Evaluating Catcher Defense
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 13, 2009 2:37 PM CDT
64 comments
Driveline Mechanics has a lengthy, stat-geeky post up, seeking to find a way to quantify catcher defense in terms of runs saved, and then setting out how every catcher ranked in that regard.
Taylor Teagarden was a couple of runs belowabove average, Jarrod Saltalamacchia was right around average.
Oh, and some guy who used to play for the Rangers lapped the field...
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You mean Teagarden was a couple of runs above average.
What do tigers dream of when they take a little tiger snooze? Do they dream of mauling zebras, or Halle Berry in her Catwoman suit?
by ghtd36 on Oct 13, 2009 2:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Typo
I was thinking about what I was going to say about Salty when I was typing the first part about Teagarden.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 13, 2009 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take Moscoso and Melo.
The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...
by Kinslerhomer on Oct 13, 2009 3:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'll take just not having to look at Laird.
Hank is 7 runs below a zombie replacement at first base. Do you realize how terrible that is? Zombie’s can’t think, they’re slow, and they’re often ejected from the game for eating opposing baserunners’ brains. - Ben quantifies Hank Blalock
by lonestarJon on Oct 13, 2009 6:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So if he actually plays well you'll resort to anythign to hate him over?
by philkid3 on Oct 13, 2009 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He still had a terrible offensive season
The third-worst offensive season of any major league catcher according to Fangraphs WAR tables.
But yes, he is one of the few former Rangers who I have always hated and will always hate, no matter what. He annoyed me that much while he was here.
Hank is 7 runs below a zombie replacement at first base. Do you realize how terrible that is? Zombie’s can’t think, they’re slow, and they’re often ejected from the game for eating opposing baserunners’ brains. - Ben quantifies Hank Blalock
by lonestarJon on Oct 13, 2009 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, it's more than a bit.
Hank is 7 runs below a zombie replacement at first base. Do you realize how terrible that is? Zombie’s can’t think, they’re slow, and they’re often ejected from the game for eating opposing baserunners’ brains. - Ben quantifies Hank Blalock
by lonestarJon on Oct 13, 2009 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also, that offense is still good enough for a .9 WAR on FG before the defense.
If DF’s defensive idea is reliably accurate, that makes Laird an averagey player, which is good to have on your team, better than we had at catcher (though I still support the trade), and, well. . . actually about as good as I always thought he was.
by philkid3 on Oct 13, 2009 6:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the most important question
What would the Yankees have to kick in, along with Joba Chamberlain, for you to be willing to give up Jarrod Saltalamacchia?
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 13, 2009 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Oh, at least Phil Hughes and Austin Jackson
;)
Hank is 7 runs below a zombie replacement at first base. Do you realize how terrible that is? Zombie’s can’t think, they’re slow, and they’re often ejected from the game for eating opposing baserunners’ brains. - Ben quantifies Hank Blalock
by lonestarJon on Oct 13, 2009 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude
I’m not doing that deal unless they include Jesus Montero… then maybe… maybe I’ll think about it :)
The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...
by Kinslerhomer on Oct 13, 2009 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haywood.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
by Ryin A on Oct 13, 2009 7:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dude's a thug
and is bad for the clubhouse. Don’t want him on my team. Besides, his best years are long behind him.
by MikeEl on Oct 13, 2009 7:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
at least Salty beat Guillermo Quiroz
boy would we have looked foolish if he hadn’t.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
by clark on Oct 13, 2009 3:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Any methodology that determines that Gerald Laird is twice as good of a defender
as any other catcher in MLB has got to be a flawed and useless methodology.
by twinkilling on Oct 13, 2009 3:03 PM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Well that's sound logic.
/overthetopeyeroll
by philkid3 on Oct 13, 2009 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love the "One Man, Five Tools" reference
I didn’t realize that was known outside of LSB
"What ... 92 miles per hour?" Feldman scoffed. "That's not gas. Feliz throws gas."
by NorCalRangersFan on Oct 13, 2009 3:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah I didn't either.
we are obviously influencers.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
by clark on Oct 13, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He said it on a national broadcast
when he was reading the lineup. But still, that’s got to be hard to remember.
That's why they call them business sox
by egriffey on Oct 13, 2009 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think you got Salty and Tea mixed up
Tea is +2.4 and Salty is -0.2. I can’t imagine what Salty’s rating would have been last year.
That's why they call them business sox
by egriffey on Oct 13, 2009 3:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Two of the best teams in the majors,
the Yankees and Angels, have two of the worst catchers according to this? Think i’d rather have Posada or Napoli on my team over Laird. Not so sure about this analysis.
by jcAustin on Oct 13, 2009 3:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Defensively?
I don’t think there’s any question Laird is better than Napoli defensively. Or Posada, for that matter, given Posada’s arm issues.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 13, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't explain myself well but
my point is this, catcher is a very important defensive position, maybe THE most important defensive position, and my question is how can the Angels and Yankees be doing so well with so much suck at the most important defensive position? They are arguably the best two teams in the MLB, right? Is it ok if your catcher sux defensively? No. But somehow the teams with the worst defensive catchers (according to this analysis) are perhaps the two best teams in baseball. I don’t dispute that Laird is better than Napoli or Posada at throwing runners out or blocking balls, but my reaction to this metric is, who cares? If it’s a metric that ranks Laird and Jojima over Mauer or Yadier Molina, or Victor Martinez i say, fine, you take Jojima for your team, i’ll take Napoli.
by jcAustin on Oct 13, 2009 10:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think myself this just goes to show that catcher defense isn't actually that important
If that’s what you’re driving at here, then I agree.
Hank is 7 runs below a zombie replacement at first base. Do you realize how terrible that is? Zombie’s can’t think, they’re slow, and they’re often ejected from the game for eating opposing baserunners’ brains. - Ben quantifies Hank Blalock
by lonestarJon on Oct 14, 2009 12:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, i think catcher defense is very important,
this analysis doesn’t accurately rank it though. And even if it does, it’s a silly exercise because the ranking is so far from the rank of who you’d actually want playing catcher for your team.
by jcAustin on Oct 14, 2009 1:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure how that makes it a silly exercise.
Quantifying defense is extremely valuable to evaluation. No one is suggesting you ignore the contributions of offense.
by philkid3 on Oct 15, 2009 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the problem
You’re engaging in faulty assumptions.
You assume catcher is a very important defensive position, maybe the most important.
Then you assume that the Yankees and the Angels must at least have decent defensive catchers, because they are arguably the two best teams in baseball.
Then you look and see that Posada and Napoli are at the bottom of this ranking, and thus you assume that the rankings must be flawed, because Posada and Napoli can’t be bad defensive catchers.
A big part of the reason Napoli is only a part-time player, though, is because the Angels think he’s terrible defensively. That’s why Scioscia plays Jeff Mathis so much.
And Posada is old, can’t throw any more (there was some question about whether he’d even be able to catch this year after his offseason elbow surgery), and simply isn’t as agile as he used to be. I don’t understand why it would be a stretch to assume that he’s not a good defensive catcher at this point.
As Cahill points out elsewhere, the spread between the best and worst catchers isn’t so great that a bad defensive catcher is going to kill you.
And besides, the Yanks have won a ton of games with a bad defensive shortstop…and shortstop is a pretty important defensive position.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 14, 2009 10:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're always saying how important defense is Adam,
and i agree with you. But according to this analysis the two best teams have two of the worst defensive catchers, so either defense isn’t that important, or this analysis is wrong. My conclusion, this analysis is wrong. I’m not saying Napoli is better defensively than Laird, i’m saying this analysis is missing the boat somehow. There’s so much to the defensive side of catching, fielding bunts, calling pitches (which entails knowing the hitters and pitchers,) working the umps, framing pitches. Just don’t think this study is painting an accurate total picture of defense at catcher.
And i will add this question, even with the absolute lack of production we got from catcher this year, did you really miss OMFT? Not romantically but as a baseball player.
by jcAustin on Oct 14, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Team defense is important.
but some positions impact more plays than others (SS, CF).
C would be important if a good C could lower pitchers ERAs, but I am completely unaware of any studies that indicate that.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Oct 14, 2009 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or. . .
. . . defense is really important but possible to overcome. Especially when it’s one position.
That’s also a really sucky, extremely unscientific way to come to a conclusion. You should look for the flaws and mistakes in the methodology, not confirmation of your preconcieved notions.
by philkid3 on Oct 15, 2009 8:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you believe this analysis
correctly depicts the rank of MLB catchers on defense? And since when is being scientific a requirement for posting on this blog? Your comment is really sucky.
by jcAustin on Oct 15, 2009 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The list goes with my impression of who is good and bad defensively
Actually, I agree quite a bid on the bad defensive catchers – Napoli, Posada, AJ, Buck, Tek, Russell Martin, McCann, V-Mart. They all seem to me to be not-great defensive catchers. I’m no
It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone. You count on it, rely on it to buffer the passage of time, to keep the memory of sunshine and high skies alive, and then just when the days are all twilight, when you need it most, it stops.
by WyoRanger on Oct 13, 2009 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, you're actually surprised that Laird pwns Posada on defense?
Have you ever watched Posada? Have you ever looked at how absolutely attrocious he is at stopping baserunners?
Sure, that’s not evidence, it’s anecdote, but I can’t imagine anyone who has ever seen much of Jorge Posada could possibly be surprised by this.
by philkid3 on Oct 13, 2009 6:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I only scanned the text of the article
But noticed ‘caught stealing’ was a pretty important element of the catcher ratings. Doesn’t that sort of discount the study, since CS and CS% are very often a byproduct of the pitchers’ delivery rate and situational pitch selection?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -
"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce
by Ed Coffin on Oct 13, 2009 4:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Having not yet looked at the formula. . .
. . . I don’t think anyone’s ever said stolen bases are entirely pitchers. Most people nowadays just find the evidence to suggest it is (by a lot) mostly on pitchers.
So if it’s only partly on pitchers, then catchers should still be measured for their part in it. And depending on how much else goes in to measurable catching defense, the small SB/CS pie might be a large or small part of the catching defense pie.
by philkid3 on Oct 13, 2009 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Having now glanced at the formula, it does seem like all the credit for a CS is given to catchers.
Which would not make sense, as you allude to. I don’t think. I could be wrong as, again, I just glanced.
by philkid3 on Oct 13, 2009 6:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And the love...
for OMFT continues.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Oct 13, 2009 4:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I suppose...
we’ve all had our players that we liked more than we probably should have.
I think my guy was Dean Palmer. He was an alright player, but for some reason I always thought of him as being great.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Oct 13, 2009 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i liked OMFT while he was here
but he is a really easy guy to root against.
Min-Det game, top of the 11th (or 12th?). That was awesome.
"I just want to comment on how it’s become like a common thing in the [MLB] for guys to fall in love with [the Rangers’s] sloppy seconds." (thanks cstorm)
by ab03 on Oct 13, 2009 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I never got the hate for him while he was here.
What did he do, other than be underrated?
by philkid3 on Oct 13, 2009 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Underrated?
While here he was roughly equivalent to Barajas, and you know how much Barajas hate came his way. In fact, Barajas was a better offensive player.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Oct 13, 2009 6:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, underrated.
Seemed like people couldn’t wait to get rid of him. I approved of the trade when they did, but nto because I merely wanted him out of town.
I wasn’t around for the Barajas era, but I think he, too, is underrated by the general baseball interweb society and the media.
by philkid3 on Oct 13, 2009 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The most striking thing
about catchers compared to other positions is how little differentiation there is between an average catcher and a replacement level catcher.
At any rate, these defensive metrics that are primarily weighted towards base stealing are always kind of bogus, since base stealing depends almost as much on the pitcher as catcher.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Oct 13, 2009 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barajas hate
Barajas was hated mostly because of the hatred of Buck and the perception that Laird would flourish if Buck just stopped sitting him so much (sounds a lot like the last couple years here).
I was fine with the Laird trade, but I was definitely not with the large group of people who wanted a trade, any trade last winter just so we didn’t have too many catchers or some nonsense.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Oct 13, 2009 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
One thing of note there
Mike Napoli is dead last at -9.7 runs, and Jeff Mathis is solidly below average at -2.1 runs.
So much for “Mike Scoscia gets the most out of his catchers.”
Hank is 7 runs below a zombie replacement at first base. Do you realize how terrible that is? Zombie’s can’t think, they’re slow, and they’re often ejected from the game for eating opposing baserunners’ brains. - Ben quantifies Hank Blalock
by lonestarJon on Oct 13, 2009 6:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
LMAO
Joe Mauer’s +4.3 is good, but he’s not the best in baseball or the league, and that certainly doesn’t make him a better MVP candidate than Zack Greinke.
Whether I agree or disagree, just inserting that in there is a wicked display of bias. Heh.
by philkid3 on Oct 13, 2009 6:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Another note. . .
Previous attempts at quantifying catcher defense, primarily from John Dewan, have found that the best catcher in the league is usually only worth only maybe two wins more in the field than the worst. That’s just about exactly what this here states. That is, at least, a good sign.
by philkid3 on Oct 13, 2009 6:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, most of the time
the numbers say replacement level and average level aren’t all that far apart.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Oct 13, 2009 7:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
While reading the thread
I kept coming to the same conclusion. The difference (defensively) of a MLB Catcher from worst to best is fairly small (i.e. blocking balls, fielding bunts, etc.). Also, the floor for the MLB catcher is such that all of them bring solid defensive prowess. In other words, no team will have a catcher who can’t block a curve ball.
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by Parman on Oct 14, 2009 7:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Piazza's defensive skills
were underrated. He wasn’t nearly as bad as folks make him out.
I still think most of it is covered by Nichol’s law of catcher’s defense.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Oct 14, 2009 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My boy Ryan Hanigan continues to offer proof he's the shit.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Beware 2011: The Fortypocalypse is Nigh...
by thedirkatron on Oct 14, 2009 1:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Now if he could just hit the weight room and improve upon that .341 career SLG and 0.75 ISO
Hank is 7 runs below a zombie replacement at first base. Do you realize how terrible that is? Zombie’s can’t think, they’re slow, and they’re often ejected from the game for eating opposing baserunners’ brains. - Ben quantifies Hank Blalock
by lonestarJon on Oct 14, 2009 2:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I still think it's hilarious he didn't even start at catcher at Rollins while we were there.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
Beware 2011: The Fortypocalypse is Nigh...
by thedirkatron on Oct 14, 2009 9:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
more mustache.
"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz
by Ryin A on Oct 14, 2009 5:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
problem with the analysis
The problem with the analysis is that it is event driven and ignores plays that are non-events. A pitch in the dirt that the catcher blocks is a non-event. An errant throw to 2B that the 2B or SS keeps from going into CF only results in a SB and not a SB and E2. It also ignores high leverage situations. A PB with a runner on 1B it not as important as a PB with a runner on 3B.
|Space for Rent|
by RangerMad on Oct 14, 2009 8:06 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Most defensive analysis
for catchers is pretty craptastic, and tends to overvalue success at the running game, because those are the easiest events to capture.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Oct 14, 2009 8:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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