Thinking about first basemen in history
So I was thinking about something last night, and it occurred to me that it would be an interesting topic for discussion here to see what folks at LSB think...
I think almost everyone who knows baseball would agree that Lou Gehrig was the greatest first baseman of all time. And I think almost every who knows baseball would agree that Jimmie Foxx was the second-greatest first baseman of all time.
But who is the third best first baseman of all time?
There's a ton of candidates, it seems, and no obvious answer.
Let's hear your thoughts...
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187 comments
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Comments
Eddie Murray
Grieve: The Yanks have struggled so far. - Lewin: Yeah, cry me a bag of money.
Dykstra has all the money!
ElectricOkra.com
by WhipSmart on Nov 12, 2009 11:33 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
When Albert Pujols is done
He will be the greatest of all time.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 12, 2009 11:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, probably Pujols but
I loved me some Willie McCovey from back in the day. One of most intimidating hitters I have ever seen in my life.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
by Josey Wales on Nov 12, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
totally agree. If he retired today, he would still be in the top 5. He’s absolutely dominant and has been for 5 seasons. How many other first basemen can boast the level of dominance vs other hitters that he has?
by aggiecurt05 on Nov 12, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Concur
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Nov 12, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree 100%
Brad Lidge still has nightmares about him (even after the last WS)
by chrisR on Nov 13, 2009 12:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Stan the Man
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
by willamos2 on Nov 12, 2009 11:37 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
had more games
as an outfielder, though, didn’t he?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 12, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does Jackie Robinson count?
His first season as a Dodger was at first base.
I didn't know what a mancrush was. Derek Holland showed me.
by DerekSTheRed on Nov 12, 2009 11:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Willie Stargell...
ok maybe not the best but I still liked him a lot.
Good help doesn't come cheap.
- Gil LeBreton
by BigGuns on Nov 12, 2009 11:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
*Pops* Stargell...what a beast
Good help doesn't come cheap.
- Gil LeBreton
by BigGuns on Nov 12, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Albert Pujols
will be in a couple of years. He is already in the top 8 all time by WAR according to a neat discussion over at BTB this summer (link below).
http://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2009/8/29/981776/historical-war-review-first-basemen
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 12, 2009 11:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
That's kind of crazy to think about
He’s already top 8 and not even 30 years old yet. Its going to be fun seeing who has the better career in the end, him or A-Rod
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Nov 12, 2009 12:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hank Greenberg
Harmon Killebrew.
of course, my favorite player growing up was Donnie Baseball
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by NothinG on Nov 12, 2009 11:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hank F.
Now’s the time for that 3 year, $30M extension. Going to be legendary, I tell you.
by venturafearsnolan on Nov 12, 2009 11:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Let it go man. let it go.
What do voluntary mean?
by JKolar on Nov 12, 2009 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Pujols.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"Especially stinkbeetles!!!" -God.
by thedirkatron on Nov 12, 2009 11:55 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
Pujols…#3 right now and climbing.
I reject your reality and substitute my own.
by GhostofSteveFoucault on Nov 12, 2009 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lee Stevens
I think Luke French has a lot of potential. TORP potential.-Dstar
by sprite on Nov 12, 2009 12:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Justin Smoak?
my better is better than your better.
by rangerjake on Nov 12, 2009 12:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Pujols.
He’s very likely going to be the single best when he retires, but if he were to retire today (while ironically not HOF eligible) would still be the 3rd best of all time. The man is 4th all time in SLG. 4th. Nestled right between Gehrig and Foxx. 4th in career OPS. In just 4 years, he’ll more or less have matched Foxx’s longevity (he petered out after 32 or 33) and most of his numbers.
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 12, 2009 12:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Oh
and Pujols BR most similar list through age 29 makes me sad:
1. Jimmie Foxx (887) *
2. Hank Aaron (851) *
3. Lou Gehrig (851) *
4. Ken Griffey (842)
5. Frank Robinson (834) *
6. Mickey Mantle (820) *
7. Juan Gonzalez (795)
8. Mel Ott (794) *
9. Hank Greenberg (787) *
10. Orlando Cepeda (774) *
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 12, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That is an astonishing list
as his Pujols’ list of most similar by age:
21. Joe DiMaggio (962) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
22. Joe DiMaggio (939) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
23. Joe DiMaggio (955) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
24. Joe DiMaggio (933) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
25. Joe DiMaggio (911) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
26. Joe DiMaggio (897) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
27. Joe DiMaggio (883) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
28. Jimmie Foxx (870) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
29. Jimmie Foxx (887) * 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 C
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 12, 2009 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's really sick how good Pujols is
Top ten comps through age 29, you’ve got 9 slam-dunk Hall of Famers and one guy who had a monstrous early career. Not too shabby.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 12, 2009 12:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
DiMaggio
Just how good was DiMaggio?!
He hit like on of the greatest 1B of all-time while playing CF! Crazy.
by gr7070 on Nov 12, 2009 5:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a good point
I’ve always been inclined to just assume Dimaggio was overrated. When a guy plays CF for the highest profile of all high profile teams during their greatest period of success, he’s married to Marilyn Monroe, he is referenced in a famed pop song, etc., you naturally assume that his legend is probably greater than his actual performance
But you look at his numbers and they’re pretty staggering. His final season he posted a .787 OPS, which was the only time his OPS was below .875. 10 seasons above .900 OPS, 5 of those above 1.000, once above 1.100. Made the All-Star team every single season he played. Hit .300 all but two seasons (.290 in one season and .263 in his last season), had a three-year stretch where he hit .381, .352, and .357. Ended his career with a slash line of .325/.398/.579 and a .977 OPS. Those are great numbers no matter the position. For a center fielder, they’re incredible. Let’s also not forget that he also missed his age 28, 29, and 30 seasons due to WWII.
As an aside, Dimaggio played only 13 seasons. The Yankees went to the World Series 10 of those seasons and won 9 times. Ridiculous.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 12, 2009 5:35 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Excellent post.
I appreciate the angles you covered there.
"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris
by Chase Irwin on Nov 12, 2009 7:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and the comps aren't even all that comparable
It’s always a good tip off that someone is really special when no one is all that similar to a player. Cepeda at 774 maybe the 10th most similar but he’s not all that similar as illustrated by the fact that in only three seasons in his career did Cepeda beat Pujols career average OPS+. I think Pujols is #3 right now.
by Dalman on Nov 12, 2009 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
what's interesting about that
is the chance that Pujols’ career could downward spiral just as quickly as Foxx’s. Pujols has had arm problems the last couple of years, what are the chances that one of these days he completely screws it up?
by MikeEl on Nov 12, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you've probably got to go with Greenberg at #3
Musial would be next, but I’ve always seen him as an outfielder. He played over 1,000 games at first, but almost 1,900 in the outfield.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 12, 2009 12:09 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of 1st basemen
Who can guess this guy:
33 years old; 10 full seasons
313 home runs
.412 career OBP (31st all time; 3rd active)
.555 career SLG (24th all time; 8th active)
.967 career OPS (16th all time; 4th active)
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 12, 2009 12:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Helton
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 12, 2009 12:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Berkman
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 12, 2009 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Current player?
Dunn or Helton?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
by Josey Wales on Nov 12, 2009 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dunn is not 33.
How about Ortiz?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
by Josey Wales on Nov 12, 2009 12:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, current player
No and no
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 12, 2009 12:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Konerko?
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 12, 2009 12:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
D Lee?
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 12, 2009 12:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lee doesn't have that kind of OBP, does he?
Who would that be?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
by Josey Wales on Nov 12, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Berkman?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Nov 12, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ding ding ding!
Gotta prop up my Rice man!
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 12, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
All their arms are falling off ;)
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 12, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He always seems to be underrated by a lot of people
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Nov 12, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Think that's a winner.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
by Josey Wales on Nov 12, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Berkman
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"Especially stinkbeetles!!!" -God.
by thedirkatron on Nov 12, 2009 1:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, didn't see someone'd already gotten it.
Yah, Berkman is insanely good.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"Especially stinkbeetles!!!" -God.
by thedirkatron on Nov 12, 2009 1:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good one. So underrated.
"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris
by Chase Irwin on Nov 12, 2009 7:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does he get some consideration as a HOFer?
If, say, he averages about 20 homers and 90 RBIs a year up to around 40, and keeps taking his 80-100 walks a year?
That would give him 450 homers, which seems kinda borderline, especially playing at a premium offensive position.
Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.
by jonthefon on Nov 13, 2009 12:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he was on that trajectory until about a year and a half ago
Since then he’s been on a slump that’s he’s never climbed out of, or maybe just a career decline.
by MikeEl on Nov 13, 2009 12:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
really no love for pete o b?
i mean come on.
by rangerfannumerouno on Nov 12, 2009 12:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Pujols
Without question. He could move up the list by the end of his career.
Not mediocre. Right about average
by trza on Nov 12, 2009 12:33 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Will Clark
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Nov 12, 2009 12:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
hmm
if you consider hank greenburg, then albert pujols would have to be considered too (less than 100 games separate them)
so if they are considered it would be pujols 3 and greenberg 4.
if not then…
gehrig
foxx
johny mize?
dan brouthers
mccovey
bagwell
cap anson
roger connor
eddie murray
mark mcgwire
george sisler
norm cash
gil hodges?
but in a few years it’ll be pujols. maybe even pujols will be #2??
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
by gossamer on Nov 12, 2009 12:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Pujols may be on his way to becoming better than Gehrig
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
by Josey Wales on Nov 12, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fixed
Pujolsmay beis on his way to becoming better than Gehrig
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 12, 2009 12:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i will have none of that
growing up, he was an idol of mine. mainly because he was german american, but still…
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
by gossamer on Nov 12, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's true though
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 12, 2009 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
While it may be true, I think Gehrig will forever remain on a different pedestal
There will be “all time great first basemen” and then there will be “Gehrig.” He’s sort of in a class all his own because of the combination of his prodigious numbers, his consecutive games streak, the good guy that he was, and the unfortunate way his career came to an end.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 12, 2009 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
i think you can put him in a class of his own based on
the unfortunate way his career came to an end.
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 12, 2009 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course, then you have to wonder
how good would Gehrig have been without the disease named after him?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 12, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and if he faced black and Latin guys :)
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 12, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and if
he played in a league watered down by 30 teams instead of 16…and had 8 extra games a season to play.
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
by gossamer on Nov 12, 2009 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and if he faced black and Latin guys :)
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 12, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oops
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 12, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think there are a few guys
who would still have been just as awesome no matter who they played, but good point.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 12, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree on both counts
You wish that guys like Gehrig, Walter Johnson, etc., would have gotten to play against the Josh Gibsons, Satchel Paiges, and Cool Papa Bells of the world, but we’re really just parsing levels of greatness. It’s not like Gehrig slipped into the all-time greats list just because of his weak competition.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 12, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He didn't face blacks or latinos, but neither did anyone else in the league and he was still that much better than his peers, and that's what counts, imo.
Plus the talent pool may have been artificially limited by racist practices, but there were less teams to spread that talent around to, so perhaps that limits the effect somewhat.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"Especially stinkbeetles!!!" -God.
by thedirkatron on Nov 12, 2009 1:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
greenberg
missed (most of) ages 30-34 serving in a shooting war – a ‘great’ one. his first full season back he lead the league in home runs. he was thirty-five. i have no doubts that pujols is one of the greats, but remember that hank was a jackie robinson of sorts which is why i mention his greatness for many reasons. much like gehrig his legend extends far beyond the playing field.
by reagan on Nov 12, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bagwell
should be in the top half dozen or so, haven’t seen his name mentioned here.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 12, 2009 12:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
i had him at 6
when you don’t include greenburg and pujols
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
by gossamer on Nov 12, 2009 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow so no one here even brings up Palmeiro?
or McGwire if you’re entirely discounted the whole PED thing.
by MikeEl on Nov 12, 2009 12:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That is why I think Pujols is better than all these other names
You could have a legit discussion about where Bagwell, McGwire, Palmeiro, McCovey, Mize, etc all rank relative to one another. But the question “Is player X (from that list) better than Foxx?” is so obvious you wouldn’t even think to ask the question.
I think we’re talking Greenberg and Pujols, who are the only two guys who you could actually ask that question and not get laughed at. Obviously Greenberg’s career was too short, but if you give him the “if he hadn’t gone to war” treatment, like Ted Williams, maybe he would stack up similarly to Foxx. And Pujols is in the middle of his career, in four years he may well be easily #2. But he may still decline; Foxx’s numbers include his tail.
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 12, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Pujols is the only recent or active player who you could seriously start comparing to Foxx
Here’s a question: is Jimmie Foxx underrated? For some reason, he’s not a name that automatically registers with a lot of people as an all-time great on par with the titans of baseball like Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, Mays, etc., but he clearly belongs in that stratosphere.
I’ve always found it interesting how he quietly put together 500 homers and monstrous numbers.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 12, 2009 1:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think he's tremendously underrated.
He was the second best homerun hitter for a long time, until his career took a nose dive and ended up coaching in the women’s league.
by MikeEl on Nov 12, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's Tom Hanks.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 12, 2009 1:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
his character was based off Jimmy Foxx
by MikeEl on Nov 12, 2009 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, thanks.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 12, 2009 9:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
foxx
had a lot of HR taken away cuz of the tall net/wall in philly also IIRC
foxx is VERY underrated
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 12, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OT. Fuck Fuck fuck
JB ((Dallas))
I know it’s early to ask, but who has the highest upside of the college 2011 draftees? Cole? Armstrong? Other?
K-Law
Probably Armstrong. Cole has the biggest arm, but Armstrong looks more likely to have the total package. I haven’t seen Hultzen, though.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 12, 2009 12:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
We're glad to have you back
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 12, 2009 4:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Who's back?
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 12, 2009 7:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The great Finnerty himself
Hopefully he’ll start a fanpost dissing Robbie Ross for being short or explaining why Tanner Scheppers will never be a big leaguer because his hair is too shaggy.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 12, 2009 7:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Ha. I thought it was just HH or something. Thought I took Fin off my troll script after this long.
He must have an alternate account or a friend on LSB, to show up on cue after his name was mentioned a couple times in the last few days.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 12, 2009 7:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Scheppers
From what I’ve read, he seems to be the real deal. I’m not sold on Ross. He was very good in Spokane, but Spokane isn’t exactly the majors and Ross doesn’t exactly fit the mold of a top-of-the-rotation guy. As I’ve said, I will gladly support the kid if he continues to pitch well as he advances through the system. I’m not the type of fan that wants players to fail just because I suggested they would. I want the Rangers to have 100 top of the rotation pitchers. I want a world series in Arlington. I want lonestarjon to admit that he is a moron and that he is a big waste of time. I want a lot of things.
by Finnerty.Fan on Nov 13, 2009 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
...so where does josh gibson rank on the list of all time greatest catchers?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 12, 2009 1:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
somewhere
below bench, berra, pizza, fisk, berra, and pudge
above matt nokes, tettleton, veretek
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
by gossamer on Nov 12, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
really?
so you rank leonard and oscar charleston where?
satch page?
cool pappa bell?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 12, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
just saying
that i’m sure he would have been above average. an all star. probably a hall of famer. but i’m not gonna put him with elite players.
we don’t even have numbers to look at to compare him to anyone, just stories. can’t even adjust to era. it’s hard to tell. that’s all. we can guess.
here we go, my guess…josh gibson was better than gary carter, about the same as roy campanella, but not with bench, berra, fisk, pudge, piazza, or cochrane. so he’s 7th or 8th all time
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
by gossamer on Nov 12, 2009 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so you downgrade him for his non-MLB career
how much do you downgrade MLB players for not playing against latinos or blacks?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 12, 2009 1:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not really
we don’t know much about him except for stories. no stats were kept, and most of the numbers thrown around are garbage.
i was never an Olympian, but consider myself the 3rd best dead lifter of all time btw.
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
by gossamer on Nov 12, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
umm
a) he has stats (wiki link from 2 diff books))
so the fact that he never played in the MLB means that josh gibson:catcher, you:olympic deadlifter
logically, if your going to downgrade his career b/c of not playing in the MLB – yet rank him in the top 8 catchers of all time, why dont youd owngrade the MLB players for not playing top tier talent during their careers?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 12, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
top tier talent
may not be the term you are looking for. maybe you mean “all the best players” or something.
gibson also didn’t play against all the top players, it may not have been his choice, but it’s still a fact. mlb is the top league. always has been. it’s the gold standard. it also helps that mlb has kept good box scores and we have stats to compare people to thru different eras. i’m not knocking him by saying i wouldn’t (couldn’t, really) put him as a top catcher of all time. all the guys i listed above (except chochrane). why do you think i downgrade a guy because i list him in probably top 10, but can’t put a partially mythical figure in a top 3 spot. much of josh gibson is lore.
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
by gossamer on Nov 12, 2009 2:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oops
i meant " all the guys i listed above (except chochrane) played against people of color)
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
by gossamer on Nov 12, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right behind Gerald Laird
/AJM
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 12, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How bout you have an opinion of your own and tells us yours
by Mike E on Nov 12, 2009 1:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
He'll tell us all at the end...
McLaughlin Group style.
“You’re all WRONG! The correct answer is…”
by bhudson on Nov 12, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jayslick?
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 12, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no love for fred mcgriff at all?
…just throwing his name out there — hes a top 15 guy, right?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Nov 12, 2009 1:47 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
fun batting stance to mimic
how about that question. What are/were your favorite batting stances to mimic? Julio Franco had to be the easiest or most unique
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by NothinG on Nov 12, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just a quick thought on Gehrig
He’s my favorite Yankee of all-time. I think if he wouldn’t have fell ill and passed away, we’d be talking about him possibly being the greatest players of all time, not just the greatest first baseman.
"Blister please, with those wings in your spine.
Love to be with a brother of mine.
How he'd love to find your tongue in his teeth,
In a struggle to find secret songs that you keep,
Wrapped in boxes so tight, sounding only at night as you sleep." ~Jeff Mangum; Neutral Milk Hotel
by jdh90 on Nov 12, 2009 1:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I love Gehrig, and you might be right
Didn’t Ruth (as well as others) think Gehrig was the better hitter?
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 12, 2009 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You guys are clueless, it's clearly Ben Broussard followed by Brad Fullmer
I thought it be all warm and shitty, but it just tasted like normal beer. It was still cold.
by RA Dickey on Nov 12, 2009 2:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Nah man, you're cluesless
It’s obviously Hank F. He saved the Rangers from a huge slide when Jonny Donuts finally realized that Davis wasn’t cut out for The Show.
"Blister please, with those wings in your spine.
Love to be with a brother of mine.
How he'd love to find your tongue in his teeth,
In a struggle to find secret songs that you keep,
Wrapped in boxes so tight, sounding only at night as you sleep." ~Jeff Mangum; Neutral Milk Hotel
by jdh90 on Nov 12, 2009 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ben Broussard
Hands down best first baseman of all time.
by texrangers31 on Nov 12, 2009 2:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
didnt see RA’s comment. my apologies
by texrangers31 on Nov 12, 2009 2:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
When I was a kid growing up in the 60's
I loved me some Willie McCovey and Boog Powell. McCovey was just fearsome. Dont know why I liked Boog. Maybe the cool name.
by BEW on Nov 12, 2009 2:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
My favorite first baseman growing up was Kent Hrbek
by oc on Nov 12, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mine was Will "The Thrill"
"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris
by Chase Irwin on Nov 12, 2009 7:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
McCovey
When I first started getting into baseball my uncle and grandfather were watching a game. McCovey was coming up with the bases loaded and all these fans gathered in a lttle area past the right field fence waiting for a McCovey home run. . . . he hit it right in the middle of them.
At that point I thought McCovey was god and that he would hit a home run every time up.
by Evil Monkey on Nov 12, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
All Relative
There are dozens of first basemen today who if you dropped them in the middle of the Yankee linup 80 years ago would be better than Gehrig.
It’s all relative.
That said Gehrig was the best ever . . relative to the Class A ball players who dominated the Majors during his era.
by Evil Monkey on Nov 12, 2009 2:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hank Greenberg.
Ernie Banks did play first for the last decade or so of his illustrious career, so there’s that.
But I’d go Greenberg, with the caveat that Pujols will eventually be No. 1.
What do tigers dream of when they take a little tiger snooze? Do they dream of mauling zebras, or Halle Berry in her Catwoman suit?
by ghtd36 on Nov 12, 2009 2:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Greenberg
No doubt.
"you stupid motherfucker?!?!!?" - Josey Wales
by cmkelly29 on Nov 12, 2009 2:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
also, to be honest...
Teixeira is going to be in the mix when he’s done too. Between the bat and the glove, he has to be considered at some point.
"you stupid motherfucker?!?!!?" - Josey Wales
by cmkelly29 on Nov 12, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Um
No
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 12, 2009 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ok?
"you stupid motherfucker?!?!!?" - Josey Wales
by cmkelly29 on Nov 12, 2009 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt it also.
1. Carlos Delgado (932)
2. Kent Hrbek (919)
3. Jeff Bagwell (916)
4. Fred McGriff (908)
5. Jim Thome (906)
6. Derrek Lee (906)
7. Shawn Green (905)
8. Albert Belle (898)
9. Hal Trosky (897)
10. Will Clark (894)
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Nov 12, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hal Trosky
Headed for a HOF career until migraines sidelined him.
Bagwell will get in, probably Thome, too, unless PEDs blow up their chances.
Anyway…if I had to bet, I’d say Teixeira is not a HOFer, but really, it all depends on what he does the next 5-7 years. If he has a normal aging pattern, he doesn’t make it. If he can maintain his peak, turn it into a plateau, he will.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 12, 2009 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I think he will be
in the Hall of the very good, but not a HoFer.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Nov 12, 2009 3:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bagwell's best chance
will be the year Biggio gets inducted. The voters will make him wait at least 1 year before that.
by MikeEl on Nov 12, 2009 3:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if Teixeira ends up w/ Bagwell stats offensively
and maintains his defense, does he get in?
"you stupid motherfucker?!?!!?" - Josey Wales
by cmkelly29 on Nov 12, 2009 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He probably has to ramp it up a bit
to catch Bagwell offensively. Also, Bagwell did get a Gold Glove and until his shoulder turned to hamburger, was a very good defensive 1B.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Nov 12, 2009 3:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wondered what the story was with Trosky
For some reason, I never had known his story and started looking at some of these comps a while back and saw him listed among some pretty impressive names.
Sad that migraines were what derailed him.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 12, 2009 3:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ajm
Don’t you have to say Tex isn’t going to Cooperstown?
Otherwise that means JD traded a HOF player in his prime with 1.5 years left on his contract for Tiny E & Feliz.
Mark Teixeira is going to the HOF – book it.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
by Josey Wales on Nov 13, 2009 12:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
but since Tiny E and Feliz
are going to be HOFers, then he traded 1.5 years of a HOFer for 12 years of HOFers.
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 13, 2009 6:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As I said when Tex was a Ranger
Tex is good, but he’s arguably only barely in the top 5 firstbasemen in baseball; much less all time.
This is obviously a limited way of looking at it; but
http://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/onbase_plus_slugging_plus_active.shtml
Helton, Howard, Giambi, Berkman, and Pujols are all above Teixeira. Now, you say that Giambi and Helton are old and don’t count. Fine. But then you have to look at Youklis Gonzalez and Fielder who aren’t on that career list yet due to games played.
You bring up fielding, and yeah, Tex is good. So is Youklis. So is Pujols. So is/was Helton. And really, let’s be honest; first base is not a position where guys are acquired for defense.
Tex is probably the 4th or 5th best 1bman in the league now (obviously, 2009 he was probably 2nd; but that is one year). It is just a LOADED position right now. Which makes Pujols’ dominance of it all the more amazing.
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 12, 2009 2:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Pujols will finish as the greatest 1B of all-time...
I’m just saying I think by the time he’s done, Teixeira’s combo of bat and glove will have him in the Top 20 discussion, I would think.
"you stupid motherfucker?!?!!?" - Josey Wales
by cmkelly29 on Nov 12, 2009 3:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that and finishing his career as a yank
the new york thing alone moves him up ten slots in terms of “greatness”
by MikeEl on Nov 12, 2009 3:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
550 HR's, 1,500 RBI...
a slew of Gold Gloves, possibly a few MVP awards, already has a ring
"you stupid motherfucker?!?!!?" - Josey Wales
by cmkelly29 on Nov 12, 2009 3:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
550 home runs?
Seriously?
He’s at 242 now and he’ll be 30 next year. He’d have to average 30/year and play until 40 to get to that point; that sounds a lot more likely than it is. 1500 RBI is more foreseeable if he’s in NY (that is only 70/year for 10 years); but still… you’re assuming that he won’t decline at all when most players peak at 28 or so.
He’s never finished higher than 7th in MVP voting (he’ll do so this year, of course), and while NY will help with that; he’s not exactly even Justin Morneau when it comes to the MVP.
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 12, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah don't know why I came up with 550...
bad thought process on my part. He’ll probably end up around 500.
I do think he has two or three 40 HR seasons in him.
"you stupid motherfucker?!?!!?" - Josey Wales
by cmkelly29 on Nov 12, 2009 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are making the mistake
of basing a players future on his present.
More than likely, you are seeing Teixeira’s peak in a pretty easy ballpark to hit it out of. I doubt he is quite the same in five years.
Look at Bagwell’s stats at similar ages, and they are much more impressive in the Astrodome which was a graveyard for hitters. Look at Delgado’s stats and they are comparable. Teixeira is a very good player, but he hasn’t shown to be HoF great yet. I doubt he is even as good as Bagwell for his career.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Nov 12, 2009 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No no, it was honestly just me messing up the numbers in my head..
trying to project what he would do and why.
"you stupid motherfucker?!?!!?" - Josey Wales
by cmkelly29 on Nov 12, 2009 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Favorite Toy
It gives him a 19% chance of getting to 550.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 12, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's higher
than I would have thought, actually.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 12, 2009 9:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thought it's kinda funny...
Mark Teixeira’s most similar 23 year old season comp is Chris Davis.
"you stupid motherfucker?!?!!?" - Josey Wales
by cmkelly29 on Nov 13, 2009 8:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As long as we're doing bits...
Of former Ranger Great 1Bs… My choice is Dave Hostetler.
Butch Davis was the greatest Ranger EVER!
by matthewbschultz83 on Nov 12, 2009 3:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Bits are fun.
/Norm
What do tigers dream of when they take a little tiger snooze? Do they dream of mauling zebras, or Halle Berry in her Catwoman suit?
by ghtd36 on Nov 12, 2009 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My friends mother dated Hostettler iin college.
"you stupid motherfucker?!?!!?" - Josey Wales
by cmkelly29 on Nov 12, 2009 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My dad dated the future Mrs. Hargrove...
In highschool in Olten, Texas. Too bad my dad couldn’t play first base like Grover…or lose 2 World Series…
Butch Davis was the greatest Ranger EVER!
by matthewbschultz83 on Nov 12, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No Frank Thomas Love?
He’s probably not the 3rd best ever but he at least deserves a mention.
"You'll meet them again on their long journey to the middle." -Lester Bangs
by BAC on Nov 12, 2009 5:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
When Baseball Fever did an all-time first basemen project, Jeff Bagwell was almost universally #3 or 4.
Almost no one had him lower than 4, a few had him #2 (yes, ahead of Foxx). Anyway, with my own research bolstered by a lot of opinions I respect, he is my personal answer to your question, Adam.
I feel like he’s ridiculously underrated except by the kind of people who like doing statistical research.
by philkid3 on Nov 13, 2009 1:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm on board
with him being pretty high, but I think Pujols supplants him barring catastrophic injury in a year or two.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 13, 2009 2:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I automatically lump him in with the cheaters, fair or not
And, unlike, say, Barry Bonds, I don’t know if he would have been great anyway.
by tyd3311 on Nov 13, 2009 7:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
fair or not
bag’s ab/HR for first 7 seasons
1991 36.933
1992 39.1
1993 26.75
1994 10.3
1995 21.3
1996 18.3
1997 13.2
he did sort of steadily improve his first 3 seasons, but in 1994 he exploded and then settled to about the number for the rest of his career. that probably helps him a little along with the fact that he was never one to miss many games. of course, along with his home run increase, his walk rate when way up, maybe due to the increased respect due to increased power? who was his hitting coach? ken caminiti?
i don’t know how homer prone his minor league systems were, but in 1989 and 1990 in the minors his ab per hr:
1989 114.5
1990 120.25
ken caminiti ab/hr first several seasons in the majors
1989 64.6
1990 149
1991 48.6
1992 38.9
1993 41.7
1994 22.6
1995 20.2
1996 13.7
but unlike bags, ken hit homers in the minors at a decent clip
ab/hr
1986 42.75
1987 25.0
1988 83.2
also unlike bags, he didn’t have quite the plate discipline and did miss quite a few games.
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
by gossamer on Nov 13, 2009 9:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's funny, though, that 1994 was the turning point for both of them in the Majors
by tyd3311 on Nov 13, 2009 9:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
were teammates
and both made 1st all star team
raffy had already been a “slugger” by that year.
carlos delgado wasn’t a full time big leaguer yet
frank thomas ruled the world
greg jeffries was the NL starting firstbaseman
mcgriff was in the middle of his career
john olerud was still in toronto
cecil fielder was a few years past his mishmashing
andres galaragga hadn’t become a 40 home run guy yet
mark grace was on his way to getting most hits of the 90’s (i think i heard that somewhere)
will clark had dropped his “future hall of famer” label he got way to early
mark mcgwire had been injured, and injured and injured and hadn’t become the savior yet
lots of good first basemen in that era
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
by gossamer on Nov 13, 2009 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bagwell
I always liked him, and this made me go back and look at his stats. He was better than I ever realized. Consistently top 10 in OBP and SLG, high batter avg and solid hr numbers.
I still remember going to houston to see the series vs the giants in 1994 right before the strike ended the season, I thought for sure williams or him would have broken that HR record that season if it hadn’t ended so early.
The one thing I always remember about Bagwell is that whacky batting stance
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
by rentz on Nov 13, 2009 9:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Guy could do everything for a 1B
Took 140 or so walks in a season once, I think, scored 150 runs once, and went 30/30 twice.
Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.
by jonthefon on Nov 13, 2009 9:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What about 3rd base?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Nov 13, 2009 11:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Brooks Robinson deserves a look because of his defence
but yeah, Schmidt probably gets it, the dude still won, what, 10 GG’s?
Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.
by jonthefon on Nov 13, 2009 9:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

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