Offseason FanPost - greatest at each position?
by WestTxAg06 on Nov 14, 2009 12:17 PM CST
47 comments
Adam's "thinking about first basemen in history" post and the ensuing discussion caused me to ponder this idea. To entertain ourselves during the dark winter days of the off-season, would anyone else be interested in a fanpost series on the greatest players of all time at each position? I know I could compare and discuss Williams, Dimaggio, Hornsby, Foxx, Bench, etc. forever, so if it's something that others would participate in, I would happily be the one to start each post and provide some analysis to kick things off. I thought maybe leaving each up for a five or so days, depending on the amount of discussion, then moving on to the next position.
Is that something worth my undertaking for the offseason?
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Sure, why not?
Since we have already discussed 1B we can move onto 2B.
Rogers Hornsby. Period. End of Discussion.
Scary little tidbit about Hornsby. At one time he was a member of the KKK?!
Okay, now onto SS.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I think a legit argument can be made...
…for Joe Morgan or Eddie Collins, rather than Hornsby.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, I think there's an interesting debate to be had there
Plus some other names like Lajoie, Robinson, Gehringer, and Frisch.
I’ll start with 2nd base and present who I think are the top five and why. That should make for a good discussion.
"Dying ain't hard. It’s living in the wake of a thorough public humiliation that’s hard.--JDT217
Internet greatness http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/11/10/1125340/will-carroll-calls-out-josey-wales
Morgan I can see
since comparing their eras and styles have challenges, but I’d be interested in why you think Collins > Hornsby. They were contemporaries, and at least Hornsby’s numbers were just ridiculous, even compared to Collins’ good numbers at the same time.
Go Rice Owls!
Collins had a pretty significant defensive advantage
Hornsby was considered to be, generally speaking, a not good defender. Collins was considered an excellent defender.
Jaffe’s JAWS formula has Collins ahead of Hornsby, and Collins has a higher career WARP2 (albeit in about 550 more games). The difference between the two is primary defense.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 1:42 PM CST up reply actions
Fair enough
but it is hard enough to quantify defense when every play is recorded with uber-precision. I can’t image how anyone can make very strong conclusions about defense from 80 years ago. Heck, the difference may have been in quality of their respective fields for all we know.
But if the difference between Collins and Hornsby was comparable to Pudge vs Piazza; I can see how the arguments could be made. In fact, if Collins’s D was better by that extent (the difference between Pudge and Piazza), then I’d be more receptive of that argument, as that is why I have Pudge above MP as far as catchers go.
Go Rice Owls!
Joe Morgan, from '72-76 was just about the best all-around baseball
player I’ve ever seen.
I consider him to be the best combination of physical ability & intelligence as a player that I’ve seen.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
Too bad it doesn't transfer to the booth
Look at the comments under Jeff Wilson's blog post on dallasnews.com. What a bunch of rocket scientists.- Keith Law
You can argue it...
but there’s now way I put either of them ahead of Hornsby. If you look at the offensive #‘s he put up in the period he played you could argue that he’s one of the best 2 or 3 RH hitters to ever play the game.
I know he doesn’t have much of a rep as a defensive 2B, but the offense more than makes up for it. Morgan was a hell of a player, but he has to settle for 2nd best 2nd baseman ever.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Okay
Just running through a comparison…
Over the course of his career, Eddie Collins had a RAP (Runs Above Average for his Position) of 757.
Hornsby was at 933. Pretty big edge to Hornsby.
However…if Collins was, on average, 10 runs better than Hornsby per year defensively, Collins’ defensive advantage ends up making the difference.
The other thing that is important to keep in mind is that Hornsby was pretty much done after his age 33 season. He had 120 PAs at age 34, 418 PAs at age 35, and then only about 300 the rest of his career.
Collins didn’t drop below 300 PAs until he turned 40. His having a much longer career helped his counting stats but hurt his rate stats, but I think you have to take into account career length and how long a player continued to play at a high level when evaluating who the better player is.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 10:49 PM CST up reply actions
Look...
I’m not saying that Morgan, Collins, Lajoie, Gehringer, et al. aren’t great 2nd basemen. I’m just saying that I don’t think their defense makes up enough of the gap to argue for them being better than Hornsby.
Offensively the guy was just unreal. Hornsby had a career OPS or 1.01 and OPS + of 175. Morgan had a career OPS of .819 and an OPS + of 132. Collins was at an OPS of .853 and an OPS + of 142. And look at the time period Hornsby and Collins played in. I didn’t realize the RAP was that drastic between the two either.
I still have a hard time fully trusting defensive stats today. Much less for players that played 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, or 90 years ago. I can’t say those make up the difference for Collins. Sorry.
My list would be :
1) Hornsby
2) Collins
3) Morgan
4) Lajoie
5) Gehringer
How would you rank them?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I know I said...
Morgan would have to settle for 2nd best above, and I put Collins second here. I don’t like ties, but the difference between the two is very little imo. After thinking about it some more I gave the slight edge to Collins, but really i think those two are pretty interchangeable.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
This is all good stuff
Save it for the discussion of best 2B ever.
"What ... 92 miles per hour?" Feldman scoffed. "That's not gas. Feliz throws gas."
by NorCalRangersFan on Nov 14, 2009 11:24 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry...
about that.
Of course WesTxAg could always do a little editing to this thread and make it for 2nd basemen too. =P
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I'm not speaking about specific defensive stats
I’m talking more in generalities.
Collins and Morgan were both considered to be excellent defenders.
Hornsby was considered to be a below-average defender.
Let’s limit it to just Collins and Hornsby, who were contemporaries.
Do you think it is unreasonable to state that the difference between a very good defender at second base, and a below average defender at second base, in that era was 10 runs?
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think it's unreasonable at all...
but it’s just tough for me to do that off of opinions of these guys who played so long ago.
I do respect your argument here. You did what I thought couldn’t be done and present a legitimate argument for Collins and Morgan. I just feel that the raw offensive #’s are too much in favor of Hornsby.
Care to rank them yourself?
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Probably
Morgan
Collins
Hornsby
I think legitimate arguments can be made for those three in any order, and I think that those three are pretty clearly above anyone else.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 14, 2009 11:40 PM CST up reply actions
Catcher will be fun
I’ve always enjoyed the Berra vs Bench argument, with a little Pudge thrown in of course.
Go Rice Owls!
Joe Mauer's name will certainly be among those when all is said and done
by oc on Nov 14, 2009 2:08 PM CST up reply actions
Feliz is the greatest at every position....DONE!
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Excuse me?
"There is the Vegetarian Hot Pocket for those of us who don't want to eat meat, but would still like diarrhea." Jim Gaffigan
by Suicide Prince on Nov 14, 2009 6:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
hmm
c – bench or berra (vote)
1b – gehrig
2b- eddie collins or rogers hornsby or nap lajoie (vote)
3b-mike schmidt
ss- honus wagner
lf – stan musial or ted williams or barry bonds (vote)
rf- babe ruth
cf- ty cobb or willis mays (vote)
starting pitching is a real debate
rhp
walter johnson
cy young
greg maddux
christy mathewson
grover alexander
sandy koufax
pedro martinez
roger clemens
lhp
randy johnson
steve carlton
would AROD be considered utility? 1200 games at short, 870 at third
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
No love for Mantle or Aaron?
"What ... 92 miles per hour?" Feldman scoffed. "That's not gas. Feliz throws gas."
by NorCalRangersFan on Nov 14, 2009 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
mantle was great
but it’s clear that mays and cobb were better.
ok, ruth or aaron. i imagine ruth would win that argument 80% of the time
" This is the inning that propels us to the playoffs. Mark it down."
- Rohn Warshington on Jul 27, 2009 9:19 PM EDT
5th inning against the Tigers
there is no way I put greg maddux above satchel paige
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
I would.
Satchel won less than 30 games in the MLB, and to me the Negro Leagues are about the same as the Japanese leagues or AAA baseball.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Give me Maddux over Satchel as well.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
by Josey Wales on Nov 16, 2009 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
Satchel Paige
debuted as a 42 yr old, and pitched 3 shutout innings in a game at the age of 59. If he had been given the chance to play in the major leagues, he would be considered on of the greatest hands down. It’s not like the guy didn’t face major league players in exhibitions etc.
and any pitcher who pulls his defense of the field, then strikes out the side, is pretty incredible in my book.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
On February 7, 1936, Joe DiMaggio was making his last stop as a minor leaguer before joining the New York Yankees, and he was going to have to face one of baseball’s best pitchers: Satchel Paige. DiMaggio ended up going 1–4 with the game-winning RBI in the bottom of the tenth. A Yankee scout watching the game wired the big club that day a report which read, "DIMAGGIO EVERYTHING WE’D HOPED HE’D BE: HIT SATCH ONE FOR FOUR." DiMaggio himself said he knew now he could make it in the big leagues “because I hit off of Satch.”
I take Satchel Paige any day of the week over Maddux.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Satchel Paige was probably a very, very good pitcher
who could have done well in The Show but it’s still speculation.
Maddux did it.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
by Josey Wales on Nov 16, 2009 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
Look, its a shame
he was unable to play his prime in the Majors, much like its a shame that top Japanese league players don’t play over here. However, he wasn’t in the Majors, and Maddux was, and Maddux won 300+ games and 4 Cy Youngs, and Paige won less than 30 games in the majors.
I honestly don’t care what Paige did in exhibition games or in inferior leagues.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
i don't think wins are that great of a stat
especially comparing that to Satchel when he came into MLB so late in his life, and he was still dominant. i don’t care what league you pitch in, if you have 300 Shutouts, that’s pretty damn good.
I, also, think the brand of baseball in the negro leagues was an exciting brand of baseball which was brought to MLB when they integrated. It is all speculation, but a number of players came from the negro leagues and became MVPs of MLB.
We’ll agree to disagree.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
I don't think
there is any question the top players in the negro leagues were good or great, but those leagues also had a lot of filler that was sub AAA level.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
I'm more interested in AJM resuming his best Rangers list.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
#1
Gerald Laird.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
Bill James did it!!!!!
LoneStarBall....You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
I think this could be interesting
but I wish I could’ve voted for both option 1 and 2.
"Blister please, with those wings in your spine.
Love to be with a brother of mine.
How he'd love to find your tongue in his teeth,
In a struggle to find secret songs that you keep,
Wrapped in boxes so tight, sounding only at night as you sleep." ~Jeff Mangum; Neutral Milk Hotel
WTF is wrong with myself today
I meant options 1 and 4.
"Blister please, with those wings in your spine.
Love to be with a brother of mine.
How he'd love to find your tongue in his teeth,
In a struggle to find secret songs that you keep,
Wrapped in boxes so tight, sounding only at night as you sleep." ~Jeff Mangum; Neutral Milk Hotel
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