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Mass Murder at Fort Hood


I have to keep short as I am on an abbreviated lunch break.  First I want to say that we should all pray in our own way for all those affected by this incident.  Can you imagine what it would feel like if any of those casualties were your family?  I mean you almost assuredly dread it every time they are deployed to a combat zone, but the fact that these people met their end so violently here at home on a military installation...that's just crazy. 

I have some questions about this, though.  And some of it may sound cold but I want you to know right up front that I don't mean it to be that way.  They're just quesitons.

 

The shooter, who is apparently still alive, acted alone.  He had two handguns.  I've never been in the army but I assume officers are issued the standard M9 9mm pistol, and he may have got another somehow or maybe used different guns all together.  But if he used M9s, as I understand it they can only hold a maximum of 20 rounds in an extended magazine plus another in the chamber.  Between two guns, that would of course account for 42 rounds.  13 people were killed and another 31 were wounded.  That adds up to 44 rounds, and I think it's a safe bet that he didn't hit his mark with every single shot.  In fact he was taken down in an exchange of fire with a civilian police officer. 

Anyway, the point is he had to reload at some point.  Now it does take a little time to reload a pistol like the M9 and it's not very much, but I have trouble understanding how in a room full of trained soldiers this guy wasn't taken out before he shot so many. 

I'm just having trouble wrapping my head around how this guy did this.  You cannot fire two handguns simultaneously with any degree of accuracy.  I've tried and I've seen far better marksmen than me try, and that was always at a shooting range.  Even if the guy could do it that would explain how he shot a lot of people quickly, but even then at some point he would have ended up with two empty guns. 

I just don't get it.  There's something I'm missing.  What is it?  I've been hearing about this story on the radio all morning and it's been bothering me on several different levels.  Any ideas about how, though?  And yes it appears the guy as a muslim or something but let's please not get into that or politics or anything.

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reloading

Those looking to stop him would need time to respond to the situation, and they wouldn’t know exactly when he was reloading as opposed to simply pausing in firing. I saw a quote from a soldier yesterday that they are unarmed unless in a specific training exercise or target practice, so few would have had the means to shoot him.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Nov 6, 2009 11:52 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I do NOT mean to belittle soldiers

But at Columbine High School students rushed one of those guys. This was a small room. You can only shoot in one direction at a time. Even if he were still firing I can’t see how he weren’t tackled and brought down. Of course I wasn’t there but it just doesn’t make sense to me. I know that soldiers on base aren’t typically armed unless they’re training or are MP. If they had been the shooter wouldn’t have stood a chance. This would have been over very quickly.

by Black Francis on Nov 6, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I believe the Columbine thing was in a hallway

From what i recall someone tried to run up behind one of those guys and tackle them but were shot in the process.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 6, 2009 12:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Columbine

Ok, but in that situation the students weren’t facing a trained soldier. I understand completely the urge to ask how on earth this could happen and why it wasn’t stopped sooner, but otoh, we simply can’t know exactly what the situation was like and comparisons to other incidents are probably useless.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Nov 6, 2009 12:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes.

We can speculate all we want. And say, “I would have done this,” or “they should have done that,” in fact, I’ve done the same thing when pondering how I would react in one of these dire situations. But the thing is, it is absolutely impossible to imagine what it would be like for the people going through something like that first hand. The thoughts, emotions, and adrenaline that would arise from actually being emersed in a situation like that prevent us from meaningfully commenting on what should have been done.

"...like some Russian priest fresh off a bottle of potato vodka and a box of cigars." -t ball

by rangerdanger on Nov 6, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I didn't mean that

…I would have done anything differently. You’re honestly surprised that this guy could have fired off that many rounds in a room full of soldiers without one of them finding a way to stop him? I’m just saying it sounded odd to me. I’m not saying they were pussies or that there were other shooters or anything else. I’m just seeking to understand how it may have happened. Some of the replies here have been good ones. I didn’t know that 30 round clips were available for handguns with the exception of something like a MAC-10, which is really a sub-machine gun. Really high capacity magazines like that would go a long way toward explaining how this guy shot so many. So would the friendly fire. From the initial reports that I heard there wasn’t any friendly fire but there’s some speculation about that now.

by Black Francis on Nov 6, 2009 4:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

This is apparently the weapon he used:

http://www.remtek.com/arms/fn/57/

It’s a 9 mm and holds 20 rounds in the magazine. He was also carrying a .357 but apparently didn’t fire it.

"Blalock in the cleanup spot makes gives me agita." - Dustin

by benmor78 on Nov 7, 2009 6:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yikes

So then he had to refill the magazine more than 5 times since he fired off over a hundred shots they say.

Good help doesn't come cheap.

- Gil LeBreton

by BigGuns on Nov 7, 2009 9:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Unlikely.

He just probably carried multiple magazines.

"Blalock in the cleanup spot makes gives me agita." - Dustin

by benmor78 on Nov 7, 2009 10:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He could have

but the 5.7 round flies supersonic and is made to go through body armor so its highly likely he hit more than one person per round.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE

by 525DP on Nov 7, 2009 10:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It was 3 minutes from when...

he started firing to when he encountered the lady police officer, and he fired on her, too. So he likely was carrying multiple magazines.

"Blalock in the cleanup spot makes gives me agita." - Dustin

by benmor78 on Nov 7, 2009 10:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

BTW, how Jarrod's arm doing?

"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.

by Kinslerhomer on Nov 7, 2009 2:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

how is*

"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.

by Kinslerhomer on Nov 7, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks for asking

He’s doing well and has been ahead of schedule with rehab. He hasnt felt any pain or numbness since the surgery and will be going to the Dominican at the end of the month for 2-3 weeks to help get ready for ST.

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒE

by 525DP on Nov 7, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's great news

Good luck to him.

"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.

by Kinslerhomer on Nov 7, 2009 5:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That ad is hilarious
High stopping power: The Five-seveN® fires the 5.7×28mm SS190 Ball round which reliably penetrates Kevlar helmets and vests as well as CRISAT protection.

High hit probability: The Five-seveN’s® extremely low recoil impulse results in virtually no muzzle climb, thereby facilitating fast and controllable follow-up shots.

Yet, the Five-seveN® is:

Light and ergonomic: Weighing 30% less than most 9mm pistols, the smoothly-contoured Five-seveN® is comfortable to carry and quick to deploy.

Low recoil and low weight rarely rarely = high stopping power.

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Nov 11, 2009 5:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I've actually heard of that gun

They say it’s all true…something to do with the round it fires. Hard to imagine something so small having that much stopping power but who knows…

by Black Francis on Nov 11, 2009 6:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd heard of it, but never read or seen a thing on it either way

Digging around a little, I couldn’t really get a definitive feel on the gun.

The caliber is roughly equivalent to a .22. That is fucking tiny. That explains the whole “low weight AND low recoil” claim, but remains counterintuitive to the “high stopping power” assertion.

I have read articles/ tests that extolled the armor piercing capabilities of certain super high velocity rounds, but I have also read more convincing refutations, citing FBI ballistics, that dispell the idea that smaller calibers, like anything from the 9/.38 on down, and certainly a .25 or .22, can rival the stopping power of a .45.,357, .44, etc.

Another example of the ad’s silliness:

Fully safe: Due to its double-action firing mechanism, the Five-seveN® offers no inherent risk of accidental discharge during transportation. Furthermore, all of its safety devices are automatically reengaged following each firing cycle.

Double action only sucks. Turrible. I’d never buy a DAO gun again. As a 1911 guy, you know what I mean. You have the choice to fire single action or double, when would you ever choose double?

Any semi-auto made during the last 15 years offers the same internal safeties. That’s like saying your Buick is better because it has a catalytic converter.

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Nov 11, 2009 9:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

single action

It’s much smoother and it’s definitely simpler. You can’t beat a 1911 or similar for simplicity. It makes some people nervous, though. For example when my friend comes over before we go to the range and I get it out to unload it, he always bitches about it being unsafe to have it cocked and a round chambered. Maybe that’s why some people like DA. I hope to God I never have to use the thing in anger, but in case I do I keep a round in the chamber and the hammer back, safety engaged. But that would be the main disadvantage to a lot of people. You can’t keep it ready to fire in the same way you can with a double action and a “ready” 1911 looks really scary to them.

Anyway, I don’t understand how a .22 could have stopping power, either. I can’t remember the fps of that round but if it goes right through a person it’s not always going to stop them. That’s why I choose a .45 over a 9mm. A small round like five-seven’s may explain how the motherfucker hit so many and killed so few. Can you imagine if he had a larger caliber?

About the ad, the fact that they’d call a handgun “fully safe” is stupid in and of itself. There’s no such thing.

by Black Francis on Nov 12, 2009 12:11 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't see how it works.

Because the only way to have the same stopping power is if it has speed, and doesn’t pass through. Stopping power is basicly a measure of how much momentum is lost by the bullet and gained by they body.

Since a .22 is 5 to 10 times less massive than a 45 cal bullet, it would have to go 5 to 10 times faster, and its real tough to see how it goes that fast without passing through. It would have to go 4000 to 8000 ft/sec or around Mach 4-7 or so, and then fragment completely in the body and not pass through.

I just don’t see it.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Nov 12, 2009 2:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They say

…that the round tumbles after penetration. I don’t know whether that’s true or not, but that’s what they say.

by Black Francis on Nov 12, 2009 3:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If the Readiness Center was really crowded

There could have been numerous people hit per shot.

Favorite bumper sticker of all time, seen on a VW bus:
"Gas, Grass, or Ass. Nobody rides for free"

by tricer on Nov 6, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

it was and..

he got on a table where he was shooting down on them which made it easier for him to hit more people faster since they were in cubicles (a lot of them).

Good help doesn't come cheap.

- Gil LeBreton

by BigGuns on Nov 6, 2009 12:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There's also speculation about some friendly fire injuries

That would certainly account for some of the shots.

The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano

by bking on Nov 6, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hate to ignore your request about leaving the Muslim part out of this

But to me, the story in these type tragedies is always tied to motive. What could lead someone to such a horrible act? In this case, early reports seem to indicate that his religious beliefs also served as his motivation, so that is an integral part of the story IMO.

Favorite bumper sticker of all time, seen on a VW bus:
"Gas, Grass, or Ass. Nobody rides for free"

by tricer on Nov 6, 2009 11:56 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

well yeh

especially if it is indeed true like it’s been reported by some at the scene that he was yelling allahu akbar or allah is the greatest as he shot people. It seems a lot is leading back to that theory based on what he posted on his blogs and told others.

Good help doesn't come cheap.

- Gil LeBreton

by BigGuns on Nov 6, 2009 12:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well there should be a "why?" discussion at some point.

I think we should wait until we know more for that, though. So what’s on my mind at the moment is the “how?”.

Really I just don’t want a bunch of racist shit to come up in a topic I created. It doesn’t sound at all like you were going in that direction, but you know how these discussions get.

by Black Francis on Nov 6, 2009 12:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It isn't racial, it's ethnic

And probably the only rational thing to discuss about this massacre.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -

"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce

by Ed Coffin on Nov 6, 2009 3:47 PM CST up reply actions   1 recs

Heh, Ok Ed.

I’m a white boy who doesn’t think a black man is good enough to manage my baseball team.-Lonestarjon

Drew effing Gooden??? F U Donnie.

by AirJordan on Nov 6, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think it's a bit presumptuous

to attribute any particular motives to the shooter, whether they be racial, ethnic, or none of the above. So I don’t think one can dismiss the potential for any speculative discussion of his motives to touch on racism.

by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Nov 6, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and by 'touch on racism' i mean

devolve into the ‘racist bullshit’ he mentioned.

by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Nov 6, 2009 4:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Especially since a good percentage of the terrorist acts carried out within our borders have been by white, Christian Americans.

Idiots like this fellow at Ford Hood or the 9-11 hijackers are no more representative of Islam than abortion clinic bombers, Eric Rudolph, or the guy who killed Dr. Tiller are of Christianity.

Pretty much every faith out there has its extremists.

"I cannot believe how fucking off base I was about Tiny E before this season. The Kid is great and is going to become a star."

- Wails

by RCCook on Nov 6, 2009 4:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sigh

OK. Pitiful.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -

"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce

by Ed Coffin on Nov 6, 2009 5:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pitiful?

Do you care to elaborate on that? Everybody considers you some kind of god around here and for the life of me I never understood why. But you never were one to call people names, at least that I saw.

And, no, it doesn’t make any sense for you to say ethnicity is the only thing worth talking about concerning what happened yesterday.

by Black Francis on Nov 6, 2009 5:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Excuse any phantasm opinion

I mean no personal animosity or disrespect, and don’t care for name calling. Pitiful is the situation where someone educated, literate, and articulate does not fathom that a professed Muslim, facing a choice between honoring his oath to serve his country or dishonoring it to uphold his religion, takes the latter choice.

Please look up the report to the AP given by his cousin, Nader, who evidently is respectful both of their faith and the obligation to serve. The Major didn’t have to go out jihad style unless he chose to die rather than serve in a military capacity against those of his faith. That he did so is a sorrow to everyone concerned. I hoped not to get into detail, or mouth the rather prophetic intel that I’ve had access to (see unilateral sanctions, multilateral sanctions in the export administration regulations of the United States) since 1991. Some of which began to be reported in the late 1970’s, specifically that those of the Islamic faith are taught by mullahs both here and abroad to advocate peace but keep their faith and its’ tenets first in life and in death.

The difference between 9 /11 and the Fort Hood shootings is one of scale, not one of purpose.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -

"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce

by Ed Coffin on Nov 6, 2009 6:03 PM CST up reply actions   2 recs

I'm simply withholding judgement.

I am certainly not ready to agree with your last sentence.

The only AP article I found readily that had Nader’s comments in it was this. And I heard a radio interview with presumably the same guy on KRLD this afternoon.

I don’t think anything is conclusive yet.

by Black Francis on Nov 6, 2009 6:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I have to agree with Ed, here

You cannot possibly discuss this incident without his religion being a key factor, and likely the most important one.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Nov 7, 2009 2:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sociopathy doesn't enter into it?

There are people who don’t know the difference between right and wrong, and then there are those that think wrong is right.

This sounds more like a mental issue than a religious one.

by NoNameOnCard on Nov 7, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's not really sociopathy

But I think that sociopathy and religion are not necessarily mutually exclusive in this case. That has nothing to do with any particular religion, or religion in general, though.

I have no idea what to make of it, though my first inclination is that you’re right.

by brettgardner on Nov 7, 2009 3:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If sociopathy enters into it,

then there must be a hell of a lot of sociopaths that just happen to be Muslim trying to commit murder on a very large scale against the western world.

Formerly known as OKRangerFan

by B_Black on Nov 7, 2009 11:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

there is sociopathy

in every faith.

There are also many, many Muslim terrorists who aren’t sociopaths.

At this point Im not even sure if we can call Hasan a terrorist. He could very well be just a disturbed, depressed individual who conveniently merged jihadist ideology with his own feelings of rage and alienation – which of the two factors was the primary motive might never be clear, but it certainly seems off to lump him in with the coordinated, purposive suicide bombers in places like iraq and afghanistan.

by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Nov 8, 2009 4:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hold on, Trip

I didn’t rule out other factors, just said that religion is a very valid and salient point in the discussion.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Nov 8, 2009 7:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You said it was "key" and "likely the most important [factor]"

I think religion can play a role in sociopathy, and in fact, I believe that most funadmentalist/terrorist groups are groups of sociopaths that use religion as an excuse for acting out against those who are different.

by NoNameOnCard on Nov 9, 2009 12:22 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

to clarify...

I’m not saying that religion should be ignored, but I don’t believe it should be the focus.

I believe you can still get out of the military as a conscientious objector (did this only apply to the draft? does the volunteer nature of the modern military exclude this action?). His internal conflict surely would have qualified him, but it also sounds like he tried to get out…

Needless to say, I don’t think religion was his primary motivation.

by NoNameOnCard on Nov 9, 2009 12:27 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

His internal conflict surely would have qualified him

That’s actually not the case. Basically, to qualify you need to oppose war in general, not just a specific war or set of wars. You also need personal references, usually including a religious representative attesting to this. All of that will get you into an evaluation process that is still very difficult to ‘pass’. It would be especially tough for Hasan since he is already on record that is opposition to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is tied to the nature of those wars specifically.

For someone that joined voluntarily, has been serving for years, has obtained substantial educational benefits from the army, and fills a role that is in high demand, he would be very unlikely to succeed. Also, if youve been in the military for 10 + years and you claim CO status right before your first deployment, that just looks fishy.

by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Nov 9, 2009 3:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe I misread something...

I thought he had tried to get out before he was scheduled for deployment.

by NoNameOnCard on Nov 10, 2009 1:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Regardless

If you are the type of toy soldier pussy that wants out, all you have to do is disappear for more than a month, and they will process you out.

You will get an “other than honorable” discharge, which is a big deal, but you’ll be out.

If he was really that opposed to deploying to Afghanistan, he had options. Totally peaceful ones.

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Nov 11, 2009 5:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought...

…they were taking AWOL much more seriously now, even sending them to prison? His life as he saw it would be over that way…he’d be unable to practice. So the only way for him to get out and still be able to practice would be if they let him out, which he tried to get them to do.

I think the dude was just fucking nuts. I mean it’s not like he was going over there to kill his fellow muslims. He was an army shrink. Would have been safely in the rear. I don’t know why the hell he’d do this unless he were nuts. And yeah fundies do classify as “nuts” to me, though I’m still withholding judgment on that.

by Black Francis on Nov 11, 2009 6:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It depends on whether you are deployed or not

Deployed AWOL is an imprisonable offense. Unless they changed something in the UCMJ since 2006, it otherwise isn’t, generally speaking.

While the UCMJ is the UCMJ, I assume there must be some differences between the branches. But in the DON, you go U.A. (unauthorized absence, Sailors and Marines don’t use the term AWOL) for more than a month, they bounce you. Less than that, and they typically just bust you down and make your life miserable for a stretch.

And I agree, it sounds like the dude was more a nutbag coward than a fundamentalist zealot. Glad he lived. Living has to be worse than death when you pull this kind of despicable mayhem.

Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...

Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?

by Brian Thomas on Nov 11, 2009 9:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe so

I was mainly just addressing the narrow point of him being eligible for CO status, which I think he clearly wouldn’t have been.

The resolution he chose for whatever conflicts he had was stupid and soulless. But based on what we now know (such as the fact that he viciously assaulted a few dozen of his co-workers), I dont think we could have expected any kind of rationality from him in terms of handling those conflicts. He doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy that would think “Oh, I can just go AWOL for a month and not have to be deployed/suffer more harassment.”

by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Nov 13, 2009 5:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I like the way you put that
I think religion can play a role in sociopathy, and in fact, I believe that most funadmentalist/terrorist groups are groups of sociopaths that use religion as an excuse for acting out against those who are different.

Except I think those groups completely believe they are doing the right thing, and that’s what makes them sociopaths. Perhaps some of the leaders are consciously using religion to justify their means, but I think most convince themselves they are really acting out the will of God, and most of their followers believe they are.

Maybe what I’m saying is that the word “excuse” just isn’t strong enough. Regardless, it seems this guy should not have been there if there were any signs, and I’d bet they’re looking a bit more closely at any soldiers that have similar histories.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Nov 9, 2009 7:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The line gets blurred, certainly.

The fact is, though, that the major faiths are peaceful and view murder as wrong, which is probably understating it. My belief is that if fundamentalists were really that serious about their religions, then murder – let alone MASS MURDER – would be the furthest thing from their minds, barring other factors with sociopathy chief among them.

by NoNameOnCard on Nov 10, 2009 1:16 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Tragedy

First of all I don’t believe the weapons were issued to him. From what I have heard they were personal weapons. One was apparently a semi automatic. If he had been planning this which seems to be the case its not very hard to obtain a 30 round clip for a handgun.

And it is pretty easy to get a personal weapon on post especially a little handgun. Vehicles are very rarely searched.

As for why people didn’t react and take him out. Nobody in that processing center was armed. Soldiers on post do not walk around armed. Only MPs and civilian police are armed on post unless you are going to a firing range or for field exercises that require a weapon. I imagine that when the chaos started and he started shooting peoples natural instinct was to get down and hide. i heard one guy who said he was hit and when he peeked over a desk to see what was going on he was hit again. Another soldier said he was hit and when he moved again he was hit again.

The cop who shot this guy apparently arrived in about 3 minutes from the time the shooting started. Reloading a handgun is not difficult nor time consuming.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 6, 2009 12:03 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

30 round clips

See, that’s something I didn’t know existed. I’m into guns a little but I would never even look for something like that. Plus I shoot 1911’s and there certainly isn’t a 30 rd clip for something like that. But that would explain it if he had something like that. And maybe he was shooting a smaller caliber like a .22 or something. That could explain why there were so many injured who are doing well. Assuming if he were using 9mm I would think he would use hollow points and with those I think you’d have many more serious injuries and deaths.

Well I have to get back to work. This was a horrible thing. For the rest of the day I think I’m going to listen to CDs…I can only bear to hear so much about it.

by Black Francis on Nov 6, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

...
@Alyssa_Milano I am over this. RT @googlenews: Breaking News: 2 dead and 8 wounded at Orlando, FL Legion Place office building shooting

"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.

by Kinslerhomer on Nov 6, 2009 12:03 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I think

what you are missing is that you are assuming that all shots were by him. The first police officer responded within three minutes of the first shot. Right now the officials are not confirming or denying whether any of those that were shot were result of “friendly fire” from the responding police officers. I imagine as the investigation unfolds that we will have a clear picture of exactly how this all occurred.

by GregoryM on Nov 6, 2009 12:57 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

It sounds like there will be a grassy knoll angle on it.

Too early to tell.

"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris

by Chase Irwin on Nov 6, 2009 1:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Huh?

Do you mean you think there were more than one shooters?

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 6, 2009 2:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Something doesn't add up

 I have a hard time believing this can go down at a United States Military Base without something/one else involved

I think Luke French has a lot of potential. TORP potential.-Dstar

by sprite on Nov 6, 2009 2:12 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

From everything ive heard/read

it sounds like the guy didn’t want to be in the army anymore to begin with and damn sure didn’t want to go to Iraq or Afghanistan wherever he was going. I imagine he didn’t plan on surviving the attack whether it be police killing him or committing suicide. And for whatever reason he felt like killing fellow soldiers was what he had to do. Its a sad sad thing that happened and could have been alot owrse had it not been for that cop who got there in a hurry. But to me it sounds like a guy who just snapped

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 6, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

His cousin said

on the radio while ago that his family was shocked to hear about this. He supposedly wasn’t a violent man at all and only went into the Army to get his education. The cousin said that while in the Army he was the victim of a bunch of harassment, and he had been trying to get out, even by going so far as to offer to pay DoD for his education. Then I guess that didn’t work, he learned he was being deployed, and must have snapped.

So religion may have played a role in this but it’s not like the guy was an extremist or anything. According to his cousin.

I didn’t want to get into the race and religion thing but I guess this thread was going to go there anyway. So that’s what I heard about it.

by Black Francis on Nov 6, 2009 4:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It sounds to me like

he may have been just a mentally disturbed person who was nudged over the edge by religiously-driven ideology. It doesnt really seem like ideology was the foundation for him planning the attack, just maybe one of several factors that made it a little more cognitively acceptable for him to do it.

And harassment is certainly no justification for mass murder, but how embarrassing is it to once again hear about intolerance and a hostile atmosphere in the military.

by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Nov 6, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

unless there is obvious evidence, conspiracy always strikes me as a far-fetched explanation for any unanswered questions. For one, Im not sure how this being on an army base would more powerfully imply the participation of another actor. There are usually plenty of unresolved details early on in situations like this, but they can almost always be explained in time with sensible reasons rather than intricate conspiracies.

by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Nov 6, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

one of his classmates just said...

“he equated the war against terror to be the same as the war against Islam”

Good help doesn't come cheap.

- Gil LeBreton

by BigGuns on Nov 6, 2009 4:40 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

and that based on anti-American things he has said in the past...

that “he is not surprised” he did this.

Good help doesn't come cheap.

- Gil LeBreton

by BigGuns on Nov 6, 2009 4:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I wonder when he signed up?

I mean the ‘War on Terror’ began shortly after 9/11/01 when military operations in Afghanstan began. Eight years ago.

by Black Francis on Nov 6, 2009 4:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

good question..

so far all I’ve heard from several sources that were close to him that he was really against the war, wanted out, was torn about having to fight against fellow Muslims. He had made many shocking comments about Islam and that Muslims need to stand up and fight. There are blog postings defending suicide bombings under his name, they’ve just got to see if it’s the same guy, which may take a few days and that several sources said he yelled Allan is the greatest right before he started shooting people. This guy was given his med. education for free while getting paid at the same time, made six figures and then turns on the people who gave him all these great things, what a slimeball, I hope he lives and spends his miserable life in jail in a wheelchair.

Good help doesn't come cheap.

- Gil LeBreton

by BigGuns on Nov 6, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I hope he gets the firing squad

He should be tried in military court and a I don’t know if a death sentence is by firing squad or hanging still. The Army doesn’t fuck around with lethal injection. They make you pay for doing something really bad

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 6, 2009 5:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

DoD sources told CNN

and the AP that the UCMJ will be applied.

"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -

"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce

by Ed Coffin on Nov 6, 2009 6:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd have no problem with that..

but if it winds up he did this for Islam then he dies, becomes a martyr and gets what he ultimately wanted. I say don’t give him what he wants but yeh I’d have no problem with the firing squad but I’d kinda like for one representative for each of the 13 victims who died be given a rifle and let them do it.

Good help doesn't come cheap.

- Gil LeBreton

by BigGuns on Nov 6, 2009 6:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not a big death penalty guy to begin with

If I were going to prison, I’d honestly prefer death. To me, life without parole would be the worst thing imaginable. Thinking something like a supermax facility where they’re kept in a tiny cell for all but one hour a week.

by Black Francis on Nov 6, 2009 6:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Military death penalty

It’s lethal injection now, same as the federal government.

FWIW, the last execution of an active-duty soldier was John Bennett, an Army private, in 1961. The last federal execution, in 2003, was also for the murder of a soldier here in Texas.

"I cannot believe how fucking off base I was about Tiny E before this season. The Kid is great and is going to become a star."

- Wails

by RCCook on Nov 6, 2009 6:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Really?

Did not know that. Didn’t know they changed it. When did they change it?

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 6, 2009 7:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Looks like last year

It says on Wikipedia that one of the eight currently on military death row came up for an execution date last year (he got a stay) and so they decided then that the method would be lethal injection.

"I cannot believe how fucking off base I was about Tiny E before this season. The Kid is great and is going to become a star."

- Wails

by RCCook on Nov 7, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

it hadn’t come up in a while before that, right?

"I just want to comment on how it’s become like a common thing in the [MLB] for guys to fall in love with [the Rangers’s] sloppy seconds." (thanks cstorm)

by ab03 on Nov 7, 2009 6:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I was born in Fort Hood....

… it’s the whole reason I’m a Rangers fan! Such incredibly sad news. Thoughts and prayers go out to the friends, families and victims. Those men and women deserve so much better.
This is actually a good conversation to have, and one that I think we may get more answers to soon. Personally, I am less concerned with how he was able to get off so many rounds, and more concerned with how this wasn’t prevented in the first place. This isn’t about profiling Muslim soldiers, this is about seeing the warning signs of a man who had no business being in the position that he was.
God bless the victims of this tragic event that should have never happened!

Go Rangers! Go Cowboys! Go FSU!

by tdi1985 on Nov 6, 2009 6:16 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I don't agree with your assumptions

He had two handguns and it’s been released that one was semi auto. That means to me that only one was semi auto while the other was probably a revolver or else they would have stated two semi auto handguns. The revolver was a backup and the semi auto was the primary weapon. The question is how many magazines he had. A magazine can be changed in 3-4 seconds (depending on how available they are) which was probably why no unarmed person tried to take him down. Magazines aren’t that expensive. He could have had 5-10 magazines at 12 or so rounds a piece for all we know.

It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone. You count on it, rely on it to buffer the passage of time, to keep the memory of sunshine and high skies alive, and then just when the days are all twilight, when you need it most, it stops.

by WyoRanger on Nov 6, 2009 6:48 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Let's please not get into the Muslim religion?????

Not attacking you or your post, but we should go into this.

Look at the links below. Imagine if one of these people pictured were your father, mother, brother, sister, son, daughter or close friend? How would you feel about the Muslim religion?

We as a Christian nation, built and founded on Christian values and principles, are under attack by these zealots of the Muslim religion. There should be no tolerance of these people in our country. We have given them the same opportunities as we have extended to all nationalities that have come to our country throughout our history, without persecution. We educate them in our universities and give them the very knowledge that they use to attack us.

2,993 people were killed by believers of the Muslim religion on 9-11, 13 in Ft. Hood. How did these victims offend people of the Muslim religion? Would you go to Saudi Arabia and blow up a government building, school, or hospital because they don’t believe in the same god as you do? Of course not, but they will bomb a government building, school, or hospital here because we has a country don’t believe as they do.

When the United States, Great Britain, or any other Western power is at war with a country, we do all we can to avoid civilian casualties. These Muslims not only hide behind these civilians, but attack these very civilians in suicide bombings inside their own countries. They kill more of each other than they do of the supposed enemy that they are trying to bring down.

America has become too tolerant and politically correct to fight these problems even inside our own borders. A large number of our own citizens wonder why we are fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even the current President of this country seems not to have the backbone for this religious fight. We have to say enough is enough. We have to keep up the fight against these people inside and outside our borders, or one day you or I or someone close to you might be in an office building, a shopping mall, or a sporting event and a bomb explodes, or a gun goes off and a picture is later posted on the internet in remembrance.

http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/us/2009/11/06/fort-hood-massacre-victims?slide=14

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/memorial/lists/by-name/

Formerly known as OKRangerFan

by B_Black on Nov 7, 2009 11:17 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Yea dude

we are violent, evil people who like nothing but destruction, mayhem, and murder. Can you tell me who violently colonized and oppressed most of the known world between the 15th and 18th centuries? Can you tell me who made it their main goal to kill the ‘Muslim infidels’ and take back the holy land between the 10th and 12th centuries? Can you tell me who eradicated an entire race of natives on the North American continent in the 15th and 16th centuries? Just because people who claimed they were Christians did these does not mean all of them represented Christianity. Apply that same logic with a random bastard who blows himself up in the name of Islam. I know Christianity is a religion of peace because I know its true core and fundamentals. I know that Islam is a religion of peace for the same reason. Zealots do not represent a religion, its core beliefs and teachings do.

My thoughts and prayers go out the families of the soldiers, this incident really slammed me because again a so called “Muslim” uses his religion as a scapegoat for what he really is, a lonely, introverted middle aged man who has some deep personal problems

And mankind is naught but a single nation - Qu'ran 2:213

by devsr on Nov 8, 2009 3:57 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I won't respond to all of your post.

Most of it is disgusting bigotry that doesn’t merit any response.

But I do want to engage you about the two wars. Yes, many Americans do wonder why we are fighting them. Or, more precisely, they wonder what are our objectives and what are the means by which we can achieve them. That is an absolutely valid question, not one whose mere consideration indicates a lack of backbone. I dont have an answer. I have some feelings about it, but I have total humility in my capacity to be wrong.

You are concerned about this relative in a hypothetical domestic terrorist attack, but what about the US marine who just happens to be in a cornfield in Afghanistan when a gun goes off. Or an Army tank that happens to be in Iraq when an IED goes off. Those losses are just as painful as the ones you supposed, and they have been and will continue to happen. They also carry the added effect of fermenting violent hatred towards us and our government.

Defending our country is fine, I’m all for it. I have serious doubts about whether the way we have gone about it the last 8 years has been productive. But at the very least Im thankful we havent embroiled ourself in the sort of interminable religious war you seem so eager to start.

by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Nov 8, 2009 5:05 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Some of us

just wonder why the hell we fought one of the wars, but not the other.

Its a damn shame we had the bulk of our military tied up in a pointless sideshow and we didn’t engage the folks that attacked us in any more than a holding action until recently. Its also a damn shame they don’t ratchet up the troop count in Afghanistan to a level that can be productive because we have wasted so much time, money and blood on the pointless sideshow in Iraq.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Nov 9, 2009 3:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The U.S. is not a Christian nation

it was founded by a large group of people who included Deists, freethinkers and Christians, who espoused freedom of religion.

It’s funny (in a sad way) to me that you decry the violence of Islam and then complain that Obama doesn’t have the stomach to fight. Is violence both the problem and the solution? Yes, I’m sure the Muslims will understand that they shouldn’t be violent after we blow them to smithereens. After we beat them up they’ll smile and say “oh, yes, sorry, we shouldn’t be violent.”

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Nov 8, 2009 7:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, it worked with the Japanese

No reason why a few nukes shouldn’t take care of this little problem again, right?

In fact, I’ve got it all mapped out. See, it starts with breeding a new line of superintelligent cockroaches. We’ll even teach them Christianity, just to stick it in the face of those evil, beady-eyed Muslims.

Once that’s done, we’ll nuke the crap out of the middle east. And when the rest of the world gets pissed off, we’ll nuke the crap out of them, too. If we calculate things correctly, we should be able to make sure the resulting radioactive clouds obliderate all intelligent life on earth, leaving our superintelligent Christian cockroaches to preside over the ruins.

Jesus wins, and we won’t have to worry about gas prices anymore. Problem solved!

"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS

"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire

by lonestarJon on Nov 8, 2009 8:25 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

+1 MM

"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.

by Kinslerhomer on Nov 8, 2009 12:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wrecked.

"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris

by Chase Irwin on Nov 9, 2009 12:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What, nobody can take a joke?

"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS

"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire

by lonestarJon on Nov 9, 2009 6:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Great thread

to make a joke in.

"Stats are like a woman in a fine little bikini. You can see a lot, but you can't see everything." -Dirk A. Tron

by coolaid on Nov 9, 2009 7:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

pretty stupid joke

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Nov 9, 2009 8:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ummmm ohhhhhhhh k Jonny

Good help doesn't come cheap.

- Gil LeBreton

by BigGuns on Nov 9, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I have to agree with you Joe Liebermann...

who just said that if indeed all these stories are true about his radical extremist views over the course of many years and instances then he indeed is a islamic extremist terrorist. The military is going to have a hard time explaining how they allowed him to stay aboard after all the anti-american pro islamic things he’s not only openly ranted about but also posted on blogs regarding the need for Muslims to stand up against the infidel and even going so far as to do a powerpoint presentation in his environmental health class justifying suicide bombings. That freaked out a lot of the people in the class because it has absolutely nothing to do with environmental health. Don’t forget the tiny detail yelling Allah is great as he’s shooting people. I mean I don’t want to insult the guy by calling him a terrorist since he’s such a sweetheart but in a few days time after they sort through whats on his computer I would put a good amount of money that this was a contrived act. He wouldn’t allow anybody in his apt. ever and would often use his next door neighbors computer which is kinda odd for someone who made that much money.

Good help doesn't come cheap.

- Gil LeBreton

by BigGuns on Nov 8, 2009 12:55 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I'm sure the reason he wasn't dishonerably discharged

is because of the stress the military has been under for years trying to get enough manpower to prosecute 2 wars simultaneously. Making the manpower targets isn’t so easy in a wartime army.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Nov 9, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeh that makes sense but it's still fucked up...

I’d of liked to have seen the expression on his face when he came out of his drugged up stupor surrounded by F.B.I. agents…

Allah? Is there an Allah here? ohhhhhhh shit…

Good help doesn't come cheap.

- Gil LeBreton

by BigGuns on Nov 9, 2009 10:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I won't dispute that, but..

wouldn’t you agree that there is probably a more important reason? Can you imagine the hue and cry had they kicked him out “over his religious views”?

The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano

by bking on Nov 11, 2009 9:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

he was trying to get out

So I doubt there’d have been much of an outcry.

by Black Francis on Nov 11, 2009 10:15 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I imagine the support

would be much, much, much bigger than the outcry had they announced all the same information they are saying now.

I think the military was much more concerned about manpower concerns if he got out of the military early by posting pro Islamic fundie blogs. You’d probably see a wave of stop lossed troops throwing blogs up left and right to get out of the military.

"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland

by DJCahill on Nov 11, 2009 12:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm wondering

…if it was him who posted that stuff (have they proven it yet?), if he didn’t do it as part of his effort to get out. Or maybe the guy is a fundie through and through, I don’t know.

If he is, his plan was surely to get himself killed after his rampage, and it brings me much joy to know that he will be alive. This is the type of criminal in which I become somewhat Dick Cheney-like, believe it or not. I mean there’s no doubt he did it otherwise I’d agree he has a right to trial. As it is I’d like it if they’d do it all in secret and never make another announcement about him. No more attention. No martyrdom.

I don’t want to know if they sentence him to death, a life term in solitary confinement, or send him off to antarctica in his underwear. Whatever.

by Black Francis on Nov 11, 2009 3:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs


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