D/FW writers still think Michael Young is really good

Its not like its just DFW

Hes managed to get 5 consecutive all star appearences and a gold glove, the national media and baseball coaches/players still think he is good when I’d imagine the stat mentality only has him truly being all star level in 2005.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DSheppard on Jan 8, 2009 7:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yep.

You’d think those players and managers had never actually played baseball the way they seem to respect the huge pile of suck that is our FOTF. Bunch of idiots, those baseball guys.

by Athos on Jan 8, 2009 8:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Would the BoSox even dream of replacing Lowrie with Young right now?

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2009 8:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know.

If they think Lowrie’s half season of ML stats means he’s a better hitter going forward than MY, then you don’t make the deal. If you think his numbers won’t improve significantly or that they might decline as ML pitchers get a better scouting report on him, then they may value a guy who has proven himself in the big leagues over Lowrie. I don’t think it would be the moronic move that you are implying it might be though.

by Athos on Jan 8, 2009 8:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Lowrie played the entire second half with a fracture in his wrist; it didn’t affect his RH swing, but his swing from the left side was severely affected; there were times he said he could barely hold the bat. Through his minor league career, his LH side has actually been stronger.

It’s expected to be completely healed, and most of the Sox fans I know expect him to be a better hitter going forward as he should be able to improve his numbers vs RHP.

"I'd like to f*ck Sandra Bullock." - Pedro Martinez, explaining his secret ambition to Sports Illustrated for Kids.

by OCD SS on Jan 9, 2009 7:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not knocking Lowrie.

I actually think he’s going to be a pretty good player. My point was that it’s difficult to predict a player’s future based upon limited ML time. If you could, MY would still be a plus defender at second base who would struggle to put up a .700 OPS (which he may end up being after all, according to some of his team’s fans).

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 9:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He's the perfect example of what a baseball player should be

The only problem is that he’s not as good as he used to be. He’s hard working, great with the fans, great with his teammates (mostly), and he’s put up some great numbers in the past. The media, the coaches, and the players are always going to be slow to say that that a player like him isn’t that good anymore.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 8, 2009 8:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Losing the weight to play better D just killed his bat.

His line drives that used to go to the gap or over the right fielder’s head are now going straight to the right fielder. One of the reasons I’d like to see him move to 3rd is that he can afford to bulk back up a bit and put some more punch into his swing. I think the managers and coaches see a guy that works hard and makes adjustments to improve his overall game while the stat guys just see a guy that is regressing. If he still was the same guy he was in 2005, size-wise, I doubt you would see his numbers go down like they have.

by Athos on Jan 8, 2009 8:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Do you know how much weight he lost?

Just wondering since I don’t even know where to begin looking for something like that.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 8, 2009 10:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Seems like it was 20 pounds, but I can’t remember exactly.

by Athos on Jan 8, 2009 10:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Is that why he lost the weight,

I always assumed it was because MLB started testing.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Jan 9, 2009 7:00 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

In my darkest moments ...

I suspect you might be right. But the Young homer in me wants to trust that he really lost the weight to improve his mobility and defense.

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 9:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I suspect all players in MLB

who lost significant weight and whose hitting dropped off of trying to avoid testing.

I also don’t think MY is part of a small group either. There were a lot of baseball players who visibly shrank during the same time period. A lot of them, like Pudge Rodriguez, said it was to help their defense.

I also don’t think it says much about any of the players who were using, other than they were trying to do their best to win within the framework of the game as it was being played. I think the vast majority of players in all sports have to grab an edge to be in the elite of the elite who play major league sports.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Jan 9, 2009 9:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bill James will get fired by Boston

before he allows them to trade for Michael Young.
In defense of Young though, doesn’t he have that intangible leadership thingy that Lowrie lacks?

"And the Rangers looking to win it! The Rangers have won it!"
-- Josh Lewin, Sept 23, 2004

by Agreen07 on Jan 8, 2009 8:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

MY just wins =)

the preceding post was a great success.

by DSheppard on Jan 8, 2009 8:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

???????

You know, I don’t often comment on this board. Guess I read often and comment seldom. But, I don’t understand the hatred of Michael Young as a player. It’s not his fault he’s making a ton of money. Matter of fact, he was WAY UNDER PAID until this season. He’s just the type of player any manager would want on his team. He’ll really help this team when he moves to 3rd (still could be this year).

by coachh on Jan 8, 2009 8:23 PM CST reply actions 1 recs

I don't hate Michael Young

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2009 8:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

do you hate sammy sosa?

the preceding post was a great success.

by DSheppard on Jan 8, 2009 8:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's not hatred.

But you’ve never really forgiven him for turning out to be a better option for the Rangers at 2b than Cat was. : )

by Athos on Jan 8, 2009 8:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I remember those debates

AJM was pretty outspoken that Cat was clearly the better 2b option.

"I see their [Angels] rotation as John Lackey and a bunch of decent starters." - AJM

by tricer on Jan 8, 2009 10:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, those were some great arguments.

The funny thing is that at the time, MY’s only value was as a defensive second baseman because any fool could see that he would never hit for anything. Ah the memories.

by Athos on Jan 8, 2009 11:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, it is ironic

The original debate was whether his plus glove could carry his light bat.

I guess the lesson there is that young players often develop in ways that are pretty unexpected.

"I see their [Angels] rotation as John Lackey and a bunch of decent starters." - AJM

by tricer on Jan 8, 2009 11:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i dunno

he would still have a plus glove at 2B and he’s regressed into the light hitter he was projected as. Outside of a couple steroid years he appears to be exactly as projected except he hits for a better average.

W: "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

by hubcityraider on Jan 9, 2009 12:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

he would still have a plus glove at 2B

This seems like an awfully huge presumption.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 1:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Little Harsh

I do think your being a little harsh on MY.

They guy has been a top 5 SS in baseball over the last 5 years and youre arguing for Jed Lowrie, really Jed freakin Lowrie?

Also, id bet you right now that MY does better than those projections indicate and Lowrie does worse

by Horns130 on Jan 8, 2009 9:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

x

id bet you right now that MY does better than those projections indicate and Lowrie does worse

Why?

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2009 9:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

One reason

Young played through two broken fingers last season. It seems likely that those injuries affected his play. That would be one reason why projecting Young’s performance based on last year’s production might be misleading.

"Was this really necsarry?" - cowpoke/hurler hurley

by trza on Jan 9, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's the thing, though

James projects Young to hit almost as well as he did in 2007.

People are acting like a .297/.349/.427 line is some slap in the face to Young.

But the OBP is pretty much in line with what he’s done his whole career, except for 2005.

The slugging percentage is actually better than either 2007 or 2008.

Unless you think Young is going to start hitting for power again like he did from 2004-06, that line seems imminently reasonable, broken finger last year or not.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 9, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's pretty reasonable

But it’s still a tad on the low end of what I’d expect from him. I’d project closer to an .800 OPS if he’s fully healthy. I still hold out hope he’s got another .898 season left in him. Still, if he can post an .800 OPS with league average defense (which he has approached in the last two seasons) he’s a very valuable shortstop.

"Was this really necsarry?" - cowpoke/hurler hurley

by trza on Jan 9, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't hold your breath

on him flashing back to his year 28 season that occured during the steroid era.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Jan 9, 2009 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't worry

I’m not. Still, it would be nice…

"Was this really necsarry?" - cowpoke/hurler hurley

by trza on Jan 9, 2009 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, it certainly would.

It would be great if all the Rangers met or exceeded their career years next year.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Jan 9, 2009 10:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, it would be nice.

I’d love for him to have some late career surge of awesome.

That’s different from expecting it, though. Logic and emotion are two different parts of ones brain.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But Dan,

anyone who doesn’t fully expect Young to hit like that again is just a hater, haven’t you been paying attention?

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 9, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I forget sometimes.

Probably the Mad Cow.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Jan 9, 2009 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The 200 hit streak is over

I think MY may start hitting for a little more power this year now that he is not chasing 200 hits. In 2007, it seemed that after the ASB, when he wasn’t on pace for 200 hits, he started taking fewer walks (not that he ever took that many) and hitting with less power, in an attempt to get to 200 hits. He just barely made it in 2007 with a late season surge. In 2008, he wasn’t even close. Now that the streak of 200-hit seasons is over, maybe he will start trying to hit the ball a little harder.

by NorCalRangersFan on Jan 9, 2009 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How is it hatred

to point out that Young is nowhere near the player that would get a Teixeira-like return in trade? How is that hateful?

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 8, 2009 9:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's not hatred.

I didn’t see any hatred in that post. I saw him pointing out that MY isn’t that good and people in the DFW media think otherwise.

Blame the media for being stupid.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 8, 2009 10:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You don't see Adam being excessively critical of Young here?

The DFW media writes great things about a fan favorite, that shouldn’t be shocking. But there are plenty of people including Adam that are apparently tired of seeing Young be considered great and paint him in the same light as Sammy Sosa.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 8, 2009 10:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"tired of seeing Young be considered great and paint him in the same light as Sammy Sosa"

i think you throwing sideshow in there is more excessive than AJM thinking MY isn’t that good.

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Jan 8, 2009 11:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The title of this thing is

“DFW writers still think Michael Young is really good”. He actually still is really good for a SS. Even with the finger injuries last year, he still was one of the better hitting offensive SSs and has been for the past few years.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 8, 2009 11:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No one is saying he's sammy-useless though.

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Jan 8, 2009 11:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well its not an exact comparison

But he is treated the same when you mention him as anything but a poor player.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 8, 2009 11:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

AJM is not saying Young is a poor player

where are you getting this?

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Jan 8, 2009 11:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

once again, just look at the title of this thread

and how he, and others around here, talk about him. I don’t know if there is a direct quote out there from Adam saying that Young is a poor player, but he’s laying down some pretty strong hints that he sure as hell doesn’t see him as a good player.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 8, 2009 11:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

there is a huge difference between "DFW writers still think MY is really good" and "MY is a poor player" don't you think. Surely you can see that without much trouble right?

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Jan 8, 2009 11:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Again

you’re giving Adam a huge benefit of the doubt here. He took a little snippet from Jim Reeves saying that the Red Sox may have interest in Young because Lowrie isn’t exactly some AS player and turned that the media thinking way too highly of Young. He then went on to say that you could reasonably argue Lowrie will be better than Young next season. And I don’t think its too high of praise when you say that a player will be lucky to get a bag of balls in return in a trade.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 9, 2009 1:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

being worse than Lowrie

does not make you a poor player. That’s the difference you are missing.

Also, the bag of balls comment was in reference to his contract — not just his skills. They could absolutely get alot more for him if his contract was more reasonable.

I don’t understand why criticizing MY makes some people get their panties all twisted up.

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Jan 9, 2009 7:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well his contract is more reasonable

according to some reports in that he got paid a huge signing bonus when he was still making nothing.

Criticize MY all you want, but the problem I have is the over criticizing. Such as saying that Lowrie was better than Young last year which just isn’t true. Lowire had a whopping 260 ABs. Would you say Chris Davis was better than Prince Fielder, Ryan Howard, or whatever other veteran 1B put up similar stats over a full season last season? And this post by Adam is just one of the many examples you can find on this board where people will talk about Young as if he is killing the team in every possible way.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 9, 2009 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

AJM never said he's killing the team in every possible way

you are constantly putting words in his mouth just because you don’t like what he said.

He said going forward (and taking into consideration the contract) that Lowrie is a decent bet to be better in 2009.

You are going overreacting big time here buddy.

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Jan 9, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Did I say that is what Adam said?

Now you’re putting words in my mouth.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 9, 2009 5:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

huh?

And this post by Adam is just one of the many examples you can find on this board where people will talk about Young as if he is killing the team in every possible way.

Sure sounds like you said that to me.

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Jan 9, 2009 7:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"as if he is killing the team in every possible way."

I’m not saying Adam is saying that, just that that is the tone of his writing when Young is mentioned.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 9, 2009 10:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

lol

that’s some spin if I’ve ever seen it. You are overreacting here.

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Jan 10, 2009 1:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

x

Such as saying that Lowrie was better than Young last year which just isn’t true.

That’s not what I said. What I said was:

Here’s the thing…Lowrie is, right now, probably about as good as Young.

* * *

From an overall performance standpoint, if you had to choose between Lowrie and Young for 2009, ignoring contract status and everything else, it might be a coin flip, although you could reasonably argue Lowrie would be expected to be better.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 9, 2009 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

okay, then.

I read that part wrong.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 9, 2009 5:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't know how you can say it's a fact that Lowrie wasn't better.

Just for starters, he had a higher WAR even with less playing time.

I’m not saying it’s a fact he was better, but I don’t know how you can just say it “just isn’t true,” as if it’s an undeniably obvious truth.

Furthermore, I do think it’s pretty damn obvious that Lowrie was better while they were both playing.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nevermind the fact. . .

. . . that as Adam said, he never said that.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

x

I don’t know if there is a direct quote out there from Adam saying that Young is a poor player,

That’s because there aren’t. I haven’t said he is.

I’ve said he’s an average to slightly above average shortstop. And of course, he’s being paid like a superstar, and is treated by the D/FW media like he’s Alex Rodriguez, Roger Staubach, and Jesus rolled into one person.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 9, 2009 8:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ARod

never received close to the fawning publicity that MY gets.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Jan 9, 2009 8:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

I didn’t mean the publicity — I meant in terms of ability.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 9, 2009 8:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well this Reeves' blog post

is a terrible example of him being treated like that. If you want to bitch about the DFW media liking him too much, you picked a pretty poor example of it. And again, the guy is a huge fan favorite, did you really expect the DFW media to talk about him like he is some average player?

And I do not agree about the average part. He is easily better than the average SS still. And that he’s being paid like a superstar isn’t his fault so I don’t know why people are always trashing Young for that and trying to downplay what he does.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 9, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

did you really expect the DFW media to talk about him like he is some average player?

I don’t expect it, but it sure would be nice if more fans and media were a bit more reasonable, unbiased and logical.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This was supposed to be in the last post. . .

How is he “easily” better than average? What is that based on?

And it’s not like average is bad.

I really have never seen anyone blaming Young for the contract or attacking his character for it. I don’t think many people actually hate Michael Young and think he’s a villainous thief.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Average

AL shortstops hit .266/.319/.375 in 2008, a good bit below Young’s line in what was considered a down year. His fielding also wasn’t bad enough to bring him down all the way to average. He was an above-average AL shortstop in 2008. (NL Shortstops hit .276/.334/.404, which is pretty close to his stats)

Mike Grouse Interview - Rangers' Midwest Cross Checker

by Andy Seiler on Jan 9, 2009 3:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I would disagree.

He might be significantly above average, he might not, but you didn’t give an indication of how many runs that line was worth and how many runs his defense was worth, relative to average.

My point is, I’m not sure how this is an obvious fact of life, and you didn’t give an indication as to how it is.

By Fangraphs, for starters on a counter argument, MY was 9.7 runs below the average hitter, and 3.9 runs below the average fielder. With a positional adjustment, that’s still 6.9 runs BELOW average. Which is in the range where I would call a player about average.

I would not adamantly disagree that he was above average. I’m not seeing how it was undeniably obvious that he was. Or even likely.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 3:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And remember:

He plays his home games in Arlington.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 3:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I was referring wholly to AL shortstops

Their entire line. NL shortstops are a different story, and I’m not sure you’re taking that into account. His batting line was almost a dead ringer for NL shortstops. If you take that into account, then yes, he’s about average. But as far as AL shortstops go, he was above-average.

I think we’re also hitting a wall in terms of defining above-average. I’m not the one saying he’s a top 5 AL shortstop. I’m saying he’s better than average, the true definition of above-average.

Mike Grouse Interview - Rangers' Midwest Cross Checker

by Andy Seiler on Jan 9, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I know you're not saying he's top 5.

You and Gdawg are saying he’s above average as an apparent, inarguable fact, and I’m not sure where that’s coming from. I think he’s pretty close to the true definition of average and STILL haven’t been given the obvious, undeniable evidence showing he’s not.

As far as the league, I’m not sure why that matters. When people call someone average, they almost always mean among MLB players, not the players in their specific league. What’s the point of dividing them in this case? (Other than trying to make MY look better).

As neither Gdawg or AJM said AL, I’ll assume they meant MLB, since limiting it to the AL is pointless.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So lets see

He’s put up a line that was easily better than AL SSs. As I’ve noted before, he led the AL in win shares. He was 4th in the AL in VORP. If you want to add the NL to this, Young was 7th in win shares and 10th in VORP. Young also had a 108 sOPS+ while the AL SSs put up a 94 sOPS+ (sOPS+, if I understand it right, compares OPS to Major League SSs).

No matter how you look at it, Young while playing with some injuries was easily above average last year.

Limiting it to the AL isn’t pointless at all. The AL and the NL play different teams for most of the year and have a huge difference in including the DH vs. not including the DH. Since they are two different leagues playing different teams, I think its useful to look at how a player is compared to his league as well as the rest of the baseball.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 9, 2009 5:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No matter how you look at it, Young while playing with some injuries was easily above average last year.

How is that above average? You gave his stats and ranks, not average.

I already pointed out how by Fangraphs numbers he was BELOW average. How is that an indication that “no matter how you look at it” he was “easily” above average?

Top 10 =/= above average. They’re different. He was, I believe, 14th in WAR among SSs, and not far from the top 10, but that was still only about average.

I ask again: where is this evidence that he was inarguably above average. Not where he ranked, but how he compares to the average major league shortstop in total production.

sOPS+, if I understand it right, compares OPS to Major League SSs

No, at least on baseball fever. It’s how he compares to players in the same split.

Also, looking at OPS+ and VORP is ignoring the defensive component.

I posted Fangraphs numbers, and how he’s a few runs below average in those. Why is that just being ignored? No one is even giving the reasons those are obviously incorrect, just ignoring them.

Again, I have not said he was definitely no better than average. I’m wondering where this definitive evidence is showing that numbers like what Fangraphs have are definitely wrong on Michael Young.

Limiting it to the AL isn’t pointless at all. The AL and the NL play different teams for most of the year and have a huge difference in including the DH vs. not including the DH. Since they are two different leagues playing different teams, I think its useful to look at how a player is compared to his league as well as the rest of the baseball.

I’m sorry, I’m still not sure how this is relevant. We’re evaluating players from a team-building perspective. Teams are limited to AL players and NL players, MLB players are MLB players.

Yes, there are things from the various leagues, but completely ignoring players from what league if you’re trying you’re evaluate someone relative to what his position puts up doesn’t give you a very good picture. It’s useful in certian arguments, I’m not sure about this one. And it really does seem like it’s just trying to create something that makes MY look better than he is.

If I’m a GM and I’m trying to figure how how good Michael Young is, should I ignore what the average MLB shortstop is capable of putting up and only pay attention to the players from the league my team is in? In that case, if I’m an NL team, do I just not sign Michael Young, even if he helps me, because he’s an AL player?

Furthermore, you never said relative to the AL, you said average shortstop. Am I supposed to assume you mean in half of baseball, not all of Major League Baseball? Because most people don’t mean than. And I’m pretty certain Adam didn’t.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 6:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks to Longhorn for helping fuel this fire a bit more

According to justVORP, Young was worth 24 runs. The average value of a SS in baseball last season was 8 and in the AL it was 7.z

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 11, 2009 12:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"Really good," is subjective.

I definitely do not think he’s still really good, but we could agree on how good he is and still disagree on whether that’s really good or not.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 8, 2009 11:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

AJM...Dreamkiller, Heartbreaker,

and Rabble Rouser.

Somewhere a poor little 8 year old boy is crying himself to sleep…how do you live with yourself, man???

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Jan 8, 2009 8:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

To make myself feel better...

…I take the crying 8 year old’s milk money and use it to play video games.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2009 8:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Eh, I can live with that.

So, you up for a Galaga Smackdown, Mr. Bucky?

You buy!

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Jan 8, 2009 8:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Fly out to right...

Ground out to short. I was rooting for the 200 hit streak to stop. Hopefully, that will lead to more walks, instead of extending a streak. Or not letting a finger heal. And I like the guy.

by scoop16 on Jan 8, 2009 8:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Why...

Would you root against a player like that. Every hit helps the team out

by Schultzy on Jan 8, 2009 8:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

GIDP's

hurt the team. Flyouts to right generally don’t advance a guy to second. He’s carved a nice career with his approach, so I don’t expect it to change. Wishful thinking on my part. ‘Rooting against’ is probably the wrong term. I just like the simple effectiveness that a boring walk gives a team. Seems like he’s also fallen in love with the praise of being an opposite field hitter. He used to turn on the ball every once and a while and deliver a left-center double or homer.

by scoop16 on Jan 8, 2009 9:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You realize last year he hit into fewer GIDPs than the last 3 years previous right

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Jan 8, 2009 9:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes.

Those were top ten years. I believe last year he was 1 away from top ten. Also, top ten in outs the last 3 years. I really do like the guy, my avatar was the same way. A lot of times it’s a product of consistently hitting the ball hard. Just like Pudge.

by scoop16 on Jan 8, 2009 9:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Young in the past few years has also been among

the top in the league in PAs.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 8, 2009 10:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A little perspective is helpful.

I think MY is going to be a polarizing player here at LSB from now until his last game as a Ranger.

Mitch Moreland - Rangers 2009 Minor League Player of the Year

by RangerMad on Jan 8, 2009 11:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And probably long after ....

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 12:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

MY is greatness.....

so suck it!!

t ball on MY - "hate the contract, don't hate the player"

by bspate on Jan 8, 2009 8:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think there is at least a perception

difference between deification and excessive admiration. Being more than somebody expects is not a good reason to be maligned.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Jan 8, 2009 9:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

And he never asked for it.

He has never been a “look at me” player, at all. In fact, most of the good/great/charitable things he has done have been reported after the fact.

He would be the very best role model for a son, uncontested.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Jan 8, 2009 9:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree that MY seems like the type of guy that would be a great role model. But that doesn’t have anything to do with his baseball abilities.

"I see their [Angels] rotation as John Lackey and a bunch of decent starters." - AJM

by tricer on Jan 8, 2009 11:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

But also notice I didn’t mention any baseball abilities in my post. I was commenting on Ed’s post.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Jan 9, 2009 9:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

that's why he's FOTF

duh.

W: "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

by hubcityraider on Jan 9, 2009 12:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

For those who dont know..

Meno71 has always hated young since day 1.

Where is Benji Gil when you need him.

by rangerknight on Jan 8, 2009 9:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Dumb.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

So last Friday I’m at a bar. I take this guy home. He’s a little fat. Whatever, right? Plus, chubsters are so grateful, they usually try harder. Anyway, right in the middle of things, he’s sweating and grunting like a hairy rhino and I just start to hate myself. Really, really hate myself… So, without even thinking, I just head butt him right in the face. Bam. Clock him right between the eyes. Knock him out cold. So, that’s what I got. What you got going on?

by thedirkatron on Jan 9, 2009 1:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Young

Micheal Youngs line last year was bad by his standards. We have become accustomed to a .300 hitter with a little more pop in his bat. But even still he was the best offensive SS in the American League. There were only a handful in the NL who were better. What makes Bill James think Jed Lowrie will produce a line that would be one of the top offensive seasons in the AL by a SS from a rookie. His defense may be better which I am not questioning. But all this bitching and moaning about Young and his bat is nonsense. Imagine how people would be had we had an average SS last year offensively. There aren’t 30 Hanley Ramirez’s or Jose Reyes’ out there.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Jan 8, 2009 9:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

But even still he was the best offensive SS in the American League.

By what standard is this so clear you can say it as a fact? 3rd in wOBA? 3rd in wRC? He tends to be about 3rd in just about any measure. How was he apparently the best as a matter of fact?

What makes Bill James think Jed Lowrie will produce a line that would be one of the top offensive seasons in the AL by a SS from a rookie.

That would be what his projection system predicts. You’d have to look in to the particulars of that. It’s one of the more simple systems, but I’ll bet you a nickel PECOTA projects Lowrie as being about that good, too, but PECOTA isn’t out yet.

In conclusion: Michael Young was 14th in WAR this past season, and he’s 32.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 8, 2009 10:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

14th among shortstops.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 8, 2009 10:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well he led the AL in total win shares for a SS

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 8, 2009 10:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting. . .

Not that I like Win Shares, but still interesting.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 8, 2009 11:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What about Derek Jeter?

"And the Rangers looking to win it! The Rangers have won it!"
-- Josh Lewin, Sept 23, 2004

by Agreen07 on Jan 8, 2009 9:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Jeter sucks ass...

If he had been a Devil Ray (at the beginning of his career… a Ray now), no one would know who he was. He certainly wouldn’t have the Gold Gloves, All-Star appearances, and World Series rings.

by Wemedge on Jan 8, 2009 10:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Some stats for Jeter

.316/.387/.458 career line. 275 SBs, 206 HRs, 2535 career hits, career OPS+ of 120, career wOBA of .372, and I could go on and on about it. He might not have the WS rings, he probably didn’t deserve some AS starts, and I don’t think he deserved a single Gold Glove, but he’s been a great hitter throughout his career and a probable HOF in Tampa bay, Florida, New York, Seattle, wherever.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 8, 2009 11:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

WS rings.

I thought he had 3 or 4 from the late 90’s.

by Athos on Jan 8, 2009 11:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sorry about being unclear on that

I was talking about if he wasn’t playing for the Yankees.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 8, 2009 11:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gotcha.

My bad.

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 12:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Umm

that was part of my point, buddy. Welcome to LSB, punk.

"And the Rangers looking to win it! The Rangers have won it!"
-- Josh Lewin, Sept 23, 2004

by Agreen07 on Jan 8, 2009 11:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ass Clown

by Wemedge on Jan 9, 2009 12:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

AJM

we really need to cap membership cause of people like this kid.

"And the Rangers looking to win it! The Rangers have won it!"
-- Josh Lewin, Sept 23, 2004

by Agreen07 on Jan 9, 2009 12:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Kid?

I’ve probably got hemorrhoids older than you.

by Wemedge on Jan 9, 2009 12:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh...

so why do you act like such a kid?

"And the Rangers looking to win it! The Rangers have won it!"
-- Josh Lewin, Sept 23, 2004

by Agreen07 on Jan 9, 2009 12:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And you folks on this blog

take yourselves way too seriously… most of you anyway.

by Wemedge on Jan 9, 2009 12:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I was kidding

please relax.

"And the Rangers looking to win it! The Rangers have won it!"
-- Josh Lewin, Sept 23, 2004

by Agreen07 on Jan 9, 2009 12:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

good joke

douche

W: "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

by hubcityraider on Jan 9, 2009 12:41 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

In the Face!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUk9byuwJ6I

"And the Rangers looking to win it! The Rangers have won it!"
-- Josh Lewin, Sept 23, 2004

by Agreen07 on Jan 9, 2009 12:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Jeter "sucks ass?"

Please. He may have an overrated career and bein the most annoying human on the face of the planet, but he does not suck ass, and he never has.

And considering right now he’s about as good as MY, you are, by transitive property, saying. . .

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 8, 2009 11:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Jeter and Young are very similar players...

but I think they are both overpaid and both in need of a position change.

by Wemedge on Jan 9, 2009 12:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yup.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 1:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Concur

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Jan 9, 2009 6:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You know, this is what I hate about MY's reputation

You can’t even imply that the guy’s really not going to bring back a huge haul in trade without people bashing you for hating the guy. Ridiculous.

I know he’s going to go down in Ranger history as one of our most beloved players, but sooner or later, people are going to have to face the fact that “The Face” just ain’t what he used to be, and that saying so doesn’t necessarily mean you hate the guy. It’s the ongoing hero worship and irrational behavior regarding the slightest criticism the guy by his “defenders” that festers any actual feelings of dislike or hatred toward MY that there might be.

Did Jon Daniels downsize your old position at Dunking Donuts?

by lonestarJon on Jan 8, 2009 10:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Jon,

it is not just “slightest criticism”. The implication is that MY is the worst SS in the league. I do not think observation or stats support that but everyone to his own opinion. Barring injury, MY will be the Rangers SS this year and on the team for 5 more years. If Andrus is ready, I don’t think Michael will resist moving. I just don’t understand the resentment for anything positive that is said about Young.

by Jea103 on Jan 8, 2009 10:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

x

The implication is that MY is the worst SS in the league.

No, it isn’t.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 8, 2009 10:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The implication is that MY is the worst SS in the league.

Who has ever implied this?

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 8, 2009 10:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"Worst" is obviously an exaggeration ...

but MY’s detractors definitely beat this crap into the ground. Just like you all are pointing out that his fans get their noses out of joint when anybody says he’s not so good, folks on your side of the argument tend to get theirs out of joint when anybody points out that he really is.

Take his gold glove for example. That “haters” (for lack of a better term) cited the fielding stats that said he shouldn’t have won and then reacted with great vitriol when the “less accurate” defensive stats (whatever the hell that means) said picking him wasn’t such a travesty. The point is that emotions seem to get out of joint on both sides of any MY argument.

by Athos on Jan 8, 2009 10:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A lot of people like just pointing out the most defensible truth.

Also, “less accurate” means less accurate. Fielding Percentage tells you a whole lot less than Plus/Minus.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 12:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

“Less accurate” in terms of defensive stats is pretty subjective. There are so many different kinds that you can pretty much cherry pick those that support your point. And those that support a specific side’s point tend to be the most accurate by some amazing coincidence.

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 12:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you can pretty much cherry pick those that support your point.

Doesn’t mean you should. What’s responsible, logical and intelligent is finding what has the best basis of information to give you and forming your opinion from that. Not first forming your opinion, then finding whatever stat seems to support that.

You do understand why something like plus/minus is closer to absolute usefulness than fielding percentage, right?

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 1:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think like most defensive stats ...

it is subjective. Based on its description, it’s still a guy or group of guys watching plays and deciding that some other player either did or did not make the same play. Any system dependent upon a human element like that is going to be prone to subjective error. Does that mean it’s necessarily wrong? Probably not. But it doesn’t exactly make the results beyond question either.

MY’s range isn’t great. That’s no secret. But when he gets to the ball he generally turns it into an out or outs. Given that he plays behind a ground ball staff on a fast infield, I think his range limitations tend to get too much attention.

All that said, when did this turn into a plus/minus v. fielding percentage debate? Looking back at my posts I don’t think I once mentioned fielding percentage.

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 2:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it doesn’t exactly make the results beyond question either.

And I don’t think anyone should claim otherwise. I don’t think anyone here does.

They still have a consistant, objective criteria that is more usefull than something like fielding percentage. Not only does it have a wider base of coverage, but it has a better system.

MY’s range isn’t great. That’s no secret. But when he gets to the ball he generally turns it into an out or outs. Given that he plays behind a ground ball staff on a fast infield, I think his range limitations tend to get too much attention.

To the +/- argument, I’m not sure how this is relevant.

And the argument about defensive metrics you were citing tended to be about people cherry picking mostly useless stats to support MY. Or citing RZR while ignoring OOZ, which is just hilarious.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 2:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Huh?

So a bunch of guys watching replays on t.v. and saying to themselves “yeah, some other guy made that play so MY gets a minus here” is objective? You really don’t see how influences like say, the personal bias of the observer, could possibly affect the results?

And you don’t see that fielders that play behind ground ball staffs are typically going to see more grounders, a lot of which are going to be hits, particularly when the grass on the infield is cut low thus allowing the ball to move faster through the infield? That couldn’t affect plus/minus at all? Interesting theory.

There are defensive stats that say MY is a good fielder and others that say he’s not. I understand that you think you’ve hit on the one statistical analysis that correctly judges defensive performance. That others disagree doesn’t make them stupid, or homers, or whatever other dismissive label you want to place on them. If there was a single “can’t miss” way to measure defensive performance and it said MY stunk and others argued otherwise, you might have a mountain to shout from. As it is, your mole hill isn’t any taller than anyone else’s.

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 2:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So a bunch of guys watching replays on t.v. and saying to themselves "yeah, some other guy made that play so MY gets a minus here" is objective?

That’s, um, not really how it works.

There are defensive stats that say MY is a good fielder

Okay, and which of them are among the most thorough? I’m not sure I’ve come across these stats.

I understand that you think you’ve hit on the one statistical analysis that correctly judges defensive performance.

No, you don’t understand that because I don’t think I have.

That others disagree doesn’t make them stupid, or homers, or whatever other dismissive label you want to place on them.

It depends on what stat it is that they’re using. If someone is citing fielding percentage, yeah, that’s pretty stupid. If they’re citing a stat because it supports their beleif, and not because it forms their belief, yeah, that’s pretty stupid.

Arguments are not stupid because they disagree or smart because they agree. You definitely don’t understand my point, and I’d bet the points made by many others.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 3:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You obviously are incapable of understanding a ...

controverting opinion. Isn’t being dismissive a hoot?

My assessment of the plus/minus system came from reading the process on the fielding bible website. And it’s a pretty accurate summation of what happens. And the problem with relying on eye-witness accounts of a thing is that no two eye-witnesses ever see the same thing exactly the same way. Their memory and opinions are colored by their perception of the event. That’s why two people can watch a bank robber speed away from a crime scene and each swear that the car he left in was a different color. The folks at the fielding bible that are watching and logging all of these defensive plays are in the same boat as an eye witness in a trial.

I’m still not sure how I became the champion of fielding percentage, but hey, when you can’t readily controvert the point of the guy you are arguing with, just attribute a position to him you can controvert and go from there. That’s a typical tact in these conversations but it is intellectually dishonest.

I get your point. That I disagree with it does not mean that I don’t understand what you are saying. I think this discussion has reached its logical closing point. Fire away with a witty, dismissive retort. Last word is all yours.

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 9:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually most of the eye-witness account

of the plus minus system is adjusted by the fact that the computer program running with the video displays ball speed and vector and generates a predetermined range in total distance that the player should be able to cover . If he doesn’t cover that measured distance to get to the ball, it is a minus, if he does it is a plus. If it is outside of the calculated range and he doesn’t get it he gets neither.

I am having a difficult time in trying to figure out where the human error component comes into play. And even if human error some how come into play, the fact that the the % of those borderline plays would be so small overall it would get drowned out in the rest of the study. You are talking about what 5 or 6 instances that might fall on the line in a range vector out of over 600 occurrences is not statistically significantly enough to really hurt the survey.

Even if the “eye of the beholder” theory played true in some instances, you could elevate that by using several years of data which would easily allow for establishing a pattern.

Irregardless, using a single season or mult-season data, he is a sub standard defensive guy. He has no range.

by laxtonto on Jan 9, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

+1

+/- doesn’t have some human memory of “oh, another dude didn’t make that play.” Every single batted ball is broken down in to a trajectory, location and speed, and if someone makes it, it’s a plus, and if someone doesn’t, it’s a minus. Then there are other workings, such as park factors and other such things that you’d probably want to be a regular poster at a place like Baseball Fever to really start to understand.

And, of course, the flaws in that are evident just from the idea, but it’s not some subjective human observation made up as he goes along. There’s an objective system to it that’s pretty damn thorough. Combining it with other thorough, intelligently designed defensive measure is a great idea, but if you’re going to call something else better, there has to be a reason for it other than the fact that it likes Michael Young more.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

See, here's the problem.

You don’t actually understand how plus/minus works.

The post above highlighted this a little bit better.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This is exactly my point

Nobody here is implying that Young is the worst SS in the league. I don’t recall seeing anyone here ever doing so. That, however, is where Young supporters (such as yourself, apparently) like to take this, and that’s why it gets beaten into the ground and becomes so frustrating.

For the record, I personally think MY has a few years of average/fringe above average production in him – at third base. My beef is I don’t think the guy can adequately play shortstop anymore and I fear he might be on the verge of a Buddy Bell-like late career decline – but you can’t say so without being labeled a “hater” for it and seeing massive diatribes about why MY is infallible written in the media.

Did Jon Daniels downsize your old position at Dunking Donuts?

by lonestarJon on Jan 8, 2009 11:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

P/K/B.

Those on the other side of your position can level identical complaints about the backlash that occurs anytime somebody says something good about MY.

I’m not sure if anyone has actually said he’s the worst shortstop in the league, but Cahill has probably come close a few times. On the flip side though, I don’t see many claiming he’s God’s gift to shortstops either.

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 12:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think that's true

You have to take into account the fact that the media (and therefore popular opinion) is on the side of MY. I do agree with what you said in your comment above about both sides being way too heated in dscourse about MY, but I don’t think those that think MY is infallable have much room to level complain about “backlash” for their opinons, at least definitely not on the same level the critics do.

Did Jon Daniels downsize your old position at Dunking Donuts?

by lonestarJon on Jan 9, 2009 12:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Isn't This An Issue of Extremes?

One ‘side’ saying Young is possibly not worth Lowrie straight up regardless of contract. The other ‘side’ expecting Teix-like return (though to be fair AJM brought up a Teix-like return in this instance, not Reeves; there is no deification in the Reeves blog post). I think the ‘truth’ is somewhere in between.

IMO, MY is a solid ball player…still…particularly when all fingers are working. His contract especially in this economy is extremely player friendly.

This must be the straw that broke camel’s back or someting because Reeves’ post is pretty bland. No mention of Teix or ‘huge haul’.

by atlantaranger on Jan 8, 2009 10:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

For what it's worth ...

I’ve never heard anybody say that a MY trade should bring back a Tex package. In fact, I think most folks agree that his contract is probably not movable for anything of significant value.

by Athos on Jan 8, 2009 11:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder if there would be this much MY-hate

If Andrus wasn’t in the system.

by hiafex on Jan 8, 2009 10:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

irrelevant

dude’s not even ML ready. The “hate” is there b/c he’s grossly overpaid and acts like he’s some superstar team leader with no sense of humor. When in reality he hasn’t hit for shit in several years and his D is a liability.

W: "Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

by hubcityraider on Jan 9, 2009 12:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow.

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 12:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

???????

Did MY sleep with your mom or something…sheesh

and everyone else besides you guys thinks hes a great SS

GG…AS votes

but hey, the guy definitely sucks

by Horns130 on Jan 9, 2009 4:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think this will look like a pretty foolish post come next August.

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Jan 8, 2009 10:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

AJM hates MY

now I’m going to go cry myself to sleep. :(

"And the Rangers looking to win it! The Rangers have won it!"
-- Josh Lewin, Sept 23, 2004

by Agreen07 on Jan 8, 2009 11:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

more played out...

this debate, or the catcher to boston discussion?

i wish the rangers would just come out and say they won’t do anything this winter so i can stop paying attention until February 14th.

by clark on Jan 8, 2009 11:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

This one.

When he got the gold glove I thought the board was going to erupt into civil war. That issue was beaten to death and then beaten until the corpse was hardly recognizable. Then it was molested, spat on, and finally buried beneath a bridge near a New Jersey construction site. Every so often, we still venture out to piss on its grave for nostalgia’s sake.

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 12:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You know

I had forgotten about him winning the GG until tonight. Seriously, I had. That’s how insignificant I thought that whole issue really was.

Did Jon Daniels downsize your old position at Dunking Donuts?

by lonestarJon on Jan 9, 2009 12:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, I forget regularly.

Though, every time, it makes me rage. And with MY it’s just a little worse than your normal GG, because I deal with the MY homers regularly.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 1:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So if somebody disagrees with your ...

worship of the fielding bible’s methodology and doesn’t think MY’s award was so ridiculous, they’re just being a homer?

That’s just a tad arrogant … especially when both the award and the basis for your disagreement with it are based upon subjective interpretations of different observers. There’s room for disagreement. I don’t think either side has anything that can be called uncontrovertable proof.

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 2:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

worship of the fielding bible’s methodology and doesn’t think MY’s award was so ridiculous, they’re just being a homer?

Nope.

Would that belief be as arrogant as assuming someone else’s opinion when you’re incorrect?

You misread my post quite horribly.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 3:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And I can't tell if you're a troll or not.

Because that’s at least the second time in this thread you’ve attacked an opinion I have neither expressed nor hold.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 4:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

See

My sig line.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Jan 9, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I've thought about it very many times in this thread.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 2:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Go back and look at all the stories and fanposts ...

where it was argued incessantly and it’ll all come back to you.

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 2:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd rather not, thanks

All I remember is the only thing that was more ridiculous than him receiving the award was the amount of bickering that went on afterward. Bickering that I admitteldly partook in, but hey, that’s all this site was for about a week was GG talk.

Did Jon Daniels downsize your old position at Dunking Donuts?

by lonestarJon on Jan 9, 2009 3:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The biggest thing with that

was simply that there weren’t many good options in the AL. Young definitely wasn’t the best option, but he wasn’t one of the worst in the AL last season and everyone treated his GG award as if he was.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 9, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I may have to go back and read them. . .

. . . but that seems kind of extreme. I don’t remember many people acting like he was the worst and won an award. I think a lot of people treated the Nate McLouth Gold Glove as much worse, and I’ll bet just about everyone, if not everyone, would agree.

I think most people treated it as bad and wrong. And bad and wrong is bad and wrong, whether he’s the worst or just merely way below average.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 2:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Fielding Bible

He was also 11th for shortstops in the fielding bible, easily not the worst. No one has really said he was the worst shortstop on here or any other places that I’ve seen. Just not nearly good enough for a gold glove.

Mike Grouse Interview - Rangers' Midwest Cross Checker

by Andy Seiler on Jan 9, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

Hell, by just about any measure I put stock in, he was better than I’d expect. But certainly not a Gold Glover.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

he was higher

when you only include the AL like the Gold Glove awards do. If I remember right, I think he was 3rd.

Maybe no one said he was the worst, but AJM was posting and talking about it a lot on how he didn’t deserve the GG at all and the majority of posts here were talking about how much he didin’t deserve it and used this as an example of why the GG picks are terrible.

And what is up with people taking things so literally. Okay, you won’t find many direct quotes saying Young was the worst SS in the league last year, but you’ll find few posts saying it wasn’t that bad of a choice.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 9, 2009 5:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you’ll find few posts saying it wasn’t that bad of a choice.

I would hope to not find any posts saying that a really bad choice for Gold Glove wasn’t that bad. It was bad. It was very bad.

It was, amazingly, not even the worst this year, but it was bad.

Also, I’m not really sure where MY ranked in the AL in plus/minus (I assume what he means by Fielding Bible ranks), but it was no higher than 4th, and I’ll bet it was a bit lower. The highest player from the AL I know of was Jed Lowrie, who was a +8 and 3rd and in the top 10 in baseball. MY was 27th in baseball and a -7.

He was 6th in the AL in UZR.

It was an example of why the Gold Gloves are terrible.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 7:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Here's this

This is what I was thinking of when I said Young was top 3. Adam posted this article a little while ago.
John Dewan talks about Young winning the gold glove.
Dewan mentions in the last paragraph how Young came in 11th in the fielding bible voting, but 8 of the guys in the top 10 were in the NL.

Also looking back at the stories around that time, Adam describes Young winning the GG as a total joke and proof of why the “gold glove balloting is the biggest joke in baseball.”

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 9, 2009 11:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But, it was a joke.

How is it not? He was not a good fielder, there were definitely better in his league, there’s no reason to think he was the best, but he won an award as the best.

That’s a joke. That happens all the time, and just becuase MY is a Ranger doesn’t mean it’s not a joke.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 10, 2009 4:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He was 3rd in the fielding bible voting

and one of the players ahead of him didn’t even play 100 games at the position. I don’t think the voters wanted another Raffy situation so what you’re looking at is the 2nd player in the Fielding Bible voting who actually played a full season won the award. Its still a bad choice, but come on. McLouth winning the GG in the NL is a joke, not Young.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 10, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

McLouth and MY winning are BOTH jokes.

A below average player who is nowhere near the best in his league winning the GG is a joke. Just because MY is a Ranger and there was a worse pick that year doesn’t make him a joke.

Also, why are you emphasizing the FB voting so much? While that may be a smarter panel than vote for the GGs, is it suddenly flawless? He only got 17 points, and we dont’ know where those points come from. Why is a voting panel, which includes a fan poll and a guy who voted for Derek Jeter, getting so much weight from you, but not things like +/- or UZR?

Beyond that, that DOES NOT even mean that panel thinks he was the third best shortstop in the AL. They each voted for 10 players in all of MLB, and somewhere he collected enough votes to finish 3rd in the AL. That thing happens with ballots, you shouldn’t be putting that much weight on someone who doesn’t even make the top 10 on a 10 spot ballot.

Finally, even if MY was the 3rd best shortstop in the AL, if he was clearly not the best — which he wasn’t — then it’s a joke. Plain and simple. And if you want to rule out Aybar, what is your excuse for them not voting for Cabrera? And that’s just limiting it to the ranks in the FB awards (which I think is silly, anyway).

Michael Young was not a good fielder last season. He was good for Michael Young. He was also nowhere near the best in the AL. Him winning the Gold Glove was a joke. I’m sorry, Gdawg, I have no beef with you, but you really, really sound like a homer here saying it’s not.

If you don’t think a bad choice is a joke, then whatever, that’s subjective. I think any bad choice is a joke, and Michael Young was very clearly a bad choice.

The Jeter Gold Gloves get a lot of crap, and by some measures he was about average in those years.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 10, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This

Is an amazing amount of back and forth over an acknowledged fact, wherein avid fans are arguing degrees of less than perfect. Wow.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Jan 10, 2009 4:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think there's such a thing as a bad choice without it being considered a total joke

I think OU going to the BCS championship is a bad choice, but not a total joke. I think USC apprently ranking ahead of UT is a bad choice, but not a joke.

And the reason I put emphasis on the fielding bible voting is because they are some well respected writers and analysts of baseball.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 10, 2009 6:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Some of them are.

A couple of them are also jokes. I’d like to see how voted for MY and where, but he didn’t even get enough points to show up on the list they gave.

As far as the joke thing, that’s subjective, I can’t tell you you’re wrong, I suppose. But I don’t see how Adam was wrong in calling it a joke. I think an obviously bad award is a joke.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 10, 2009 9:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Michael Young

I realized last night, Tim Tebow is the Michael Young or Derek Jeter of college football. Good player but vastly overrated by the media and fans because he plays the game the right way and is a leader.

Just because you are a leader, and have “the good face” doesn’t make you great.

I say this as a Michael Young fan, I like the guy as a player and would want him on my team but I acknowledge the fact that he isn’t the best at his position.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Jan 9, 2009 6:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

If MY were a FA....

What kind of contract would he get right now? Four years / $40 million? $50 million?

The problem with Young is — first and foremost — that he’s getting $16 million a year on a club that has a $70 million payroll budget and he’s worth, at best, $10 million right now. And it’s highly likely he’ll be worth a whole lot less than that in a couple of years.

Great guy, good player but clearly not a $16 million a year guy, especially on a club like this one.

by mjh on Jan 9, 2009 7:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

My other problem

is that in some folks minds, you can’t discuss moving him from his position.

If Andrus makes it to the show, and has the promise some believe, I hope MY will move to another position.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Jan 9, 2009 7:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe I'm mis-remembering ...

but hasn’t MY already received something like $20m of his extension in bonus money so he’s actually costing about $12m per season now? I can’t remember where I read that, but it was somewhere within the last couple of months.

by Athos on Jan 9, 2009 9:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think it has come to light

that MY has been paid enough in bonuses already that the remaining value of the contract is 5/62. This would make MY overpaid by $2 mil/yr. Is this enough difference from the often stated value of $10 mil that everyone throws around as MY’s value to be making this big of a deal about?
One thing seems to permeate the conversation whether explicitly or implicitly. MY is overpaid at $16 mil which is a very reasonable premise. If he’s really going to be paid $12 mil/yr going forward , I think this premise loses a lot of its steam. Almost any sub 35 year old vet with a lot of positive performance history gets paid close to this without having the team ties that MY has.
If one continues to have the dismissive attitude about MY that is often depicted on this blog with these facts coming to light, then one has to really question whether: 1) there is MY hate being voiced and/or 2) MY get misplaced anger directed at him that really should be directed at the non-blogsphere media.

by mcgee48c on Jan 9, 2009 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs

Very clear and cogent

Good take.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Jan 9, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No it's not.

Cause even if that’s true, you absolutely have to take into account the extra 20mm or so we paid him already for these next 5 years.

We paid him 80 million fucking dollars for the privilege of having him for the next five years and the fact that we’ve already paid some of it out doesn’t make it any better.

We screwed the pooch oh so badly on this contract.

It’s our worst contract ever, imo, CHoP be damned.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

So last Friday I’m at a bar. I take this guy home. He’s a little fat. Whatever, right? Plus, chubsters are so grateful, they usually try harder. Anyway, right in the middle of things, he’s sweating and grunting like a hairy rhino and I just start to hate myself. Really, really hate myself… So, without even thinking, I just head butt him right in the face. Bam. Clock him right between the eyes. Knock him out cold. So, that’s what I got. What you got going on?

by thedirkatron on Jan 10, 2009 7:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Heh

Sincerely sorry that you are so unhappy. I tend to think what’s done, is done, so move on. I don’t get either of past dealing angst or revisionist history that includes “shoulda, coulda”.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Jan 10, 2009 10:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Um, I'm not unhappy.

I just think it’s silly to try to pretend the MY contract isn’t at the very least one of the two worst contract this team has ever given out.

I actually really like Michael Young. I love having him on my team.

I fail to see how I’m engaging in revisionist history. If we can’t talk about the past, then what the hell are we doing here? It’s not like I’m constantly harping on the Danks or Hafner trades or something. The topic of the FFace contract came up, someone else made a dumb point about it, you made a comment indicating how smart you thought said dumb point was, and I gave my opinion regarding how dumb I thought the original dumb point was.

But thanks for being pompous about it and talking down to me with those passive aggressive swipes… That part was cute.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

So last Friday I’m at a bar. I take this guy home. He’s a little fat. Whatever, right? Plus, chubsters are so grateful, they usually try harder. Anyway, right in the middle of things, he’s sweating and grunting like a hairy rhino and I just start to hate myself. Really, really hate myself… So, without even thinking, I just head butt him right in the face. Bam. Clock him right between the eyes. Knock him out cold. So, that’s what I got. What you got going on?

by thedirkatron on Jan 10, 2009 8:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I just think it’s silly to try to pretend the MY contract isn’t at the very least one of the two worst contract this team has ever given out.

Considering the contract is just starting now, we can’t be sure at all how it will turn out. Odds are it will be a pretty bad deal, but we can’t know anything quite yet.

Mike Grouse Interview - Rangers' Midwest Cross Checker

by Andy Seiler on Jan 10, 2009 8:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree it's a bad contract, but

to say it’s worse than Park’s is hyperbole.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Jan 11, 2009 5:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Think of it as

paying Young what he was worth in 2007 and 2008. So Young wasn’t that great of a bargain at 7.5 million or so over the past 2 years.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jan 10, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's ridiculous.

It’s cuddly and feel good, but I would much rather my team try and spend their money wisely in terms of competition than overpay a player because they had him signed to a good deal before. That’s insane business.

You’re basicaly saying a mistake now is okay because of a smart move before. Why not just try and avoid mistakes, instead of trying to break even?

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 10, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Cuddly or otherwise

I know maybe a hundred people, corporate executives, who never did “Peter Principle” out prior to high job nomination, some until retirement, whose compensation covered yield or past benefit (asset gain or lower unit cost attributable to them). I suppose you’d like max salary on entry, and hope to use it wisely over the years as it declines, tied to perceived current productivity level. Hey, it’s professional sports. Shit happens, including long term payback as *negotiated" by player agents.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Jan 10, 2009 4:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

+1,000,000

I can’t believe this is even being argued.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

So last Friday I’m at a bar. I take this guy home. He’s a little fat. Whatever, right? Plus, chubsters are so grateful, they usually try harder. Anyway, right in the middle of things, he’s sweating and grunting like a hairy rhino and I just start to hate myself. Really, really hate myself… So, without even thinking, I just head butt him right in the face. Bam. Clock him right between the eyes. Knock him out cold. So, that’s what I got. What you got going on?

by thedirkatron on Jan 10, 2009 8:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

He's reported at 6.2 last year.

Which isn’t overpaying, but I think it will be going forward, and I don’t pretend to be certain we yet know exactly how his contract is allocated.

And are we certain the signing bonus isn’t effecting the cost cutting plans today?

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No. As stated above: We piad 80mm for these next five years. It's not a 5/60 contract, it's a 5/80 contract, and it's a horrible, horrible deal.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

So last Friday I’m at a bar. I take this guy home. He’s a little fat. Whatever, right? Plus, chubsters are so grateful, they usually try harder. Anyway, right in the middle of things, he’s sweating and grunting like a hairy rhino and I just start to hate myself. Really, really hate myself… So, without even thinking, I just head butt him right in the face. Bam. Clock him right between the eyes. Knock him out cold. So, that’s what I got. What you got going on?

by thedirkatron on Jan 10, 2009 7:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

AJM over the top here

The argument is an over-the-top analysis based almost entirely on metrics. It doesn’t take into account Young’s 2 broken fingers, or Young’s likely ability to bounce back and get to the 200 hit mark. You also can’t discount his leadership in the locker room and his track record with runners on base, 2 out hitting, and 2 strike hitting.

Don’t get me wrong, Newberg is over the top in his man-love for Young, but AJM is over the top in his Anti-Newbergness here.

by mattrpav on Jan 9, 2009 9:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

x

You also can’t discount his leadership in the locker room and his track record with runners on base, 2 out hitting, and 2 strike hitting.

His leadership in the locker room has meant 1 winning season since he’s been in the majors.

He has a lower OPS with 2 outs than with 0 outs or 1 out during his career.

And while I don’t think his performance with 2 strikes is really relevant, his career OPS with two strikes is 582. Yippee.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 9, 2009 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Which is 206 points less than his career OPS

While ARod has a 265 point difference in career OPS and 2 strike career OPS.

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Jan 9, 2009 9:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So what?

I still don’t see what that has to do with anything.

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 9, 2009 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely nothing.

That wasn’t in all seriousness.

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Jan 9, 2009 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

His leadership in the locker room has meant 1 winning season since he’s been in the majors.

OK, that’s overboard.

by oc on Jan 9, 2009 10:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Young’s likely ability to bounce back and get to the 200 hit mark.

Why is this likely and what’s so important about 200 hits?

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 9, 2009 3:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I do think...

the title for this post is a little harsh.

It does seem to imply that Young isn’t a good player now, although I know you haven’t said that AJM. I don’t believe him to be a “really good” player right now, but I do still think he’s a pretty good player. Plus his popularity amongst most Ranger fans plays a big part into what the media in that area is going to say about MY. If the media there said MY and Lowrie were basically the same player right now (which I do believe, with the slight edge to MY) most Ranger fans would be pretty pissed off.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Jan 9, 2009 6:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Why? He's not really good anymore. At best he's now merely "good". Probably more like "slightly above average". Do you disagree? You still think he's really good?

The 40 Trumps All!!!

So last Friday I’m at a bar. I take this guy home. He’s a little fat. Whatever, right? Plus, chubsters are so grateful, they usually try harder. Anyway, right in the middle of things, he’s sweating and grunting like a hairy rhino and I just start to hate myself. Really, really hate myself… So, without even thinking, I just head butt him right in the face. Bam. Clock him right between the eyes. Knock him out cold. So, that’s what I got. What you got going on?

by thedirkatron on Jan 10, 2009 7:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah I do disagree...

with the idea that “he’s not really good anymore or slightly above average.”

As I said, “really” good, no. “Pretty” good or just “good”, yes. I still think MY is a good player. Especially if they get him off SS and over to 3B when Andrus is ready. Does that mean I think he’s worth the contract he has, of course not.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Jan 10, 2009 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Why do you disagree?

What is your evidence?

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 10, 2009 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

New Young Rumor

Link.

Apparently the White Sox had interest in Michael Young. Texas wanted Jermaine Dye and Aaron Poreda in return. But that’s not what is most interesting about this article from Bruce Levine. Here’s a quote:

Young, multi-talented infielder and 5-time All-Star, is in the final year of a contract and will be a free agent at the end of the 2009 season.

Wow. This wins the award for the most ignorant sentence written by a sportswriter this offseason. Completely throws off his credibility. Wow.

Mike Grouse Interview - Rangers' Midwest Cross Checker

by Andy Seiler on Jan 10, 2009 1:33 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Which part?

Multi-talented or free agent after ’09.

Just kidding MY fans.

by scoop16 on Jan 10, 2009 1:50 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Amazing...

all of this talk about how bad Young is at shortstop and how much both he and his contract hurt the team, yet the black hole at second is completely overlooked. I’d say move Kinsler to third, Young to second and bring in O. Cabrera until Elvis is in the house.

by Redcaps on Jan 10, 2009 11:18 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Why?

Kinsler will be fine at 2B. There is no “black hole” there.

MY wouldn’t be any better at 2B than he would at SS. He simply doesn’t have the range to play anywhere in the middle of the infield. Kinsler has the range to play 2B, why move him to 3B. Plus MY has the better arm for 3B.

Shuffling the entire IF will not improve the defense.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Jan 10, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What black hole at 2nd?

by Adam J. Morris on Jan 10, 2009 6:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If you want to whip out plus/minus...

to say that MY was not good, then what does that make Kinsler this past year? Besides the range stats, add in the fact that he led the majors in errors by a second baseman. There are no defensive metrics that even assume that Kinsler wasn’t bad last year.

I can’t understand the Young hate on both boards. It’s not like he held a gun to Hicks’ head and made him give him that much money. As for it crippling the Rangers’ budget, that’s pure cow shit. That’s simply an excuse used by Hicks to not spend more money. Instead of taking it out on Young, I’d take it out on Hicks not wanting to spend the money.

by Redcaps on Jan 11, 2009 9:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The worst part of these threads is that Michael Young is one of my favorite baseball players ever.

For a little while he was my very favorite. Sometimes this blog makes me feel like I hate him, though, and my love of him has definitely soured.

And it’s not just because of his performance dwindling, and it’s not the people here who are honest about him: it’s those who refuse to be.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Jan 10, 2009 5:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

This.

I really like FFace, and I love having him as a member of the only team that matters to me…

But I hate that contract so much.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

So last Friday I’m at a bar. I take this guy home. He’s a little fat. Whatever, right? Plus, chubsters are so grateful, they usually try harder. Anyway, right in the middle of things, he’s sweating and grunting like a hairy rhino and I just start to hate myself. Really, really hate myself… So, without even thinking, I just head butt him right in the face. Bam. Clock him right between the eyes. Knock him out cold. So, that’s what I got. What you got going on?

by thedirkatron on Jan 10, 2009 8:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't mean to be snarky

In fact if the ChiSox or Dodgers want to turn their Young love into a transaction, I’d applaud it because I’d trust JD and his apparatus to make it worth doing Ranger-wise. Team first. The thing I overreact to is the thinking that any support for Young the player (ignoring Young the contract) is like touching off rebuttal tinder. I guess I failed the “get the point across” test up there. I tend to see Young as a component of the team I’d like to see win its’ division (and more), and since i don’t pay the bills or negotiate compensation for the team, try to see the salary he’s getting in a rationalized perspective. Like too much money for too long a period of time equates to a kind of sunk cost, since the bill is due and payable whether he earns it or not. I don’t think an outlay of $12 million (or so) annually in the time remaining cripples the team’s ability to sign whom they want, when they want. The current tightened purse strings are as much a function of holding back in case competitiveness arrives early, as any crunch on Tom Hicks. (Albeit I think he’s feeling a couple of significant crunches, not anticipated when Young was extended that jackpot). Anyway, my bad on being brusque or pompous – I really try not to be.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)

by Ed Coffin on Jan 10, 2009 9:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Let me ask you this Dirk

Had Young not have signed that contract and say some team signed him this winter for 5/60 mil (which is what he is going to earn over the next 5 years) what would your reaction have been?

The reason I ask is because in Atlanta right now everything I have read has been fans pissed off that they let Smoltz go to another team and didn’t match Bostons offer. Even though Boston, IMO, severly overpaid for a 41 year old guy coming of a serious shoulder injury. But Smoltz was a fan favorite there and had a really good career so people didn’t want to see him go even if it meant overpaying.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Jan 10, 2009 9:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs