Rangers offer for Johnson?
by SonnyKoufaxLSU on Dec 8, 2009 5:06 PM CST
49 comments
December 8, 2009, 4:32 PM
By: Richard Durrett
INDIANAPOLIS -- Walking through the lobby turned up an interesting find. One baseball official says the Texas Rangers offered pitcher Neftali Feliz and first baseman Justin Smoak for Florida's Josh Johnson.
Johnson, an All-Star, had a 15-5 record and a 3.23 ERA last season for Florida. He had 191 strikeouts and 58 walks and opponents batted just .237 against him.
The fact that the Rangers would even consider giving up two of their top prospects for Johnson could show they feel they can win the division the next two seasons and are willing to make a big move to do it.
But I'll be honest: I don't make that move. I think Feliz has shown way too much potential.
Your thoughts?
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I wouldn't have done this
But I doubt the credibility of this offer. I don’t see JD offering Smoak to a team whose second-best prospect is also a first baseman.
by Conjunction on Dec 8, 2009 5:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
which prospect is considered their best 1b now?
ive seen 2 sanchez and morrison
by ENDLESS on Dec 8, 2009 5:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Morrison all the way
Sanchez is like 25 and looks like a backup
"I was going to say, 'You’re gay for Elvis.' But then I realized that I, too, am gay for Elvis." ~Adam J. Morris.
by Kinslerhomer on Dec 8, 2009 5:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and they said no?
wow.
I wonder what their fans think about that…
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
by clark on Dec 8, 2009 5:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
exactly
i have a hard time believing its true for the sole reason that i cant imagine a team like the marlins, a team that was obviously fielding offers for johnson and prefers to operate on a lean budget, would reject that deal
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Dec 8, 2009 5:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts...
are this better not be true.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Dec 8, 2009 5:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
It’s gotta be the other way around. I’m guessing JD asked about Johnson and the Marlins asked for Feliz and Smoak in return.
I didn't know what a mancrush was. Derek Holland showed me.
by DerekSTheRed on Dec 8, 2009 5:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You know
thinking about this, I suspect that maybe the deal was something more than just Feliz/Smoak for Johnson. The Marlins say yes to that immediately – I don’t care how deep their farm is at 1b. If this is true, I suspect the Rangers wanted something else as well – maybe a few hitting prospects who are further away from the bigs (Matt Dominguez, Kyle Skipworth). Guys who “generic Rangers official” wouldn’t bother mentioning
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Dec 8, 2009 5:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I still have a hard time believing that
Like others have said — there has to be more to it than that.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 8, 2009 5:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe Johnson/Lindstrom?
And even then, I wouldn’t do it.
I think Luke French has a lot of potential. TORP potential.-Dstar
by sprite on Dec 8, 2009 5:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, the details are vague no matter who is reporting it.
Maybe the Marlins just legitimately don’t want to move him. I’m fine with that, if it’s going to cost that much or more to get him.
Jimmy Johnson for GM.
by txhc on Dec 8, 2009 5:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I love Johnson
but not that much. I would personally be willing to include Smoak in a deal, but not any of the big three pitchers. Maybe a Smoak, Kiker or Ross, and a lower level guy like Boscan or maybe even Font. I know that’s a lot, but JJ is a legit TORP.
That's why they call them business sox
by egriffey on Dec 8, 2009 6:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Wow. A whole lot of knee-jerk we-love-our prospects in this thread.
Really, it’s not all that likely that Feliz and Smoak will contribute over the next three years what Johnson can. I think it’s unjustified to dismiss this trade idea without thinking.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
by rooster on Dec 8, 2009 6:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I think it's pretty unjustified to assume we dismissed the idea without thinking about it first
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 8, 2009 6:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In less than an hour, every post was about how this was a really bad idea.
There wasn’t one post that laid out the pros/cons of such a trade.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
by rooster on Dec 8, 2009 11:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that would be because the pros of actually having Johnson pitch for us is VASTLY overwhelmed by the suck of trading both Feliz and Smoak…that’s why everyone realizes that it is a horrible trade idea.
"The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic" - Charles Darwin, you know who he is...
by 8legs2fangs on Dec 9, 2009 8:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, lay them out so we can all see how the pros are so vastly overwhelmed.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
by rooster on Dec 9, 2009 9:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well the news that has come out since has justified us for all thinking that was such a bad trade
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 9, 2009 8:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
My thinking is this.
You have to look at Johnson as a two-year trade and cannot evaluate the value of the trade with the idea that he will sign an extension. In that case, it’s not too much different than the Halladay situation last year. I will say right now I was willing to give up one of the big 4 (Holland, Feliz, Smoak, Perez) to get Halladay.
However, if the offer of Smoak/Feliz was contingent on whether the Rangers would be able to secure an extension, it changes everything.
How likely is it that Feliz will provide two years of Ace results over the next 5 years? IF he does, it most likely will not be until years 3-5, and even that likelihood isn’t all that great.
Smoak, I believe his bat. I think he’s much more likely to be All-Star or near All-Star levels within 3 years than Feliz. The primary reason is that Feliz has quite a bit of development left to do with his secondary pitches. That seems to me to be a longer process than the time it takes a young, premium, patient hitter to adjust to the speed and complexity of major league pitching.
Bottom line, would I send Feliz/Smoak to Florida for Johnson. Probably not. Feliz alone, probably. Smoak alone, probably. Here’s the caveat: If the Rangers have other things in the works (maybe not reported at the time of the proposed Johnson trade) to shore up DH for a few years, I would trade both for Johnson.
That would probably be an overpay when summing WAR per dollar spent over the five years the Marlins would have Feliz/Smoak, but if the middle of the order were shored up for a few years, an Ace is really the only major piece that would be missing for a playoff run, and it would be worth overpaying to have a firmer expectation of post-season success.
It’s moot, since a Rangers official denied the report, but still worth thinking through, IMO.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
by rooster on Dec 9, 2009 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine
But assuming all of us didn’t think it through just because we didn’t type it out was unjustified.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Dec 9, 2009 9:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
this +1,000,000
we arent fuckin stupid
we tend to follow and assume the ceiling comes true for our prospects and when they are as close to the majors as smoak and Feliz, it isnt stupid to start making those assumptions
Fuck Mike Estabrook
by Horns130 on Dec 9, 2009 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can think about it all day long
Nope. I’m not trading Feliz for a guy with two just expensive arbitration years before free agency. Have you seen the kid pitch? Smoak, yeah, he’s a prospect, he’s never faced major league pitching, whatever. Feliz held his own in what had to be the most captivating Rangers debut I’ve seen since at least Pudge, probably ever.
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Dec 8, 2009 6:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"most captivating debut since at least Pudge, probably ever"
well said
by ab03 on Dec 8, 2009 6:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you said it much more eloquently
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
by iorange555 on Dec 8, 2009 6:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
this isn't a couple of A ball guys
Feliz has proven he can mow down big league hitters, and Smoak is in AAA. These guys are legit.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
by clark on Dec 8, 2009 8:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And Johnson is far more legit.
He’s all-star. He’s a #1 pitcher. He’s only going to cost $4MM this year, and he’s got at least 1 year of team-controlled arbitration after that. Are you so certain that Feliz will reach his ceiling that you say, “No,” to this so readily?
by NoNameOnCard on Dec 8, 2009 9:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
trading 5 or 6 years of Feliz
and the same of Smoak for 2 years of Josh Johnson would be stupid. You are talking about 2 players that could be in the top 15 of ALL baseball prospects.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by NothinG on Dec 8, 2009 8:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And you are talking about...
A pitcher who is in the Top 15 of ALL baseball pitchers.
by NoNameOnCard on Dec 8, 2009 9:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
it'd be one thing if this team was a sure playoff contender
and you’re acquiring him to be an ace-quality arm in the playoffs. Because top 15 pitchers are way more meaningful in October than they are any other time.
As it is, there is no guarantee that this team, as constructed, makes the playoffs even if Josh Johnson is anchoring the staff. It is still an 85 win team with that offense. I see no reason to trade two long-term future pieces for an ace starting pitcher unless you’re going to follow through and make the necessary improvements to the lineup as well. Because this deal is betting 20012-2015 in a double down for 2010-2011. You’d better know what you’re doing.
Go Rice Owls!
by JBImaknee on Dec 8, 2009 10:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that that is a bad trade but...
…you have to make the playoffs so that top 15 pitcher can help out in the playoffs. Maybe you could trade BMac, Ross, Kiker and Smoak for Johnson?
2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
In the interest of quicker games Ron should just tell the ump he's pulling the Feliz card and the ump should rule the inning over.--Sherman McCoy on Sept. 4, 2009
by boomer1 on Dec 8, 2009 11:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If this team isn't a sure playoff contender in 2010, the last 3 years are a waste.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
by rooster on Dec 8, 2009 11:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that’s a ridiculous statement… This “thing” is not in a vacuum…other teams are trying to get better as well/hold onto their playoff runs. Two years of Johnson for the years of Smoak and Feliz are not worth it. I’d rather let this team mature, by giving those 2 and others an extra year, and have a long run of success than dump the chips in for next year.
"The mystery of the beginning of all things is insoluble by us; and I for one must be content to remain an agnostic" - Charles Darwin, you know who he is...
by 8legs2fangs on Dec 9, 2009 8:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Let this team mature isn't much of an option for JD or Wash, whose contracts end in 2010.
Every bit of information from the Rangers FO has said that 2010 is the year they expect the Rangers to have an expectation of reaching the playoffs.
Some prospects will have to be traded in order for the team to be at that level. Young players have much more volatility and very few actually hit the ceilings envisioned for them. The volatility is the main reason to look for trades.
Pro baseball has always been a dream, so this is pretty freakin’ cool out here. -- Tim Steggall, undrafted Rangers minor leaguer.
by rooster on Dec 9, 2009 8:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's fine...
trading some prospects is bound to happen, but two of your top 3 in one deal would just suck. Feliz and Smoak aren’t just “some prospects”. They are the biggest prospects who are closest to helping out the big league club.
You don’t do Feliz and Smoak for Johnson. Period.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Dec 9, 2009 9:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Nothing this team has or hasn’t done in the last three years is preventing them from being a playoff contender in 2010.
It’s the fucking imbecile of an owner, who drove himself and this organization off a pier into a financial lake of debt that’s preventing us from being a playoff contender in 2010.
I don’t see why the soon-to-be-former owner’s incompetence should reflect on the talent pool that has been built up over the last three years.
I failed my LSB ethics test.
"It's kind of a new stat that's in vogue" - Joe Buck on OPS
by lonestarJon on Dec 9, 2009 8:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He's a very good pitcher, assuming he's healthy.
He went from two injury plagued seasons to throwing over 200 innings for the first time last season. The chances of him having a fully healthy 2010 and 2011 aren’t all that good. If you give up two of your top three prospects (both of whom are either ready or near ready to help this team compete) for a great big chance of injury, you’re making the same kind of dumb moves that kept us in the cellar in the first 8 years of this decade.
I’d love to have Johnson and would take the chance on his health if the price was reasonable. Feliz and Smoak is nowhere close to being reasonable.
by Athos on Dec 9, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow...
That cannot be true. The Marlins would be really dumb to turn down that offer… that would rank up there with the Diamondback’s decision to trade Scherzer for Jackson.
And if that offer is somehow true, I’d have to imagine that Texas felt they could sign Johnson long term.
by Stephen Rushin on Dec 8, 2009 6:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hey you know what?
Fuck it lets go for the world series next year.
TRADE DEREK. WE DON’T NEED HIM. He won’t be ready till 2012 anyways, and we can trade for him back then. FELIZ can’t match up to last season, so fucking trade him too, and we’ll trade for him back in 2011 when he’ll be coming into his own.
We don’t need smoak either, so fuck him too. Trade him as well, and that Perez kid because we can trade for him back in 2011 as well.
We’re playing for 2010.
Texas rangers baby. Number one.
I don’t get why more teams don’t do that just trade them when they’re young, then trade back when they’re good. It’s so simple, but we have fucking turds running the front office that wouldn’t know the front office from the back onnice.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
by iorange555 on Dec 8, 2009 6:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
isnt that kind of like
selling a stock at 10 dollars then assuming you ll be able to buy it back 2 years later when its 30? how can you afford to do this
by ENDLESS on Dec 10, 2009 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Frankie Piliere said the rumor is false
Looked into the rumor that Tex offered Feliz/Smoak for Josh Johnson. I’m told there’s “zero” truth to it. No such offer was made
Just to follow up, also told that the rumor about Johnson/Texas’ offer is “ridiculous”. So not sure where that one came from but looks bogus
"Blister please, with those wings in your spine.
Love to be with a brother of mine.
How he'd love to find your tongue in his teeth,
In a struggle to find secret songs that you keep,
Wrapped in boxes so tight, sounding only at night as you sleep." ~Jeff Mangum; Neutral Milk Hotel
by jdh90 on Dec 8, 2009 8:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
that makes me feel better
i also still believe we wouldnt offer that and there is no way florida could possibly turn it down either
Fuck Mike Estabrook
by Horns130 on Dec 9, 2009 1:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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