Other teams interested in Nelson Cruz
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 23, 2009 7:35 PM CST
180 comments
According to Ken Rosenthal, "a number of teams" have called the Rangers inquiring about Nelson Cruz, but the Rangers aren't motivated to move him.
Last offseason, I identified Cruz as a guy I would try to use as part of a package to land a top-flight starting pitcher in the 09-10 offseason, figuring that a year of productiveness would get him to the point where it made sense to convert him into something else.
But that was before Josh Hamilton and Chris Davis nose-dived, leaving Cruz as one of the few quality bats in place right now. Last year, I thought a David Murphy/Brandon Boggs platoon in left field, Julio Borbon in center field, and Josh Hamilton in right field would be good, with Justin Smoak and Chris Davis holding down the first base and DH spots. Now, every one of those guys is a question mark, meaning that if you move Cruz, you had better do it intending to bring in at least one more quality bat.
But I do think it is revealing that Cruz is drawing interest from around the league...
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but the Rangers aren’t motivated to move him.
Good to hear, since nearly every rumor up to this point has been to the contrary.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 23, 2009 7:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think that's the case
I haven’t really seen any rumors indicating that they are trying to move Cruz.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 23, 2009 7:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's kept coming up in rumors
As a guy we could potentially move. Perhaps that was just others wishful thinking, I dunno.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 23, 2009 7:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the vast majority or rumors this time of year
have incredibly little basis in fact.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 23, 2009 9:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the rumors were started by LSB
People observed that Wash didn’t seem to have a lot of trust in Nellie, local media noticed that it seemed that Wash didn’t trust Nellie so we all started wondering what the Rangers could get for him. However, I haven’t heard anything from the FO indicating they’re shopping him.
It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone. You count on it, rely on it to buffer the passage of time, to keep the memory of sunshine and high skies alive, and then just when the days are all twilight, when you need it most, it stops.
by WyoRanger on Nov 24, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Guess you just missed them then
there were several that flat out said they were.
by Mike E on Nov 24, 2009 12:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course teams are interested...
in a power hitting COFer who plays good defense and is under team control for a few more years at a cheap salary.
Why wouldn’t teams inquire about him?
I just hope this : but the Rangers aren’t motivated to move him, is true.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Nov 23, 2009 7:47 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You don't think Cruz has question marks?
And what if Hamilton bounces back and Cruz nosedives? Do you look back and wonder what you could have gotten had you traded him now?
Im not advocating trading Cruz but so many people immediately dismiss the idea it amazes me. If we can get a nice return I think we have to seriously consider it
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 7:47 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I think AJM just outlined the reason people tend to dismiss trading Cruz above
Considering how hard the offense blows right now, people aren’t keen on trading the guy with the second highest wOBA and OPS+ on the team this year. As well they shouldn’t be.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 23, 2009 7:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Im not keen on it either
But if it improves other areas of our team I consider it.
And as ive said in other threads if we are going to use him as primiarily a DH then I think you have to seriously consider trading him. And since we have heard nothing from the Rangers regarding Cruz moving to LF when we have heard Hamilton is definitely moving to RF then thats what I feel is most likely going to happen. Cruz will be our DH and thus all this talk of his defensive value to us is out the window.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Rangers aren't going to use him primarily as a DH
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 23, 2009 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
lol
here we go again. we need a jon daniels q&a .
by tyd3311 on Nov 23, 2009 8:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would love to hear JD clear up where Cruz is playing next year
Because if he said Cruz was going to be our starting LF next year it would make me feel alot better about things. Until then or someone else saying something definitive then its my belief that Cruz is going to be looked at primarily as the DH next year
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 8:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He also hasn't said...
…Josh Hamilton is going to be our starting RF next year.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 23, 2009 8:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And yet this is constantly stated
as if it were a fact around here.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 23, 2009 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Is this what you've been waiting for?
From: John Daniels [mailto:jd@texasrangers.com]
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2009 10:02 AM
To: Ronald Washington [mailto:rondo@texasrangers.com]
Cc: Big Steve [mailto:large@army.gov]
Subject: RE: Nelson Cruz
Good Morning Ron,
Please let Nellie know that he’ll be playing LF next year. Also, I’ve copied BigSteve on this, just to put his mind at ease.
Thank you,
JD
by robert_d_wilfong on Nov 23, 2009 11:02 PM CST up reply actions 13 recs
Only problem
Misspelled the g.m.’s name
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 23, 2009 11:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just come up with another
that informs everyone of the “correct” spelling of his name.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 24, 2009 12:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And it would be "army.mil," not "army.gov"
Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...
Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?
by Brian Thomas on Nov 24, 2009 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
less
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 24, 2009 7:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fail.
JD needs to tell him he’s going to play every game.
by philkid3 on Nov 24, 2009 1:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
JD needs to tell him he's fired.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 24, 2009 2:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cruz
Why are you so confident they won’t use Cruz primary as a DH?
by Darrell McKown on Nov 23, 2009 8:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't get where you are getting this DH thing
it has never been talked anywhere about Cruz being the DH.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by NothinG on Nov 23, 2009 7:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And where has it been talked about (from Rangers FO people) that Cruz is moving to LF?
They made it a point to say Hamilton is moving to RF. If hes taking Cruz’s spot why won’t they address where Cruz plays next year?
The manager obviously doesn’t feel the same way about Cruz’s defense as most here so why is it so hard to imagine Cruz DHing?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 7:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Every depth chart I've seen
Has Cruz as the first name in RF. I understand that these are not stone tablets from the mount, but it’s what we’ve got to go on at this point.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -
"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce
by Ed Coffin on Nov 24, 2009 12:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't see how you're arriving at this DH conclusion for Cruz
I mean, I like to jump to conclusions myself, but we haven’t heard anything about Nelson Cruz being relegated to DH that I can remember.
If anyone’s getting relegated to DH, it’s more likely to be Hamilton, given his fragility.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 23, 2009 7:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Rangers brass has come out and said Hamilton is moving to RF
That was Cruz’s spot last year. They have not said anything about where Cruz will play. If he was going to be the everyday LF I would think they would say something about it. And given how the manager feels about Cruz’s defense I don’t think its a big stretch to see him being relegated to DH
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 8:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It makes a decent theory, I'll admit that much
Considering the stupidity of the manager, I could see it happening. But until it does there’s no reason to assume that it’s going to happen, because logically there’s no reason for it .
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 23, 2009 8:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
let me ask you this
If Cruz is relegated to DH do you look into trading him?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 8:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and thank you for at least reading my theory
Its been that way since the season ended and everytime ive mentioned Cruz’s name in trades its because of that line of thinking yet so many people see Cruz’s name and automatically want to pile on and try and call me an idiot.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 8:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's because you keep posting like you are an idiot
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Nov 23, 2009 8:16 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
No.
If the organization wants to kill half his value, that’s their own stupidity, not Cruz’s fault.
Hamilton’s fragile, and I doubt he last the entire season in the field no matter where he’s playing. Even if they do make the mistake of relegating Cruz to DH for awhile I think at some point they’ll have to swap him and Hamilton anyway.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 23, 2009 8:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To clarify
I’d trade Cruz as a part of a deal that would help the team significantly, ie, for Johnson or Nolasco. But him being relegated to DH wouldn’t increase my desire to trade him one way or the other because he’s still one of our better offensive players and he’s still got the potential to provide defensive value at some point.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 23, 2009 8:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Marlins
won’t take Cruz. He’s the type of guy they would be trying to trade right now, not trade for
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Nov 24, 2009 7:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why is that?
Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...
Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?
by Brian Thomas on Nov 24, 2009 12:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No
The Marlins would be a perfect fit for Cruz. He is not eligible for arbitration yet. He is a power hitting OFer, so they can move Coghland to 2B. He is cheap and won’t make a lot of money until 2 years from now. They could let him roam the OF for two seasons, and then flip him for prospects when his salary really starts to escalate.
by Stephen Rushin on Nov 24, 2009 1:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Coghlan
I don’t know why I threw an extra “d” on there.
by Stephen Rushin on Nov 24, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What other areas do the Rangers need to improve
that is more important than the offense/defense combo that Cruz gives?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Nov 23, 2009 8:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well again
If he is primarily DH then there is no offense/defense combo to consider because his defensive value goes out the window.
And I don’t think its hard to find upgrades on a 850 OPS DH who struggles against LHP.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 8:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
I don’t think there are a ton of cheap upgrades on an 850 OPS DH out there right now.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 23, 2009 8:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it may cost you some money
But nothing that should be breaking the bank even for this club
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 8:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
let me get back to you on that one
I don’t have a list of names off the top of my head
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 8:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You don't?
Hideki, Bradley, Vlad, Burrell, Thome, Gary
by tyd3311 on Nov 23, 2009 9:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm just saying that's the pool of DH's available
whether or not they can put up an OPS of .850 is a matter of opinion
by tyd3311 on Nov 23, 2009 9:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think any of those guys...
…are likely to post an 850 OPS next year.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 23, 2009 9:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
.850 OPS
Bradley will, and think Matsui is likely to.
The bigger question is how many games they will play, though.
by Darrell McKown on Nov 23, 2009 9:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bradley
In 10 seasons, he’s had an 850+ OPS 3 times.
I was surprised to see that Matsui was over 850 last season. I think he’s probably no better than even money to break that again, though.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 23, 2009 9:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thome
He probably puts up an .850 OPS playing half his games in Arlington as well.
by Darrell McKown on Nov 23, 2009 9:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fangraphs has Thome pegged for about a .365 wOBA next year
http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/jim-thome
So I don’t think he’d quite OPS 850, going off of that, but somewhere in the 840’s maybe.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 23, 2009 10:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
here are a few
Thome
Giambi
Dunn
DeRosa (who also offers backup positioning at several positions)
Figgins (same as above)
Cameron (who plays in center)
by iblum on Nov 24, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
None of those guys...
…is real likely to give you more than an 850 OPS, except for Dunn, who is going to be fairly expensive in terms of prospects given up and in terms of salary.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 24, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
uh
Last year Thome failed to reach .850 OPS for the second time since 1992. His total was .847
Giambi’s record is more spotty, but he did put up an OPS of .876 in 2008.
DeRosa’s OPS in 2008 was .857, and while that may be a peak value, he’s alot younger than Thome or Giambi and has some positional flexibility to make up for his lack of offense. (He could back up Young, Kinsler, Davis, and the entire outfield.
Figgins you are right on, he probably won’t hit .850, but he offers positional flexibility like DeRosa, and he offers speed, which goes well with speedy guys like Kinsler, Elvis, and Borbon.
Cameron probably also won’t hit .850, but he can play center very well.
All of this is discounting the fact that our ballpark will give any of them a significant boost to their OPS.
by iblum on Nov 24, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Teams wouldn't play Cruz at DH just because the Ranges thought about doing so next season
Did Soriano go to Washington and play 2B?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Nov 24, 2009 9:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Please don't do this with Cruz again...
we know your thoughts on him.
Almost every player in the league has question marks. You can’t trade them all.
Plus, your idea of a “nice return” for Nellie is far less than the idea of a “nice return” most here have.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Nov 23, 2009 7:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Most peoples idea of a "nice return" for Cruz are unrealistic
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 7:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Most trade rumors are
I had a paper route when I was a kid. I was supposed to go to 2,000 houses. Or two dumpsters.
by TheBZA on Nov 23, 2009 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No...
what I’m saying there is that Josh Willingham is not a “nice return” for Nellie.
Now as NothinG says above, if the Marlins are willing to listen to offers for Johnson centered around a deal for Nellie then I’m all ears. Otherwise, no dice.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Nov 23, 2009 7:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, I'll listen...
I think the package for Nolasco would have to be a little less though.
If you can get Nolasco or Johnson for Cruz+ I’d be willing to listen.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Nov 23, 2009 8:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 23, 2009 8:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the package for Nolasco would have to be a little less though.
I think Nolasco is under contract longer so it’s going to take more to get him away from the Marlins.
"Stats are like a woman in a fine little bikini. You can see a lot, but you can't see everything." -Dirk A. Tron
by coolaid on Nov 23, 2009 8:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no way
Nolasco is in arbitration as well and has been inconsistent. Josh Johnson’s value is much higher than Nolasco’s at this point
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by NothinG on Nov 23, 2009 8:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nolasco has very good stuff
2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
by boomer1 on Nov 23, 2009 8:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
definitely
but his value is lower at this point.
I would love to get Nolasco. I think you can buy a little lower on him. After 2008, Nolasco was the 2009 version of Josh Johnson.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by NothinG on Nov 23, 2009 8:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like them both...
but I Johnson a little more than Nolasco.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Nov 23, 2009 8:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm really tired of this kind of thinking.
I think the number of years remaining under team control is vastly overvalued as a component of player evaluation for trade purposes. It needs to stop.
by JDT217 on Nov 24, 2009 5:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, you're right
cost certainty and lower roster turnover of talented players are meaningless.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 24, 2009 9:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, teams look to trade the Lee's and Halladay's of the world
just because they get tired of looking at their faces.
by swampdonkey on Nov 25, 2009 8:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yep, it depends on the +
would cruz and a couple low level arms do it for Nolasco
Johnson would probably take Cruz + Top Tier Arm + Low Level Arm
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by NothinG on Nov 23, 2009 8:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cruz + Boscan + Kiker?
2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
by boomer1 on Nov 23, 2009 8:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that is close to fair on both sides
2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
by boomer1 on Nov 23, 2009 8:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But you won't give up Holland for Berkman?
"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris
by Chase Irwin on Nov 23, 2009 8:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not speaking for Adam but...
…I wouldn’t. Not when Smoak is waiting in the wings and I do believe Davis will return to what he was when he came up.
2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
by boomer1 on Nov 23, 2009 8:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Holland for Berkman
You wouldn’t give up Holland for Berkman?
Berkman would be just what this team needs, and he’s signed for two years.
by Darrell McKown on Nov 23, 2009 8:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we need bats more
Holland + Moreland + Ross for Berkman.
Berkman covers for Smoak / Davis in the interim. Trading Cruz would put a ton of pressure on the offense next season.
"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris
by Chase Irwin on Nov 23, 2009 8:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
You would trade a TORP for a guy who covers for a couple of AAA/Major league players “in the interim”? Not me.
by Heebs on Nov 23, 2009 10:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Holland is not a TORP yet.
Berkman is about as good insurance as we would be able to get, I imagine. Did you have any other targets in mind that can put up his numbers over the next couple of seasons?
"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris
by Chase Irwin on Nov 23, 2009 10:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Berkman
He isn’t a “guy who covers for a couple of AAA/Major league players”.
He’s what Justin Smoak hopes to become.
by Darrell McKown on Nov 23, 2009 10:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You wouldn't do Holland for Berkman straight up?
My proposal yesterday of Smoak + Holland for Berkman I can understand as being too steep. I was listing the max I would give up as a big Berkman fan. But straight up, you have to make that deal. Berkman unquestionably becomes the best hitter on this team for the next two years.
Yeah, Holland may turn out to be great. But we’re talking about a serious position of strength here – it isn’t as if he is the only pitching prospect in the organization. Holland’s probability of putting up TORG numbers can’t be more than 30% (and that isn’t a knock on Holland – pitchers are just risky like that). Berkman is as known a commodity as you’re ever going to get.
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 23, 2009 11:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd have to think about it
Let’s say that the alternative is Nick Johnson at 2 years, $12 million.
And let’s assume that either guy is going to be used at DH.
This past season, Berkman created 98 EQR, Johnson 87. Berkman, as a DH, would have been worth about 1 win more than Johnson, and at a cost of $9 million more.
CHONE projects Berkman to be 3 runs better than Johnson in 2010.
PECOTA has Berkman at 33 runs above average for 2010, 24 in 2011.
Johnson, it has at 15 runs above average for 2010 and 14 in 2011. 2 wins in 2010 and 1 win in 2011.
The big risk with Johnson is obviously the injury situation. You are hoping to get 120 games out of him.
But the fact that you’ve got depth in your system, in guys like Smoak and Moreland and Max in the minors, plus Josh Hamilton, who probably should DH some, helps mitigate that. The dropoff if Johnson is hurt shouldn’t be quite as immense…having other viable options, even if they aren’t great, makes it more reasonable to roll the dice on an injury risk than if you are staring at a black hole if your guy doesn’t work.
So, yeah, sitting here thinking about it, I’d pass on dealing Holland for Berkman.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 23, 2009 11:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well
that is a nice choice you’ve thrown out there. Of course if you can get Johnson for 2/$12 and he’s healthy then the Rangers should do that instead of trading for any first baseman short of Pujols. But it isn’t obvious that Johnson will be available for that much – maybe he’s asking for 2/$20 with several bidders. Maybe he isn’t healthy when you look at him.
If the choice was Holland for Berkman or make no move at all; you’d really still pass? I can’t be comfortable going into 2010 with the offense this team finished 2009 with. Smoak needs more time in AAA. At best, Max is coming off an off year. Davis is one gigantic question mark – he’s either an all star or a minor leaguer. I’m not ready to rely on Moreland quite yet either.
Berkman would be expensive, both in $$$ and in Holland, but he is buying a whole lot of reliability. Part of Berkman’s value is that you know what you’re getting. He’s expensive because there is very little downside risk with him. Really the opposite of Holland. At some point, the Rangers have to consider cashing in some of these high potential chips for guys with known value.
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 23, 2009 11:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
First of all, I don’t think Johnson is going to get significantly more than 2/$12. I don’t know that he’ll get a 2 year deal…I think 1/$5 will probably be the number, but I was trying to be more aggressive in my factoring there.
There are other guys who are out there that you can pursue. Get Jim Thome on a one year deal. Get Hideki Matsui on a one year deal. Go see if Josh Willingham is non-tendered.
You can get bats. I am just not all that interested in going after a 34 year old first baseman who would cost our top young pitcher, will cost $15 million per year the next two years, and isn’t exactly a fitness fanatic (which has me concerned about his decline rate).
If Berkman were 28, it may be a different story. But you’re taking an awful big risk that his decline is going to be gentle.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 23, 2009 11:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Berkman
Houston wouldn’t trade him to the Rangers, anyway. Dayton would see to that.
"I cannot believe how fucking off base I was about Tiny E before this season. The Kid is great and is going to become a star."
- Wails
by RCCook on Nov 23, 2009 11:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
...Drayton?
Dayton would sell him off for Michael Kirkman and Joe Wieland.
Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.
by jonthefon on Nov 24, 2009 3:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Drayton
Just like he wouldn’t trade Pudge to the Rangers?
by Darrell McKown on Nov 24, 2009 6:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Drayton would
because it would save him a ton of money, but Berkman has said he doesn’t want to go anywhere else, so don’t look for him to move on. Also he is showing all the signs of being in decline. Last season he had a huge stretch of the season where he couldn’t hit a homer to save his life.
by MikeEl on Nov 24, 2009 8:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Johnson
I have to believe he’s going to get more than 2/$12 million or especially 1/$5 million.
If that’s really the market for him, then I would offer him 1/$9 million out of the gate and protect him as best I could making him the full-time DH.
by Darrell McKown on Nov 24, 2009 6:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
That’s basically what Fangraphs concluded before the offseason even started.
And that’s what I’d like to see us do. It’s also what won’t happen, because the Rangers apparently have less money than I do.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 24, 2009 7:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
we need to pass a collection bucket around
to help get someone signed
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by NothinG on Nov 24, 2009 7:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've been meaning to do a post on this subject
I’m going to put it up after Thanksgiving, I think.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 23, 2009 8:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'd trade cruz to get Nolasco
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 23, 2009 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yep and not think twice
2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
by boomer1 on Nov 23, 2009 9:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Only if you get Cody Ross back, as well
by tyd3311 on Nov 23, 2009 9:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Um. Will Carroll lurks here.
You might not have heard what about what he does about, um, over-eager trade proposals.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
by rooster on Nov 23, 2009 9:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He was the best outfielder on the team last year
And the 2nd or 3rd best position player.
Does he have question marks? Yes. But he probably has fewer of them than any of the other players I listed at this point.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 23, 2009 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Id say hamilton has fewer question marks around him
And he and Davis are about equal IMO
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 8:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
by he I mean Cruz
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 8:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see how you can say that
Curz at least can stay healthy
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 23, 2009 9:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cruz even
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 23, 2009 9:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He can?
He sprained his ankle running into a wall in Oakland in August if I remember right.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 9:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
lol.
This is great.
"Stats are like a woman in a fine little bikini. You can see a lot, but you can't see everything." -Dirk A. Tron
by coolaid on Nov 23, 2009 9:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
????
Did he not sprain his ankle and have to go on the DL?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 9:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That can happen to any player...
at anytime though. It doesn’t mean he’s injury prone and has questions marks around him.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Nov 23, 2009 9:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OK
Well any outfielder can run into a wall and hurt himself also.
And Cruz’s question marks run deeper than his injury proneness IMO.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 9:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think what makes hamilton’s health more of a concern is he has a longer track record of injury troubles, and he’s had injuries that seem to linger or reappear.
and lets not neglect that the threat of a relapse or a conduct-related suspension is a huge issue that makes cruz less of a question mark than hamilton. im not saying i think it will happen, but even if you put it at say a 5% chance of happening, that’s a pretty significant thing that makes him less of a sure thing.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Nov 23, 2009 10:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Davis?
Really, you’re getting into Josey territory with your hyperbole. There is no way Cruz’s question marks are in the same ballpark’s as Davis’s
I’m not sure if you saw 2009, but the downside to Davis is that he’s in AAA all season. I’m pretty sure Cruz’s downside is that he’s one of the most productive 4th OF in the league.
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 23, 2009 11:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Cruz could drop off alot more than that
Sorry I don’t have the blind faith in Cruz that so many others here have. Deal with it
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 11:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I dont think its blind faith
to say that the Rangers top defensive COF that has a ton of power and good speed is at the absolute worst a 4th OF.
by UNTJosh on Nov 23, 2009 11:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think alot of people have forgotten what he did before last September in the majors
And while hes not likely to drop that far I don’t think its completely out of the realm to say he could drop to a mid-upper 700 OPS player. I don’t think that would be considered the most productive 4th OF in the league
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 11:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to necessarily take Large Steven's side, but. . .
. . . it is entirely possible that Cruz’s defense this year was a fluke. I don’t think I need to espouse the doctrine of how small a sample one season of defensive data is to the smart group here.
I would doubt it, as he had a solid defensive reputation coming up and he’s an athletic guy, but I don’t think we can safely assume he’s really the GG caliber talent we saw this year. He likely is, but I don’t want to just assume this.
Yes, I didn’t really need to post this. I just like the clicky sound my keyboard makes.
by philkid3 on Nov 24, 2009 1:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
if you look at all OF with a min of 200 PA
and an ops of .775 (mid to upper 700’s) you find that 57 players met said criteria in 2009.
30 × 3 OF = 90. Even with those parameters hes still better than a 4th OF.
by UNTJosh on Nov 24, 2009 1:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
a lot more than that?
Davis dropped off more than almost any player in history. I’m pretty sure Cruz can’t drop off “a lot more” than Davis did.
Hey, I’m all for trading Cruz in the right deal. His value is obviously higher than it has ever been, there is no guarantee it will continue to increase. Most of your points have some good foundation to them (while I don’t agree with the conclusion) But really… as risky as Chris Davis?
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Nov 23, 2009 11:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
With Davis
I think we’ve seen his ceiling (2008 post callup) and his floor (2009 pre demotion) all in the not too distant past.
With Cruz his struggles happened what seemed like so long ago that its my belief alot of people have forgotten them. Im not saying hes gonna drop to that level but the feeling I get is that people are taking what he did last year and thinking hes automatically gonna reproduce that.
We don’t know how hes gonna react to a winter of not playing baseball. The logical thinking is it should allow him to rest and be strong for the entire 2010 season. But who knows. Maybe hes the kind of guy who has benefitted from no time off the last several years and this offseason screws him up. What if he starts next season off really really slow and doesn’t get on track till June or the ASB?
What if he plays LF and his defensive numbers don’t translate?
Maybe im just being overly pessimistic or don’t want to get my expectations crushed I don’t know but I don’t think my line of reasoning is that bad on why we should be considering trading Cruz. Not for prospects but for established major league players. Maybe I would just feel alot more comfortable with a Josh Willingham type guy who I know is going to put up a OPS in the 850-860 range. Sure Cruz could go for a 880+ but he could also go for a 800 just as easily IMO.
For me Cruz has a ton of question marks.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 11:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone can and should be traded for the right return
The problem with Nellie and this team is that its hard to envision the Rangers getting the right return. As mentioned, given the team’s offense last year, if Nellie is traded the Rangers absolutely have to replace his offense somehow, either the trade of Nellie himself, another trade or a FA. Problem is, why go through all of that machination to replace Nellie’s production when he’s already here?
It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone. You count on it, rely on it to buffer the passage of time, to keep the memory of sunshine and high skies alive, and then just when the days are all twilight, when you need it most, it stops.
by WyoRanger on Nov 24, 2009 10:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"I do think it is revealing that Cruz is drawing interest from around the league..."
What does it reveal? That Cruz is awesome?
by NoNameOnCard on Nov 23, 2009 7:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
No Cruz trades.
"Clearly, I've been wrong. VY is awesome." - AJM
by Longhorn on Nov 23, 2009 8:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Schafer
I know it doesn’t mean anything but I just read 3-4 Braves fans saying they would trade Schafer for Cruz.
Should we if it’s on the table?
What else would we have to include along with Cruz to get Heyward? Would something like Cruz and Main for Heyward work?
I would trade some pitching depth along with Cruz to upgrade the OF position.
by Coolbean04 on Nov 23, 2009 8:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Cruz for Schafer? That’s not the kind of trade a team with playoff aspirations should be making.
by chrisR on Nov 23, 2009 10:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Of Course not a big shocker
He was in the Home Run Derby and he is One Hell of a hitter.
Please keep he is One GREAT PLAYER!
IF you see a opportunity you take the opportunity
It's Hard to be a Spurs Fan in Dallas
by sportsfan900 on Nov 23, 2009 8:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
ah yes, home run derby = awesomeness
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 23, 2009 9:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
just ask Hamilton
see how awesome he was after the HR derby two years ago.
by chrisR on Nov 23, 2009 10:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You have A strange WAY with capiTalization SportsFan
Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...
Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?
by Brian Thomas on Nov 24, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think it is more of an indication of the poor OF FA market than anything.
Usually you would think mainly the low payroll teams would be interested in the value per dollar spent that Cruz represents. But, when there aren’t better players on the market, suddenly everyone is interested.
I don’t think the Rangers are gonna accept a prospect package for Cruz, though.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
by rooster on Nov 23, 2009 9:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Given
Hamilton’s injury issues, why wouldn’t you DH him and play Cruz in RF, or, alternatively, play one of Hamilton or Cruz in LF?
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Nov 23, 2009 10:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
That would be the logical scenario.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by lonestarJon on Nov 23, 2009 10:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Seems like the logical thing to do
especially since Hamilton’s bat is a lot more valuable than his defense
I think Luke French has a lot of potential. TORP potential.-Dstar
by sprite on Nov 23, 2009 10:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think thats what most Rangers fans would like to see
But given our manager I don’t think thats the most likely outcome
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 10:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Because teams somehow don't want to DH stars, I think.
That’s the best conclusion I can come to, because this situation seems to happen to a lot of people.
by philkid3 on Nov 24, 2009 1:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
@BtB_Sky Teams are interested in Nelson Cruz? Well, so are the Rangers. Shouldn’t even trade him for Halladay straight up.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 23, 2009 10:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
halladay plus a quality arm then?
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Nov 23, 2009 10:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
hah
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 23, 2009 10:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
x
@BtB_Sky @sublime8414 One year versus four years. $16M for Halladay vs. free, $1-2M, $2-5M, $3-10M for Cruz.
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 23, 2009 10:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah..
if Cruz hits next year, the same way he did this year, he’s not gonna make just $2M in his first year of arb.
by chrisR on Nov 23, 2009 10:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not much more than that though
Age does play a factor in arbitration rulings and a guy whos only entering his 1st arbitration year at 30.5 years old isn’t going to make as much. I think if he puts up another season like 09 he gets 3.5-4.5 mil
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Nov 23, 2009 10:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How many teams
like Cruz better than his own manager? Over 20?
by Brett Perryman on Nov 23, 2009 10:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'd say every team plus the Rangers FO
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Nov 23, 2009 10:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
bigsteve:Washington::Heyman:Boras
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Nov 24, 2009 1:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Angels after Halladay, via rotoworld
According to the Los Angeles Times, the Angels have resumed their pursuit of Toronto ace Roy Halladay.
The Angels engaged the Blue Jays in trade talks for Halladay this summer, but were unwilling to meet then-GM J.P. Ricciardi’s asking price. The Halos’ general manager, Tony Reagins, is hoping discussions will run a bit more positively this winter, though it’s still going to take a hefty package of prospects to land the 32-year-old right-hander. Jered Weaver, Ervin Santana or Joe Saunders may also have to be involved, according to the L.A. Times. Nov. 23 – 10:17 pm et
Source: Los Angeles Times
by tyd3311 on Nov 23, 2009 10:59 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
lol
Let the Angels go after him. Who do they have to give up that wouldn’t kill them in the long run (as well as the possible short run).
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on Nov 24, 2009 10:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Rhyner says
he can’t play the outfield.
by Randy Richardson on Nov 23, 2009 11:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
remember that one game he played in LF and jumped up for a HR ball at the foul pole...
..but the ball was actually about 10 feet to the right
by Mike E on Nov 24, 2009 12:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
rhyner's dead
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Nov 24, 2009 7:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Grilli tweets, "Well it is official. I am signing with my 7th team. Can you guess? Drum roll please! Will let ya know when I am able."
’ If, as it appears from Grilli’s comment, this is his seventh different team, that rules out the Giants, Marlins, White Sox, Tigers, Rockies and Rangers. ’
by Mike E on Nov 24, 2009 12:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
oh goody ....I hope it's someone we play often
Good help doesn't come cheap.
- Gil LeBreton
by BigGuns on Nov 24, 2009 1:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really give a crap about where Jason Grilli signs.
by chrisR on Nov 24, 2009 1:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I do!
I’d love to see Cruz, Kins and Hammy tee off on his meatballs on a regular basis.
Good help doesn't come cheap.
- Gil LeBreton
by BigGuns on Nov 24, 2009 1:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he was good in the first half..
not sure how much injury played a role in his second half demise.
Good help doesn't come cheap.
- Gil LeBreton
by BigGuns on Nov 24, 2009 1:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
without all the natural talent
you mean?
by MikeEl on Nov 24, 2009 8:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not looking to move him either
but if he can be the centerpiece for a good, young pitcher, I think you have to do the deal.
by Sherman McCoy on Nov 24, 2009 10:31 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
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