Tuesday morning discussion question
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 27, 2009 10:30 AM CST
Email
PrintIf Jim Rice is a Hall of Famer, then so is Juan Gonzalez, right?
The rationale for each, the argument, is the same. Each player had a relatively short career where they played in a very hitter-friendly environment and didn't contribute much defensively.
Each was considered one of the most feared hitters in the game during their time in the majors.
Each was a high-power, mediocre-OBP guy.
Juan won two MVP awards, to just one for Rice, and led his teams to 4 playoff appearances, versus just two appearances for Rice.
Juan has more career homers than Rice.
So...if Jim Rice is in the Hall, doesn't Juan have to go in, as well?
Discuss.
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yuup
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 10:34 AM CST up reply actions
i don't think either are HOFers...
but, you’re right: Juando is at least as deserving as Rice.
I guess you heard Fat Joe left Atlantic.
moreso i would think
i mean, come on, at least juan was OFFERED 100 mil, jim rice never even got offered anywhere near that
< /sarcasm >
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
Has anyone looked at the era adjusted numbers? If you accept the difference between Rice’s era and Juan’s (the “steroid era”) then comparing their raw numbers isn’t exactly helpful.
I’m not arguing for Rice, only for statistical accuracy.
"I'd like to f*ck Sandra Bullock." - Pedro Martinez, explaining his secret ambition to Sports Illustrated for Kids.
Yes,
there is no question that if some BrainDead irrelevant BBWAA members vote a marginal HoF guy like JRice in, it should open the door to a bunch of other very marginal HoFers.
Get off my lawn.
yep
If the bar to the hall of fame becomes Jim Rice, then Albert Belle, Juan Gonzalez, and guys of that ilk should all be in as well.
The Bar
I don’t think the bar has actually been lowered.
I just think someone snuck in under the bar. I don’t see the flood gates opening for a number of suspect candidates. I think Rice was a unique candidate; not uniquely qualified mind you, but unique to the idiots who vote.
I’m hoping I’m right, but nobody knows what the voters will do.
Cuz Blyleven played in Minn (mostly)...
while Rice played in that temple called Fenway.
I miss Arlington Stadium
Not a bad seat in the house. Front row in left field for $5. Aah, the good old days.
I got to see one game there
Since we lived in Oklahoma. Although it was a memorable game I caught a foul ball by the great Larry Parrish. The day was August 13, 1983.
Sheets or bust
Yeah, if Rice is a HOFer
then ‘Scoop’ should definitely be in, although I’m biased. However, many of his peers agree.
juan gonzalez top 10 comparable batters:
Albert Belle (897)
Vladimir Guerrero (877)
Jason Giambi (855)
Duke Snider (852) *
Jim Edmonds (851)
Jose Canseco (847)
Johnny Mize (846) *
Dick Allen (843)
Moises Alou (839)
Mike Piazza (836)
jim rice top 10 comparable batters:
Orlando Cepeda (912) *
Andres Galarraga (893)
Duke Snider (879) *
Ellis Burks (876)
Joe Carter (862)
Billy Williams (856) *
Dave Parker (853)
Moises Alou (851)
Chili Davis (846)
Willie Stargell (843) *
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
Juan did play...
in a more hitter friendly environment and a more hitter friendly era.
I guess you heard Fat Joe left Atlantic.
by Haeger Champ on Jan 27, 2009 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
and?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
oh, sorry KOK, i didn't mean to leave you hanging...
AND… sometimes voters take these things into account when voting.
I guess you heard Fat Joe left Atlantic.
by Haeger Champ on Jan 27, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
ahh lol
makes snese now lol
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
No
because Juan didn’t play his heyday in Boston or New York. If Jim Rice had been a Baltimore Oriole he wouldn’t be in. If Juan had put up those numbers as New York Yankee, he would be a first balloter.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Jan 27, 2009 10:39 AM CST reply actions
AJM isn't asking "will he be"
I think that answer is obvious. We all know that Boston and NY get favorable treatment. The point is that if 75% of sportswriters agree that Jim Rice is a HOFer, shouldn’t 75% also agree that Juan is as well? Becasue Gonzalez was a better player with a comparable short career.
My point
is that 75% of sportwriters agreed on it because he played in Boston and got the Red Sox mystique to go with his candidacy. Everything Red Sox/Yankees players do is magnified based on their location. Rice didn’t deserve to get in, so without the Red Sox/Yankee mystique, Gonzalez won’t even be considered.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Jan 27, 2009 11:04 AM CST up reply actions
Jim Rice was a pretty good player
but he wasn’t very good and he was a long, long way from being considered a great player.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
Juando's numbers
were most likely a product of steroids and not HOF worthy.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Jan 27, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
The numbers aren't worthy
But I don’ think steroids should have anything to do with it.
by brettgardner on Jan 27, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
McGwire didn't come close
Steroids do matter to those who vote.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Jan 27, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
I know
I’m saying it shouldn’t matter.
by brettgardner on Jan 27, 2009 11:14 AM CST up reply actions
what kinda dumb statement is that?
why shouldnt shooting some shit that makes you hit the ball further, play longer at a high level, and at greater numbers than any other generation in baseball history?
rediculous statement
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
why shouldnt shooting some shit that makes you hit the ball further, play longer at a high level, and at greater numbers than any other generation in baseball history?
it helps you recover
i was under the impression that there was no research that said it helped you “hit it further”
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
thats incorrect
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
Sigh.
OK, so let’s run down the things that should exclude players from consideration according to your logic:
All illicit substances
Alcohol
Vitamins
Aspirin/Pain Killers
Band aids
Slings
Water
Food
Suffice it to say, I accept your concession that you have an unsustainable, dumb argument, and I’ll kindly ask you to learn how to spell.
by brettgardner on Jan 27, 2009 1:58 PM CST up reply actions
i agree with BG
- shiver *
how do you know who did and who didnt
everyone guessed at people like canseco but 5 years ago if you said roger clemens took roids would you have said they were crazy?
and remember who the first player suspended for steriods was? alex sanchez
…yes, the guy who had 4 HR in 1351 ABs at the time of his suspension
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
You don't try to think of it that way.
People that did it and didn’t get caught, lucky you.
People that did it and got caught, you face the consequences.
you miss the whole point of saying someone shouldnt go in because of steroids.
if a> a player took steroids he shouldnt be allowed in the HOF
then b> since testing was not in place during much of the last ~30 years, there is no way to “know” who did and who did not (remember that bonds, juan gonzalez, sosa, canseco, etc never tested positive and none have admitted to taking steroids)
then c> how do you decide who to let in and out?
—do you exclude players based on the fact they “probably” took steroids ?
—do you exclude only players who tested positive for taking steroids?
—how do you decipher between someone who you think took steroids (for example people in cansecos book or were mentioned at some point of the mitchell report) and someone who did and tested positive (alex sanchez)
there is no definitive list out there, therefore it is foolish in my mind to “keep people out” who “took steroids” but never tested positive or admitted to taking them…
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
Why are u having trouble grasping this
You get caught you don’t go to the HOF.
Obviously you can’t analyze who might of done it or not.
i understand that
but juan never “got caught” therefore why wouldnt he be allowed (theoretically)
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 7:26 PM CST up reply actions
McGwire hasn't come close *yet*
He’s still eligible, and the voters may forgive him with time. You suggesting suspicion of steroids is a guaranteed exclusion to the hall is, at best, fanciful.
by FuturePants on Jan 27, 2009 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
did you see the voting % this year
a couple more years of that % and Mac wont have a chance to change their mind b/c we wont be on the ballot anymore.
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
if you get less than 5%
you are out
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
Juan
A user?
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
You don't shun McGwire, Palmiero et al
from the HOF and then give a plaque to Juando.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Jan 27, 2009 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
Juan Gonzalez
I’m sorry, did he play in Boston or New York? No? Then he is not a hall of famer without elite numbers.
Fire Ron Washington
then do you also say no to bonds
even though what he took then was evidently legal at that point in time?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
You're right
I agree Bonds is also a “No”.
why?
he didnt break the rules (at that time)
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions
Baseball is king of "unwritten rules"
If they have them for retarded stuff, they should have it for this.
Yes, it might not have been illegal. The point of it was to get an advantage over other players.
Don’t use “well everyone else should’ve done it too” excuse since steroids is hazardous to your health.
The point of it was to get an advantage over other players.
so you would blast someone for working out too hard in the summer?
or moving their family from say north dakota to florida so he can work out in the summer?
using a “new” type of glove/bat?
a team from watering down the basepaths?
a team from scouting in “unknown areas” – say the middle of africa – to get an advantage?
my point isnt that he should or shouldnt get in, but if it wasnt illegal at the time…
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions
I usually agree with you but...
…Just becaue it wasn’t illegal in baseball it was illegal everywhere else. Working out is far different than doing an illegal drug to get an advantage on others.
Sheets or bust
yes, im being legalistic
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
maybe not
The clear was legal in the US until 2005 and not illegal in baseball. Should we go back and find out if any of the players drank in the 20s and ban them because they were breaking the law?
If they are found cheating kick em out, but if your rules don’t say it’s cheating blame the books not the player.
Drinking doesn't exactly help
you get an edge on other players. Apples and oranges try again.
Sheets or bust
You're being stupid
Yea steroids is like someone being lazy and not working out, a new glove/bat, moving to florida and etc.
Yes, it might not have been illegal. The point of it was to get an advantage over other players
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
working out harder is not illegal and the sole point is to gain an advantage over other players. so is taking pain killers, etc. none of those are illegal
would you block anyone who took a greenie as well?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
My dog
chews on these things that make him flip out. They’re called “greenies”.
Coincidence? Probably.
Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.
heh
im talking about these things
also, my housemate calls YOUR greenies “doggie crack” lol
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
dont get lawyer mumbo jumbo talk on us
this is the same league that banned the black sox for life and they were found innocent in a court of law.
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
that was as much b/c of judge landis as ANYTHING
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions
notes on juan gonzalez
-was married to javy lopez sister
-His daughter later became one of only fifty people in the world (and the first Puerto Rican) ever to have been diagnosed with Sebastian syndrome, a mild blood clotting disorder.
-González has a friendship with George W. Bush which began when González debuted with the Texas Rangers who at the time were owned by Bush. Igor stated that “a friendship that goes beyond baseball was created between them” and during his time in office Bush invited González to the White House twice
- the Puerto Rico youth league, Gonzalez batted cleanup behind future Yankee center fielder Bernie Williams
- González came up as a center fielder
- The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract listed him as the player who had the highest ratio of slugging percentage to on-base percentage in baseball history at that time, ahead of Dave Kingman and Tony Armas and 4th in RBI per game by an outfielder (behind Sam Thompson, Joe DiMaggio and Babe Ruth). James also ranked González as the 52nd-best right fielder in baseball history as of mid-2000.
-he participated in the first MLB game ever with four players with 400+ home runs to that point. Rafael Palmeiro and Fred McGriff joined Sosa and Gonzalez, which Texas lost to the Chicago Cubs 4-3.
-Juan’s 47 career multi-homer games are 12th most all-time
-In 1995, González joined the San Juan Senators for the 1995 Caribbean Series and hit .375 with 6 RBI as the Puerto Rican “Dream Team” won the title. González hit 5th, between Carlos Delgado and Rubén Sierra on a team that also boasted Roberto Alomar, Bernie Williams, Carlos Baerga and Edgar Martínez. San Juan outscored their opponents 49-15.
-he is a vegetarian
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
yes lol
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 10:54 AM CST up reply actions
I've always liked Juan
He seemed like one of those classic examples of a great Latin America player who received horrendous advice throughout his career. He had enough personality to have been a real star in the US if he spoke English better (kind of like Manny, who speaks English perfectly though sometimes pretends not to).
I was convinced growing up he was not only a HOFer but an all-time great. Shame that fell apart.
And Javy Lopez's family...
…all showed up in Kansas City to confront Juan because he was cheating on her with some Puerto Rican singer, and were hanging out in the lobby of the hotel, resulting in Juan spending the night in the visitor’s clubhouse.
by Adam J. Morris on Jan 27, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions
i hate it when that happens
I guess you heard Fat Joe left Atlantic.
by Haeger Champ on Jan 27, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
Really?
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
thats awesome.
EPIC story
are there any good books about juangonzalez out there?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 11:23 AM CST up reply actions
"whats wrong with cheating on your wife?"
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
Interesting
Juando only cracked the top 5 for AL OPS once in his career. 4th in ’98. Surprising.
For the record, I don’t think either Rice or Igor should be in.
Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.
He SHould be Punished
by the HOF voters for all of the dinky fly balls he let drop in front of him. Good arm though.
Free Frank Catalanotto
by egriffey on Jan 27, 2009 10:56 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
You can't
Throw someone out if you catch the ball in the first place…just like Jim Edmonds can’t dive for a ball full out if he makes it there on the run.
Maude Lebowski: Lord. You can imagine where it goes from here.
The Dude: He fixes the cable?
well played
definitely loafed in the outfield the 2nd time around…
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
I don't see either player as HOF worthy ...
but if you let Rice in, it would seem hypocritical not to let Gonzo in as well. On the other hand, I have a bias against Gonzo and would really not be offended at all if he didn’t make it.
why the bias?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
He was lazy.
He loafed in the outfield. I think the majority of his late-career injuries were either over-played or completely fictional. I was down on him before they traded him to Detroit. When he came back for his second extended vacation, that just sealed the deal as far as I was concerned.
fair enough
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions
I've wondered this myself.
Sports talk shows love discussing marginal HOF candidates yet Juan is never discussed. I’m not saying he should be in the HOF but shouldn’t he be mentioned? Two MVP awards, six silver sluggers, led the AL in HRs twice and doubles once. Made a serious run at Hack Wilson’s RBI record.and his comps for ages 31 and 32 are Manny Ramirez.
I need to think something lasts forever, and it might as well be that state of being that is a game; it might as well be that, in a green field, in the sun.
Does anybody have factual evidence he did steroids?
Or is this just a short-sighted inference because of the era he played in?
...Snoop Doggy-Dogg... Ya need to get yourself a jobby-job.
I think Juando
Got busted on a flight back from Toronto in customs with some steroids when he was with Cleveland.
Sheets or bust
was what he took illegal at that point in time?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Jan 27, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
They never found out
He was in the Mitchel report. That’s where the Cleveland story comes from.
Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!
by DerekSTheRed on Jan 27, 2009 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
We also have Canseco's testimony, but, you know, he
...Snoop Doggy-Dogg... Ya need to get yourself a jobby-job.
Cleveland?
Weeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll……
"They say brevity is the key to wit, so shut the f*ck up." Dad
by RangerFloppy on Jan 27, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
My apologies. He was in the Mitchell Report.
...Snoop Doggy-Dogg... Ya need to get yourself a jobby-job.
your missing the point
illegal got nuthin to do with it.
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
Haha
Rangers president Nolan Ryan called the Winter Meetings “a big waste of money and time.”
Oh Nolan I love it.
FOR MANLY LOVE BE HERE MARCH 25TH AT 2:15 AM SHARP
OT: President Bush's Cat Indigo
Did you guys know Bush’s daughters named the cat after Ruben Sierra? Apparently, they loved the guy.
Heh
That was more rhetorical, but I enjoy your enthusiasm nonetheless.
by FuturePants on Jan 27, 2009 12:53 PM CST up reply actions
"played in a very hitter-friendly environment"?
Juan played the first 28% of his career in the old Arlington Stadium.
According to BR the weighted average “Park Factor” for Juans career is a 101.5.
Boston was a 107.1 over Rice’s career.
What does that mean? Probably not much.
There's more to environment than home park.
People almost always mean the run environment of the era they play in when they say that.
OT
anyone interested in a cesar king autographed 1999 upper deck card (not my auction)
Jose Canseco Texas Rangers Action Figure
8 copies of 1 neftali feliz RC
theres some strange things out there that are rangers related
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
..cesar king?
anyway, the canseco figure reminded me of this mcfarlane figure I thought was.. interesting.
the preceding post was a great success.
how awesome is that?
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
That was my first thought.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
Placido is the poster boy
for combating teenage steroid use.
I guess you heard Fat Joe left Atlantic.
by Haeger Champ on Jan 27, 2009 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
Does anyone
have audio of Fake Juan Gonzalez? I couldn’t find it on the UnTicket
Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.
How you say....how you say?
She’s a beech!
It's baseball. You don't always get what you want, and you don't always want what you get. --Ed Coffin
Baseboll berry berry goot to me.
...Snoop Doggy-Dogg... Ya need to get yourself a jobby-job.
by oc on Jan 27, 2009 1:51 PM CST up reply actions
Ah-hahahahahaha!!!!
...Snoop Doggy-Dogg... Ya need to get yourself a jobby-job.
by oc on Jan 27, 2009 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
Suntyme, I like play beisbol
Suntyme, no like play beisbol
Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.
and my ad at the top of the page
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
So...
…if they make a Lifetime movie of this story, who plays Clemens?
Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.
Um, me, obviously.
The similarity is uncanny as hell.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"There are no weak opinions with the dirkatron, it’s all scream-across-the-parking-lot echelon." -hightowersmith
by thedirkatron on Jan 27, 2009 2:05 PM CST up reply actions
...Snoop Doggy-Dogg... Ya need to get yourself a jobby-job.
by oc on Jan 27, 2009 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
Those are all good suggestions
but I’m just going to assume Kevin Costner until I hear otherwise.
Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.
by TheJeezus on Jan 27, 2009 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I nominate Salty Goes Yard
He has a way with the ladies……
http://www.lonestarball.com/2008/7/10/568728/josh-called-my-bluff
It's baseball. You don't always get what you want, and you don't always want what you get. --Ed Coffin
Well Tom Hicks thinks he probably used steroids....
Blockquoted paragraph Texas Rangers owner Tom Hicks suspects that former AL MVP Juan Gonzalez used steroids , and he thinks the team got ripped off because the slugger quit juicing after he got a fat contract. The payoff quote from a TV interview: "Juan Gonzalez for $24 million after he came off steroids, probably , we just gave that money away
You don't really have to type 'Blockquoted paragraph.'
Otherwise, this is a success.
...Snoop Doggy-Dogg... Ya need to get yourself a jobby-job.
by oc on Jan 27, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions
I definitely think Rice belongs more than Juan Gone.
I don’t think either belongs, but if you force me to pick one I take Rice every time without even thinking twice.
That said, I understand and agree with your point. A lot of the argument used to put Rice in applies to Juan Gone, too. Which is a good example of why all players should be judged on the same, consistent standard instead of cherry-picking.
The "steroid era"...
is going to keep a lot of players out of the HOF. Just look at what it has done to McGwire and Palmeiro so far.
Rice shouldn’t be in, but if he’s in then Igor should be too.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
WARP Lines (Career/Best Three Seasons/Five Year Peak)
Jime Rice: 2,089 Games 73.0/24.7/31.7
Juan Gonzalez: 1,689 Games 58.7/21.6/25.5
Closer than I expected, but still clearly in Rice’s favor.
Juan Gone’s MVP seasons, btw:
’96: 3.8
’98: 5.2
And that’s with BP’s really fucking low replacement level. Just for one comparison, here are A-Rod’s totals in those years:
’96: 11.4
’98: 9.2
it's all the 'steroid era'
that will keep juan out. remembering back before the allegations came out most people assumed juando was a future hall of famer. i remember when we brought him back in 2003 the big selling point was the rangers would have 4 future hofer’s in the lineup in arod, pudge, raffy, and juan.
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