have the x-rays.....

whistles nothing to see here. Move along.

You dick that was uncalled for - male cheerleader

by iorange555 on Jan 25, 2009 3:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

JD & Co.

have seen the records and done due diligence. The level of risk will be reflected in the contract offer. Have faith in JD.

FOR MANLY LOVE BE HERE MARCH 25TH AT 2:15 AM SHARP

by Agreen07 on Jan 25, 2009 6:01 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

They should only sign him if

1. they are convinced he won’t be this year’s Jennings
2. the dollars make sense.

As to point #2, look, if the Mets or Yankees come in and offer a 2 year deal for $12M per with incentives on top of that, than I don’t think the Rangers should necessarily step up and try to beat it (and they wouldn’t anyway). Because at a certain point the dollars are no longer worth the risk.

Sheets is a great signing under certain circumstances, but being outbid wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world unless you’re 100% convinced he’s going to stay healthy. Obviously that’s not possible, so you just have to trust your medical advice and make your best offer based on that.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 25, 2009 6:04 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

honestly

I’m really surprised a “large” market team isn’t involved. Seems like a low risk offer for them.

FOR MANLY LOVE BE HERE MARCH 25TH AT 2:15 AM SHARP

by Agreen07 on Jan 25, 2009 6:13 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The large market teams are in different circumstances

The Mets and Yankees can afford the contracts more easily, but they need to contend right now and are in less of a position to handle the lost performance from injury. The Yankees, for instance, may feel Pettite is a lower risk at $10M than Sheets at any price. Ditto for the Mets and Perez. And if Sheets is injured and the Yanks end up using their internal options, well maybe they should just use the internal options instead of signing him.

The Rangers can afford to fail in 2009, since the team isn’t in win now mode, and can more easily afford to take the gamble, even if the payroll is tighter.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 25, 2009 6:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thing is...

When he isn’t hurt, he’s not going to come within the same country of sucking that Jennings was in.

"Either we need to re-calibrate our rectangle, or Alfonzo Marquez is not having a good night." - Josh Lewin

by utlonghorn24 on Jan 25, 2009 10:07 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Exactly.

Healthy Sheets >>>>>>(repeat eleventy billion times) healthy Jennings.

My 2009 New Years Resolution: Quit feeding the trolls.

by ghtd36 on Jan 25, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Obviously

and my gut is that Sheets is just unlucky in his timing and teams are more scared than they should be. I feel he’s well worth the risk as long as the bidding doesn’t get too high.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 25, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

how could sheets be a jennings?

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Jan 26, 2009 7:33 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

by signing a contract

and then ending up needing surgery and not pitching.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 26, 2009 8:03 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Gil's statements on the injury
Sheets’ most recent examination was conducted by Dr. James Andrews, the noted orthopedic specialist and Tommy John surgery guru from Birmingham, Ala. When asked about it Friday, team president Nolan Ryan said he hadn’t yet seen Dr. Andrews’ reports.
*
An MRI in late September revealed a tear in a muscle near his right elbow. The Brewers elected not to include him on their playoff roster.
*

Fresh in the Rangers’ minds is right-hander Jason Jennings. He missed much of the 2007 season with a torn flexor tendon, the same thing Sheets has.

So, is it a torn tendon or a torn muscle? That seems to be a big difference.

JD: Adamant about 78 wins in 2009. Go Rangers!

by rooster on Jan 25, 2009 8:18 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Yep, that's what I said yesterday.

It seems all of this tendon talk is coming from the ST.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Jan 25, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Technically speaking...

The tendon is a part of the muscle. They could both be correct.

by NoNameOnCard on Jan 25, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I was hoping you might weight in.

Ok, Mr. Somers, have you read/heard/seen anything about the severity of this injury? I would love to read what Carroll thinks, but I don’t have a subscription.

What are your thoughts?

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Jan 25, 2009 4:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I haven't had the time to look up the specific injury...

but I suspect that it’s somewhere in his flexor-pronator mass. This can (but won’t necessarily) affect pitch quality and UCL health. I wrote a little about this at the top of this comments section.

Without having a clue about the severity, I can’t really comment further.

by NoNameOnCard on Jan 25, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I saw that, thanks.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Jan 25, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

OT: if we lose the draft pick...

…does that mean we’ll use the money we’d usually throw at a dropping talent with demands, like smoak, and make a bigger offer in latin america. the kind of offer that would bring back the best talent. take a couple million not spend on that pick and out bid everyone for not just a player or two but a majority of the young talent available in next years latin america class. we do well down there already, why not reallocate resources that we won’t be using on a first round pick to the latin america signees?

"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...

by ivysafety39 on Jan 25, 2009 9:20 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Second round pick

Fortunately since they were right in the middle of the standings, they wound up at #14, so they wouldn’t be losing their first.

by Brett Perryman on Jan 25, 2009 9:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Everyone seems freaked out about one pitcher or another

This year, we’ve had the following guys all suggested as possible Rangers: Greinke, Peavy, Sheets. Sheets of course is the most discussed. Everyone has one guy who they aren’t convinced about. Greinke is too close to FA and may be flaky, Peavy isn’t as good because of Petco and costs too much, Sheets may not be healthy.

The Rangers aren’t going to just be handed the perfect pitcher. We can wait until Feliz, Holland, Perez, etc are older and hope they become that, but its no sure thing. Or they can go out and get someone like Sheets, who isn’t perfect, who isn’t a sure thing, but is not that expensive and, if healthy, would be a Cy Young candidate.

by JBImaknee on Jan 25, 2009 12:09 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Still don't see the point.

They’re not going to win this year. Look at lonestarjon’s post. Nobody predicts anyone to pitch any innings for this damn team. I don’t see the point in adding a guy when there are young guys who can start.

by Black Francis on Jan 25, 2009 12:55 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

That is why I think you give him a contract with vesting options

the idea would be to take advantage of a spooked fa market this offseason so we can have an actual good pitcher in 2010 and 2011.

I also think that signing Sheets would result in a Millwood or Padilla trade as well, which I wouldn’t mind seeing (Sheets would be cheaper than Millwood and undoubtedly better if he actually pitched)

by JBImaknee on Jan 25, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Look at the FA pitcher list in '09/'10

and get back with me on that…

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Jan 25, 2009 1:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yep, that's the problem.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Jan 25, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

doesn't matter

no FA pitchers of any good capabilities will come to Texas. Only way to get good pitchers here other than FA is through trades…and that’s probably the better way.

by Longhorn on Jan 25, 2009 1:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Duck

and cover…………

the people will not take kindly to, “no FA pitchers of any good capabilities will come to Texas”.

BTW, We did sign a former ERA winner in Millwood.

"You’re the worst poster here I think."--- brettgardner
"Because he's the worst poster here I think."--Chase Irwin
"You might be the single worst Rangers fan on this board."--WyoRanger

by red shoe ranger on Jan 25, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

heh

but, would everyone be okay if we signed sabathia to 7 years 161MM?

by Longhorn on Jan 25, 2009 2:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think, at some point,

the attendence erosion has to be factored in. Signing Sheets would definately excite the masses, and I would love to see the number of tickets sold after/if he is signed.

no FA pitchers of any good capabilities will come to Texas

Yep, that’s why you have to roll the dice when lady luck is on your side. It would be a shared risk contract—-not like it’s 15m guaranteed a year or anything.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Jan 25, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sheets

He’s not a household name, and people aren’t going to come by the busload to watch him pitch.

by Black Francis on Jan 25, 2009 2:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

there aren't that many pitchers that are household names

"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."

by ab03 on Jan 25, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

big name

all-star game starter and lots of people know him from the olympics

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Jan 25, 2009 3:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

lots of people know

him from the Olympics? Are you serious? Were those games televised? If so what were the ratings? And how many of those viewers live in North Texas. Come on man, the average fan has no clue who Ben Sheets is.

"You’re the worst poster here I think."--- brettgardner
"Because he's the worst poster here I think."--Chase Irwin
"You might be the single worst Rangers fan on this board."--WyoRanger

by red shoe ranger on Jan 25, 2009 4:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes I am serious

that’s how I first heard of him.

The average fan hasn’t heard of MY either.

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Jan 25, 2009 4:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

WHAT?

Do you really believe more average baseball fans know who Ben Sheets is than MY?

If Hicks signs Sheets hoping for a boost in ticket sales he will be sorely disappointed.

"You’re the worst poster here I think."--- brettgardner
"Because he's the worst poster here I think."--Chase Irwin
"You might be the single worst Rangers fan on this board."--WyoRanger

by red shoe ranger on Jan 25, 2009 4:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No I didn't say that

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Jan 25, 2009 4:36 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

sheets vs. young

outside of the metroplex, i’d say it’s pretty close.

"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."

by ab03 on Jan 25, 2009 5:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know

Michael Young has had 2 game winning hits in the All-Star game, one of those coming in New York.

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Jan 25, 2009 7:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I would

but I also thought we should sign Zito………

"You’re the worst poster here I think."--- brettgardner
"Because he's the worst poster here I think."--Chase Irwin
"You might be the single worst Rangers fan on this board."--WyoRanger

by red shoe ranger on Jan 25, 2009 2:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

but he'd be around for longer than just 2009.

You don’t want an ace veteran at the head of the staff while young Feliz and Holland get their legs under them as rookies?

Now is always a good time to add an ace quality pitcher, especially at a bargain price.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 25, 2009 1:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

you

confound me……

“Now is always a good time to add an ace quality pitcher, especially at a bargain price”
Unless of course you are ready to win now(Yankees,Mets)?
The Rangers can afford to fail in 2009 and can afford the gamble.
These are are all your words.

Coherency is clearly not your strong suit.

There is NO argument that makes Sheets a better fit for the Rangers over another club.

-fencepost

"You’re the worst poster here I think."--- brettgardner
"Because he's the worst poster here I think."--Chase Irwin
"You might be the single worst Rangers fan on this board."--WyoRanger

by red shoe ranger on Jan 25, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There's no guarantee

at all that Sheets will be an ace. None. There’s a possibility but not even a good probability of it in my mind. And if he is hurt or contributes only in a MIlton Bradley type way (awesome when healthy but constantly missing starts), then a bad contract is a bad contract whether it sounds like a bargain or not.

Team won’t be ready in 2010, either. You want to go three years for Ben Sheets?

Don’t get me wrong…if they get him I’m not going to scream and pull my hair out or anything. I CAN see the logic behind the move but I don’t think it would be consequential to the Rangers’ long term plans. I think those would be better served by running the likes of Gabbard and Mendoza out there. People laugh, but you never know…one of those guys may stick. And I’m not one of these people who believes in keeping a pitcher in the minors forever, either. Bring some of these kids up. Let’s see what they have.

by Black Francis on Jan 25, 2009 1:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

so you'd rather give gabbard a chance

even though he brought a pile of suck to the plate last year and is even more injury prone then sheets and im not even going to touch mendoza

go here to view my blog: dirtfromd.blogspot.com

by studcrackers on Jan 25, 2009 5:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Winning games perhaps?

the preceding post was a great success.

by DSheppard on Jan 25, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not a good reason for 2009

They have all these damn kids coming up. Well, let them get experience. I would feel a LOT differently if Padilla and Millwood had a shot to give them 200 IP’s from the 2nd and 3rd spots in the rotation. They’d be a contender at that point.

by Black Francis on Jan 25, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well if padilla and millwood arn't going to go 200 innings

And sheets is highly unlikely to… and feliz and holland arn’t ready yet.. who are we so worried about blocking?

the preceding post was a great success.

by DSheppard on Jan 25, 2009 1:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

5 rotation spots

If three are held by vets, you only have two left. One of those will belong to McCarthy I’m guessing. I want more looks at Feldman, Gabbard, Mendoza, maybe Madrigal, and others. Not spot starts. Regular rotation spots.

That’s why the Volquez sucked for the Rangers. His stuff was awesome. Go back to the game logs from his last summer here and look at the days rest between his starts. Not saying they shouldn’t have traded him given what they got in return…the point is you have to give guys time. Regular turns. It hurts to watch but it’s the only way to find out about anybody.

Shouldn’t just wait around on the super high ceiling guys to make their way up. There are other pitchers who may prove to be decent or innings eaters. That has value.

by Black Francis on Jan 25, 2009 2:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The only one of those with any real chance to be a contributing starting pitcher to the rangers

Is feldman as an innings eater back of the rotation guy. And with the injury record of the 3 veterans and Mccarthy.. what are the odds Feldman doesn’t get a good long look?
I mean Luis Mendoza? Madrigal as a starter? come on.
And Gabbard has already been moved to the bullpen.

Giving starts to those guys may have some kind of value, but more than having Ben Sheets? The downside to sheets signing is that he gets injured and those guys start anyway. If hes pitching, the upgrade is worth it. Easily.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DSheppard on Jan 25, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Look

I don’t think Sheets would work out here. I don’t see the point in signing him. People say he’s cheap, but the contract is probably uninsurable and it’s likely he gets hurt. That’s still money, whether it’s “a lot” or not.

You want the Rangers to sign a good player. I can understand that.

But is he going to push them over the top? Is he even going to push them to over a .500 record? I honestly just don’t see the point in it. Again, it would be different if they had a couple of other guys maybe who aren’t even good but would give you more than 180 innings. If they had that, then yes it would be worth a shot. But they don’t have it so what the hell is the point?

And don’t be a condescending asshole. Seriously.

by Black Francis on Jan 25, 2009 11:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Your opinion

That’s your opinion, and I know I’m in the minority when I think certain pitchers have a chance to play a role in the future.

So if they sign Sheets that puts four oft-injured starting pitchers in the Texas rotation: Millwood, Padilla, McCarthy, and now Sheets. They already have three too many of those guys and everybody wants another one. Why haven’t people had enough of watching the Rangers make injury prone acquisitions?

Why would the upgrade be worth it? Are they going to ride one starting pitcher’s back all the way into the playoffs this year OR next? I don’t think so.

Again, I’m not going to tear my hair out if they sign this guy but it’s not going to pay any dividends. I mean if it works out well for them, sure, they’re going to win more games than they otherwise would have. Bid deal.

by Black Francis on Jan 25, 2009 11:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Its hard to respond to someone who says "big deal" to winning more games.

Sheets, in the deal I would like anyway, would be under control for 3 years. You can’t just pick up ace quality pitchers whenever you want. The Rangers are supposed to be targetting 2010. Thats not exactly 5 years away. There is probably noone of Sheets calibur that the Rangers would have a chance of getting next offseason.

Its like the people who criticized the tigers for getting magglio ordonez when they wern’t playoff calibur. You don’t make it in one big leap. Add Sheets this year, Feliz/Holland the next….

And a couple of other guys who arn’t that good but will give you 180 innings? Sounds a lot like Millwood/Padilla.

And you know what, yes I still care about wins in seasons where the Rangers arn’t destined for the world series. I watch the games. I like to be entertained. I’d like to watch a good pitcher. The rangers SHOULD be doing what they can to improve the team in 2009 even if its not their target year. The key is to do it without blocking prospects. The rangers 5th candidate starters are not good enough to worry about blocking for a sheets calibur pitcher.

Seriously, Warner Madrigal will be in the pen no matter what. He has never been considered to start. His random 2 inning appearence in an emergency doesn’t mean the rangers consider him a starter. Madrigal will most likely be in the pen. Feldman matters a bit, but with all the injury candidates he will almost surely get plenty of starts anyway. Mendoza? Come on the guy at the very least needs to prove himself again in AAA. Mendoza isn’t even a prospect. I know they are contenders, but the yankees and redsox arn’t even worried about pushing out buchholz and hughes.. and you are worried about luis mendoza?

As for the money… that money isn’t going anywhere else for 2009. After 2009 the rangers can drop padilla and possibly millwood if they need to. There is also no perceived need of any position players in FA for that offseason that having sheets on would stop the rangers from getting.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DSheppard on Jan 26, 2009 11:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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