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Around SBN: The Amateur Mathematics Of Linsanity

Saturday a.m. Rangers things

Largely a quiet day out there today.

Evan Grant writes that the Rangers have probably their best chance in years to break their 35 year ROY drought, the longest in baseball, this coming week, with Elvis Andrus viewed as one of the prime contenders for the award.

Richard Durrett has a Q&A up with Rusty Greer.

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Elvis Andrus, Rangers.
You’re going to hear much from the White Sox’s Gordon Beckham, Detroit’s Rick Porcello and Oakland’s Andrew Bailey. And maybe in other years, each of them would handily win the Rookie award. But even without flashy numbers, I just do not see how people can overlook Andrus’ overall contributions in 2009: His play at shortstop was the most important facet of Texas’ important and mostly successful shift toward pitching and defense this summer. He committed 22 errors but mostly was dependable. He was solid enough that the Rangers moved their heart and soul, Michael Young, over to third base and left him there. And he handled himself well enough at the plate. If Andrus doesn’t win, something’s wrong.

http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/story/12513141/2009-al-rookie-of-the-year

by GregoryM on Nov 14, 2009 9:25 AM CST reply actions  

The fanshots and the comment boxes are silver this morning.

Schnazzy. I like.

"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS

"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire

by LSJ on Nov 14, 2009 9:48 AM CST reply actions  

Feliz will be eligible this coming yr, correct?

"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto

by Michael Cave on Nov 14, 2009 9:59 AM CST reply actions  

Because of service time?

"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto

by Michael Cave on Nov 14, 2009 10:06 AM CST up reply actions  

I think you are incorrect Adam

I don’t think his service time in September counts which leaves him under.

LoneStarBall....You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

by LSBUser on Nov 14, 2009 12:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Fuck it...

he’ll just have to win the Cy Young then.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 14, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't see that being a problem

He may decide to win both the Cy Young and MVP just to be safe.

"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217

Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales

by WestTxAg06 on Nov 14, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions  

ROY

not exactly a guarantee to success. Just ask Todd Hollandsworth and Bobby Crosby

by chrisR on Nov 14, 2009 10:28 AM CST up reply actions  

another former A -- Ben Grieve won ROY and what happened to him

 Sophomore slumps are common, but he just never seemed to be able to repeat any of that success. Hopefully, Davis can recover from his sophomore disaster, and rebound this year with a solid performance.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 14, 2009 11:00 AM CST up reply actions  

huh? ben grieve matched his rookie year the next two years

including a 27 hr/104 rbi season.

then he started losing it.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Nov 14, 2009 12:31 PM CST up reply actions  

Elvis

He contributes a lot of things that don’t show up in a box score so while it may be disappointing, I won’t find it surprising. I hope elvis wins, but the rangers just aren’t on the radar of the costal (or national) media.

by thedudeabides on Nov 14, 2009 10:22 AM CST reply actions  

and in the end

I’ll take the performance of the Rangers’ rookies over that of other teams.

by thedudeabides on Nov 14, 2009 10:24 AM CST up reply actions  

Media

I think the Rangers caught a lot of peoples’ attention this year. He has a fair shot of winning because so many of the voters actually watch a lot of baseball games. Never did the Rangers play more than a few games without Andrus doing something spectacular. He just has incredible instincts and reflexes. Hard not to notice that.

by Black Francis on Nov 14, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions  

I hope you are right and I am wrong, I don’t doubt voters like Law etc., I just doubt beat writers in the secondary markets

by thedudeabides on Nov 14, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions  

KLaw

didn’t even have elvis on his (not real) ballot

Go Rice Owls!

by JBImaknee on Nov 14, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Right, I didn’t mean to suggest that Law would vote for Elvis; I meant from a knowledge standpoint the local beat writers are more provincial, which I think (e.g.) the Heisman balloting demonstrates. Reasonable minds can differ but while I may disagree with Law, I respect his opinion.

by thedudeabides on Nov 14, 2009 1:14 PM CST up reply actions  

See, I almost think the opposite

Yeah, local writers are more provincial, as you put it. But they’re also scattered uniformly around the league. Writers in Seattle see Texas a lot more than they see Tampa; whereas Boston writers see Tampa more. It balances out. Yeah, they have biases in both opinion and perspective, but so do national writers. To pretend that a Keith Law or a Rob Neyer or whoever doesn’t have a bias in perspective is problematic. If you try to equally scan boxscores, weighting numbers based on your confidence in them, you may dismiss fielding altogether, because you just can’t quantify it as well as other facets of the game. Whereas if you are sitting in press boxes watching Elvis play, you can’t as easily say “well, we can’t quantify that range perfectly, so we’ll go with Gordan Beckham”

Elvis is an extraordinary player when it comes to quantifying his value; much like Pudge was early in his career. Sometimes you have to rely on intuition above numbers in those cases.

Go Rice Owls!

by JBImaknee on Nov 14, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions  

fair point

but if Elvis doesn’t win I reserve the right to scream “provincial beat motherfu*kers”

by thedudeabides on Nov 14, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah, if its a writers vote

The fact that he was 2nd in the AL in errors may lose him some writers votes.

As we have seen with Evan Grant and his propping up of MY’s GG last year, sometime Errors trump all with writers.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Nov 14, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Gordon Beckham should be the only other rookie

position player to be any where close to get votes compared to Andrus. Perhaps he gets more votes because he plays in Chicago. All I know is, Andrus played most every day at a premiere position with the pressure of supplanting last year’s gold glove winner and never looked overmatched in an AB. He had a great approach and had great results with 30+ steals etc.

I think Andrus should win. No pitcher was better than Andrus. The only one comparable is Brett Anderson, but he’ll most definitely get snubbed.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 14, 2009 11:05 AM CST up reply actions  

Voters

From what i’ve noticed they tend to look at the tried and true face value numbers.
Errors, BA, Era , wins and losses.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Nov 14, 2009 11:13 AM CST up reply actions  

yep

I think people tend to look at it how Klaw did. They won’t take his defense into account

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 14, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions  

I think defense is going to play a big part in the Elvis support

We’re not talking about some solid defensive 1B here. A lot of Elvis’ popularity is from what he does with the glove. Just about everyone has taken notice of the spectacular plays Elvis has made and that’s going to help Elvis in the voting. I don’t think the voters are going to look at it like KLaw did where he didn’t want to give Elvis much credit defensively because he doesn’t like defensive statistics that much.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Nov 14, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions  

i hope you're right

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 14, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions  

heh,

I may be right, but Elvis still won’t win the ROY. I just don’t think that people will disregard Elvis’ defense as like with other players.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Nov 14, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

The one thing Elvis has going for him is the flashy Sportscenter-quality plays he made

If he played just all-around great defense but did it without any flash, there’s no way the voters would consider it. But he was a human highlight reel this season, so the odds are at least a little higher that the voters will remember the flashy highlights they saw, if not the all-around consistent defensive prowess.

"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217

Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales

by WestTxAg06 on Nov 14, 2009 12:27 PM CST up reply actions  

heh

I just did an LSB search and found near-year old quotes by both me and you claiming Elvis’ error-rate is an indicator that he will not be a defensive upgrade during 2009.

by shroomer on Nov 14, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions  

the LSB search engine is quite good

I can usually find what I’m looking for in a search unlike when I search on many other larger sites

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 14, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions  

IIRC

My thinking was that he’d make 40+ errors as a big leaguer. I think I woulda called him a defensive upgrade if I’d a know he was only gonna boot 22. It’s amazing how well he subtracted the routine-ball error from his game.

by shroomer on Nov 14, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

I remember an interview Andrus gave

where he had mentioned that he had injured a couple of his fingers, and it bothered him for a couple of weeks while causing an inordinate amount of throwing errors.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 14, 2009 2:04 PM CST up reply actions  

Did you find me talking about how many balls he got to

and tried to force awesome plays when he probably shouldnt have? thats what caused a lot of those errors at frisco.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Nov 14, 2009 1:54 PM CST up reply actions  

I was as much worried about his high error rate

and what it would do to his perception.

Unfortunately, the defensive stats you get from the minors may not count for much, but as we have seen with Borbon, eyewitness accounts are not necessarily better.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Nov 14, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions  

The sad thing is, if Elvis loses he probably won't even be losing to the guy he should be losing to

Which is Brett Anderson. I’d actually rather Anderson win than Elvis, just from the standpoint of solidarity – and because the fact that this year’s top performing AL rookie is getting virtually overlooked by everyone is freaking tragic.

But since Anderson probably has no chance, it’s gonna be really tough to watch Elvis lose to someone like Porcello or Bailey, one of whom is probably gonna get it. Bailey has a case I guess, but Porcello flat doesn’t deserve it.

"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS

"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire

by LSJ on Nov 14, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions  

Why?

Anderson freaking crushes Porcello, and most of the rest of the ROY field in performance. Heck, most of the rest of the ROY frontrunners crush Porcello in performance too.

Porcello’s only a frontrunner because of his prospect status in the minors, and that’s freaking poor way to choose a ROY, IMO.

"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS

"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire

by LSJ on Nov 14, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions  

Porcello v. Anderson

Porcello had a better ERA and ERA+.

Anderson had better peripherals, yes. But part of his problem was poor performance with RISP. Now, that’s variable, but still, I think it isn’t unrealistic to take into account.

And Porcello pitched well down the stretch for a playoff team. Anderson got off to a poor start — he had a 5.45 ERA at the end of June — and by the time he really got it going, Oakland was long gone from the race.

I had Anderson ahead of Porcello on my ballot, but I understand the rationale behind picking Porcello. I don’t think it is unreasonable to say, yes, Anderson’s peripherals are better and that suggests he’ll be better than Porcello going forward, but Porcello got better results, in terms of runs allowed (whether raw or park-adjusted) and he did it while pitching in a pennant race, and thus he’s more deserving of the ROY.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 10:47 AM CST up reply actions  

The problem with peripherals

and advanced stats like FIP is that they are predictive stats; they intentionally eliminate hard to interpret features so that predictions can be made based on what we understand. A guy with a great k/9, low HR/9 and BB/9 is very likely to be a good pitcher next year, even if choppy defense and bad luck gave him a bad ERA this year.

However, ultimately awards such as ROY and Cy Young reward past performance. Which, hate it as people may, is affected by defense and luck and all sorts of factors we can’t quantify or understand. I have no problem whatsoever awarding Cy Young or ROY based on ERA, which shockingly enough does a good job of telling you how many runs pitcher Y allowed in a given start in Year X. Maybe it isn’t predictive, but it is very descriptive.

Go Rice Owls!

by JBImaknee on Nov 14, 2009 11:44 AM CST up reply actions   2 recs

Two identical starters

one pitches for a team with a 3.14 bullpen ERA and the other pitches for a team with a 5.09 bullpen ERA. Which starter likely ends up with the best ERA?

by swampdonkey on Nov 14, 2009 7:44 PM CST up reply actions  

although

the only thing I’d say is that I would try to correct for defensive inefficiencies. Peripherals obviously do that but they do it too much – not taking into account BA w/RISP.

I think this is similar to an RBI discussion. You should reward someone for having a high BA w/ RISP but not award someone for having more runners getting on base in front of him than the next guy.

The tigers were a much better fielding team than the Athletics according to UZR so maybe porcello’s numbers should be docked a bit for that.

by ab03 on Nov 14, 2009 12:51 PM CST up reply actions  

OT

This is awesome.

The guy is a genius. Try the Joker vs Batman game.

by chrisR on Nov 14, 2009 10:29 AM CST reply actions  

those were all really good answers from Greer
They are professional athletes and they can make adjustments. They are capable of doing it.

just before that he mentions they have to be willing to make those adjustments. That is key. In order to be willing to make adjustments, they have to recognize there was a problem in the first place.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 14, 2009 11:13 AM CST reply actions  

MLBTR has a note up from Olney
Tom Hicks is still trying to find a way to hold onto the Rangers, but bids from prospective buyers are due next week.

um, screw him. we need to have an owner with the flexibility to add to payroll and to at least have a league avg or above payroll.

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 14, 2009 1:00 PM CST reply actions  

Lewin negotiations
If Josh Lewin, whose contract expires at year’s end, wants to return for a ninth season and beyond in the Rangers television booth, it looks like he will have to walk away from his NFL gig as the radio voice of the San Diego Chargers.

The Rangers apparently are no longer willing to have Lewin miss weekend games in September to call football. Lewin’s contract with the Chargers expires at the end of the NFL season.

In an e-mail to SportsDay’s Evan Grant this week, Lewin wrote: “We have had a friendly discussion about going forward, and my guess is sometime soon after Thanksgiving there will be some news to report. I’m knee-deep in football and some family things right now, but I’m sure we’ll all be talking again fairly soon.”

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/spt/columnists/bhorn/stories/111409dnspohotair.3c97027.html

by robert_d_wilfong on Nov 14, 2009 1:23 PM CST reply actions  

Ironically

the Chargers typically lose most of their games in September and play best at the end of the year. Shouldn’t this be easy to find some compromise?

Go Rice Owls!

by JBImaknee on Nov 14, 2009 1:34 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't understand why the Rangers are trying to strong arm Josh

on this one. He’s not Vin Scully but he’s not terrible and a much bigger upgrade over Dave Barnett.

It’s really no big deal if he’s gone to Fox on Saturdays or to do Charger games, 10-20 times a year when there are 162 games plus spring training.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"

by Josey Wales on Nov 14, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions  

We are really only talking about a ten games max

But when those games are in August and September and you plan on being in the hunt for a playoff race you don’t want to be running out the B team on your broadcast.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 14, 2009 1:48 PM CST up reply actions  

I just think a baseball team would rather have their normal play by play guy in the booth down the stretch

when you are fighting for a playoff spot in case some casual fans jump on the bandwagon and haven’t watched any games all season.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 14, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions  

x

It’s just such an insignificant amount of games, that I can’t imagine it would make any difference.

by brettgardner on Nov 14, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

cause they would suck

I was worried the past two seasons that if we got to the playoffs it would land on a day Rojas or Barnett was in the TV booth and I wouldn’t get to hear Lewin’s excitement during the clinching moment.

by Mike E on Nov 14, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

It's better to have a B-team 10 or so games

…then have a B-team for 162 games which is what will happen if Lewin goes.

by TRanger on Nov 14, 2009 5:26 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

it's a much bigger deal if an NFL broadcaster isn't there since there are only 16 games

so the Rangers are essentially saying they would want Lewin to give up broadcasting football. Lewin should just say give me a nice raise with what I made last year plus pay me what I would make doing football. Then we’re cool

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 14, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Which won't happen

Which is why it feels like the Rangers are forcing Lewin to leave.

Goddamnit.

by LiamP on Nov 14, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions  

the broadcast really does hurt when Lewin isn't there

but forcing him out of 152 games because of 10 possible missed games is just plain stupid and frustrating

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 14, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions  

It hurts if his replacement is Dave Barnett

and it makes me wonder if this was the plan all along.

Let Barnett cut his teeth on radio, get familiar with the team (and how to call baseball games) and be ready to step in when Lewin’s contract was up after 2009.

The problem with that little plan is that Dave Barnett spectacularly sucks at calling a baseball game.

I remember early this season when Barnett was calling a game and I was in the car listening.. I think it was the second game or so because Padilla was pitching. Padilla was scuffling and when that happens he takes the air out of the ball and takes forever.

The combo platter of Barnett announcing / Padilla scuffling almost made me switch radio stations.

Dave Barnett is the worst baseball announcer I’ve ever heard, even worse than when Tom Vandegriff used to get in the tv booth with Risenhoover (’74-76 or so?).

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"

by Josey Wales on Nov 14, 2009 2:35 PM CST up reply actions  

Tough tits man

He’s seen this rebuilding effort happen from Day 1 and is pretty much a fixture in Joe Rangers’s consciousness

If he wants to walk away from that to live in sunny California and call games for a team that can suck balls one year, draft a guy and then be in ship-shape the next, that’s fine

We’re trying to build something here, and he’s played an important part. He’s either in or out as far as I’m concerned

by oc on Nov 14, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions  

Right

Make him forfeit his other full salary, or tell him to get out. Perfectly reasonable

I hope they don’t let him go because I really can’t imagine 162 games of Barnett.

by Josh Lile on Nov 14, 2009 7:38 PM CST up reply actions  

Gotta figure a TV deal is worth more than a radio gig

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Nov 14, 2009 4:01 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah I would think so

At the same time I really don’t think the Rangers should be doing this — it’s only a few games. Why risk having a crappy, but at least consistent broadcast instead of having a good one for 85-90% of your games?

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Nov 14, 2009 5:11 PM CST up reply actions  

so the DMN said Matt Harrison is throwing 97 mph heat now

anybody already mention that?

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Nov 14, 2009 4:50 PM CST reply actions  

He was throwing about that before the TOS

He was hitting 95/96 then though not too regularly. I was worried that Harrison might need some time into the season to get back to where he was in early 09, but if he keeps this up then he could challenge for a rotation spot out of ST.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Nov 14, 2009 5:01 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope you are right

Speaking of semi-forgotten arms, any reports on Hurley?

"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto

by Michael Cave on Nov 14, 2009 5:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Do we still have interest in Willingham?
The Nationals again are drawing strong trade interest in left fielder Josh Willingham. Whether they are willing to move him is another question.(Rosenthal)

What is he worth in prospects?

by octoberty on Nov 14, 2009 5:14 PM CST reply actions  

Probably a pretty nice package

Under team control through 2011 and has put up OPS of at least 825 each of the last 4 seasons. Primarily a LF but can play RF and 1B if needed.

I don’t know the Washington system that great so I don’t know where they are really weak in prospects. I don’t know if Cruz as the centerpiece along with a pitching prospect would be enough. Maybe add in a lower level prospect also.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 14, 2009 6:09 PM CST up reply actions  

because everybody seems to undervalue Cruz

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 14, 2009 6:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Because it costs a little more to get consistency

Personally I think Cruz for Willingham straight up would be a great deal for us but I think it would take a pitching prospect to get the deal done

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 14, 2009 6:31 PM CST up reply actions  

You've got to be kidding me

Cruz is a guy who will make the league minimum, hit about as well as Willingham, and give you quality defense in RF.

Willingham is a DH who will cost $5 million and has never been a full time player.

That would be an awful deal for Texas.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 7:40 PM CST up reply actions  

If the Rangers aren't gonna play either Cruz or Hamilton in LF

Then Cruz’s defensive value goes out the window because he will be relegated to DH duty

Getting Willingham upgrades LF and fills the DH role for the most part. Then you could go out and sign a guy like Glaus and overall the team is better.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 15, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions  

Why won't they play Cruz in LF?

2 games last year is all he played out there.

I just don’t believe the Rangers view Cruz as an everyday LFer. I think if both he and Hamilton are on the roster next year Hamilton will be the everyday RFer and Cruz the everyday DH.

They have made it a point to come out and say Hamilton is moving to RF why won’t they make it known what they plan to do with Cruz?

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 15, 2009 11:29 AM CST up reply actions  

With Hamilton hurt,

who would you rather have them play in RF though? We have no idea if they are refusing to play him in LF or not. Now that both are healthy (hopefully) and their preference to not play Hamilton in CF, it’s a different situation

by CS3 on Nov 15, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions  

Last year after Hamilton came back from his injury

When he would play RF Cruz would DH.

Basically I think if we have both Cruz and Hamilton we don’t need a DH because Cruz will be the DH. It might not be whats best or what most want but thats what I see happening unless they come out and say Cruz is moving to LF now that Hamilton is moving to RF.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 15, 2009 1:12 PM CST up reply actions  

Against LHP: Willingham in LF

And possibly Glaus at DH (veterans minimum signing)

Against RHP: Murphy in LF and Willingham at DH

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 15, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions  

So

If Cruz and Willingham are both here, you just see Cruz not playing at all?

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 15, 2009 1:53 PM CST up reply actions  

Sorry I read your question wrong

I don’t see Cruz and Willingham being on the roster together. However…..

If it did happen what I would want is Cruz in LF and Willingham DHing

What I think would happen is Willingham in LF and Cruz DHing

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 15, 2009 1:56 PM CST up reply actions  

Why?

Willingham is a terrible defender. He’s a DH who has to play the field because he’s in the N.L.

Assuming that Willingham would be in LF and Cruz would DH assumes that the organization as a whole views Cruz’s outfield defense as being significantly below average, and even well below Willingham’s poor level of defense.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 15, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions  

OK

And based on what we have heard from Ron Washington thats not a big stretch. I agree it wouldn’t be the right choice but thats just what I think would happen

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 15, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions  

I suspect that decision...

…would be above Washington’s pay level.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 15, 2009 2:15 PM CST up reply actions  

Wash DHed Cruz instead of playing him in LF

He played Murphy or Borbon instead out there late in the season. I think Willingham would start out in LF and only if he was butt ass horrible out there would the FO step in and force change

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 15, 2009 2:18 PM CST up reply actions  

Murphy and Borbon

Both are considered to be pretty good defensive COFs.

And Cruz, for that matter, only DH’d 4 times this past season. Murphy DH’d 11 times, Borbon 21 times.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 15, 2009 2:21 PM CST up reply actions  

Wow that's like the reverse Josey comment right there

You should also be ridiculed nationally for that…

by MikeEl on Nov 14, 2009 7:44 PM CST up reply actions  

bigsteve's high as a fucking kite

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Nov 14, 2009 8:23 PM CST up reply actions  

You don't give up Nelson Cruz...

for Josh Willingham.

You know this team has other players too, right?!

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 14, 2009 6:37 PM CST up reply actions  

sure do

who do you propose we give up?

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 14, 2009 6:38 PM CST up reply actions  

giving up cruz for willingham seems counter productive

cruz is cheaper, a better fielder and under team control longer.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Nov 14, 2009 6:41 PM CST up reply actions  

Exactly

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 14, 2009 6:41 PM CST up reply actions  

ok

Until the Rangers come out and say they plan on using either Hamilton or Cruz full time in LF next year then I think getting rid of the logjam of RFs is a priority. They have said they plan on moving Hamilton to RF full time so Cruz’s defensive value means little to me if hes the DH here. And if they move Hamilton to RF permanently that means LF is the position we can upgrade this winter. Thats why I would look into trading Cruz for either Crawford or Willingham. Willingham is under team control for 2 more years and has been a very consistent producer.

Getting Willingham would be like making two moves with one. Because he has pretty even splits against both RHP and LHP you could use him as DH against LHP (which is what we are looking for) and play him in LF against RHP sitting Murphy.

Im not advocating getting rid of Cruz just for the sake of doing so but he is probably our best non pitching logical trade chip at the ML level.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 14, 2009 6:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Just to clarify

I’d give up Josh Hamilton AND David Murphy before giving up Nelson Cruz. And I don’t care to give up Hamilton, at least not yet.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -

"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce

by Ed Coffin on Nov 14, 2009 7:34 PM CST up reply actions  

yet it doesn't right now

he’ll prove it again…hopefully they BOTH do. in a Rangers uniform.

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Nov 14, 2009 8:48 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm sorry...

did you say “getting rid of the logjam of RFs is a priority?”

I don’t think so. That’s absurd.

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Nov 14, 2009 8:50 PM CST up reply actions  

I believe my full comment was

Until the Rangers come out and say they plan on using either Hamilton or Cruz full time in LF next year then I think getting rid of the logjam of RFs is a priority

Its easy for us to sit here and say sure just put one in LF and the other in RF. But if it was that easy you would think we would have done that more than twice last year don’t you? The manager has said he doesn’t believe Cruz is the defender the stats say he is so im sorry if I am not gonna go ahead and pencil in Hamilton and Cruz in the corners next year.

So if one of them isn’t going to play LF and Hamilton is not going to play CF then that leaves two starting RFs for one spot. Hamilton will be the RF if it comes down to the two of them. Which eliminates Cruz’s defensive value because he will be relegated to the DH role. And if thats the case then why are we here speculating and hoping to get Bradley or Johnson or Glaus or whoever? There isn’t a spot for them.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 15, 2009 10:31 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't know...

I just don’t understand why every trade proposal you make has to involve Cruz. I get that you aren’t sold on him, but enough already. You want to improve this teams offense not hurt it right?

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 14, 2009 6:47 PM CST up reply actions  

Because Cruz is the guy most likely to bring back something decent without giving away a ton

And until the Rangers come out and say they plan on playing either Cruz or Hamilton in LF full time in 2010 then I am going on the premise that we have two starting RFs right now. Only one of them can play there which most likely is Hamilton so all the talk of Cruz’s defense really means nothing to me. The same reasons you don’t want to trade him are the same reasons I think he would bring back a nice player.

Im not saying trade him for prospects but if we are getting back a Carl Crawford or Josh Willingham I think you have to consider it very strongly.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 14, 2009 6:54 PM CST up reply actions  

"Getting back a Carl Crawford or Josh Willingham"

Crawford and Willingham should never be in the same sentence again.

I think Luke French has a lot of potential. TORP potential.-Dstar

by sprite on Nov 14, 2009 6:58 PM CST up reply actions  

OK let me rephrase

getting back a LF upgrade

Oh and you might want to look at their stats a little before dismissing Willingham

Crawford has averaged a 796 OPS over the last 4 seasons and a 108 OPS+
Willingham has averaged a 844 OPS and a 120 OPS+

They are completely different types of players but Willingham is pretty nice in his own right

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 14, 2009 7:05 PM CST up reply actions  

Good player, not in the same league as Crawford.

I think Luke French has a lot of potential. TORP potential.-Dstar

by sprite on Nov 14, 2009 7:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Is say same league

Maybe not same ballpark but same league for sure

Crawfords age and speed make him the better player IMO but I think the fact Willingham has played in Florida and Washington have made him really undervalued

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 14, 2009 7:23 PM CST up reply actions  

If you're looking for a LF upgrade

and you’re convinced that Hamilton is going to be the RF’er (despite the team not currently having a CF’er), why wouldn’t you just move Cruz to LF and save $4.5 million and a couple of years of team control instead of dealing for Willingham? Trading Cruz for Willingham would seem to serve no purpose from a Rangers perspective.

by swampdonkey on Nov 14, 2009 7:57 PM CST up reply actions  

Im on board with playing Cruz or Hamilton in LF

I wasn’t this time last year but ive come around on the idea. However if the Rangers felt it was something they wanted to do I would think they would have played either of them in LF a little more than 2 games this past season. Ron Washington obviously doesn’t believe all the defensive stats that say Cruz is a good defender. I have a feeling that if both Hamilton and Cruz are on this team next season Hamilton is going to be the everyday RFer and Cruz the DH. If thats the case Cruz’s defensive value goes out the window.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 15, 2009 10:34 AM CST up reply actions  

Okay...

but when I told you that this team could sign Glaus for the veteran minimum and he has had an OPS over .850 in 3 of the last 4 years before being hurt this year you poo-pooed the idea.

But now you’re telling me that you would be okay with giving up one of this teams best offensive players for a guy who has put up an OPS > .825 for 4 years and you want to pay him the 5 mil or so he’s going to get.

It makes no sense.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 14, 2009 6:59 PM CST up reply actions  

I didn't poo poo it

I just think Vlad would be a better signing than Glaus.

And until the Rangers come out and say they plan on playing either Cruz or Hamilton in LF then signing a DH makes no sense no matter who it is.

You do this trade and you could still go out and sign Glaus for the veterans minimum if you want

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 14, 2009 7:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Why does the team...

have to come out and say anything to us? So what if they don’t. Maybe that’s already in their plans. Maybe not. You don’t just deal Cruz away because he plays RF and Willingham plays LF. Cruz is a better hitter, defender, is cheaper, and under team control longer. You put Hamilton or Cruz in LF. This argument that they can play RF but not LF is garbage.

You don’t do that trade.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Nov 14, 2009 7:13 PM CST up reply actions  

I hope it is in their plans

Ive come around on the idea of playing both in the corners. But unless it starts happening (only 2 games last year did Cruz or Hamilton play LF) then we have a problem.

Because if neither are gonna play LF then we have no need for a DH in the first place. So should we just stop talking about acquiring Milton Bradley or Nick Johnson or Troy Glaus?

And if Cruz is your DH then all those defensive stats mean nothing.

Also if people are gonna continue to use the “hes cheaper” argument then could we please stop bitching about the payroll? We have alot of pre-arb guys and early arb guys who are cheap. Our payroll is gonna be low. If you aren’t gonna trade someone because they are cheaper then don’t complain about having a low payroll.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 14, 2009 7:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Bring back something decent

sure, like Josh Willingham, who is more expensive and isn’t as good.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 7:40 PM CST up reply actions  

1 year deal at $8-10 million

And that’s better than giving up anything of value to pay Willingham $5 million.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 7:43 PM CST up reply actions  

Yeah

And when I wanted Bobby Abreu here about three years ago?

That sure was dumb…

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 8:18 PM CST up reply actions  

That surprises me

I had him pegged as a non-tender candidate.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 6:13 PM CST up reply actions  

He's a decent player

did you think he was a non-tender just b/c of his likely salary — or because he’s just not that good?

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Nov 14, 2009 6:17 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd love to pick him up if he was non-tendered

What kind of package do you think they are looking to get for him?

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Nov 14, 2009 6:17 PM CST up reply actions  

Really?

Seems like he’d be great to have for 1) Chris Davis fails and Smoak isn’t quite ready, 2) Borbon fails and you have to slide Hammy back to CF

by octoberty on Nov 14, 2009 6:22 PM CST up reply actions  

He's going to make around $5 million via arbitration

Do you really want to spend $5 million on an insurance policy?

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 6:27 PM CST up reply actions  

I hate that we don't have any money.

It’s stupid.

"Sometimes you just want to sit back and watch somebody throw 100." - Jeff Passan on Neftali Feliz

by Cecilio's Guante on Nov 14, 2009 6:28 PM CST up reply actions  

Not right now, but depending on what we do, if we do nothing else

Then yes, because he is probably your starting DH or LF vs lefties

by octoberty on Nov 14, 2009 6:31 PM CST up reply actions  

I'd spend 5M easily if we had it

A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.

by NothinG on Nov 14, 2009 6:35 PM CST up reply actions  

I think hed be a nice starter

the insurance part would be a bonus. He could be the starter in LF against LHP and go to DH against RHP allowing Murphy to start in LF. Hamilton slides to RF.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 14, 2009 6:34 PM CST up reply actions  

Or

You could put Hamilton in LF, put Cruz in RF, let Murphy be the 4th outfielder, and get a DH.

There’s no realistic way that replacing Cruz with Willingham makes the team better, particularly given that you then have $5 million less to spend.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 7:44 PM CST up reply actions  

I wouldn't mind picking up Willingham

for 1B/DH, but not at the expense of Cruz. And only after exhausting options like Bradley and Vladdy.

by MikeEl on Nov 14, 2009 7:48 PM CST up reply actions  

Yes you could

But the Rangers have shown little to no interest in playing either of them in LF. Cruz played out there twice all of last season.

Thats why this is even a thought in my mind. If you play Cruz and Hamilton in the corners and go out and sign a guy like Vlad or trade for Bradley you are spending that 5 million anyway right?

If you trade Cruz for Willingham then you go out and sign Glaus for the veterans minimum and you have spent about the same money. Willingham plays LF against LHP with Glaus DHing. Willingham DHs against RHP with Murphy in RF.

Overall both scenarios are probably about the same team performance wise and you are spending the same money. Willingham also gives you that insurance in case Davis struggles again and Smoak isn’t ready.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 15, 2009 10:38 AM CST up reply actions  

Yes.

"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS

"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire

by LSJ on Nov 14, 2009 11:27 PM CST up reply actions  

Rosenthal
Upton, one source says, is “not a high priority right now” for the Rangers.

8.20p

by oc on Nov 14, 2009 8:36 PM CST reply actions  

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