Jon Heyman announces his HOF ballot
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 27, 2009 7:04 PM CST
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PrintPer BTF, Jon Heyman has tweeted his HOF ballot. It is:
Jack Morris
Dave Parker
Don Mattingly
Barry Larkin
Andre Dawson
Robbie Alomar
What a dumb ballot. There is really no excuse or justification for voting for Jack Morris, but not Bert Blyleven, who was much better, both in the regular season and in the postseason, than Morris.
And I'm also not sure how you can justify voting for Parker and not Edgar Martinez.
I don't normally comment on individual ballots, but Heyman sucks, and his ballot is so stupid I had to mention it.
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Blyleven's
stats are HOF worthy. How anyone could vote for Morris and not Blyleven is mind boggling
x
Heyman sucks
Pretty much all that needs to be said here.
I failed my LSB ethics test.
"WHAT A SHITLOAD OF FUCK" - LL's "Poochie" on Rich Harden signing with Texas over Seattle
Blyleven is going to get hosed again.
2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
Heyman's ballot
I have contended for several years that anyone who votes for Morris, while leaving Blyleven off their ballot, has no business covering baseball for a living, and should have their voting privileges permanently revoked.
The rest of Heyman’s ballot, particularly the Mattingly inclusion, further confirms this notion.
Blyleven and Raines would both be on my ballot. I’d probably also include Larkin and Alomar, and there’s a strong case for both Edgar and Trammell. Parker and Dawson are just outside for me.
Morris shouldn’t get anywhere near the Hall- the only difference between him and Dennis Martinez is one great playoff performance, and Martinez fell off the ballot after his first year.
"To have the judgment and wisdom and personal touch of Nolan Ryan, and the tremendous group that JD has assembled, I think the Rangers on the baseball side are the envy of every franchise in baseball in terms of talent."
-- Chuck Greenberg
McGwire
Forgot him. He’d be on my ballot as well.
"To have the judgment and wisdom and personal touch of Nolan Ryan, and the tremendous group that JD has assembled, I think the Rangers on the baseball side are the envy of every franchise in baseball in terms of talent."
-- Chuck Greenberg
Check out his response on his Twitter page.
@SI_jonheyman
by TooLegitToQuit on Dec 27, 2009 7:57 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Really
I think there is a segment of the voting population that isn’t going to support Blyleven because the statheads are so vocal in their support of him.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 27, 2009 8:03 PM CST up reply actions
Even so
Leaving off Blyleven and voting for Morris, an inferior pitcher, is simply retarded.
"To have the judgment and wisdom and personal touch of Nolan Ryan, and the tremendous group that JD has assembled, I think the Rangers on the baseball side are the envy of every franchise in baseball in terms of talent."
-- Chuck Greenberg
blyleven not only has him crushed in ERA+ (118 to 105), but he did it over 1100 more innings. it really is bizarre that anyone could prioritize morris over blyleven for the hall.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Dec 28, 2009 8:21 AM CST up reply actions
Its the same people that got swayed
by the Jim Rice was the most feared hitter of his era argument.
What do voluntary mean?
Man I thought I was the only one that didn't like Heyman around here
Scott Feldman – "The greatest Hawaiian-born Jewish baseball player to ever set foot on the mound."
Are you kidding?
He’s a jackass with some agendas. A mouthpiece for Boras, for one. Anyone who’d sell out for (what? return favors or leaks?) does not deserve simple attention, much less the right to vote for Hall of Fame or other milestone matters.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -
"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce
by Ed Coffin on Dec 28, 2009 1:37 AM CST up reply actions
I'm willing to bet Heyman's own mother hates him
"You'll meet them again on their long journey to the middle." -Lester Bangs
What a stupid ass ballot
There are some debateable candidates, and he happened to pick 3 guys that shouldn’t even be up for discussion. Kudos Jon.
x
ugh, is it ok to think martinez should get in even though he was a mariner?
because i kinda sorta hate all things mariners.
Why does everybody lay down when Mattingly
is on a HOF ballot?
Blyleven was good but hardly great. Same with Morris.
Raines should be in and I’d also give Alomar The Nod.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 27, 2009 11:04 PM CST up reply actions
If Mattingly
ever got in then Will Clark would have to be in as well. I cant understand putting Mattingly on and not Clark
"More than likely JW never played sports above the youth level. It amazes me that he seems to have no concept on the common reactions of an adult athlete or their normal interactions between each other." - laxonto
by Michael Cave on Dec 27, 2009 11:11 PM CST up reply actions
Mark Teixeira
has probably had a better career to date than Don Mattingly had.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 27, 2009 11:19 PM CST up reply actions
Teixeira's never been the best player in the league,
as Mattingly was for 3 years. Not HOF worthy, but damn that back injury. As Bill James once said, ‘100% ballplayer, 0% bullshit’.
I agree on Raines and Alomar.
"Ho visto il tuo agire, non solo rendono per me. Basta un sacco di fluff".
Mattingly definitely wasn't better than George Brett in 85
and Cal, Boggs, Henderson and Eddie Murray were every bit the equal that Mattingly was in the other years.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 27, 2009 11:51 PM CST up reply actions
Brett was great in 85,
as he was most every year. I give DM a slight edge with the GG defense(yes Teixeira too on that front). Can’t argue against Rickey ever, I’ll take DM over the other 3 in the mid 80s.
"Ho visto il tuo agire, non solo rendono per me. Basta un sacco di fluff".
If Blyleven doesn't deserve to be in...
…neither does your boy Nolan.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 27, 2009 11:49 PM CST up reply actions
I will be disciplined and refuse to be pulled offsides
but will all due respect, you’re full of shit.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 27, 2009 11:52 PM CST up reply actions
Compare
Won/Loss records
Nolan — 324-292, .526
Bert — 287-250, .534
ERA/WHIP
Nolan — 3.19 ERA, 1.247 WHIP, 111 ERA+
Bert — 3.31 ERA, 1.198 WHIP, 118 ERA+
K/BB/HR
Nolan — 9.5 K/9, 4.7 BB/9, .5 HR/9, 2.05 K/BB
Bert — 6.7 K/9, 2.4 BB/9, .8 HR/9, 2.80 K/BB
Rankings
Nolan — ERA — 1st 2, T5 5, T10 8 ERA+ — 1st 2, T5 3, T10 6 WHIP — 1st 2, T5 5, T10 9
Bert — ERA — 1st 0, T5 7, T10 10 ERA+ — 1st 1, T5 7, T10 12 WHIP — 1st 1, T5 7, T10 11
I’m not sure how you can look at that and say that Nolan is a slamdunk but Blyleven isn’t worthy, unless you think no hitters are the only thing that matter.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 28, 2009 12:05 AM CST up reply actions
The people who make these decisions agree strongly with me.
So strongly in fact that Nolan Ryan made it on the first ballot while Blyleven still has his nose pressed up against the window although he retired 18 years ago.
Go whine to somebody else, counselor.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 28, 2009 12:08 AM CST up reply actions
The Great Bill James
He had Blyleven and Ryan within a few spots of each other in his most recent Historical Abstract, IIRC.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 28, 2009 12:11 AM CST up reply actions
The Great Bill James
(who Adam recently said makes “worthless projections”) had Nolan Ryan at #24 and Bert Blyleven at # 39.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 28, 2009 12:14 AM CST up reply actions
Bill James doesn't do projections
I believe its his company that does the projections and they are iffy at best.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
Or the company that he sold his projection system to
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 28, 2009 1:18 PM CST up reply actions
lol
"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris
by inactive lsb user on Dec 28, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
Congratulations
You, Murray Chass, Jon Heyman, and Tracy Ringolsby all can be lumped into the same boat.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 28, 2009 12:10 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
idiotic
7 no hitters, 12 one hitters and 18 two hitters.
5,714 Strikeouts.
No one outside of the hall comes remotely close.
Bert Blyleven was so well thought of
by his own teams that he was traded 5 times (Ryan was traded once, when he was 24 years old) and what he fetched in return usually wasn’t much.
For example, In the middle of his prime (1980, 29 years old), he was traded along with Manny Sanguillen for Gary Alexander, Victor Cruz, Bob Owchinko and Rafael Vasquez.
Most of the trades he was involved in were like this with the exception of the Pittsburgh/NY Mets/ Texas cluster before the ’78 season. Why were all these teams so anxious to trade a great pitcher for little in return?
When he was 24-32 years old he never won more than 15 games. After age 32, he played 8 more years and was really good in three of those years.
He was a good pitcher and gets some points for hanging around long enough to compile some nice stats but he’s not Hall of Fame worthy and doesn’t belong in the same conversation with the great Nolan Ryan.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
ARod was so highly thought of...
…that in the middle of his prime, his manager hit him 8th in the World Series. I guess he’s not HOF worthy, huh?
Blyleven was underrated in his time, which is a large part of the reason he’s still on the outside looking in.
But what I’d like to know is, if Ryan was so much better than Blyleven, why does Blyleven have a better ERA+, and why did Blyleven have more top 5 and top 10 finishes in ERA, WHIP and ERA+ than Ryan?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 28, 2009 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
Blyleven just wasn't great, Adam.
Seaver, Carlton, Sutton, Ryan, Palmer were his contemporaries and all of them were markedly better than Blyleven.
I saw Blyleven pitch and followed the game very close during his entire career. If anything, his career was mildly disappointing given all the early hype. He should get credit for durability (which was his best attribute) and he hung around long enough to get 287 wins but that shouldn’t usher you into the Category of Great.
Look at his last 75 wins (when he was clearly just hanging on, trying to get to 300 wins) and his ERA looks a helluva lot closer to 5 than it does to 3.
The big difference between Blyleven & Ryan is the finishing kick to their careers. Give Blyleven the last 5 years Ryan (51 wins and two more no-hitters) had in Texas and he definitely would have made it Cooperstown.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 28, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
Really?
Seaver I agree — he’s one of the 6-7 best pitchers of all time.
Sutton was not better than Blyleven, and I’m at a loss as to why you’d say he is.
Palmer was probably better than Blyleven, but not by a ton. Ditto Carlton.
No question, Ryan was better at the end of his career than Blyleven was. But Blyleven was clearly better than Ryan through age 35 or so.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 28, 2009 10:50 AM CST up reply actions
"But Blyleven was clearly better than Ryan
through age 35 or so…"
Bullshit – why did his teams keep trading him for bags of shit?
I can’t let this go either. In no manner shape or form was Bert Blyleven “close” to Jim Palmer or Steve Carlton (who won between 23-27 games four times when he was 27-37 years old).
Baseball Reference claims the most similar pitcher to Bert Blyleven is in fact, Don Sutton.
Don Sutton was the anchor of the Dodgers in the 70’s. Other pitchers would have good years for the Dodgers but Sutton was their most consistent starting pitcher over the entire decade.
He was a great pitcher on one of the best teams of the decade and you didn’t see him get traded for Mike Cubbage, Jim Gideon or Bob Owchinko.
Sutton did become a bit of a nomad after he became a free agent but he was still a relevant pitcher on several good teams from the 80’s as well.
Yes, I hold the fact that Blyleven was traded several times against him. That many people weren’t wrong about him.
A nice pitcher but simply not great.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 28, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
Stop using wins and trades as measuring sticks.
Thanks.
What do tigers dream of when they take a little tiger snooze? Do they dream of mauling zebras, or Halle Berry in her Catwoman suit?
Do you know of any bad or mediocre pitchers
who put up more than 300 wins?
I can agree that wins don’t always tell you how well a pitcher throws (Ryan went 8-17 one year and was one of the best pitchers in MLB) but when you review a career, it’s a very telling stat.
The trades tell you exactly how the teams Blyleven pitched for felt about him. One trade with bad players involved can be dismissed but Blyleven was involved in several trades where he was exchanged for bags of shit.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 28, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
That's what happens in pre-saber front offices.
Underrated in his time.
This is the operative phrase, here.
"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris
by inactive lsb user on Dec 28, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
Probably somewhat underrated
by his own teams and a victim of bad luck but that doesn’t mean he was as good as Seaver, Sutton, Palmer, Ryan and Carlton.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 28, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
Why is the HOF prerequisite
to be a better pitcher than 5 of the best to ever pick up a baseball?
You’re struggling to make the proper comparisons.
Even so, Adam has already proved beyond a doubt that the performance differences between Ryan and Blyleven are, in fact, negligible. It was hard for me to believe at first, too. He’s right.
"Nothing we do here has a point" - Czar Morris
by inactive lsb user on Dec 28, 2009 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
x
Being underrated doesn’t make him better than Sutton, but being better than Sutton makes him better than Sutton.
by brettgardner on Dec 28, 2009 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
He wasn't better than Sutton.
While Sutton was mostly the anchor of one the best teams in MLB for his first 15 years Blyleven mostly kicked around Baseball Siberia (with the one year We Are Family exception) and was treated like the fruitcake that kept getting passed around.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 28, 2009 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
This is silly.
Either we have to agree that we’re basing this on on-the-field play—which means statistics—or we’re not.
Throwing some ethereal shit on the wall about who played where and when is the definition of “pussyfooting”.
by brettgardner on Dec 28, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Josey
Don’t let the argument blind you. It isn’t a comparison between Ryan and Blyleven. Assessment for the Hall is, or should be, entirely on the merit of a players’ body of work. Blyleven should clearly be “in” versus being “almost”, given all the criteria available. It’s about Bert, in isolation, and I’d think he’d have made it by now. That isn’t the case, and the complaint by many (including Adam) is his being overlooked on a rational performance basis.
Comparing any pitcher to any other is useful, but doesn’t take into full account all the vairiables. Who did he face? How consistent was he over his career? And so on.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -
"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce
by Ed Coffin on Dec 28, 2009 12:04 PM CST up reply actions
Big Ed -
The comparison between Blyleven & Ryan is laughable.
I will respect what Baseball Reference says about Sutton & Blyleven but Sutton pitched on much better teams (and that makes a difference with me).
After his great 15 year run with the Dodgers, Sutton had several post-season 80s swims thru Houston, Milwaukee and California. He was almost always one of the better pitchers on some of the best teams in baseball throughout his career.
You saw the same Blyleven I did and both of us know for most of his career he was considered good but rarely, if ever, great.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 28, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions
I will entertain the assertsions
that Blyleven had a career along the lines of HOFs Drysdale & Jenkins but he wasn’t anywhere close to Palmer, Carlton, Ryan, Sutton or Seaver.
Should he be in if Drysdale & Jenkins made it? THAT makes for an interesting discussion.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 28, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
What evidence
Are you offering that Sutton was better than Blyleven on the field?
by brettgardner on Dec 28, 2009 12:31 PM CST up reply actions
Because Stone Cold says so.
Oh wait because Josey Wales says so. Damn the stats.
What do voluntary mean?
So you want to put Blyleven in
the HOF solely because at the end of the day (horrible cliche), he compiled a lot of stats?
Stats are meaningful but his stats came about more because of durability than any sense of greatness.
On the best team he played for (’79 Pirates) he was the third best starting pitcher.
On the second best team he played for (’87 Twins) he was the second best starting pitcher.
He never won more than 15 games between the ages of 25 to 32 and with the exception of a couple years, he was fairly spare the rest of his career.
Although he pitched forever, he was only named to two AS teams.
He never won a Cy Young and only finished as high as 3rd in the voting twice.
He was a really good pitcher at times but he has no business going to Cooperstown.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
He pitched at a very high level for a very long time
That’s why he deserves to be in the Hall.
If he was such a spare for so much of his career and really wasn’t that good overall, how is it his ERA and ERA+ compares so favorably with his contemporaries who are in the Hall?
Why does the most comparable pitcher mechanism that Bill James came up with show 8 of the 10 most comparable pitchers as being HOFers, with the other two — Tommy John and Jim Kaat — being guys who simply weren’t as good as Blyleven?
Explain why you think Sutton deserves to be in, but not Blyleven. What makes Sutton better?
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 28, 2009 2:25 PM CST up reply actions
Mainly,
the relevance of the teams they played for during their careers.
Pitching for the Dodgers in the late 70’s holds much more relevance than pitching for the early 80s Indians.
With very few exceptions, that’s how it was for most of their careers.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
is this a real argument or are you being sarcastic?
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Dec 28, 2009 2:59 PM CST up reply actions
Bert Blyleven probably had the ability
to anchor the Dodgers starting rotation for 15 years but Don Sutton actually did it (and was still an effective pitcher after he left LA on mostly good teams thru ’86).
Relevance matters.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
Of course
Sutton wasn’t also a good a pitcher as Blyleven.
Performance matters.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 28, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions
If Blyleven was so much better than Sutton
how come his teams kept trading him for so many bags of shit?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
Their GM's didn't have Nolan around to make sure they didnt make dumb trades
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
by rentz on Dec 28, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well
Let’s look at the deals.
In 1976, ignoring the ancillary pieces, he was traded for Roy Smalley — a 23 year old shortstop and former #1 overall draft pick — and Mike Cubbage, a 25 year old 3B and former 2nd round pick, plus $250,000. The Twins basically sold one of the best pitchers in the league for a bunch of money and a couple of nice young players.
In 1977, the Rangers traded him to get Al Oliver and Jon Matlack — not exactly “bags of shit.”
In 1980, he was traded in a deal where Pittsburgh got basically nothing for him and Manny Sanguillen.
In 1985, he was traded by the Indians at the trade deadline for a package of young players that included Jay Bell, the #8 overall pick in the draft the year before and a future All Star who had a damn good career. Jay Bell isn’t a “bag of shit.”
Finally, after his age 37 season, he was sent to the Angels by the Twins in a deal involving Paul Sorrento, but which didn’t really involve getting great value back.
So, he was traded 5 times. To say that he kept trading him for bags of shit, when you look at what the deals actually involved, is pretty stupid.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 28, 2009 4:38 PM CST up reply actions
Being traded for Al Oliver
is HOF worthy by itself.
"Ho visto il tuo agire, non solo rendono per me. Basta un sacco di fluff".
Jay Bell was so well thought of
by the Indians that three years later they included him in a deal as a PTBNL involving the immortal Denny Gonzalez.
Bell eventually had a pretty good career but he wasn’t highly valued by anybody other than his parents when he was dealt for Blyleven in 1985.
The Twins were so impressed with Paul Sorrento’s fine work that they dealt him to Cleveland after three years for Curt Leskanic and the Great Oscar Munoz.
Blyleven bounced around a lot in his career and when he was traded, it was usually for a bag of shit from somebody else’s front yard.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
Nobody...
in this thread can understand anything you said with Nolan’s balls in your mouth.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Thought you were
in the Troll Script Club…did they teach ya the secret handshake yet?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 29, 2009 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
Monkeys like to throw their own poop.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
how would you quantify relevance?
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Dec 28, 2009 3:09 PM CST up reply actions
Ah
I didn’t realize that HOF worthiness was based on no hitters, one hitters, and two hitters.
I thought it was about your body of work as a pitcher.
by Adam J. Morris on Dec 28, 2009 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
I'd say having more completely dominate performances is included
in a body of work as a pitcher.
I never said Blylevin doesn’t deserve it, but to say he was close to as good as Nolan is quite a bit of a stretch.
by texasraider on Dec 28, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
There seems to be 2 extremes here
Those who only see the records, and those who seem to dismiss them.
I’ve come to realize since my childhood that Nolan Ryan isn’t the greatest pitcher since sliced bread, but he was still pretty damned good.
It gets so frustrating every time the Nolan Ryan debate comes along.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
He was pretty damned good.
In fact, I probably take him ahead of Blyleven. My argument would look nothing like that silliness above, though.
i will say
robbie should be a first ballot hall of famer
dawson definitely deserves to be in
and i also would have voted for mcgwire
Dawson's the perfect guy for differing views on HOF standards.
He’s comparable and better than a few already in. If you think the Hall should be reserved for singular type players, then only Alomar deserves it from that list.
So yeah, I agree- not a definite. Others might look at the former.
"Ho visto il tuo agire, non solo rendono per me. Basta un sacco di fluff".
wtf
i’m not sure how that twitter thing works, but it looks like he said these things…
i dont believe i said "stats shouldn’t be used.’’ ive said i dont go by stats alone.
morris received cy votes 7 times, bert 4. not to say that alone means morris was better. but were those voters "insane’’ too?
"Clearly, I've been wrong. VY is awesome." - AJM
In 84 and 92
yes it was stupid to give him Cy Young votes based almost solely on his win total. If Morris deserved Cy Young votes in 84 and 92 then Rick Helling likely deserved some in 98. Being a little above average and logging a bunch of wins doesn’t make for a great pitcher. But what can you do some bbwa members seem to be stuck in the 50s.
What do voluntary mean?
He DID deserve Cy Young votes that year.
Rick Helling was the best pitcher the Rangers have had since Nolan came along.
Seriously, 20 wins with a 4+ ERA? That means he had crazy intangibles that year that made all of the batters better when he pitched!
Why didn’t that get factored into the votes?
Barry Larkin?
Cincinnati sucks
If you really want to pour you're ten dollar concession stand beer on me, I take that as a compliment.
Cincy may suck
but Larkin was a damned fine player. AT the offensive levels one usually pegs for a SS he should be a sure fire HOF player.
What do voluntary mean?
Gagree.
I don’t have a whole lot of HSOs on the HOF balloting — it’s a dog and pony show — but Larkin was an excellent player.
What do tigers dream of when they take a little tiger snooze? Do they dream of mauling zebras, or Halle Berry in her Catwoman suit?
Upon further review...
I’d also lean towards putting Larkin in as well.
Very, very good player bordering on greatness.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 28, 2009 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
In an era where SS was a defense-first, offense-if-you-get-it position...
…Larkin’s 116 career OPS+ is pretty remarkable.
(For example, notable shortstops in 1995, when Larkin won the MVP: Royce Clayton, Walt Weiss, Jay Bell, Jose Vizcaino, Kevin Stocker, Jeff Blauser).
What do tigers dream of when they take a little tiger snooze? Do they dream of mauling zebras, or Halle Berry in her Catwoman suit?
But his teams sucked.
I thought that mattered?
It did for Blyleven.
Josey...
your a dumb fuck
congratulations…please go participate in the darwin awards sometime and do us a favor
Fuck Mike Estabrook
I have my moments
but I also know when to use “your” and “you’re.”
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 28, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
I'm as big an opponent of Josey as there is...
…but this is sort of a pot/kettle situation.
What do tigers dream of when they take a little tiger snooze? Do they dream of mauling zebras, or Halle Berry in her Catwoman suit?
ghtd,
You are a spit wad running into a battleship.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
"Ranger players, especially veterans, weren’t surprised that Daniels couldn’t find a deal"
"Business as usual." - Tom Hicks on the Ranger off-season 11/19/09
by Josey Wales on Dec 28, 2009 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
And here I thought we were having a hearty, down to earth conversation.
Oh well. I guess your jihad against all things rational continues undeterred.
What do tigers dream of when they take a little tiger snooze? Do they dream of mauling zebras, or Halle Berry in her Catwoman suit?
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