Saturday morning Rangers things

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 26, 2009 10:36 AM CST

Quite a performance by Vince Young last night.

No Rangers news out there today. There is this item from Buster Olney earlier, though, that I missed:

The Astros are essentially for sale because of big-money deals that have gone badly; the same could be said for the Rangers.

One of the things that has been rather opaque throughout this process is why Tom Hicks is having to sell the Rangers. I wrote earlier this month about the Rangers' debt level escalating dramatically at the time Tom Hicks bought the Liverpool soccer club, suggesting that Hicks did what amounted to a home equity loan with Hicks Sports Group to buy into Liverpool, but for the most part, we haven't gotten any clear answers as to why HSG is defaulting on loans, why the Rangers can't make payroll, etc. It is just that Hicks has no money, which is misleading anyway, since Hicks doesn't own the Rangers, HSG does.

In any case, this is the first time I've seen it suggested that Hicks is being forced to sell the Rangers because the Alex Rodriguez, Chan Ho Park, and Juan Gonzalez deals didn't work out. Given that the Rangers have spent the last 6 years with a payroll south of $70 million, I have a hard time believing that Olney's comment above is that accurate. I'm not sure if Olney just is wrong, is oversimplifying, or if he's right and no one else has reported this.

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Why hasnt Mark Cuban or Jerry Jones gotten involved?

Im just curious seeing how both are huge figures in the Dallas area.

The bloggerformelyknownasBigBaddBubbaJ

by NYTXFAN on Dec 26, 2009 10:38 AM CST reply actions

Jerry's a one woman man.

Unless it’s a Cowboy subsidiary like the Desperados.

"Ho visto il tuo agire, non solo rendono per me. Basta un sacco di fluff".

by scoop16 on Dec 26, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions

Jerry Jones doesn't have the money

Probably isn’t interested, either.

Mark Cuban isn’t interested, and the owners wouldn’t approve him.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 26, 2009 10:42 AM CST up reply actions

I don't know one way or the other

But why do you say that Jerry doesn’t have the money?

by brettgardner on Dec 26, 2009 10:47 AM CST up reply actions

I dont know if he does or not

but Jerry Jones would never risk losing the cowboys over another deal

by CRUSHDAVIS on Dec 26, 2009 10:49 AM CST up reply actions

Cause he just spent 1.2 billion on a stadium

He could get money but as far as money in the bank he probably doesn’t have as much as people think

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Dec 26, 2009 10:49 AM CST up reply actions

Who gives a flying fuck about money in the bank?

by brettgardner on Dec 26, 2009 10:50 AM CST up reply actions

Well

That makes a difference in terms of your ability to buy a team.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 26, 2009 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

Jerry, Cuban, Hicks

This has probably changed given Hicks’ recent financial woes, but I remember seeing a Forbes “Richest Men” list three or four years back, and Jones had the least personal wealth of the three.

"To have the judgment and wisdom and personal touch of Nolan Ryan, and the tremendous group that JD has assembled, I think the Rangers on the baseball side are the envy of every franchise in baseball in terms of talent."

-- Chuck Greenberg

by RCCook on Dec 26, 2009 10:54 AM CST up reply actions

Jones' "wealth" is mainly in the value of the Cowboys

He can borrow against that value, like he did with the stadium and like Hicks did with the Rangers to buy Liverpool, and he probably does have a good chunk of change in the bank but I don’t know if he would be willing to write a check to invest in the Rangers. And hes too good a businessman to borrow against the Cowboys to invest in the Rangers especially after watching what Hicks has been through having to sell the Rangers to keep Liverpool

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Dec 26, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions

I'd wager that...

…the NFL has limits as to the ability of an owner to use a franchise as security for a loan.

That’s something that baffled me about the Rangers’ situation…if you own a McDonald’s franchise, I don’t think you’re allowed to put it up as collateral so you can go buy a Wendy’s.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 26, 2009 11:04 AM CST up reply actions

That would just be stupid

a Chick-Fil-A on the other hand…

by MikeEl on Dec 26, 2009 11:06 AM CST up reply actions

Chick-Fil-A franchisees are required to be very involved

and aren’t allowed to have other business ventures at the time

by Mike E on Dec 26, 2009 11:44 AM CST up reply actions

you know it get's very confusing when you reply to me

by MikeEl on Dec 26, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions

Why are you replying to yourself

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Dec 26, 2009 12:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

I don't think that's happened.

yet…

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Dec 26, 2009 1:04 PM CST up reply actions

I wonder if MLB has changed their policy in light of all this

Has an owner tried to do what Hicks did before Hicks?

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Dec 26, 2009 11:06 AM CST up reply actions

I'm not sure about that.

by brettgardner on Dec 26, 2009 11:30 AM CST up reply actions

Well

I take that back. I’m sure it’s part of the deal.

by brettgardner on Dec 26, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions

Totally different situations really

Aside from them both being franchises

by Mike E on Dec 26, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions

Well

When you have zero maybe, but I guess I don’t understand why his bank account at Wells Fargo is the determinative factor here.

by brettgardner on Dec 26, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions

I am assuming that...

…he’s using “money in the bank” as a synonym for liquid investable assets.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 26, 2009 11:00 AM CST up reply actions

yes

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Dec 26, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions

Oh

I didn’t think so, but if so, then OK.

by brettgardner on Dec 26, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions

He's probably pretty leveraged himself from building that stadium

It’ll be awhile before he’s well enough in the black that he could leverage himself some more to buy another team (if he wanted).

Oversimplified, but imagine if the banks foreclosed on JerryDome because he couldn’t make the payments on the Rangers…

by MikeEl on Dec 26, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions

technically jones didnt pay for all 1.2 billion of the staduim, taxes helped half of it i think.

Nobody is perfect, i am nobody, therefore, i am perfect

by 34express on Dec 26, 2009 11:27 AM CST via mobile up reply actions

Are you referring to the City of Arlingtons portion?

That was capped at 350 million

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Dec 26, 2009 11:31 AM CST up reply actions

I'm sure he has other investors

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Dec 26, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions

in fact, what do you call a $50,000.00 charge

just for the RIGHT to buy season tickets, not even the tickets themselves?

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Dec 26, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions

I call that a genius business practice when you get it to work

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Dec 26, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions

I don't think so

I think its just the City of Arlington and the Cowboys franchise that paid for the stadium. And since Jones is the sole owner of the Cowboys it would be him and the City of Arlington. At least thats what ive always understood it to be

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Dec 26, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions

Tarrant county chipped in 75M I believe

Plus the arlinton bit. The road improvements came out of state approved funds and Jerry has a couple loans for around 800M with BOA

I can't help it. I’m an asshole.
-brettgardner on Jul 7, 2009 10:55 PM EDT

by Jayslick on Dec 26, 2009 1:39 PM CST via mobile up reply actions

no he didn't

"Clearly, I've been wrong. VY is awesome." - AJM

by Longhorn on Dec 26, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions

you're right

He only spent ~850 million

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Dec 26, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions

Do u mean as investors or actual buyers

by CRUSHDAVIS on Dec 26, 2009 10:46 AM CST up reply actions

Big money deals should lead to more wins generally

Because guys who get big money deals are supposed to be really good players who can make a difference on the team. When you don’t improve on the field it leads to a drop in attendance and thus a drop in revenue. So using a Jenga analogy, the Liverpool acqusition was taking the block that causes the tower to fall it was the CHP, ARod, Juando, etc deals that took other blocks out which weakened the business as evidenced by the years of “operating income” so far in the red before the last few years when our payroll dropped.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Dec 26, 2009 10:48 AM CST reply actions 1 recs

I'm speechless.

by brettgardner on Dec 26, 2009 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

my grandmother used to tell me

It’s better to remain silent with the possibility of appearing stupid, as opposed to opening your mouth and removing all doubt.

What a drag it is being broke.

by tricer on Dec 26, 2009 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs

You obviously should have listened to your grandmother a little more then

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Dec 26, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions

probably so

What a drag it is being broke.

by tricer on Dec 26, 2009 12:40 PM CST up reply actions

I learned that quote from Lisa Simpson.

It's baseball. You don't always get what you want, and you don't always want what you get. --Ed Coffin

by txranger7 on Dec 26, 2009 1:39 PM CST up reply actions

Odds that Crane tries to by the Astros again

after Greenberg’s deal with the Rangers gets finalized?

by MikeEl on Dec 26, 2009 11:04 AM CST reply actions

Dear Mr. Olney

As has been stated many times at LSB,

Hicks problem is - the change in the investment and economic environment. The move away from leverage buy-outs and overall leverage deals. Remember when people were concerned about Bank runs at Wells, B of A, etc? And troubled Money Market accounts?

Imagine the concern for people owning Tom Hicks debt paper?

The A-Rod deal? Please!

And the truth is, the are no steal at $500 million.

by 3Bagger on Dec 26, 2009 11:17 AM CST reply actions

I'm speechless.

"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris

by inactive lsb user on Dec 26, 2009 12:55 PM CST up reply actions

Hicks doesn't own the Rangers?

It is just that Hicks has no money, which is misleading anyway, since Hicks doesn’t own the Rangers, HSG does.

What percentage of HSG does Hicks own?

by Mark from OC on Dec 26, 2009 11:18 AM CST reply actions

33.33333333

by Mike E on Dec 26, 2009 11:52 AM CST up reply actions

Hicks has money

but he isn’t going to use his personal money to now help fund the Rangers. As do many who acquire large amounts of cash, he has sequestered his money into trusts and other separate entities in order to spread and protect his assets from any specific failing business units. Commingling among his various companies and his personal wealth is a business no-no.

by Clueless on Dec 26, 2009 5:41 PM CST up reply actions

Uh

I’m not sure what you do for a living, but I assume it isn’t anything related to finances.

Wealthy people don’t put money into trusts and separate entities to spread and protect assets from any specific failing business units. The business units, as you put it, are generally held within a limited partnership, an LLC, or a corporation. In any of the three, you aren’t going to have any personal liability if the business fails unless you personally guarantee a loan or other extension of credit.

Putting individual wealth into the company isn’t necessary a “business no-no” — just because you inject cash into a failing business entity doesn’t mean that the creditors of that entity can come against your personally. As long as the corporate forms are observed to the extent that you can survive an alter ego claim — which isn’t that hard to do — then the individual is protected.

Trusts are generally set up for estate planning purposes — they are a mechanism for an individual to provide for others (usually descendents or charities) while minimizing estate taxes and allowing one to maintain a certain level of control over how the money is invested and/or distributed.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 26, 2009 5:54 PM CST up reply actions

Uh...yes, they do.

“Wealthy people don’t put money into trusts and separate entities to spread and protect assets from any specific failing business units.”
Again…uh, yes, they do.

By “business units”, I was referring to corporations, LLC, limited partnerships, AND TRUSTS…all of which are used to own separate businesses in order to isolate their other assets from creditors…and you know that. I was trying not to hold a entry-level seminar, which I apparently left up to you.

“In any of the three, you aren’t going to have any personal liability if the business fails unless you personally guarantee a loan or other extension of credit.”
Uh, that is kind of my point, but again, I was trying to not come off as a know-it-all.

And if you read closely, the term “commingling” has a specific meaning. I understand that injecting/putting individual wealth into a company is simply capitalizing or funding, and I am certainly aware of the ease of avoiding an alter ego claim, especially in Texas.
I was trying to explain how HSG is separate from Tom Hicks…in basic terms.

P.S. Of course, trusts are generally used for estate planning purposes, but if you think that Hicks hasn’t spread his acquired wealth into multiple family trusts, the purpose of which is not just for estate planning, but also for segregation purposes (which goes to my point that Hicks and his family are not personally broke), then you are wrong.

Not sure why you felt it necessary to attack my comment , nor why you felt it necessary to explain basic business concepts, but “nice job!”

by Clueless on Dec 26, 2009 6:34 PM CST up reply actions

Good lord

I loved this post.

by brettgardner on Dec 26, 2009 7:47 PM CST up reply actions

You basically regurgitated what I said

But in your initial post, you seemed to suggest that putting personal funds into a business venture that was losing money could expose him to personal liability, which is not true.

And given that your entire contribution to this blog has been to behave in a trollish fashion, I’m not sure why you would be surprised when you are treated like a troll.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 26, 2009 8:58 PM CST up reply actions

heh.. your name on here fits Adam a bit better it seems

by Mike E on Dec 26, 2009 9:43 PM CST up reply actions

vince young hate

i was just thinking the other day that given the fact that i welcome dallas cowboys love on this blog because i assume that most rangers fans are cowboys fans, I should probably be more accepting of UT love since the same is probably true. I know that there are a ton of other Texas schools and a number of other local schools but it could have been possible that UT would be the most represented school here

Anyway, I’m thankful that Adam tosses out VY hate and is generally not a UT homer. He does it way more often than I do it with my UT friends but not a whole lot less.

by ab03 on Dec 26, 2009 11:24 AM CST reply actions

AJM = Shaq

When the ball falls his way (VY sucks in a game), you’ll never hear the end of it. When it doesn’t, he’s nowhere to be found.

by brettgardner on Dec 26, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions

heh

that’s just him. even with cowboys games, when they do well…he’s a hermit, once they start playing bad, the bitching is worse than the kos commentators; coming out with the ’wade’s a clown coach’ and ’jerry’s is to blame for global warming’ and jerry riensdorf…oops, that’s for something else…

"Clearly, I've been wrong. VY is awesome." - AJM

by Longhorn on Dec 26, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions

That's bullshit, of course

But I can understand that you’re crabby after your boy VY crapped the bed last night.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 26, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions

oh, don't be such a sensitive sally

you know it’s a little give and take!

"Clearly, I've been wrong. VY is awesome." - AJM

by Longhorn on Dec 26, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions

I wouldn't have cared...

…had you not compared me to the nutjobs at the Daily Kos.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 26, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions

wasn't he your boss

i personally love daily kos yahoos. much better than the volokh yahoos or freakonomics yahoos.

by ab03 on Dec 26, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions

Whoah, AJM bringing the strong internet troll today.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 26, 2009 6:22 PM CST up reply actions

I seem to remember

AJM praising the Cowboys during the sunday morning rundown for the game they played against NO.

My podcast. I'd be very appreciative of any listeners-for enjoyment, criticism, or otherwise.

by Conjunction on Dec 26, 2009 2:16 PM CST up reply actions

yup..really says a lot about the guy.

and it’s not good.

by Mike E on Dec 26, 2009 11:53 AM CST up reply actions

Given the level of disdain you appear to have for me...

…I’m amazed you deign to hang around here.

by Adam J. Morris on Dec 26, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions

come on

we all have disdain for each other here.

"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"

by Walter Sobchak on Dec 26, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs

Rofl

I can't help it. I’m an asshole.
-brettgardner on Jul 7, 2009 10:55 PM EDT

by Jayslick on Dec 26, 2009 1:44 PM CST via mobile up reply actions

He has a level of disdain for you, too?

Who is he? I never even noticed him before he said I’m the only person on this board worth ignoring. Then I tried to figure out his relevance and have since been unsuccessful.

And That Happened: Sports with a Hint of Sarcasm

by philkid3 on Dec 26, 2009 6:23 PM CST up reply actions

lol

I was about to post how we haven’t heard anything about Young’s season up until now when he performed much better than expected. Where was the Vince Young talk after last week’s game when he had a 3 TD game or the Arizona game when he threw for 387 yards.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.

"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Dec 26, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs