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There should be no criticism at all of Mariano Rivera. He is just not the greatest pitcher in the history of baseball. Cy Young, Johnson, Mathewson, Feller, Koufax, Gibson, Nolan Ryan -- any of those might be.

3 months ago Th_buckykatt_tiny Adam J. Morris 52 comments 0 recs  | 

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I actually feel dumber...

after reading that pile of shit.

What a joke.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 1, 2009 11:35 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Mariano Rivera

Actually has a claim of being the greatest of all time at something, which not many people have any claim to

Go Rice Owls!

by JBImaknee on Nov 1, 2009 11:40 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Don't care

There is no legitimate argument to be made that he’s the best pitcher ever.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 1, 2009 12:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Out of curiosity...

Did you read the THT article recently about strikeout rates per era? The author makes something like a very basic K/9+ and concludes that, for the era he pitched in, Nolan struck out more batters per nine than anyone else in history.

Now, this ignores the underlying issues with using an innings-pitched-based strikeout metric (i.e., Johnson suffers because his career BB/9 rate is lower), but nevertheless…

by jwiscarson on Nov 1, 2009 3:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If you want to make the argument...

…that he’s the greatest strikeout pitcher of all time, I wouldn’t really have a quarrel with that.

But he’s still not the greatest pitcher ever. He’s not in the conversation.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 1, 2009 4:06 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay, I can buy that.

It’s hard for me to take any article’s author’s suggestions seriously, but I think Nolan, Bob Gibson, and Randy Johnson are probably the closest to “good” suggestions.

by jwiscarson on Nov 1, 2009 6:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think he was referring to Walter Johnson, not Randy Johnson

Walter Johnson and Christy Mathewson were probably the best choices from his group. Nolan isn’t in their class.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 1, 2009 7:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Satchel Paige

it would have been fun to see what he would have done with a full career in the majors, considering what he did later in life in the Bigs and what he did in the Negro Leagues. He was an amazing pitcher

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 1, 2009 9:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course. What was I thinking?

It’s just hard for me to think “all-time great” for those older pitchers in general.

by jwiscarson on Nov 1, 2009 10:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Just curious,

Which pitchers are in that conversation for you?

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Nov 1, 2009 10:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You didn't ask me, but...

Cy Young, Walter Johnson, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Steve Carlton, Warren Spahn, Christy Mathewson, Bob Gibson, and Randy Johnson.

Pedro Martinez ‘96-’00 = the greatest pitcher of all time, but I guess longevity should count for something. See also, Koufax ‘61-’66.

by JDT217 on Nov 2, 2009 9:01 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Of course...

Clemens is a cheater.

by JDT217 on Nov 2, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Also didn't ask me.

But for me it’s pretty much just Walter Johnson, with Roger Clemens (depending on how you want to judge him), Greg Maddux and the amazingly underrated Pete Alexander kind of close. I think an argument can be made for Pedro Martinez because of how unreal his peak was, as well (and Pedro > Koufax, btw).

by philkid3 on Nov 2, 2009 12:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What a strange article.

Like SLC I feel stupider having read it, which is no small accomplishment. After beleaguering my poor brain with alcohol and sleep deprivation on Halloween night, I thought I was already as stupid as I was going to get.

Thanks for linking to it Adam.

by Black Francis on Nov 1, 2009 12:16 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

A reliever cannot be the greatest pitcher ever

It’s almost impossible to determine who the greatest pitcher ever is. But it’s asinine to consider a reliever as the GPE.

by chrisR on Nov 1, 2009 2:18 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

A reliever pitches in more games

A great reliever impacts more games than a great starter. Therefore, the greatest reliever of all time is the greatest pitcher of all time.

Sincerely,
Jean-Jacques Taylor

"Feldman and Feliz and and pray for…infectious disease?"--TheJeezus on Sep 9, 2009 1:01 PM PDT

by WestTxAg06 on Nov 1, 2009 3:36 PM CST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

Well played

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Nov 1, 2009 10:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Relievers are nothing more than failed starting pitchers. You can take plenty of great starters and they’d do amazing if their job was to go 150% for one inning every other day. Rivera is one of the greatest at his role, but greatest pitcher? Child, please.

by Tex34 on Nov 1, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There is no such thing as 150% sir only 100%

2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009

by boomer1 on Nov 1, 2009 6:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I just don't feel parocial about it

To identify the greatest pitcher ever requires at minimum, simulation of every pitcher into identical circumstances and situations – probably a few thousand of them in terms of the number of situations simulated. It’s just as inane to stack career numbers including peripherals (which don’t actually exist for the oldest of the old timers) as it is to use strikeouts, wins, shutouts, no hitters, or any other episodic count to say pitcher X or pitcher Y is the greatest. I think Adam may mean to stress that by tangible measures, any given pitcher can be rated better than other given pitchers.

But I really don’t care that Green has his opinion, I’m not dumbed down by his opinions, I’m not suggesting that Ryan is any more than “one of the greats” for his accomplishments, and I don’t think it’s any more important than who was the tallest woman ever, who passed the heaviest turd ever, or who was the worst U.S. President ever. Data can be contrived for any of those cases, but you can’t be absolutely sure.

Fun, huh?

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -

"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce

by Ed Coffin on Nov 1, 2009 2:46 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Should be "feel parochial about it"

my “h” key is sticky.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -

"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce

by Ed Coffin on Nov 1, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Heaviest turd passing

I belong in that conversation.

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Nov 1, 2009 10:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think mine...

would go to Walter Johnson.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 1, 2009 6:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Mine goes to

Dontrelle Willis, Chad Gaudin and Brian Tallet.

I mean you’ve just got to tip your cap to those guys.

"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN

by lonestarJon on Nov 1, 2009 6:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome.....

….don’t forget Brett freakin Tomko

by Hard8 on Nov 1, 2009 8:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Taylor Buchholz's dominance was unforgettable

"Feldman and Feliz and and pray for…infectious disease?"--TheJeezus on Sep 9, 2009 1:01 PM PDT

by WestTxAg06 on Nov 2, 2009 6:10 AM CST via mobile up reply actions   0 recs

he was juicing his ass off in those years

"Congrats Rangers fans, you just found your replacement for Mark Teixeira. Just a crazy, crazy steal." -Goldstein

by Plum on Nov 1, 2009 6:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

OJ or Apple?

2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009

by boomer1 on Nov 1, 2009 6:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...

by Kinslerhomer on Nov 1, 2009 7:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I applaud him for that.

Since he never got caught.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Nov 2, 2009 3:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I find this article borderline hilarous

Because he’s telling us to “take baseball anylisis with a grain of salt” whilst he analyzes himself right down to the level of stupidity of those he’s trying to take a shot at.

Maybe he’s trying to make his headline’s point via supreme irony?

"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN

by lonestarJon on Nov 1, 2009 5:10 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

i will say this about Rivera

he’s got probably the greatest 1 pitch repertoire that nobody can hit

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 1, 2009 5:53 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

He actually used the word poppycock three times

What a douche. If anyone says different, I’’ll thrown down my velvet gauntlets and challenge them to a donnybrook.

Donnybrook I say!!

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Nov 1, 2009 10:09 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I've definitely heard dumber arguments than Nolan Ryan is the best pitcher ever

a) strikeout record
b) no hitter record
c) longevity — dominated over 20 seasons as a starter

Pitched in a hitters’ era. Cy Young and Walter Johnson— might be better, but it isn’t like you can come even close to objectively comparing their numbers.

I think Roger Clemens is the best ever, fwiw

by BuckyB on Nov 2, 2009 4:46 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

You forgot d) Walk record

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Nov 2, 2009 11:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's definitely a record

that will never be broken.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Nov 3, 2009 5:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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