Joe Posnanski is awesome
by Adam J. Morris on Feb 11, 2009 2:27 PM CST
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PrintJoe Posnanski has a great piece up about the "character" clause vis-a-vis the Hall of Fame and its application in the Steroid Era. A couple of key excerpts:
Meanwhile, the Hall of Fame is filled with people who admitted to using drugs (Paul Molitor, Ferguson Jenkins, etc.), who willingly cheated (Gaylord Perry threw spitballs, Don Sutton and Whitey Ford cut baseballs, players undoubtedly corked bats), who enthusiastically used illegal performance-enhancers (that would be anyone who ever popped an amphetamine to get a boost, and it's likely that represents a high percentage of Hall of Famers) and so on. It's all a matter of degree. And it's all how you look at it.
* * *
I would ask the Hall of Fame to change the clause. I think the clause should have been changed a long time ago; it makes me queasy to think about sportswriters (or anyone else) trying to judge a man's character. I always come back to what Buck O'Neil -- the Negro Leagues player, manager, scout and spokesman -- said when people asked him how he could vote Enos Slaughter into the Hall of Fame. Slaughter was a noted racist during his playing days. Buck said you can't know what's in a man's heart.
"Could he play or couldn't he play?" he asked. "That's what matters."
* * *
Point is: It's the Baseball Hall of Fame. That's all. Are people coming to visit the Baseball Hall of Fame without some of the greatest players of the last 20 years? Will people still view it seriously? I sort of doubt it. Baseball has been a messy game for more than 100 years. In the years before Jackie Robinson, there were no black players. Players caroused and gambled and boozed. Many cheated to get ahead. Many took drugs. There have been beanballs and stolen signals and thrown bats. There have been thugs and racists and liars and everything else. And, yes, there have been steroid users, too.
The Hall of Fame voters can try to sort through that jumble and pull out only the sportsmen with integrity and character. We can try. But we will fail.
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Buck O' Neil was the man
Whatever he says is more often insightful than not. He may have done more selfless things for baseball players than the MLBPA has ever done.
I need to think something lasts forever, and it might as well be that state of being that is a game; it might as well be that, in a green field, in the sun.
He nailed
At’a boy Joe. The negro league players always seem so wise/witty for the most part. Anytime a history of the negro league comes on where there are interviews with players and the like, I have to watch. He could hit ya two homeruns before he shaved in the morning. That is just greatness!
Integrity vs. technology
If PEDs have been in the game so long, why is it just the last few years they’re getting play? Not a rhetorical question.
Is it Bonds breaking the HR record, and because people loved the McGuire/Sosa thing?
When the Hall gets mentioned in connection with PEDs, it’s not an “integrity” issue. Do people think the Hall doesn’t contain any assholes?
Go Strangers.
It's always been the debate
The problems are the veterans committee and BWAA. The BWAA use their position to tell us who is moral and who is not to fill out their column inches. The veterans then use their position to say what they did wasn’t as bad as steroids. It’s an effed up system full opinionated jackasses.
I need to think something lasts forever, and it might as well be that state of being that is a game; it might as well be that, in a green field, in the sun.
by WyoRanger on Feb 11, 2009 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think a hated player breaking hallowed records is any small part of the increased attention.
Bonds has always been hated, and I think people salivated at the opportunity to have a “legitimate” reason to rip him down.
Not that I think that’s all of it, but I do think it’s a big part.
After reading that....
I agree, he is awesome.
Adam J. Morris - "Murphy isn't that good. He is overrated by Rangers fans."
....How dare you, sir!! Take it back!!
Very well said...
and why I believe Pete Rose should be in the HOF.
If you start keeping guys out of the HOF who have some kind of character flaw or did something “wrong” the list will get very short very quick.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
The difference is
that Rose broke a rule that has been posted on all the clubhouse walls for almost a century.
A lot of the steroid users didn’t break any rules of baseball.
Get off my lawn.
Rose broke the rules but no laws....
Steroid users have (and still are) broke the laws but no rules. If we are putting rules above laws then we are in a strange place.
If you want some slack, bring your own rope.
by rangerfaninva on Feb 11, 2009 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Rules should be above laws for an organization.
They set the rules, they probably care about the rules.
Laws can be arbitrary and or irrelevent to an organization.
http://www.lawguru.com/weird/part01.html
I wouldn’t be willing to boot a player just because he broke a law. There are a lot of silly laws on the books.
Get off my lawn.
speeding is breaking the law
you have to have some provision (although usually understood) that says that you can boot a player for breaking the law and you probably have to say what those laws are.
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
We have to kick a lot of players
who have played since amphetamines became illegal in the 60s. Any tax cheats too.
Get off my lawn.
my point isn't that we should punish players for breaking the law
I’m just tired of hearing players justifying steroid use because it wasn’t “banned by baseball.” Not sure if Rose ever bet on his team to lose, haven’t cared enough to look into the facts. But betting on your team to win (if that is all he did) seems far less egregious than using steroids, hgh, amphetamines to give you an edge. My whole take on the steroids issue is that it is/was about money. Have a big year, get the big contract and resort to your normal human ways.
If you want some slack, bring your own rope.
by rangerfaninva on Feb 11, 2009 4:06 PM CST up reply actions
this isn't a "what has a bigger effect" debate
this is a cold hard rule. You bet on baseball, you get kicked out of baseball. They had problems with it so much so that they put it in every clubhouse lockerroom. This is the only rule that they really care about in terms of off field behavior.
There are a myriad of reasons for enforcing it for betting on your teams to win. You probably don’t try as hard when you aren’t betting – as in you don’t pull pitchers, don’t put in a closer, maybe pull a starter quicker. But that’s not the point. There was a rule – for whatever reason – and he broke it.
There was no similar rule known to baseball players about steroids.
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
Has nothing to do
with what seems less egregious to you or what you think about it.
The only thing that is important is rule 21 (d)
(d) BETTING ON BALL GAMES. Any player, umpire, or club official or
employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in
connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared
ineligible for one year.
Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall
bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which
the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.
Doesn’t say anything about betting to win.
Get off my lawn.
rose broke a rule and he knew what the consequence was.
i don’t see any wiggle room there.
steroids – a shit ton of wiggle room
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
Exactly
In his seminal “12 Minutes In Hell With Colin Cowherd”, Ken Tremendous summed up perfectly why Pete Rose shouldn’t be in the Hall:
Pete Rose isn’t in the HOF because he bet on baseball, which, as is posted in every single MLB locker room, is the one thing you can do that will absolutely ban you from baseball for life.
Keith Law: (1:45 PM ET ) I think Michael Young should shut his mouth and move to third base.
Kevin Sherrington needs to read that.
It is absolutely ridiculous to take umbrage about steroids and to just ignore Ruth not having to play against some of the better ball players that every played the game, but were stuck in the Negro Leagues. Put these guys in the HOF, but the steroid story needs to be told in the HOF too. It’s part of the history of the game.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I don't really understand
how you can have it both ways…
Tell “the steroid story” (not sure what that means) and also frown on it.
Being as above-board as Posnanski is pretending to be about baseball players means accepting PEDs and just going back to watching those pretty home runs.
I don’t know, I’m not there yet. It might be because it’s the offseason.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 11, 2009 3:07 PM CST up reply actions
I think what he's saying is...
that you can induct someone into the Hall of Fame and also pay attention to that person’s character flaws.
Frankly, I think this is exactly what Major League Baseball needs to do. If you want to educate people, you can’t pretend like something never happened.
Well, not really
The whole Joe piece is to expose the flaws of “character”-type evaluations.
Which seriously sounds great. Character seems pretty beside the point.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 11, 2009 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry, should've defined my pronouns.
By “he”, I meant t ball, not JoePo.
For the record, I agree that the HoF should be about baseball accomplishments.
You are correct
in what I mean. These guys belong in the HOF, McGwire, Sosa, etc. but you don’t try to whitewash the controversy that surrounds their stats. And you certainly don’t try to pretend that their particular brand of cheating was any better or worse than corking a bat or doctoring a baseball. And you don’t pretend that white guys who played pre-integration didn’t receive an unfair advantage in terms of the level of competition.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
cheating being better or worse
PEDs is different than a corked bat or doctored baseball. Those are primitive, pretty finite techniques.
Barry Bonds hit 73 homers in one year. People are throwing their hands in the air over whether these things are even detectable.
There again I don’t understand what’s meant by “tell the story” of PEDs.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 11, 2009 4:18 PM CST up reply actions
Cheating
Here’s the thing, though- players have had outlier seasons since the early days of the game.
Roger Maris hit 61 homers in 1961- he only had two other seasons in his whole career where he hit as many as 30 in a season.
Hank Aaron had his best offensive season at age 37 (in terms of OPS+) and two years later, put up another monster season.
If either of them had done those things today, they’d be under investigation (or at least heavily suspected) of PED usage.
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
If either of them had done those things today, they’d be under investigation (or at least heavily suspected) of PED usage.
If outlier seasons are common, maybe this is an invasion of privacy.
If they aren’t, eg Bonds, maybe this is the terms of engagement with being a pro baseball player.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 11, 2009 4:40 PM CST up reply actions
Not different
Cheating is cheating to me. I don’t care much about any of the cheating methods, baseball can deal with it and I’ll go on being a fan as always. But I don’t consider doctoring a ball any more or less cheating than injecting something into your ass. They are both equally wrong.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Amen...
I’m the big baseball fan in my office and I’m entirely sick of having to explain my viewpoints on the steroids issue to the guffawing NBA or NFL jackals who chide me for supporting a player’s legacy after he admits to using. I’m just going to print out this article and hand it out.
by ghostofErikThompson on Feb 11, 2009 2:53 PM CST reply actions
That's actually a brilliant strategy.
You just don't know when to keep your mouth shut, do you Saxy boy?
by oc on Feb 11, 2009 3:43 PM CST up reply actions
Amen Joe!
Steroids didn’t ruin baseball for a generation — it’s simply part of baseball’s story. Fields have gotten bigger and smaller, balls have gotten softer and harder, bats have changed, grass had changed, dirt has changed, mounds have changed….and for a decade or so, a lot of players got artifically stronger. You can’t keep things the same, and sports are constantly self-adjusting. Steroids are a chapter of baseball history. Time to turn the page…
Heh...
So, baseball’s about to “turn a page,” because “steroids are a chapter of baseball history.”
I love the cliches. I think steroids are going nowhere without, oh, some pretty deliberate action by owners and the commish. It’ll require some work. Everyone’s human character is pretty beside the point.
Here’s what I’m sick of.
This ARod story comes out, and the mono-reaction is to do this Mad Lib:
“PEDs are okay because __________________________.”
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 11, 2009 3:21 PM CST up reply actions
Who is saying they're ok?
We’re just reacting to the holier than thou media-bashing that inevitably results any time a well known player is rumored or proved to have taken PEDs. And the completely inconsistent and lofty standard that baseball players are held to by both media and HOF voters. Everyone here agress the Rodriguez is an idiot and did something wrong. Ok, except Cahill.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Who's saying they're ok
Not meant to be ad hominem, but I was amused by this, from Adam’s post about ARod yesterday:
Single-mindedness
That’s probably true in every profession. You’re not going to make it to the top unless you want it more than anything else. If you prefer family, leisure time, or even ethics, you’re not going to get there. Our culture rewards obsession.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________….
by t ball on Feb 10, 2009 11:03 AM EST reply reply actions actions 0 recs
I read that, perhaps mistakenly, as PEDs are ok. They get rewarded, so be it.
Incidentally, the real payoff came in response:
it’s not our culture
it’s any culture since the history of time
“To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant.”
by ab03 on Feb 10, 2009 11:04 AM EST to parent up reply reply actions actions 0 recs
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 11, 2009 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
This was the most rec’d comment in the same thread:
http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/2/10/754523/on-arod-on-roids#12109642
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 11, 2009 4:49 PM CST up reply actions
I wasn't saying they are ok in that comment
I think the situation is what it is and I’m tired of hearing about it. It’s not good for the game and it was pretty widespread that singling out players is a fruitless endeavor.
However, I don’t really mind the use of steroids when everybody is doing it and there is such a soft ban against it.
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
Singling players out is what deters it.
The 50-game suspensions placate the owners who like good PR and players fear the outcome.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 11, 2009 8:13 PM CST up reply actions
i meant after the fact
arod, clemens, bonds.
drug testing/50 game suspension is just fine.
the black eye you are getting for yelling at ARod 6 years after the fact is way worse than any sort of deterrence (which is marginal at best on top of the deterrence of testing/suspension already in place)
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
I'm not saying PEDs are okay...
My comments were in reference to the subject of the article, which argued against the popular tone that we should discredit all of the players from the steroid era.
No joke baseball needs to try and stomp out the issue. But ideas like putting asterisks in the recordbook, banning players from the HOF, etc. are stupid. I think people need to accept baseball for what it is and understand that the steroid era is just another era like all the others. There has never been a continuous level playing field throughout baseball history.
No joke baseball needs to try and stomp out the issue.
This seems like a minority opinion. I could be reading things wrong.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 11, 2009 4:20 PM CST up reply actions
It's not a minority opinion
But some people are being pragmatic. There’s always to be performance enhancers, scuffed balls, corked bats, stolen signs, etc. For that matter, there’s always going to be wife beaters, drunk drivers, people not paying child support, etc. in baseball. Same with football, basketball, speed skating, cycling, and almost every other sport. No reason to get too up in arms about it. Just hope that the powers-that-be do the best they can and enjoy the game.
I need to think something lasts forever, and it might as well be that state of being that is a game; it might as well be that, in a green field, in the sun.
Now that they have a rule on the book
they need to enforce the rule, and dole out suspensions as appropriate when players fail testing. I’ve got no problem with folks getting lifetime bans after 3 failed tests.
However, trying to punish folks who didn’t break any rules of baseball seems like a fairly silly thing for MLB to be doing.
If law enforcement and the courts want to enforce any laws players broke, they should have at it and start the investigations and grand juries.
It just seems dumb and hypocritical of MLB to create an environment where steroid use is encouraged and not punished, and then for them to come back after the fact and punish folks then.
Get off my lawn.
Without rationalizing the different "disgraces" by era
Posnanski makes even the murkiest research and story telling come clear. Man he is a good writer, and clear thinker.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Feb 11, 2009 3:16 PM CST reply actions
shades of gray
i agree that there is a blurry line between taking amphetamines to bounce back from an injury quicker and taking steroids to enhance your playing performance. But the real reason this is making people upset is because baseball is really only still popular because of the statistical and historical side of it. It is hard to argue with people who say football and basketball are more exciting and easier to watch (in my opinion). Baseball is a game steeped in history, and that has allowed fans to debate the merits of players from different eras. What steroids has done is throw those comparisons out of whack. Enos Slaughter may have been a racist, Ty Cobb a jerk, Pete Rose a cheat, etc, but you could still easily measure their performance on the field against others. You can’t do that with Bonds, McGuire, Clemens and A-Rod. And that is what breaks the hearts of baseball nerds everywhere.
At least this is how I feel. I was a nerdy, mathmatically minded kid who went to Rangers games with my family growing up, but i didn’t really fall in love with it until i discovered baseball cards and the stats on the back. I have never found a baseball fan who didn’t care deeply about stats.
and the issue here
isn’t really going to be about guys like Bonds and Clemens, because it is hard to argue that they would not have been Hall worthy players without steroids. The issue is going to be with players like Palmeiro or Bagwell, and on down the line.
I can help you with that.
I don’t care deeply about stats. I don’t need to care sufficiently to put them above my perception of a great recreational sport. Now I love stats, particularly when used to analyze relative merits of players versus other players. But I basically am aware of what individual players can do, ,should be able to do, and probably can’t do. All in the context of playing a team game within which individual performance characterizes why results are what they are. Stats are a record of what was done, and a less than reliable indicator of what will be (albeit pretty good and continuously refined now). Therer is no intrigue for me in calculation and analysis. There is great, mind capturing intrigue in the play of the game as it is being performed.
Then again, I was a durable, somewhat talented athlete for decades and have a ken (or sense of performance) when I see plays, ranging from incredibly skilled to routine to awfully executed. I’ve never kept baseball cards, never bought memorabilia, don’t wear team insignia. But I truly love the game, the competition, and the manifastion of effort and preparation the players undergo. I also never engage in fantasy sports (although they have captured massive interest) because however well conceived, there is no strain, no dirt and dust, no spit, to inner qualms that I might be really hurt, no physiometric response even close to holing out a six iron from 167 yards out or kicking a field goal from 42 etc.
I’m old, and observer not player any more. But anyhow, appreciation for the actual conduct of play of the game (for me) trumps any mental exercise aimed at analysis or critique of its’ participants. And believe me, it is as mucyh mental as visceral. I wouldn’t care to be considered an aged, dumb jock who doesn’t get the finer points.
On topic, I like Buck O’Neill’s end criteria. Can the guy play?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by Ed Coffin on Feb 11, 2009 3:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think Buck is talking about old-school players
i have a feeling that most legends of the past would be rolling over in their graves if they could see how baseball has become a chemistry experiment. There’s a reason that Hank Aaron didn’t want anything to do with Barry Bonds. I’m surprised Bonds’ godfather still talks to him.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
I always hate the way that people backed into a corner
point to others who have flaws to make themselves seem less irresponsible.
Stand up and take your punishment without acting so shocked that others in the past went unpunished. Life isn’t fair…you broke the rules, and you knew it was possible that you would get caught.
Greatest Inventions Ever? 1. TiVO, 2. Boobs, 3. Baseball
OT: The MLB Network is so disappointing.
Listening to Jon Heyman give his MVP validations is mind numbing. I think he must just ask Scott Boras who the 10 best players are and votes for them.
I can’t watch when he’s on, and it’s not like Reynolds and Leiter are much better. This is such a waste of a great idea.
Let's all find a new way to cheat.
Because that’s ok. We’re only trying to win. That’s everything, right?
What if the 103 names never come out?
Hall of Fame voting is complicated enough just based on baseball accomplishments, especially when a bunch of writers who have never played the game are the only ones voting (that needs to change too).
Now that we’ve added PED’s, it’s exponentially more complicated… especially if the 103 names never come out (which isn’t likely). But how would the voters justify keeping Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens, Big-Mac, and Sosa out of the Hall if they know there are other unidentified users. Not to mention that there must be other users who haven’t been caught.
I mean who would have known that Andy Pettitte was using, and what’s to say that Jeter or Pujols or name your favorite player
weren’t using?
It’s got to be on accomplishments alone… though I think the PED’s pose a more relevant problem when it comes to broken records (most obviously homeruns).
Bill James
In 36 words:
1) Baseball allowed a situation to develop in which it was in the self-interest of players to use steroids.
2) Now we are very angry with people because they did what the system rewarded them for doing.
Pretty tired, but yeah ok.
It doesn’t deal with the players who use PEDs now.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 11, 2009 8:17 PM CST up reply actions
Systems
In general, there are a lot of systems that reward people for doing immoral things. That doesn’t make it right.
For anybody that cares, Pete Stein and Mike Rodriguez are having a good chat about this same topic right now on the Fan.
You just don't know when to keep your mouth shut, do you Saxy boy?
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