Goldstein on Borbon

by Excel Hearts Choi on Nov 8, 2009 9:12 AM CST Comment 46 comments

He was a bit of a mirage.

That was Kevin Goldstein on Julio Borbon and his debut last season. He was a guest on Minors and Majors on MLB Home Plate this morning. A caller asked why, after his successful call up, there is talk about Borbon not being ready for CF next season. Firstly, Goldstein said that signing Byrd makes no sense with Borbon on the roster. He wonders what Borbon does besides hit for average, because he won't draw a lot of walks or hit for power. Moreover, Borbon has to hit .300 to be useful. Grant Paulsen (the host) said that the Rangers have enough power that they can live with Borbon in their lineup. The caller mentioned that Borbon has a bad arm, and Goldstein added that it was "a very bad arm", though he says Borbon has great range. Much like Adam, Goldstein says now is the time to commit to Borbon if they plan on using him in CF.

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What does Borbon do?

I think hitting .300/.340/.430 with 50 SBs isn’t nothing. Borbon has also shown that he is willing to work on his patience and has improved dramatically from where he was when he was drafted. The arm and lack of HR power works against him, but both of those things are less important at CF. Not many teams have power hitting CFs and his arm can also be hidden in CF with his range making up for a lot.

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by Gdawg on Nov 8, 2009 1:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

"his arm can be hidden in CF"

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. He has a very weak arm and it is a liability, I’ve been saying that since he was in A-ball.

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by tricer on Nov 8, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bad Arm

I’ve been hearing that a lot, and it’s not that I don’t believe you or anybody whose been saying this, but I had no idea that it was this bad (we tend to hyperbolize around here).

by Excel Hearts Choi on Nov 8, 2009 3:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What it means

is that Borbon’s not likely to have as many deep throws playing in CF as he would in the corners. And overall, his strengths outweighs his weaknesses and make him a good CF.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Nov 8, 2009 6:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Respectfully disagree

Whether or not the throws are short or long, his accuracy has been really bad. What that means is that runners are going to take extra bases on him consistently. Even if he cuts a ball off in the alley, that is going to be a double… not any different than if the ball had gotten by Byrd to the wall.

One overlooked and under reported factor in the Rangers defense improvement has been the outfield throws… they’ve been good enough to hold runners from taking extra bases, and that has definitely benefited the pitchers. Cruz, Hamilton, and Boggs are great at getting the ball in quickly to the right place. Byrd and Murphy are pretty good too.

I don’t think he is a good CF at this point. I hope he can improve, but right now his arm makes him a below average CF. I really think his arm negates his range, and makes him roughly comparable to Byrd defensively.

And I know that is an unpopular opinion.

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by Oddibee on Nov 8, 2009 6:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

His accuracy can improve

Its never been that glaring of a problem if it was ever a major issue for him.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Nov 8, 2009 6:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

what are his strengths as a CF?

He’s fast, and that’s very helpful, but we’ve heard numerous reports from inside and outside the organization that he needs lots of work on his reads and his jumps. So what he has is a lot of speed that isn’t necessarily converted into range, and a poor throwing arm. How does that equal a good CF?

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by tricer on Nov 8, 2009 6:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

All those things are areas of improvement

that they believe Borbon will work on. I don’t know if he’s a plus defensive CF right now, but I think by this time next year, we aren’t going to be talking about any of these problems outside of a mediocre arm.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Nov 8, 2009 6:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How many OF prospects

at this stage in their careers don’t need to work on reads and jumps? He can make progress in this area, but I think some of that perception out there comes from Washington, who never met a non-Byrd outfielder he didn’t distrust.

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by t ball on Nov 9, 2009 7:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Let me add

that I’m skeptical he’s ever going to be a great CF, but he’s shown the ability to learn and adjust over the past couple of years so I’m optimistic he can be better than the overrated Byrd.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Nov 9, 2009 7:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

SBs

This is what I don’t get when people say Borbon won’t hit for enough power. He’s not supposed to hit for power. His swing is the type that will occasionally hit a HR most likely right down the line but hes not a HR hitter. However if he can steal 40+ bases a year consistently it makes a guy with a .400 SLG in 600 ABs into a SLG of .467 essentially

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by bigsteve on Nov 8, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

x

However if he can steal 40+ bases a year consistently it makes a guy with a .400 SLG in 600 ABs into a SLG of .467 essentially

No, it doesn’t.

by Adam J. Morris on Nov 8, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just go along with it.

by LiamP on Nov 8, 2009 4:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I, for one, would like to hear how stolen bases advance other baserunners.

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by philkid3 on Nov 8, 2009 4:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well

He would be hitting at the top of the lineup.

by chrisR on Nov 9, 2009 12:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So

Bottom of the lineup guys do get on base from time to time too.

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by DaheelzCM on Nov 9, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

All hitting at the top of the lineup really means is that you get more PA's than anyone else.

That’s my biggest concern about Borbon, whether he’ll OBP enough to justify getting the most PA’s per game.

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by lonestarJon on Nov 9, 2009 6:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

A 400 SLG in 600 ABs means 240 total bases

Add 40 bases to that and the SLG goes up to 467. Thats why I added the essentially onto the end.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Nov 8, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

obviously its not that easy to formulate

but a .400 slug from borbon wouldn’t be the same as getting a .400 slug from salty etc.

by groundingout on Nov 8, 2009 6:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

On the flip sde

If he gets caught stealing 10 times does that lower his OBP too?

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by DaheelzCM on Nov 8, 2009 4:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

At least as valid a point.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Nov 8, 2009 6:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But if he has fun doing it...

it doesn’t matter because the Rangers are a losing team and they should at least have fun and enjoy when they steal a base even when attempting to steal a base is the wrong move.

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by ghostofErikThompson on Nov 9, 2009 2:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bigsteve (TM) Math

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by DJCahill on Nov 9, 2009 4:53 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

He's a sub 800 OPS

CF whose defense is average to below.

Yeah he is fast, but his jumps on balls are below average and his arm is Catalanotto level.

Goldstein is dead on about Borbon, one of the most locally overrated prospects in a while. Maybe if they were running track instead of playing baseball, he’d be a better prospect.

by DJCahill on Nov 9, 2009 4:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

But he makes up for that weakass arm w/ a tremendous glove-to-hand transfer time

Or so I’ve heard.

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by Brian Thomas on Nov 11, 2009 7:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

If you could combine Borbon's glove-to-hand transfer times with Nelson Cruz's arm

You’d have one of the best after-the-catch defender’s of all time

by tyd3311 on Nov 12, 2009 7:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Borbon is a good baseball player

he can hit. he has lots of speed. and since Borbon started less games in CF last year than I could count on 1 hand, he is now labeled as bad defensively. All the scouts were wrong in the minors, and now they are reversing on the massive sample size we witnessed in the Major leagues. Well, we better write him off then. Oh well, he sucks.

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by NothinG on Nov 12, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wait, when did he become an average to below average defender?

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by philkid3 on Nov 14, 2009 1:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Some very good pts above

He has weaknesses and he has strengths. With all this I still think the CF job should be his to lose during spring training. How else would the questions be answered?

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by Michael Cave on Nov 8, 2009 6:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

we saw this week

that Borbon’s skill set can be pretty valuable in a trade.

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by clark on Nov 8, 2009 11:51 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

You are right

I hope that JD takes advantage of that.

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by tricer on Nov 9, 2009 7:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You think Elijah Dukes is available?

Maybe a deal involving CJ Wilson+?

by tyd3311 on Nov 9, 2009 7:56 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

No fucking way

Can’t take the risk that he’d kill Neftali or Elvis :)

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by Kinslerhomer on Nov 9, 2009 8:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

High beta player

by tyd3311 on Nov 9, 2009 8:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

High beta would be an understatement

He could one day be inducted into the Hall of Fame or could end up with a 99-year prison sentence. Neither would be surprising.

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by WestTxAg06 on Nov 9, 2009 8:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see weakening the bullpen to bolster the COF as worth the risk

I think CJ could be a huge piece of an Adam Dunn trade though, and that might be a good deal for us.

Favorite bumper sticker of all time, seen on a VW bus:
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by tricer on Nov 9, 2009 9:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

by tricer on Nov 9, 2009 9:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Coming through the Rays system Dukes had a few major claims to fame: 1) he had the power of a bull, 2) the discipline of a monk, 3) the build of Ray Lewis, 4) Matt Kemp’s abilities mixed with Shawn Kemp’s sperm.

Favorite bumper sticker of all time, seen on a VW bus:
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by tricer on Nov 9, 2009 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs