On ARod on 'Roids
by Adam J. Morris on Feb 10, 2009 10:00 AM CST
Email
PrintSo, yeah, this ARod thing.
It is a mess. It is disappointing. It is bad that, once again, this is a big story.
It is bad that the two greatest players of the past 40 years have been implicated in this, along with the greatest pitcher of the past 40 years.
It is bad that, once again, steroids, PEDs, whatever, is the story around baseball right now.
I am glad, at least, that ARod has gone the Andy Pettitte route, is confessing, asking forgiveness, acting contrite. He seems to have learned something from Roger Clemens, it appears.
It may help. Or it may not. Given what a lightning rod ARod is anyway, it may do nothing, and he's going to be hung either way.
I do think the MLBPA screwed this up royally, by not ensuring that the samples were destroyed, as they were supposed to have been.
And I also think it is rather Showaltered that, of all the 100+ positive tests, The People Who Know Things opted to leak just this one name.
I don't know that I have a whole lot else to say on the issue that I haven't said already.
I will say that if, as Richard Justice, Bill Madden, and other writers have suggested, Alex Rodriguez won't be elected to the Hall of Fame because of this, we might as well shut the baseball Hall of Fame down.
The argument is that players in the "Steroid Era" don't deserve to be on the same pedestal as guys like Gaylord Perry, Whitey Ford, John McGraw, and other players who played the game The Right Way and who would never think of bending the rules.
But the reality is, the Steroid Era isn't likely to end in our lifetime. Players have been looking for an edge since baseball was first played. And in the age of modern pharmaceuticals, it is asinine to think that testing is going to change any of this.
We don't know who all has used. Realistically, there's no one in baseball from the last 25 years who can be said to be 100%, no question, without a doubt, clean...particularly given that the one superstar who it seems most folks in the game thought was almost certainly clean has now come up dirty.
If the argument that a player who has used steroids/PEDs/whatever isn't HOF worthy is valid, then there's no point in continuing to induct players in the Hall. Cut it off as of the mid-80s, and forget trying to honor anyone who played after that, who is playing now, and who will be playing at any time in the future.
Because this stuff isn't going away, no matter how many Mitchell Reports or Congressional investigations or pious, sanctimonious proclamations from douchebag owners are generated.
I've talked about this before, how hypocritical it is to demonize Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens while heralding Shawne Merriman, how ridiculous it is to view baseball as a dirty sport while somehow the NFL gets a pass. I will say that I think it has something to do with how personalized baseball is, how it is easily identifiable and recognizable men who are of relatively normal size, while football involves homogenized groups of players who are padded, helmeted, and unnaturally large to start with. I think it has to do with holding baseball players to a different standard than football players...an acceptance, it seems, that unnatural size and strength and shortened lifespans and altered physiques are part of the NFL game, while baseball is thought to be simply different.
But at the end of the day, this is the reality: if you follow competitive sports, you have to realize that some of the athletes you are watching are going to be using PEDs. The tests are always going to be one step, two steps, behind the latest and greatest drugs.
This whole thing makes me think of two quotes...two quotes that, to me, summarize the Steroid Era, the ARod scandal, Bonds, Merriman, and high level sports in general.
I read the first one in a 1991 Kenny Moore story in SI. It is from Speed Trap, a book written by Charlie Francis, Ben Johnson's coach, in 1990, in the aftermath of the Johnson scandal:
"There have always been athletes who were willing to forgo drugs. But these abstainers are unlikely to stop at a single compromise. They tend to be the same people who are unwilling to leave a school or job for full-time training, or move away from friends and family to find the best possible coach, or to make the myriad other sacrifices that go into becoming a world-class athlete. They may be healthier, more well-rounded individuals for their concessions, but they will not reach the top. The best athletes, for better or worse, are the most single-minded ones."
The other one is from The Color of Money, and comes from Vincent Lauria, young punk-ass pool hustler wannabe, mouthing off to Fast Eddie Felson about why he plays nine ball:
"Maybe this game is just for bangers. But the thing is, even if its just for bangers, everybody's doing it.
"And if everybody's doing it, then there's a lot of guys doing it.
"A lot of guys doing it...but someone has to be the best."
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Single-mindedness
That’s probably true in every profession. You’re not going to make it to the top unless you want it more than anything else. If you prefer family, leisure time, or even ethics, you’re not going to get there. Our culture rewards obsession.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
it's not our culture
it’s any culture since the history of time
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
No it’s any SUCCESSFUL culture since the beginning of time. Those cultures that don’t promote obsessiveness were culled from the herd so to speak by Social Darwinism.
Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!
by DerekSTheRed on Feb 10, 2009 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
They haven't found any cave drawings
with cheesy business slogans about achieving yet. And there isn’t much point in striving if you’re a serf. I think this sort of achievement ethic (which, to be clear is definitely not a bad thing, or at least not all bad) is more of a free market society thing.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Feb 10, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
If you are a serf, you'd strive to be free
Being obsessive about something just means that it matters a whole lot to you, and if that’s the case, being obsessive is probably the normal, natural, and human response – not a creation of society. A better question might be what makes something important to someone, and societal structure sometimes influences that.
I did not say society created obsessiveness,
just that our current culture rewards it.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
even a serf
that was really good at singing would have been rewarded for practicing all the time
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
I'm sure
he would have won a serf grammy and dated the hottest serf models wearing their designer burlap and been beaten with the most stylish clubs.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
That feudal life
Was one of constant misery and murder is largely a gloss put on by an advanced future.
A look at the multitude of occurrences and instances that our own society shares with European feudalism is enough to convince me that we haven’t done anything extraordinarily out of step with other societies.
But of course, wealth breeds the desire for more wealth, so in that sense I’m sure you’re correct.
by brettgardner on Feb 11, 2009 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah A-Rod
personally I feel like we as fans shouldn’t be surprised by anyone admitting to their usage of steroids. What good is it gonna do but disappoint you in the long run? It isn’t gonna make you stop watching baseball. A person who loves baseball just saw it fall from grace. How many times has that happened with anything you have a love for? Just goes to show people are human and make mistakes. I don’t condone the usage but I’m saying it isn’t news anymore. It’s skeletons in the closet coming out one by one.
Always
Deep
I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.
...at the time, I wasn’t being truthful with myself. How could I be truthful with Katie Couric or CBS?
by Brian Thomas on Feb 10, 2009 10:17 AM CST up reply actions
Steroids is
the most boring story out there.
anyone who wasn’t using them wasn’t doing enough to win and wasn’t a team player.
Get off my lawn.
really?
might be the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard
by wiggitywhales on Feb 10, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
so you're saying...
you’re not a team player if you’re not willing to cheat??
by wiggitywhales on Feb 10, 2009 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
so you're saying
you are a team player if you don’t run sprints because you think you’re fast enough already?
in that case you wouldn't be...
if you want to be an ass and not run sprints, then you’re team will look down upon you for being a pompus dick….but to go to the extreme and say because you won’t take roids, you’re hurting the team is a lil much
by wiggitywhales on Feb 10, 2009 12:21 PM CST up reply actions
what about vitamins?
if one guy takes Centrum and sees his power go up but doesn’t like the chalky taste and drops them wouldn’t that be hurting the team?
no...
that’s just a stupid point, merely nit picking to try and win an argument
by wiggitywhales on Feb 10, 2009 12:30 PM CST up reply actions
You might not want to cheat
but in a time when you half around half the league, if not more, taking pills, injections, creams, etc. to make themselves better players, if you weren’t doing it then you weren’t doing everything you could to win. Especially since none of that stuff was really against the rules at that time.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
i understand you're argument...
but even if it were ‘legal’ at the time it was still hush hush and some what under the radar. no one would ever call someone out for not doing a pill or injection or cream and tell everyone he’s hurting the team because he’s not juicing. i have a feeling that never crossed anyone ones mind. it was more selfish reasons then anything
by wiggitywhales on Feb 10, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, there are documented stories of pitchers on their day to pitch calling out position players for NOT taking greenies
The implication was typically that they weren’t giving 100%.
Not sure about roids, however.
I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.
...at the time, I wasn’t being truthful with myself. How could I be truthful with Katie Couric or CBS?
by Brian Thomas on Feb 10, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
greenies?
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
Gaylord Perry used to tell
his fellow players to “bean up” when he was supposed to start a day game.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
don't doubt it...
and that’s hilarious. guess it all comes full circle, the culture has always been there and hasn’t changed. i’ll be interesting 50 years from now to see what they’ll be saying about the whole roids/HoF/home run/juiced era.
by wiggitywhales on Feb 10, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
You're not a team player unless you're willing to do as much as you can to help your team win.
And considering baseball wasn’t even testing or punishing for steroid use. . .
Cahill’s going through a painful divorce.
Keep that in mind, like putting on glasses to watch a 3D movie.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 10, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
at this point
the mlbpa should come out en masse and say “we all used steroids…get over it”
then if journalists/fans want to stop following the game they can. personally, I don’t care anymore.
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
by ab03 on Feb 10, 2009 10:06 AM CST reply actions 6 recs
I'm sure that would go over real well with the guys who are actually accountable for their actions.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
to those people
bye.
baseball will just have to find away without your support.
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
I think that he meant the players not the fans
Godwin's Law Version 2.0 (Rangers Edition)
"As a Ranger discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Danks, Volquez, or Young approaches one."
by LBBRangerFan on Feb 10, 2009 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
All it takes is 1
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
he can have a separate statement
I didnt’ take steroids…and we can make him retroactive MVP for the last 15 years, put him in the HOF, and move on.
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
That's always been my thought
Selig and Fehr need to be the ones that apologize and take the blame for this mess and hopefully move on.
I need to think something lasts forever, and it might as well be that state of being that is a game; it might as well be that, in a green field, in the sun.
actually
that’s exactly what should happen. selig is a giant dumbass if he thinks this one by one outing is better for the game.
He should just come out and say: “I don’t want to single out anymore players – the fact of the matter is steroid use was rampant, among a large cross section of players, because of ineffective testing. we have gone to great lengths to correct this and we are confident that we have made progress. people can put whatever qualifications they want on the last 15 years but we are moving forward.”
Then he should resign.
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
Selig
All this happened under his watch. To me there are only two possibilities. 1) Selig heard the rumors about steroids and ignored them until it became impossible to do so. 2) Selig was so dumb he never heard any rumors even though at least 100+ players were on them.
Either way Selig screwed this up and he needs to take the blame accordingly. But he won’t. He’s more worried about his “legacy” than the good of the game.
I need to think something lasts forever, and it might as well be that state of being that is a game; it might as well be that, in a green field, in the sun.
Not rec worthy
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
I don’t think that they all used steroids, and that there are clean players out there who should be outraged. I also don’t think that we should simply “get over it”. If cheating is not only allowed, be it in the form of PEDs, spitballs, etc., but that that anyone who would want to do away with cheating is admonished…well I can’t stand for that.
The game is only worthy of our support if there are accepted, common rules for all. When fans accept that any player can do anything to unlevel the playing field at any time, then we’re inching closer and closer to professional rasslin’.
by biff pocoroba on Feb 10, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
i think in situations like these
you have to think differently. with so many people involved, you just have to accept that the sport was acting badly as a whole. even the people that didn’t cheat certainly knew about it and didn’t do enough to stop it. everybody has culpability.
I’m not saying continue to use steroids – there is testing now and people are presumably getting caught and paying penalties. let’s just stop looking at pre 2003
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
testing is
irrelevant. Players have moved on to HGH,
"If you have a problem with me, you're probably a doucher."
by red shoe ranger on Feb 10, 2009 5:26 PM CST up reply actions
survey
If the survey tests were to be anonymous then why did they even record the names?
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
The kicker was the
jackass reporter last night who asked Obama for his thoughts on ARod’s steroid use. Really? The economy is in meltdown and we’re fighting two wars, but you get called on in the president’s first press conference and you ask that? Of course, Obama had to give the pc response of how it saddened him and he worried about the message it sent to young kids. Give me a break. He should have told the reporter that the question was below his pay grade.
"A good start would be not giving up 900 runs again." -Jon Daniels
by Randy Richardson on Feb 10, 2009 10:13 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Exactly....
I tuned in last night to see Obama’s plan to create more jobs so my sainted mother can finally get an F’ing job…………..but, NO!!!!!! I still had to hear about this boring, useless steroid crap!!
…..sigh.
t ball on MY - "hate the contract, don't hate the player"
Yeah...
that was a joke and really pissed me off.
That guy should be shit-canned. Then maybe he would understand the current condition the country is in, and not feel the need to ask the fuckin’ President about baseball and PED’s.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Where is all the outrage directed where it should be,
at Selig & Fehr? Didn’t they totally screw the pooch on the “anonymous” testing, leaving this HUGE white elephant in the room?
I pretty much agree with Dan & others on this: who gives a rats ass? However, this does damage the sport I so love, by virtue of all the grandstanding, mud-slinging, and angst ridden hand wringing by the sports media dooshes.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
The owners, commish are just
as guilty as the MLBPA.
Everybody benefitted from the “Chicks love the long ball” philosophy after the strike.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 10:31 AM CST up reply actions
I pretty much agree with everything you said
And the double standard between the NFL and MLB annoys me to no end…
rangers
my thoughts – with a-rod’s involvement, the rangers are the face of the steroids scandal.
juan, palmeiro, canseco, a-rod, ken caminiti (DIED – although he wasn’t really a ranger at the height of his use), pudge, sosa (not a ranger at height of use)
others???
The MLBPA would probably be much
better off outing every other name on the list from 2003.
Very unfair because those tests were confidential but if all those names came out at once, the story would begin to circle the drain AND every player from that time who was innocent would be cleared.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
Need to just out all the players that fans love that used:
Jeter, Cal Ripken Jr., Big Papi, Thome… then maybe everyone can get over it
Jeter - Suspicious but I doubt it
Ripken Jr. – don’t think so
Papi – roids are dripping out of his eyes & ears.
Thome – Hell yes.
———————————
Luis Gonzales – 57 HR’s in 2001 was a little much doncha think?
ManRam – Ever see what he used to look like in the late 90’s?
Piazza – Anybody really surprised he’s out of baseball when testing was ramped up?
Bagwell – Look hard at the SDO/Houston connection (Finley, Bagwell, Biggio, Gonzales, Caminiti)
Hafner – You betcha
Bat Flip – Yes.
Chavez – body breaking down a bad sign.
Soriano – Looks like a librarian in person but the back of his forearms look like twisted steel wires are inside.
Rich Aurilla – 37 HR’s!? Rich Aurilla!?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
MY
Puts on 25 pounds, hits .331/.385/.513 takes off 25 pounds (because he wants to “play a better shortstop”) and hits .315/.366/.418
Get off my lawn.
Cannot argue
with suspicious stats, including the FOTF.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
...and
doesn’t actually end up “playing a better shortsop.”
"If you have a problem with me, you're probably a doucher."
by red shoe ranger on Feb 10, 2009 5:30 PM CST up reply actions
Jeter, Ripken
I would have put money down 3 years ago that ARod hadn’t used. His skill was so much higher than everyone else’s on the field, that if anyone could get away with not needing to use them, he could.
When I see the ARod’s of the game using, it means that probably everyone was. Everyone including the Big Hurt, Griffey, and John Koronka.
JB- Part of the reason
baseball is the Great Game is that numbers don’t lie and ARod’s stats confirm that he’s probably been on some kind of PED his entire career.
Unless we begin to see a fairly steep decline in production, he’s still on something.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 11:29 AM CST up reply actions
So that means that
every single player who was good has got to be on some form of PEDs. You don’t think Cal Ripken’s consecutive games played streak could have been aided by PEDs that kept him staying healthy and at 100%? By the logic you’re using on A-Rod, I don’t see why Ripken would be any different.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
No, dipshit
every single player who was good does not have to be on PEDs.
Ripken started a slow decline after he was 30 years old and there’s nothing in his body of work on the field that makes me think he ever used steroids.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 11:45 AM CST up reply actions
Come on Josey...
Name calling was not necessary here.
t ball on MY - "hate the contract, don't hate the player"
Do you agree or disagree
That some steroids help players recover faster and push their body past their natural limits?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
I don't think Cal Ripken Jr.'s
stats insinuate that he used PEDs in his career.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 12:11 PM CST up reply actions
That wasn't the question
Do you agree or disagree
That some steroids help players recover faster and push their body past their natural limits?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
I agree that numbers don't lie
and that the numbers some of these guys have put up are somewhat indicting. However, my point is that
Also, this statement is somewhat self-contradictory:
ARod’s stats confirm that he’s probably been
Sadly, there is no way anything can be confirmed / disproved in this case, so we are stuck in hypotheticals. Now, I believe that strong circumstantial evidence is sufficient to shape perception of guilt. But proof, in the strictest sense of the word, will always be elusive for most of these guys.
sorry
I meant to say “my point is that all those ‘great’ players you mention were probably on them as well”
I'm not looking to convict ARod and send him to prison.
I’m trying to figure out whether or not he used some kind of PED thru most if not all of his career.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions
yeah
i don’t see how you look at arod’s stats and think he was ever on steroids. tryin to draw conclusions after the fact is just hindsight. fact is, he has been consistently good for a really long time, through many different body types
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
There's a big difference
between making sacrifices and compromises in your life, and breaking the law. The definition of dedication to being the the best, is not letting anything get in the way of your work toward that goal. If you can’t see that cheating and breaking the law could be counter productive to that goal, then you aren’t the best because you’re not smart enough.
"Never go with a hippie to a second location."
it wasn't so counterproductive
and there are probably a lot of people that roided, had great seasons, and got away with it.
and was this breaking the law?
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
Yes, taking a prescription drug
without a prescription is breaking the law.
"Never go with a hippie to a second location."
i don't think that is true
taking a prescription drug without a prescription. is it
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
And also, would you say
A-rod regrets taking the roids now? Wishes he hadn’t done it. Feels he would be better off if he hadn’t? Sure, you have to get caught, and a lot don’t, but if you do you’re sunk.
"Never go with a hippie to a second location."
i think he's so upset he's using 100's to wipe away his tears
and i think he’s more upset that anonymous testing got leaked – because before that (assuming he stopped taking steroids in NY), he was going to get off completely.
and that has nothing to do with your point.
and you’re also naive to think (as adam points out) that people of every generation didn’t cheat in some form.
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
if you're point is, i should just
accept it and say it’s ok, just shut up about it …..then we just disagree.
"Never go with a hippie to a second location."
ah yes the law
because if there is one group of people we can all agree are infallible its politicians.
Hear hear.
If you need any proof, look no further than the SEXY CHEERLEADING scourge that nearly brought our mighty nation to its knees, if not for a small, brave band of political fireplugs, ever vigilantly watchdogging our fragile psyches.
I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.
...at the time, I wasn’t being truthful with myself. How could I be truthful with Katie Couric or CBS?
by Brian Thomas on Feb 10, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions
What is disappointing is that Arod only came “kinda” clean. Never used the words “I lied” or the word “steroid”. He isn’t contrite. If he was contrite he wouldn’t have blamed the atmosphere in Arlington or “the heat”. He made it clear that when he played in a “real” baseball town, NY, he didn’t do anything wrong.
This has nothing to do with football, this is baseball. Let football fix it’s own mess. Linking the two as to somehow absolve baseball is disingenuous. Baseball has never come clean about this issue any more than Arod did. Admissions only come attached with cryptic references and leaked in parts and pieces. This is a mess.
what
he said(first paragraph).
"If you have a problem with me, you're probably a doucher."
by red shoe ranger on Feb 10, 2009 5:34 PM CST up reply actions
The MLB/NFL disparity is truly jarring.
MLB gets continually hammered for steroids, but the NFL is getting off scot free. Even with the Merriman situation…how much did we hear about it after the fact? And now, we’re going to be inundated with A-Rod stuff for the next six months.
The fact is that we’ve just got to accept it as a part of life. Bonds gets into the Hall because he is the greatest power hitter of all time. Let Raffy in, because the guy had an amazing career. McGwire was borderline to begin with.
The time for sanctimonious, holier-than-thou baseball is over.
Oh, and one more thing:
Realistically, there’s no one in baseball from the last 25 years who can be said to be 100%, no question, without a doubt, clean…
My 2009 New Years Resolution: Quit feeding the trolls.
he's #1 on my list for doing roids
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
Exactly
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
wait so
raffy definitely belongs in the hall but mcgwire is only a borderline candidate? thats a pretty ridiculous appraisal of their respective careers.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Feb 10, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
IMO, Raffy definitely belongs in the Hall more so than McGwire
but I also wouldn’t go out and say that McGwire is borderline. He was one of the best hitters in the league just about each year he played. The only reason I think Raffy is more deserving is because of the defense plus staying healthy more and reach that 3000 hit milestone.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
along with getting caught using steroids
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
That is such a non-factor in my mind
when judging what a player did in the careers. It might change how I feel about them, but steroids shouldn’t be entering conversations about what a player was able to do on the field and certainly not players from the past 20 years or so.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
If steroids helped him do what he did on the field then i think its a very valid factor
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Everyone was doing steroids
Everyone always looks only at hitters but the pitchers were doing it too. On top of that, there were many players taking steroids who never amounted to anything. Until there is conclusive proof on who exactly has taken steroids, during what time span they have taken steroids, and exactly what effect on their natural talent it had, I’m not going to use steroids to discredit someone’s on the field accomplishments.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Getting caught using steroids AFTER they were banned is a factor to me.
Not that I’d keep Raffy out, but I think it actually gives that argument some small measure of merit that it doesn’t have otherwise.
Except there is that extremely shady timing of that whole incident
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Meh...
I wouldn’t be surprised if he used too.
The only guy that I would guess in the last 25 years that was 100% clean would be Tony Gwynn.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
actually
he got busted for Whataburger grease in his blood stream….
"If you have a problem with me, you're probably a doucher."
by red shoe ranger on Feb 10, 2009 5:37 PM CST up reply actions
Is that based on anything in particular?
Is it possible he is a true outlier, even just based on the rareness of that kind of longevity?
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 10, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions
Very good point
Especially because it would make Josey tear his eyes out if he read it.
Yeah. Spies. They're little guys with beady eyes and long fingernails. They plant bugs that can pick up the hush of a man's heartbeat - or the whisper of a falling hair.
I wouldn't be completely shocked if Nolan used
but he was always on the vanguard of lifting weights and doing what it took to stay properly conditioned so I highly doubt it.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
I know it's a mistake to talk to you. . .
But how does lifting weights make it unlikely someone used steroids? A man who modeled his intense workout regimines after Ryan, Roger Clemens, used. His workout routines are legendary.
Do you realize how much of a workout freak Bonds and A-Rod were?
I don't believe Nolan used roids
because it wasn’t something typically done by pitchers or players in 70’s or 80s.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 10:15 PM CST up reply actions
and you know this because...
you were a MLB player in the 70s and 80s?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Feb 10, 2009 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
Do you remember many 37 year olds that hit 73 HRs
in the 70s or 80s?
Conventional wisdom at the time was that baseball players didn’t need to do weights because they’d bulk up and I don’t remember anybody outside of Brian Downing in the late 70s who I’m suspicious of using.
Nolan started lifting weights without telling the team.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 11:03 PM CST up reply actions
See, you talk to Josey and he responds with posts like this.
Either logic fails him, or he does it on purpose. Either way, not worth responding to him.
philkid, do you know of other examples of players
from the 70s or 80s that you suspect used steroids besides Downing & Ryan?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 11:07 PM CST up reply actions
How about players who suddenly strike out 300 hitters for the first time in 12 years.
In fewer innings than he tended to pitch at the age of 42 in a year when steroids were prevalent on a team where steroids were prevalent to begin maybe the best stretch of his career?
So then I take it you disagree that
some steroids help players recover faster and push their body past their natural limits
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
If you devised a way to prove if a player used or not.
And then told me to put money on every player in the last twenty years: yes or no. . .
Nolan would be one of the first people I’d bet “yes” on.
Fans just need to face
the fact that Bonds, A-Rod and Clemens are not as good as Ruth, Mays and Bob Gibson. Maybe they could have been, but we’ll never know because they cheated.
"Never go with a hippie to a second location."
of course they were as good
the numbers don’t lie. are we supposed to penalize arod for having access to vaccines and advanced painkillers (cortisone shots)?
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
a cortisone shot
is prescribed by a doctor to help with healing and inflamation. It is not banned by MLB and is not a long term performance enhancer.
"Never go with a hippie to a second location."
babe ruth didn't have them but hank aaron did
(or aaron had access to some medical marvel that ruth didn’t). I guess we should discount aaron’s record?
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
No way. I've never heard
anything about Aaron cheating. I would, personally, rank Ruth as a better overall player, but Aaron is one of the all time greats, no doubt about it. My point is, compare Barry Bonds and Aaron and you’re not comparing apples to apples, you don’t know where he belongs with the all time greats because he cheated.
"Never go with a hippie to a second location."
Ruth
He was a drunk during the Prohibition era. Therefore, he broke the law and was using a mood-altering substance. He therefore is not as good.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Well the steroids A-Rod took
are supposed to make him look better and not actually give him any more power. Is that really a performance enhancer?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
re: "No way. I've never heard anything about Aaron cheating.'
Do you consider amphetamines cheating?
I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.
...at the time, I wasn’t being truthful with myself. How could I be truthful with Katie Couric or CBS?
by Brian Thomas on Feb 10, 2009 1:05 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, illegal ones. Did Aaron take those?
If so i would question his achievements, although i don’t think stimulants effect performance in the same way steroids do, but yes…. and i’d be bummed to hear that.
"Never go with a hippie to a second location."
They were very prevalent back then
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 10, 2009 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
and were VERY prevalent until recently
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Feb 10, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
So do we give a pass to players from the 50s, 60s, 70's
that used greenies?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
Ruth played during segregation
I’m guessing if the playing pool during Ruth’s years included black players and increased the total talent pool, Ruth’s numbers wouldn’t be as good.
I need to think something lasts forever, and it might as well be that state of being that is a game; it might as well be that, in a green field, in the sun.
Exactly
There is no “pure” era in baseball history, and since the drugs are always one step ahead of the testing, there likely never will be.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
this is the only
relevant point regarding this whole situation. We are currently in the HGH era….until they figure out how to test for that and by then players will have moved on to elephant semen.
"If you have a problem with me, you're probably a doucher."
by red shoe ranger on Feb 10, 2009 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
well
it’s still hard to say who was better, but they certainly don’t get discounted
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
OT -
Pecota sees another bad season for the Rangers but they also think Billy Beane’s A’s win the AL West.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
I'll be totally shocked
if the Angels only win 79 games. You’ll have to back pedal a bit on your man love for Arte Moreno.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 10, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
Why would I back off on my feelings towards Moreno
if the Angels win 79 games?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions
Because
he does what it takes to win, according to you. If he won 79 games he wouldn’t be winning. Check the standings, right?
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 10, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
Diggler,
How many division titles have the Angels won since Moreno became their owner?
What’s happened to their payroll since Moreno took over?
What’s happened to the Angels attendance since Moreno took over?
They still have the best pitching in the AL West, Vlad is in a contract year and if I recall, they were voted best minor league system in MLB back in 2005.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 12:41 PM CST up reply actions
You've said many times
the only thing that matters is the major league standings. If the Angels win 79 games, especially because of all the things you mentioned, Arte Moreno is a failure.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 10, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
If the Angels win 79 games this year
I will not consider Arte Moreno to be a failure as an owner.
I don’t recall talking too much about Moreno in here (most of it was done over at Jamey’s place) – what’s your name over there?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions
heh
don’t worry about that, not important. Carry on.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 10, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
I'm sure all of this Tom Hicks bashing
is making you tense.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
Not really
he’s a douche. What’s your point?
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 10, 2009 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
The Angels winning only 79 games
The Angels are in mid-late part of their contention curve, it looks like. They were ranked in the top handful of minor league systems in the early part of this decade, and some of those players have been responsible for their success lately. But they’re coming back to the pack now, just as their farm system’s rankings are dropping. In my opinion, Moreno and their management weren’t quite aggressive enough in a couple of those years in adding a player or two to finish the team, particularly bats.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
And if the Angels get Dunn or Abreu
a lot of their problems are solved.
They still have, without doubt, the best pitching in the AL West and while I see them coming back to the pack, they should still win 85+ games.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
This year
if they add a bat like that, yes, they should be fine. I don’t understand why they haven’t yet, there are definitely some bargains out there. Things don’t look as bright for 2010 and forward, but they have time to remedy that.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Yeah, coming back to the pack makes sense
I just still think 79 games is low for those guys. I’ll be very surprised if 82 games is good enough to win the AL West.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 10, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
It's also fairly common to see a phenomena
with teams that win 85+ games a year for 4-5 years in a row where a sense of urgency seems to take over and a team breaks thru their window of opportunity.
Maybe a prized rookie comes up (Lynn & Rice), a big trade is made (Jim Wynn, Rollie Fingers, Robby Alomar), a free agent is signed or a new manager is hired.
Early 70s Dodgers went to the WS in ‘74.
Late 60s / early 70’s Red Sox went to WS in 1975.
Late 70s / early 80’s Brewers went to WS in 1982
Late 70s / early 80s Orioles went and won WS in ‘83
Late 80s / early 90s BJs went and won WS in 92 & 93
00’s Cardinals went to and won WS in 2006
00’s Phillies went to and won WS in 2008.
The Angels have won 4 of the last 5 AL West races and won between 89-100 games in those years. They’re not really old but they’re not really young either. I think this is still a dangerous team, especially if they get another bat.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
I expect them to win more
but I won’t be shocked if they only win 79. I wouldn’t be shocked if none of the teams in the west are over .500.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
i think they are better than 79 wins
if you want to nitpick semantics, maybe it wouldn’t be “shocking” but more “surprising at this point”
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 10, 2009 8:09 PM CST up reply actions
How much better?
I mean, like, anyone who thinks the Angels are an 85+ win team is going to shock me a bit without some sort of reliable statistical projection behind it.
i'm not a stat freak like you
but I’d be surprised if they are less than a .500 team
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 10, 2009 10:25 PM CST up reply actions
85 wins or so
I don’t understand why you think it is so interesting that I’d be surprised if they are under .500
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 10, 2009 11:22 PM CST up reply actions
That's not a whole lot over .500.
You’d really be shocked just by 5 wins fewer than the projection you’d set?
Again, nitpick semantics if you want
Read above — it might be more appropriate to say “surprised.” Yes, I would be surprised to see them fall below .500
This is a riveting conversation, isn’t it?
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 11, 2009 7:09 AM CST up reply actions
why do you see the Angels falling back that far, philkid
and what team in baseball history would they be most similar to that you remember?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 10:33 PM CST up reply actions
Angels & Abreu talks getting serious
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3898085
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
The first team I'd consider very similar would be the 2007 Mariners.
But I’m going to stop talking to you.
The 2007 Mariners?
Oh my.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 11:09 PM CST up reply actions
In case anybody is wondering
the 2004 NY Yankees won 101 games but their Pythagorean numbers thought they should have won 89 games.
In 2005 the Yankees won 95 games.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 11:34 PM CST up reply actions
And the Yankees Pythagorean W/L
total in 2005 should have been 90-72 but they were 5 games ahead of that pace. For several years in a row the pendulum didn’t swing the other way and the Yankees finished anywhere from 4-12 games ahead of their projected win total. I’m a big believer in the pendulum eventually swinging the other way but it’s not necessarily going to happen in 2009.
The Angels still have by far the best pitching in the AL West. They have a pedigree of winning, a good and respected manager, they aren’t that old and I wouldn’t dismiss their sense of urgency. On top of all that, they get 57 games v. the A’s, M’s and Rangers.
Projecting the Angels, I use a baseline of 85 wins.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
agree
even with the football thing (i was probably a bit naive on this when i was younger). it’s just a shame that these morons (madden especially) would say something as asinine as he did.
It’s just crazy that the same people who voted for Merriman THIRD IN THE MVP AP voting (the year he tested positive) are some of the same people who won’t vote for Arod for HOF.
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
"AMMIITAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABHH!!!"
PEDs
People are talking about PED makers like they’re Colombia. Owners have the cash to outpace them. It’s lazy to think they’re “here to stay!”
And it’s just a red herring to fault owners for looking the other way, at least until after the next CBA. They’re going to want testing, even if it’s just a PR move. And that’s just some administrative work anyway. The players’ union isn’t in great shape after this leak, but I don’t know if they’d argue anyway.
After you get that PEDs aren’t the new world order, you can actually look at Alex’s choices. It’s not knee jerk…most players in the Hall didn’t take PEDs. Players are getting suspended for drugs right now.
Comparing players in baseball isn’t supposed to be apples and oranges. People, sabermatricians for example, like the sport because the numbers are real.
And since the league isn’t low-budget (any season ticket holders on LSB, by the way?) it’d be nice to see it return to normalcy, without PEDs.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 10, 2009 11:10 AM CST reply actions
"the numbers are real"
um, sorry, but no.
"If you have a problem with me, you're probably a doucher."
by red shoe ranger on Feb 10, 2009 5:45 PM CST up reply actions
What’s your take on sabermetrics?
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 10, 2009 9:12 PM CST up reply actions
Im
not arguing the usefulness of sabermetrics. Simply pointing out that comparing numers from one era to another is ALWAYS apples and oranges due to differences in nutrition, diet, weight training, improved healthcare, Tommy John surgery, etc etc.
I would say a pitcher coming up today has a huge leg up on someone that came up in the 40’s.
and while a player today should be in a million times better shape than an earlier generation player the way the game is played is different(bullpens, closers, etc) so a starting pitcher will most likely never have a chance to break certain records due to not pitching the same # of innings as the old guys.
To summarize, I like sabermetrics and find the whole industry to be more than usefeful and justified but still find it impossible to truly compare a player from one era to another, even without PED’s.
"If you have a problem with me, you're probably a doucher."
by red shoe ranger on Feb 11, 2009 5:20 AM CST up reply actions
OT. JD's going to be on with Norm in a minute.
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
well darn... he said JD might be on tomorrow instead.
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
by Kinslerhomer on Feb 10, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
Ughhh, and now we get
holier-than-thou Chad Allen. That guy proved he was a fraud when he was here, why dig him up now?
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Baseball is demonized
because they didn’t have any testing, whereas the NFL did.
Now, obviously HGH is an issue that will only be resolved by blood testing, but I’m hoping that the players’ union will eventually relent and allow it because the integrity of the game IS important.
It is completely ridiculous that players who toil in the minor leagues by staying clean and not doing anything illegal are being kept there by dirty, cheating players who are breaking the law. If I were one of those guys, I would want to out each and every one of them.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
HGH testing was said to be around the corner
when Ronnie was Prez.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Dubya is the first prez I
remember bringing up the need to get steroids out of professional sports.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
The first player I can ever remember having suspicions about
was Brian Downing.
Spare, spare, spare catcher at the end of his career rope resurrects his career, comes back one spring looking like Christopher Reeve and becomes a great hitter.
Nolan has intimated that he saw a player with the Angels that he thought used and I’ve always thought that player was Downing.
Can’t recall any other players from the early to mid 80s that I suspected but then the Bash Bros hit Oakland in ’88 and baseball changed. Following the Bash Bros were the Phillies in ’93.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
and thank god for that
because if there’s one thing I need right now it isn’t a solvent bank or a job it is the security of knowing pro baseball players can only buy some of the stuff at GNC and not others.
Maybe that should read that Dubya was the first
to realize there might be political points to be gained for saying that.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Kinda like Obama
suggesting at least 4 or 5 times during the prez campaign that we need a playoff system in college football?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
I hope
you feel the same sympathies for the honest small business’ who limit their income potential due to their desire to maintain their integrity and inability to lie to or deceive customers.
as well as the would be politicians and presidents who are too honest and sincere to ever succeed in the political arena.
or the youth directors of churches whom will never get to lead the congregation because they aren’t willing to kiss the ass of the portion of the congregation that “pays the bills”.
et al, ad infinitum, and so on….
"If you have a problem with me, you're probably a doucher."
by red shoe ranger on Feb 10, 2009 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
This is me, playing a tiny violin
I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.
...at the time, I wasn’t being truthful with myself. How could I be truthful with Katie Couric or CBS?
by Brian Thomas on Feb 11, 2009 8:52 AM CST up reply actions
HOF
Jayson Stark had a great quote about A-Rod, Bonds, et. al. not getting into the Hall of Fame because of all this…
“It’s a museum – not the Vatican.”
I think that’s spot on.
The Poster Formally Known As: UrbanDad
"Listen to Ted. Trust him. If he cuts you off, switch gears and go with it." -- Shroomer
Meh.
At this point, I really don’t care.
The one thing I will note is that ARod’s story about only using during his Rangers years is a bunch of crap. As good as he was in Texas, he had better years in both Seattle and New York than his best year in Texas. I find it hard to believe that his offensive were only enhanced by roids in our little hitter friendly park and not in the cavernous confines of Safeco or Yankee Stadium.
he blamed it on the summer
i guess by lying about it, he insulates himself from NY scrutiny and scrutiny for the justification of the big contract.
still…
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
Pitchers & Catchers report on Saturday
Every one of them can show up looking like Sasquatch and I wouldn’t give a damn.
I’m ready for baseball.
by robert_d_wilfong on Feb 10, 2009 11:48 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
odds
What are the odds of MY reporting with the pitchers and catchers? Afterall, he does need to learn a new position.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Isn't he going to be off at the WBC?
Yeah. Spies. They're little guys with beady eyes and long fingernails. They plant bugs that can pick up the hush of a man's heartbeat - or the whisper of a falling hair.
Why don't owners just put a clause in every contract that if you
get caught using PEDs, the contract can become voidable?
I’m guessing the union would never agree to that. Plus, I think we’d see owners that would be slipping PEDs into some of the crappy contracts’ milkshakes.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
It wouldn't surprise me
if that happens, but I think the union would fight it (and agents, too) using false positives or mixed up tests as an excuse. I don’t see that happening, and if a serious testing regimen is strengthened, it’s not really necessary. The player is already risks long suspensions.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
A third party needs to be involved in testing
and owners, players and the union should have no idea when or how often players are going to be tested.
If you get caught using a PED on the first offense, suspend a player for 365 days. Second offense, lifetime ban.
Also, all tests are kept for further testing to eventually catch those players with designer steroids that cannot currently be detected.
That’s if you really want PEDs out of the game.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
It is already a 3rd party contract.
Did anyone hear Mike Bacsik talk about this a few weeks ago? He said the guy called him in the evening (maybe around 8pm) said “I need to test you tonight or at 8am tomorrow.” When Bacsik was peeing the next morning, the tester told him he had 6 other MLB players to tests that day.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Pitching
The Rangers need to use this as evidence to prove that RBiA is NOT a hitters park. Someone needs to readjust all of our “park effects” in the stat sheets.
Maybe we can get some free agent pitching to come here if they don’t think the ballpark is a hitters paradise… It’s a roided hitters paradise, not a hitters paradise.
by Oracle Galvez on Feb 10, 2009 12:37 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
My solution to the problem
Its been suggested before, but there needs to be a short amnesty window where players, both active and retired, can fess up.
If the whole thing is orchestrated by the baseball writers association and agreed by owners and MLBPA, with all these big questions (i.e., Hall of Fame) and future contracts discussed.
1. Players have a 2 month period (December 2009 -January 2010) to acknowledge any and all steroids use in their past career. Must err on the side of inclusiveness, you can’t say “I tried it once” when you took them for three seasons.
2. Players who confess are granted “amnesty” for all past offenses. This amnesty will be with regard to any “repeat offender” violations with regard to MLB rules (even if the offenses were since the penalties started).
3. The HOF and its voters (at least a critical mass of them) agree to not use admission of steroid use as a membership criteria. They can downweight statistics within reason how they see fit (does 3000 hits mean what it used to?) but they agree in principal to not use the admission of steroids use as a litmus test for voting.
4. Owners agree to not hold actual admission against people in personnel decisions, though as with HOF voters, they can use admission of past offenses as a rational excuse to downweight performance in valuation.
4. Any players who do NOT admit previous steroids use, and are subsequently revealed to have used them by any convincing means (testimony in courts, etc) can have their HOF credentials tarnished by the failure to confess.
5. Any players going forward who are caught will have steroids as a black mark.
There is a lot of honor system going on here, but I think that we’re at the point where that is necessary.
Good thoughts, JB
And then – (liberal catch phrase alert, vomit blood) we could “let the healing begin.”
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 10, 2009 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
Good idea.
However, I think removal from the HOF would be mandatory, if you didn’t fess up and where later proven to ba a user.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
God I'm so Sick and Tired of Steroids
I know you have to write about it and I’m not complaining about that. I just wish the stories would disappear. Yeah I’d rather them not use but I don’t feel that strongly about it.
The only thing I have to say about your article today is the “25 years” mark. It goes back a lot farther than that; the drugs just weren’t as sophisticated and probably not as effective.
And I agree with you that it’s a problem in other sports as well but people ignore that. If you watch how giant basketball players come back so quickly from injuries, how much heavier and quicker offensive and defensive lines are in football compared to what they used to be, and how fucking insane hockey players are, you know most of them are on something, too.
Steroid Timeline:
1889 A French physiologist Charles Brown-Sequard markets a ‘rejuvinating elixir’, which is a liquid extract made from the testicles of guinea pigs and dogs. This is the first known product containing testosterone.
1935 Testosterone, is first synthesized by Butenandt and Ruzicka: who earn a Nobel Prize in chemistry for the accomplishment.
World War II It is believed that German soldiers are given testosterone to increase their performance on the battlefield.
1952 The Russian Olympic team performs extremely well at its first games in Helsinki. Accusations are made of steroid use, especially by the Soviet wrestling team.
1953 The first anabolic steroid, ‘19-nortestosterone’, is synthesized: it has three to five times the muscle building effects of natural testosterone.
1954 At the world weightlifting championships in Vienna, a Soviet Union coach informs U.S. coach Dr. John Ziegler, that the Soviet team was using testosterone. On returning home, Dr. Ziegler began using testosterone with his weightlifters.
1958 Dr. Zeigler develops Dianabol and introduces it to US Olympic Weight Lifting Team.
1963 Roy Alvin serves breakfast with Dianabol to San Diego Chargers line men.
1963 -1968 The use of steroids spreads as many Olympic Track and Field Athletes prepare for 1968.
1975 The use of steroids in the Olympics banned by the International Olympic Committee.
1981 The "Food, Drug & Cosmetic Act" is passed: steroids must now be prescribed by physician, for medical use only.
1980s The black-market production and sale of steroids thrives.
1984 The first reported case of a bodybuilder contracting aids after sharing a needle for steroid use.
1988 Congress amends the "Food, Drug & Cosmetic Act" (a.k.a. Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988): setting criminal penalties for non-authorized distribution (black-market trafficking) of steroids
Hmmm, who lost their hair during an epic home run chase?
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Maybe Babe Ruth was juicing
with liquid extract from the testicles of guinea pigs and dogs. You can’t rule it out.
Get off my lawn.
Too bad he retired
the same year testosterone was synthesized. He may have been even better.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
100% pure badger milk!
Chasing guinea pig balls to get the coke dreams away. It’s what my dad always told me!
1950- 1st American test subject
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
Astros of the early 90s
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
MLB, see all.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
OT. Blue Jay's acquire Matt F'ing Bush:
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
Jays*
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
by Kinslerhomer on Feb 10, 2009 2:56 PM CST up reply actions
Motherfuck East County
I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.
...at the time, I wasn’t being truthful with myself. How could I be truthful with Katie Couric or CBS?
by Brian Thomas on Feb 10, 2009 3:08 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well written, Adam.
I’m so sick of the story, though, I don’t have the urge to write anything.
The Hall of Fame discussion happened at BtB and I wrote out my thoughts there.
why is it
that illegal immigrants, and good ol’ americans before them, can work 12 hour days, day after day, in the Texas heat, but poor wittle baseball players cant handle a three hour game where they spend the majority of those three hours standing still in the field or sitting on the bench?
Baseball requires the least physical exertion of the big 4 sports. and less than Tennis, and Nascar. In fact, a golfer probably burns more calories during the course of a round of golf.
I know, I know, baseball is played almost every day…..
"If you have a problem with me, you're probably a doucher."
by red shoe ranger on Feb 10, 2009 6:00 PM CST reply actions
So, the Nolan Ryan conversation just came up at Baseball Fever.
One of those old guys who forms support based on preconceived notions, loves old players and who romanticizes The Game listed Ryan among the players he’d be shocked to find out used steroids.
And now that a couple of us have said there’s every reason to suspect Ryan and little reason not to, it’s getting interesting. It’s amazing how untouchable Nolan Ryan is.
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