Could Feliz be our Adam Wainwright?
by bigsteve on Oct 8, 2009 6:59 PM CDT
Email
PrintAs I sit here and watch a little bit of the Dodgers/Cardinals game, after catching up on some TIVOd shows, it gets me thinking. Everybody here is all up in arms over what to do with Feliz next year and the majority feel he needs to be in the rotation. My stance on the whole issue has been well known. I feel and felt from the time he got moved to the pen in OKC that was the signal he was going to be transitioned into a reliever full time. I have softened somewhat on that. I don't feel as strongly that he is going to be a permanent reliever but what if he is a reliever all of next year? Would that be the worst thing in the world? What if he did what Adam Wainwright did?
This idea came from watching Wainwright pitch. So I went to B-R and looked at his career numbers. Very impressive. But he spent his first full season in the majors at age 24 in the bullpen. St Louis won the World Series that year. Now im not saying Feliz in the pen would guarantee us a WS next year but look at that Cardinals team, and staff in particular and it wasn't like they had 5 Cy Youngs in the rotation ahead of him.
They had Chris Carpenter at the top who had a great year. They had a solid #2 in Suppan who threw 190 innings with a 4.12 ERA but not great peripherals. A K/9 under 5 and over 3 BB/9 while giving up over a hit per inning. Then its a grab bag of Jason Marquis who gave them 33 starts and over 194 innings but had an ERA north of 6. And the back of their rotation was pieced together between Mark Mulder (93 IP, 7.14 ERA), 24 year old Anthony Reyes (85 IP, 5.06 ERA), Jeff Weaver (83 IP, 5.18 ERA), and Sidney Ponson (68 IP, 5.24 ERA).
Their bullpen was really good however with Wainwright playing a key role as a setup man for Jason Ishringhausen.
So while right now we look to go into 2010 with a rotation of Millwood, Feldman, Holland, Hunter, McCarthy I am thinking its more and more logical to keep Feliz in the pen next year at age 22 and roll with those 5 along with guys like Harrison and Nippert, etc.
I fully realize the NL Central is not the ALWest and that the Cards won their division with only 83 wins but I think with a resurgence from Hamilton and Davis, more consistency from Cruz and Kins, along with continued development for Elvis and Borbon and other guys Feliz may be better for us next year out of the pen late in games and then transition him back to a starter in 2011.
Let the flaming begin
26 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
we also have
Strop, who is going to figure into the bullpen mix as a hard thrower. We can, also, sign a guy like Kiko Calero or Rafael Soriano. Mike Gonzalez would be another nice target to possibly sign for our pen. There are plenty of pitchers out there to relieve ball games, there are few TORPS out there. and they cost more money.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Right now im not advocating sticking Feliz in the pen permanently
Just next year. Wainwright went from the pen in 2006 to the rotation in 2007 and made 30+ starts and threw 200 innings with an ERA around 3.50.
I think if we have Feliz as a starter next year hes gonna be a 5+ ERA pitcher. In 2011 he may get down to sub 4 but its highly unlikely he will be that good next year. If we could get a full year of Feliz out of the pen with a ~2 ERA then in 2011 throw him into the rotation and get that same sun 4 ERA that way I think it would be better.
SOme of yall speak like Feliz is gonna come in next year and put up Cy Young numbers. Its just not gonna happen. Hes gonna struggle. If you can minimize the struggles by having him work out of the pen while allowing him that full season of ML seasoning then it could make the transition to starter virtually nil.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
My guess is they'll go after Grabow
or a second-tier specialist like that. I doubt they’ll have enough money to go after another right-handed set up man.
That's why they call them business sox
if they are contimplating signing Byrd
I think you can easily sign MIke Gonzalez or Kiko Calero. Or you could sign Grabow and Calero.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
I'd take Grabow and Benoit
The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...
by Kinslerhomer on Oct 9, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
+1
Hank is 7 runs below a zombie replacement at first base. Do you realize how terrible that is? Zombie’s can’t think, they’re slow, and they’re often ejected from the game for eating opposing baserunners’ brains. - Ben quantifies Hank Blalock
by LSJ on Oct 9, 2009 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I imagine the priorities are on a left-handed
set up man first. After that, a high OPS DH-type, and after that, catcher, after that, I’m not sure how much money will be left over.
For the sake of argument, If they sign Grabow, keep Benoit on a one-year deal, they would have a bullpen of: FX2, Ceej, O’Day, Grabow, possibly Feliz, and a competition for the last few spots between Grilli, Mathis, and possibly Hurley, Harrison, or one of the guys that doesn’t make the rotation.
Don’t get me wrong, I’d feel a lot better with another proven guy, but I think Gonzales and Soriano will want closer money/opportunity, and Calero will want to cash in on his great year.
That's why they call them business sox
i don't mind ponying up some cash for Calero as well
we have alot of money coming off the books, and we have to think about 2011 as well. FX2 will be a FA and Millwood’s money will be off the books. Without FX2, it would be nice to have another guy that we can sign for a couple years like Calero. Also, with our current crop of relievers, there is no garauntee that they have the same success. You can say that about any reliever you sign as well, but it is better to have more quality arms than not. Anaheim’s bullpen ended up being a weak point when they thought it was a strength.
I am not a fan of Grilli. Hurley may work for me in the pen, but he is no starter. Either way, he’ll need time in AAA to see what he can bring. I’m higher on Strop as he has pure gas. Moscoso could be ok but he still needs a little work. Wash needs more arms that he trusts. Otherwise we will only see CJ, FX2 and ODAY every night that it is close. We can always scour the waiver wire for a gem like we found this year in O’Day, but I’d rather have a couple arms. Those signings also says to the team that we are trying to fill holes and help this team win.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
You could call that the Adam Wainwright strategy...
Or you could also call it the Brandon Morrow strategy.
There’s no doubt Feliz could help out of the bullpen next year, but I don’t see how that could possibly outweigh the value he could provide as a starter later in the season or in 2011. And I don’t want to delay getting that SP value out of him any, even if it means conceding his 2010 season to some growing pains.
Furthermore, the RP market is plenty rich this winter with potential late inning guys – Mike Gonzalez, Raphael Betancourt, Rodney, Gregg, Valverde, Soriano and Wagner are all out there. Now, we probably won’t seriously be in the mix for most of those guys, but that bidding war should allow us to pick up somebody solid like Benoit, Calero, John Gabow, or Octavio Dotel. So even though there’s probably some regression to expect from the bullpen next year (coughODaycough) we should be able to add somebody who could pick up some slack to that mix.
Hank is 7 runs below a zombie replacement at first base. Do you realize how terrible that is? Zombie’s can’t think, they’re slow, and they’re often ejected from the game for eating opposing baserunners’ brains. - Ben quantifies Hank Blalock
Spending money on relievers
is not a good idea.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
Yep
look at what the Royals got for Juan Cruz. He was an inherited runners scoring machine.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
And to think
I was so upset when we wouldn’t risk losing a 2nd round pick for him last offseason.
That's why they call them business sox
I just can't comprehend
Why we would have Feliz in the pen all year. Will his innings and pitch count have to be strictly controlled as a starter? Sure. Will there be growing pains? Sure. But the reality is that a starter’s value far outweighs a reliever’s value. I feel like it is a much simpler situation than its all being made out to be.
i heard
but Wash said a while back how Feliz could effect “4 or 5 games a week as a reliever.” I believe the organization is split to a degree
If both JD and Nolan want him to be a starter,
then I bet he’ll be a starter no matter what Wash wants
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take"-Wayne Gretzky"-Michael Scott
by ReallyCreativeScreenName on Oct 8, 2009 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions
i don't recall
seeing nolan give a definitive statement that he wants Feliz in the rotation next year
Yeah
And a few people took that way too literally. I could easily see a scenario where Feliz gets in 5 games in a weeks time. Pitch Sunday, off Mon, pitch Tue and Wed, off Thur and Fri, pitch Sat and Sun.
Not every week or even most weeks but if the situation asks for it I wouldn’t be opposed to seeing him that much
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I stated that
in order to make the point that not everyone in the org is clearly in favor of Feliz starting
No, he didn't
he said he’d be a starter in spring training and put on a starters program, then they would see how it goes.
He didn’t guarantee that when the season started he’d be in the rotation.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Reread it.
There isn’t any guarantee he would start anything but spring training.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
x
I feel and felt from the time he got moved to the pen in OKC that was the signal he was going to be transitioned into a reliever full time.
This makes no sense to me.
The idea or my wording?
I admit im not the most eloquent of guys. But my theory isn’t hard to understand. If all you are going to do is break a young guy into the majors through the bullpen I don’t see the need to switch him to a reliever in the minors. I think the only reason you do that is if you are planning on keeping him as that. Otherwise leave him as a starter to get him as many innings as possible in the minors.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
The idea
I don’t see why switching him to the pen in the minors, anticipating you’re going to be bringing him up to pitch out of the pen in the majors in a few weeks in the midst of a pennant race, means he’s going to be made a reliever full-time.
But then, I’m also a believer in breaking pitchers — particularly very young, highly regarded pitchers — into the majors through the bullpen.
by Adam J. Morris on Oct 9, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
