Goldstein on Borbon
by Excel Hearts Choi on Nov 8, 2009 9:12 AM CST
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That was Kevin Goldstein on Julio Borbon and his debut last season. He was a guest on Minors and Majors on MLB Home Plate this morning. A caller asked why, after his successful call up, there is talk about Borbon not being ready for CF next season. Firstly, Goldstein said that signing Byrd makes no sense with Borbon on the roster. He wonders what Borbon does besides hit for average, because he won't draw a lot of walks or hit for power. Moreover, Borbon has to hit .300 to be useful. Grant Paulsen (the host) said that the Rangers have enough power that they can live with Borbon in their lineup. The caller mentioned that Borbon has a bad arm, and Goldstein added that it was "a very bad arm", though he says Borbon has great range. Much like Adam, Goldstein says now is the time to commit to Borbon if they plan on using him in CF.
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What does Borbon do?
I think hitting .300/.340/.430 with 50 SBs isn’t nothing. Borbon has also shown that he is willing to work on his patience and has improved dramatically from where he was when he was drafted. The arm and lack of HR power works against him, but both of those things are less important at CF. Not many teams have power hitting CFs and his arm can also be hidden in CF with his range making up for a lot.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
"his arm can be hidden in CF"
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. He has a very weak arm and it is a liability, I’ve been saying that since he was in A-ball.
Favorite bumper sticker of all time, seen on a VW bus:
"Gas, Grass, or Ass. Nobody rides for free"
Bad Arm
I’ve been hearing that a lot, and it’s not that I don’t believe you or anybody whose been saying this, but I had no idea that it was this bad (we tend to hyperbolize around here).
by Excel Hearts Choi on Nov 8, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
What it means
is that Borbon’s not likely to have as many deep throws playing in CF as he would in the corners. And overall, his strengths outweighs his weaknesses and make him a good CF.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Respectfully disagree
Whether or not the throws are short or long, his accuracy has been really bad. What that means is that runners are going to take extra bases on him consistently. Even if he cuts a ball off in the alley, that is going to be a double… not any different than if the ball had gotten by Byrd to the wall.
One overlooked and under reported factor in the Rangers defense improvement has been the outfield throws… they’ve been good enough to hold runners from taking extra bases, and that has definitely benefited the pitchers. Cruz, Hamilton, and Boggs are great at getting the ball in quickly to the right place. Byrd and Murphy are pretty good too.
I don’t think he is a good CF at this point. I hope he can improve, but right now his arm makes him a below average CF. I really think his arm negates his range, and makes him roughly comparable to Byrd defensively.
And I know that is an unpopular opinion.
"we’re a bunch of knee-jerking yahoos who like new and shiny things." -- FirebatM3 July 10, 2009
by Oddibee on Nov 8, 2009 6:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
His accuracy can improve
Its never been that glaring of a problem if it was ever a major issue for him.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
what are his strengths as a CF?
He’s fast, and that’s very helpful, but we’ve heard numerous reports from inside and outside the organization that he needs lots of work on his reads and his jumps. So what he has is a lot of speed that isn’t necessarily converted into range, and a poor throwing arm. How does that equal a good CF?
Favorite bumper sticker of all time, seen on a VW bus:
"Gas, Grass, or Ass. Nobody rides for free"
All those things are areas of improvement
that they believe Borbon will work on. I don’t know if he’s a plus defensive CF right now, but I think by this time next year, we aren’t going to be talking about any of these problems outside of a mediocre arm.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
How many OF prospects
at this stage in their careers don’t need to work on reads and jumps? He can make progress in this area, but I think some of that perception out there comes from Washington, who never met a non-Byrd outfielder he didn’t distrust.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Let me add
that I’m skeptical he’s ever going to be a great CF, but he’s shown the ability to learn and adjust over the past couple of years so I’m optimistic he can be better than the overrated Byrd.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
SBs
This is what I don’t get when people say Borbon won’t hit for enough power. He’s not supposed to hit for power. His swing is the type that will occasionally hit a HR most likely right down the line but hes not a HR hitter. However if he can steal 40+ bases a year consistently it makes a guy with a .400 SLG in 600 ABs into a SLG of .467 essentially
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
x
However if he can steal 40+ bases a year consistently it makes a guy with a .400 SLG in 600 ABs into a SLG of .467 essentially
No, it doesn’t.
by Adam J. Morris on Nov 8, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions
So
Bottom of the lineup guys do get on base from time to time too.
LoneStarBall....You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
by LSBUser on Nov 9, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
All hitting at the top of the lineup really means is that you get more PA's than anyone else.
That’s my biggest concern about Borbon, whether he’ll OBP enough to justify getting the most PA’s per game.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
"...he wasn’t a good hitter, just a good middle of the order bat that hit a lot of homers." - NYTXFAN on Mark McGwire
by LSJ on Nov 9, 2009 6:22 PM CST up reply actions
A 400 SLG in 600 ABs means 240 total bases
Add 40 bases to that and the SLG goes up to 467. Thats why I added the essentially onto the end.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
obviously its not that easy to formulate
but a .400 slug from borbon wouldn’t be the same as getting a .400 slug from salty etc.
On the flip sde
If he gets caught stealing 10 times does that lower his OBP too?
LoneStarBall....You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
by LSBUser on Nov 8, 2009 4:49 PM CST up reply actions
But if he has fun doing it...
it doesn’t matter because the Rangers are a losing team and they should at least have fun and enjoy when they steal a base even when attempting to steal a base is the wrong move.
by ghostofErikThompson on Nov 9, 2009 2:29 AM CST up reply actions
Bigsteve (TM) Math
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
by DJCahill on Nov 9, 2009 4:53 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He's a sub 800 OPS
CF whose defense is average to below.
Yeah he is fast, but his jumps on balls are below average and his arm is Catalanotto level.
Goldstein is dead on about Borbon, one of the most locally overrated prospects in a while. Maybe if they were running track instead of playing baseball, he’d be a better prospect.
"I don't condone steroids or any other type of growth hormones or anything else, but I could care less, and, for the most part, I don't think the fans give a (bleep). The people that care about it are the people that probably don't like baseball," - Jim Leyland
But he makes up for that weakass arm w/ a tremendous glove-to-hand transfer time
Or so I’ve heard.
Neftali Feliz says sit your 5 dollar ass down before he makes change...
Hi, Keith. Is this the year Edinson Volquez finally wins RoY?
by Brian Thomas on Nov 11, 2009 7:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If you could combine Borbon's glove-to-hand transfer times with Nelson Cruz's arm
You’d have one of the best after-the-catch defender’s of all time
Borbon is a good baseball player
he can hit. he has lots of speed. and since Borbon started less games in CF last year than I could count on 1 hand, he is now labeled as bad defensively. All the scouts were wrong in the minors, and now they are reversing on the massive sample size we witnessed in the Major leagues. Well, we better write him off then. Oh well, he sucks.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
Some very good pts above
He has weaknesses and he has strengths. With all this I still think the CF job should be his to lose during spring training. How else would the questions be answered?
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
we saw this week
that Borbon’s skill set can be pretty valuable in a trade.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
You are right
I hope that JD takes advantage of that.
Favorite bumper sticker of all time, seen on a VW bus:
"Gas, Grass, or Ass. Nobody rides for free"
No fucking way
Can’t take the risk that he’d kill Neftali or Elvis :)
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
High beta would be an understatement
He could one day be inducted into the Hall of Fame or could end up with a 99-year prison sentence. Neither would be surprising.
"Feldman and Feliz and and pray for…infectious disease?"--TheJeezus on Sep 9, 2009 1:01 PM PDT
I don't see weakening the bullpen to bolster the COF as worth the risk
I think CJ could be a huge piece of an Adam Dunn trade though, and that might be a good deal for us.
Favorite bumper sticker of all time, seen on a VW bus:
"Gas, Grass, or Ass. Nobody rides for free"
-22.2 UZR/150
over 73 games in CF and he’s listed at 250 pounds (and growing). I think he’d be quite a bit worse than Byrd in CF.
Favorite bumper sticker of all time, seen on a VW bus:
"Gas, Grass, or Ass. Nobody rides for free"
fangraphs has it
Favorite bumper sticker of all time, seen on a VW bus:
"Gas, Grass, or Ass. Nobody rides for free"
lol @ fangraphs
Thought this quote was pretty hilarious.
Coming through the Rays system Dukes had a few major claims to fame: 1) he had the power of a bull, 2) the discipline of a monk, 3) the build of Ray Lewis, 4) Matt Kemp’s abilities mixed with Shawn Kemp’s sperm.
Favorite bumper sticker of all time, seen on a VW bus:
"Gas, Grass, or Ass. Nobody rides for free"
And now it's discipline of Ray Lewis and build like a monk, right?
"Feldman and Feliz and and pray for…infectious disease?"--TheJeezus on Sep 9, 2009 1:01 PM PDT
I would absolutely hate that deal
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
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