Chone Projects Rangers as the Worst Team in Baseball
Chone Smith runs through the projected standings over all six divisions, and if he's right, the Rangers will have the worst record in baseball in 2009.
over 3 years ago
Adam J. Morris
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In that case
Is there a super elite prospect going #1?
that boras client from san diego right?
cant remember his name but hes supposed to be good i guess
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Feb 21, 2009 4:14 PM CST up reply actions
That's this year's draft. If the Rangers were to finish last, they'd get the No. 1 in 2010.
You watch too many movies Sax.
by oc on Feb 21, 2009 4:21 PM CST up reply actions
I do believe there is a great soph class in college right now
but that is a moot pt because i believe there is little chance the Rangers will have the worst record. My official prediction (fwiw) is 80-82.
by Michael Cave on Feb 21, 2009 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
duh
im a little behind on thinking ahead
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Feb 21, 2009 4:42 PM CST up reply actions
Worst projected record is different from predicting the worst record.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Feb 22, 2009 11:51 AM CST up reply actions
Great...
that much more ammo for the Outlaw to talk about how this thing sucks
Yep
Josey will be all over this. Saying how others are agreeing with him.
Keith Law on Greg Golson, "He's similiar to Cameron and Hunter in that all three are black."
His non-prediction was at like 75 wins
So still, no one agrees with him
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Uhm....really?
I must be drinking the Kool Aid cause I don’t see that at all.
"Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?"-Tom Smykowski Office Space.
I would be unsurprised by 69.
I wouldn’t call it the median probability, though.
TBH, though, I have noticed perhaps a lot of kool-aid drinking going on around here lately.
Chone
He also has the Padres finishing with 80 wins. I know the NL West is a weak division, but the Padres look like a 90-95 loss team to me.
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
That right there should invalidate these predictions
That Pads depth chart currently includes Jody Gerut, Scott Hairston, and David Eckstein in key offensive position. The 3-4-5 of their rotation is Cha Seung Baek, Kevin Correia, and Josh Geer.
Outside of A-Gone, Peavy, CY, and Chase Headley, their roster wouldn’t be competitive in Triple-A.
Keith Law: (1:45 PM ET ) I think Michael Young should shut his mouth and move to third base.
Um
1) That doesn’t invalidate them until they’ve been proven wrong.
2) Jody Gerut is really good. He was like a 3.5 WAR player last year, is projected something like a win better than that in PECOTA and likely to be my next pick (if he’s there) in the Beyond the Boxscore draft.
five teams worse than 69 wins last year
not saying that TEX is going to be good, but there will definitely be a couple of teams that implode/fail to launch/quit
again, not good – but i can’t see TEX being the worst. that is usually reserved for someone “special” like SEA’s 61 wins last year.
Bold prediction...someone save it.
87-75.
No way we only win 69 games.
The worst thing about being a Rangers fan.....hope.
Does he include defense at all in these projections?
Because while the Rangers “effectively replaced Milton Bradley with Omar Vizquel in the lineup”, they have done a hell of a lot to improve the defense by replacing Young at SS and Vazquez at 3B with Vizquel and the new 3B, Young.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Well looking at his defensive projections
He doesn’t even Young listed as a3B, so I’m curious as to who he has playing where on defense and each player’s respective playing times. Is that out there anywhere that you know of?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
just saw your comment down the page on this
you can ignore that last question
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Yeah, I'd really like to see the details.
I can’t make much of an informed agreement or disagreement without seeing the nitty gritty.
FML
All Your Rangers Blog Are Belong To Us
"They say brevity is the key to wit, so shut the f*ck up." Dad
Meh
Who cares. Let the trolls masturbate over this one.
As much “fun” as projections can be to look at and surmise over, some of them always seem too unrealistic to put any stock in, and this would be one of them.
Yeah. Spies. They're little guys with beady eyes and long fingernails. They plant bugs that can pick up the hush of a man's heartbeat - or the whisper of a falling hair.
I just don't see this team, which won 79 games despite the worst pitching in the AL last year (and a horrible start and a late-season collapse)
Is going to be 10 games worse this season. Not with the defensive improvements we made that should go a long way toward helping the pitching.
Yeah. Spies. They're little guys with beady eyes and long fingernails. They plant bugs that can pick up the hush of a man's heartbeat - or the whisper of a falling hair.
But wouldn't you have to probably look at the details of CHONE and compare to determine how unrealistic it really is?
I think it comes down to this
How much worse can you expect this team to get from where they were last year? CHONE projections are pretty good on an individual player basis, but his projections show pretty much every single expected starter to regress this year. Michael Young and Salty are the only 2 players to improve on their numbers from last year with Kinsler, Hamilton, and Davis all taking a noticeable step back. Hamilton is losing a bit in the OBP department and losing power in his age 28 season. Davis and Kinsler are losing about 60 points in their SLG while also taking a hit in their OBP. Overall, I do like the CHONE projections, but I just can’t imagine every single hitter on this team taking regressing next year from what they have done in the past couple of years.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
That's the kind of detail I was talking about.
I also want to know his playing time projections.
I do actually expect our offense to regress a little, but not as much as CHONE apparently thinks.
Kinsler likely won't be as good, same with Josh Hamilton. Bradley was big. Vazquez had a good offensive season, probably better than Young will do.
Last year’s run differential implied a 76-win team, too.
I do like the young guys, though. Cruz, Davis, that SS dude.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Feb 22, 2009 11:56 AM CST up reply actions
Just basic regression.
I realize he’s not exactly a typical 28 year old posting his first full season in the big leagues. Probably not significantly worse. Should have been more careful with that comment.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
How can you say Kinsler won't be as good?
A full season of a slightly less productive Kinsler would be better, in my mind, than a 120 game season like last year.
Keith Law: (1:45 PM ET ) I think Michael Young should shut his mouth and move to third base.
Actually, the playing time is a good point, had forgotten about that.
Although Arias didn’t make the position a black hole.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Why won't Kinsler be as good?
What did he do last season that you consider flukey? I can see his BA going down a bit and therefore a slightly worse OBP, but I think his power is legit.
And also, why would Hamilton decline any? His numbers from Cinncy suggested the Rangers would get a great offensive force and that is exactly what they got. He’s entering his prime years and through 1041 PAs, he now has a .386 wOBA.
And Vazquez was a great surprise, but his inability to hit lefties led to more playing time for Duran who was not good. Add in the terrible defense from them, and I don’t think you are losing anything at 3B production this year and you might end up a bit better if Young plays 3B like his tools suggest he can do.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Kinsler
I don’t think Kinsler will be as good because, if he repeats what he did last season, he’s probably the best player in the A.L.
Expecting him to do that again isn’t realistic.
by Adam J. Morris on Feb 22, 2009 2:01 PM CST up reply actions
Kinsler's counting stats
may be better with more games played, but, right, his rate stats should regress a tad. But from a team run production standpoint, more games from him means no dropoff in run production even if he regresses a bit, no?
Hamilton I can see being just as good, just with more baseball under his belt.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Exactly, t ball
More games + slightly less than a 134 OPS+ would still be an improvement
Keith Law: (1:45 PM ET ) I think Michael Young should shut his mouth and move to third base.
I'm fine if you project Kinsler's BA to drop
and therefore his OBP drops him down a bit (if his walk rate doesn’t increase). The biggest difference with him last season was the power surge. But his ISO shows a nice upward trend, his HR/FB last season wasn’t out of whack or anything, and I just don’t think his age 27 season will show him regressing that much.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
That seems awfully pessimistic
Let’s roughly split the difference between 2008 and CHONE and project .300/.367/.490. I think that’s more realistic than .286/.359/.468.
Keith Law: (1:45 PM ET ) I think Michael Young should shut his mouth and move to third base.
And I think that is a realistic BA/OBP line for Kinsler
I just don’t see his SLG dropping 60 points from last season.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Quick math.
Assume he’ll drop .033 points from 2008 to a .286 AVG. Subtracting .033 from his OBP and SLG puts him at a .342 OBP and .482 SLG. CHONE’s above that for OBP and just a bit lower on SLG.
Kinsler’s ISO’s the past three years are .168, .178, and .190. The .482 SLG uses the .190 number for projected ISO. Regressing a bit to, say, .180, put his “quick math” projected almost exactly at what CHONE has.
I agree Kinsler has the potential to be better than that. He could also be worse. Seems like a reasonable expectation, though.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
I'm just not a believer
that a player will lose that much power over one season when they are still young and improving each year.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Think about it this way...
What if Kinsler never had .525ish SLG power last year. What if a few extra balls happened to fall over the fence or a few extra doubles fell in against bad defenders.
That’s what regression handles. Guys with good AVGs, OBPs, or SLGs are more like to be getting a bit lucky than getting a bit unlucky.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Feb 23, 2009 10:32 PM CST up reply actions
Well, we all know the downside is deeper than the upside is high this year.
I’m still going with a 79-win season.
JD: Adamant about 78 wins in 2009. Go Rangers!
My prediction is 81-81
Even .500 sounds reasonable to me.
Yeah. Spies. They're little guys with beady eyes and long fingernails. They plant bugs that can pick up the hush of a man's heartbeat - or the whisper of a falling hair.
81-84 sounds about right.
The defense will be better and, the pitching will be 2006ish.
You watch too many movies Sax.
by oc on Feb 21, 2009 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
Tough to do math
when you’re stoned, out of toilet paper, and can’t figure out where you dropped your sandwich.
Get off my lawn.
That's funny.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
LOL
I just assumed he meant a range of 81 to 84 wins.
But I wouldn’t be shocked if your assumption is more accurate.
It was the former, but laugh it up.
You watch too many movies Sax.
by oc on Feb 21, 2009 6:14 PM CST up reply actions
I figured you meant 81-81 and a 3 and out in the playoffs.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"I don’t have any respect for anybody on here. Everyone on here is a fucking asshole who thinks they’re god compared to everyone else." -iorange555, throwing one of his patented sandy-vagina'd hissy fits.
by thedirkatron on Feb 21, 2009 6:21 PM CST up reply actions
I'm firm with 97-65.
I had us winning 106 initially, but decided that was a tad optimistic.
Keith Law: (1:45 PM ET ) I think Michael Young should shut his mouth and move to third base.
Well, I guess we might as well not play the season now.
I really don’t get the importance of “projections” and why we should get excited about them one way or another. I also don’t see how in the hell you can predict that this team will be 10 wins worse than last year’s team.
Yeesh.
well
I should check and make sure I had the Omar/Elvis combo factored in at short when I ran their pitchers.
so maybe he hadn’t done that. he also ran this Feb. 10th – not exactly news.
And whatever, he’s an Angels fan that named his projections after Chone Figgins.
"To be ignorant of one’s ignorance is the malady of the ignorant."
Well
The AL West went up 2/10. The last division didn’t go up until yesterday.
by Adam J. Morris on Feb 21, 2009 5:23 PM CST up reply actions
Chone player projections
are ranked in the top 3 along with Pecota and MGL so those have their uses at least. I have less use for team projections as they seem only a little better than spitting in the wind…
the real trick is predicting playing time, though.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Feb 22, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions
We'll be revisiting this opinion on October 5th.
You watch too many movies Sax.
by oc on Feb 21, 2009 5:39 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, I know. CHONE makes you cum.
You watch too many movies Sax.
by oc on Feb 21, 2009 5:58 PM CST up reply actions
Have you really become completely incapable of even pretending to have a normal conversation?
Or do you just give up and troll full time now?
I troll?
Nonsense fucko.
You watch too many movies Sax.
by oc on Feb 21, 2009 6:01 PM CST up reply actions
To a pretty stupid question.
You watch too many movies Sax.
by oc on Feb 21, 2009 6:03 PM CST up reply actions
You're wasting your time with this. We need more CHONE posts.
You watch too many movies Sax.
by oc on Feb 21, 2009 6:10 PM CST up reply actions
Didn't he have a wrist issue last spring as well?
Yeah. Spies. They're little guys with beady eyes and long fingernails. They plant bugs that can pick up the hush of a man's heartbeat - or the whisper of a falling hair.
the Rangers
projection is an outlier. The Vizquel replacing Bradley analysis is silly, taking no account of the Rangers efforts at run prevention.
Also, with a lot of weak teams in the NL, I see the Cubs as closer to 100 than 88 wins. And, I don’t see an aging Tigers team improving by 11 wins this year.
"A good start would be not giving up 900 runs again." -Jon Daniels
by Randy Richardson on Feb 21, 2009 5:35 PM CST reply actions
As CHONE does have a defensive element. . .
. . . what makes you assume it didn’t take run prevention in to account?
I wasn't referring to his
entire projection system – just the comment. I think it’s reasonable to suggest that the Rangers are going to score fewer runs this year, but it’s even more reasonable that they will give up fewer.
"A good start would be not giving up 900 runs again." -Jon Daniels
by Randy Richardson on Feb 21, 2009 5:43 PM CST up reply actions
That's what I just said.
This seems pretty uninformed:
Rangers have, through position changes, effectively replaced Milton Bradley with Omar Vizquel in the lineup. They won’t score runs like last year, and still have no pitching.
The Rangers have likely done more than any other team to improve run prevention for this year. And, the “Rangers have no pitching” is a Galloway-type throwaway comment.
"A good start would be not giving up 900 runs again." -Jon Daniels
by Randy Richardson on Feb 21, 2009 6:08 PM CST up reply actions
"The Rangers have likely done more than any other team to improve run prevention for this year."
I’ll take the Mariners as having done more, and that’s in our own division.
Off the top of my head. . .
The Yankees, too. Not as much as they could do, but they did sign an awesome pitcher, another pitcher who should at least be better than the back of their rotation in ’08, an elite fielder at 1st, and in improvement over Bobby Abreu in the corner.
I'll take the
Rangers move of Young to 3B, Andrus/Vizquel at SS, Hamilton off of CF (it seems), and Davis at 1B for an entire year as a better pitching independent effort at run prevention. Obviously, it’s debateable.
"A good start would be not giving up 900 runs again." -Jon Daniels
by Randy Richardson on Feb 21, 2009 6:22 PM CST up reply actions
PECOTA is more accurate than CHONE typically.
But both or more accurate than people who sit around and make guesses based on gut feelings.
That said, they’re not far apart on us. Last I checked PECOTA it had us at 73. I have some idea of what has gone in to our PECOTA projection and I would slightly take the over. While I’ve seen our individual CHONE projections, I don’t know what has one in to the team total.
I do think 69 is more likely than 85, though.
How so?
I don’t think the Rangers are going to regress at every position, and the fact that this team won 79 games last year, I think they have a better chance to improve this year at least by a couple games to 81 or so. I consider that more likely than becoming 10 games worse. It’s true there will be some regression, but I do think there will be improvements as well.
Either way, the argument about Omar replacing Milton is ridiculous. Not only for the fact that Omar will only play for a month. I think you have to consider Chris Davis (Full year) and Nelson Cruz to easily replace MB’s offense. Not only that, you never knew when MB would just decide not to play. You couldn’t count on him to play every day.
Another one bites the dust! And another one, and another one, and another one bites the dust!
How so to which part?
If it’s the last then it’s largely because, through an off season of looking at projections and doing a few of my own, I’ve got the over/under at around 76. But projection systems better than me have them, typically, at least a little worse, so I’d take the extreme under before I’d take the extreme over.
They'll be 15 games out by June 1st
:)
LoneStarBall....You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
by LSBUser on Feb 21, 2009 5:43 PM CST reply actions
The funny part is. . .
. . . I can realistically see winning 69 games and still playing meaningful games in September in this division.
Terrible walk rate as a freshman.
Go Strangers.
by hightowersmith on Feb 23, 2009 9:28 AM CST up reply actions
Had a decent outing yesterday.
Got tagged by a 3 run homer, not much else. Struck out 11 in 5, walked none. Hit a batter. About 68% strikes. Considering how cold it was in Chapel Hill yesterday, that’s pretty good for a first outing.
by Andy Seiler on Feb 23, 2009 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
since you started it
79-83 after being 44-32 at the ASB. Interesting schedule this year. Only 76 games before the break.
apr 13-9
may 15-13
jun 12-15
july 13-12
aug 11-18 what a brutal schedule in August
sept 14-13
oct 1-3
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
920 RA
BP’s EQRA for the Rangers last season was 933. The allowed a ton more runs than would be expected because of a horrible LOB%.
Projecting 920 runs allowed in 2009 is basically saying they will be, for all intents and purposes, no better in run prevention than they were last year.
by Adam J. Morris on Feb 21, 2009 7:52 PM CST up reply actions
Though that was mostly off the top of my head.
And, FWIW, the spreadshee I’m working on for BTB , I think, is closer to you. It’s also park-neutral, though.
AJM, I guess you're planning on
Brandon McCarthy going 17-8 in 200 IPs with an ERA below 4.00 and having everything else on the team go right as well.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
Yeah
Because there’s no possible way the team can have a +25 run differential this season unless everything on the team goes right.
by Adam J. Morris on Feb 21, 2009 7:49 PM CST up reply actions
Let's see...
Brandon McCarthy going 17-8 in 200 IPs with an ERA below 4.00 and having everything else on the team go right as well.
That would mean Blalock duplicating what Bradley did last year, Andruw Jones returning to form. Hamilton and Kinsler replicating what they did last season. The catchers hitting to capability, Chris Davis taking a step forward, Nelson Cruz showing September is for year, Michael Young bouncing back, and health across the board. Do that, and the Rangers score about 975 runs.
Meanwhile, Kevin Millwood and Vicente Padilla pitch like they did in their last contract years, McCarthy does what you predict, Scott Feldman and Matt Harrison are LAIEs, Derrick Turnbow and Brendan Donnelly return to form, Wilson and Francisco step up, and the rest of the bullpen is respectable, while the defense is very good.
Do all that, and the Rangers probably allow 740 runs.
That’s a Pythagorean won/loss record of 103-59.
Of course, if “everything goes right,” they’ll exceed their Pyth. w/l record, win 107 or 108 games, and go on to win the World Series.
You know, if we’re planning on ’having everything on the team go right."
by Adam J. Morris on Feb 21, 2009 8:06 PM CST up reply actions
My head would explode. Like, it would literally just blow the fuck up.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
I hate Michael Young.
"I don’t have any respect for anybody on here. Everyone on here is a fucking asshole who thinks they’re god compared to everyone else." -iorange555, throwing one of his patented sandy-vagina'd hissy fits.
by thedirkatron on Feb 21, 2009 8:11 PM CST up reply actions
Josey would literally explode too
Except I don’t think it would be from joy.
Keith Law: (1:45 PM ET ) I think Michael Young should shut his mouth and move to third base.
Your head would explode
… and when all the pieces landed they’d smell out L-E-M-O-N.
You lost Bradley and you seem like a bunch of arrogant sons of bitches, your pitching always sucks!!
by shroomer on Feb 21, 2009 8:50 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
There's a big difference between "having everything on the team go right"
and wild performance beyond any reasonable expectation.
You know 83 wins is utter bullshit…or at least you should.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Feb 21, 2009 11:13 PM CST up reply actions
You're right, there is a big difference
And 83 wins is not apocalyptic, as you seem to think. 105 wins, yeah that might be crazy talk. 83 wins is just optimistic, glass half-full, positive thinking, not “utter bullshit.” I fail to see the problem with hoping for the best for the team I follow obsessively.
Keith Law: (1:45 PM ET ) I think Michael Young should shut his mouth and move to third base.
It is?
And yet, Vegas thinks 80.5 as an over/under is reasonable…
by Adam J. Morris on Feb 22, 2009 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
When you build your roster with NRIs(Not Really Important)
This is what you get. The whole NRI program goes nowhere. NRIs are for now, not tomorrow. This team is supposed to be playing for tomorrow. I would trade all the NRIs for one reasonable free agent.
id be interested to see
a statistical analysis evaluating each of the major prediction systems. something like average of the deviation between actual wins and predicted wins for all teams over a ten year span. then compare those success rates with the success rates of the naive, “gut” predictions done by a a bunch of different baseball experts. i imagine the prediction systems have something to offer, and are probably more accurate over a large sample size. but that doesnt mean they wont occasionally render a prediction that doesnt pass the smell test.
here’s one way i look at it. if you held a contest where people had to choose whether they thought the rangers would win 10% more games than the prediction (76) or 10% fewer games (62) and if either of those results occurred then those who chose it would get $100, i think youd have virtual unanimity on the 10% more side of things. with predictions like this there is an inherent degree of variance. but a prediction that fails to account for the downside variance isnt a very accurate one to me.
im not ragging on the CHONE formulas or methodology or whatever, Im willing to accept that they probably do a good job most of the time. im just saying this particular prediction is in inaccurate one.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Feb 21, 2009 7:22 PM CST reply actions
This is what God made Vegas Watch for.
I know Tom Tango did some work with this, too, this off season, getting in to the individual player level, as well. I can’t find it in a cursory Google or Baseball Fever search, though. There are definitely more thorough analysis than Vegas Watch’s little deal there, but Vegas Watch is still fucking awesome.
Comparing the projections
to “experts” isn’t all that instructive. I would actually expect guys like Olney, Phillips, Gammons, etc. to be poor at these types of things because they have irrational biases because of friendships they’ve built with execs, players, and coaches – they probably also harbor some enmity towards some others.
It also seems like human nature to want to be “right” when everyone else had it “wrong”, so maybe these experts go with contrarian outlier picks just for the possiblity of being able to say at the end of the year, “I had team X winning 98 games.”
(I don’t know the answer to this question) Are the computer projections just better at not being wildly wrong (my term)? For example, CHONE’s 2009 NL predictions has the teams tightly packed. No team wins more than 88, none losses more than 90. In the history of the NL since the 162 game schedule no full season has ever not produced a 90 win team and only once has the worst team lost fewer than 91 games.
"A good start would be not giving up 900 runs again." -Jon Daniels
by Randy Richardson on Feb 21, 2009 9:03 PM CST up reply actions
Projections
I don’t believe you’ll find many team outliers which is why the worst team in the AL wins 69 games.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Huge outliers probably aren't going to be in an objective projection.
They take a perfect storm of hard-to-see things to be that good or bad.
"im just saying this particular prediction is in inaccurate one."
While I’m among those who would take the over and I am of the opinion that the O/U set by the CHONE projection is too low, you cannot call the CHONE projection (or mine or PECOTA’s or Josey’s, for that matter) for the Rangers’ record inaccurate until the Rangers have a record.
forgive my wording
my point was that my gripe is with the particular instance of prediction and not with the system itself.
i also think its sort of splitting hairs to say that we cant assess the accuracy of predictions of future events. in a strict sense you may be right, depending on how you feel about determinism. but in a more colloquial way, i see no problem with it. if someone had said this last december “It is accurate that Barack Obama will be the president of the United States next month.” I think most would accept this as a reasonable, fair statement despite the fact there would be no way to determine its truth value since any number of unlikely, but possible events could have intervened and rendered the statement inaccurate.
Likewise there is no way to determine at this point the truth value of my statement regarding the 69 wins prediction, but i think most would accept it as a fair reflection of my individual opinion of the prediction.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Feb 21, 2009 8:14 PM CST up reply actions
I think the Barrack thing was a little more determinable.
There are a whole lot more variables to a baseball season. It is many million times more possible for the Rangers to lose 93 games than for something to hapen with the president elect before he becomes the president.
PECOTA had the Rays win 90 games in its last form last year. Dismissing that as factually wrong before the season had been played would have ended up making someone a laughing stock.
I know because I kept track of people who called it “impossible” and other such things and bumped those threads. . .
The Rays prediction was factually wrong
The Rays won 97 games, not 90.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
And we didn't know that until the season was played.
The point is, though, also that most people thought it was “wrong” before such a thing could be possible because they thought it was way too good.
your stat projection pants must be very tonight today
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 21, 2009 8:39 PM CST up reply actions
You're completely missing the point and deciding to get in to petty insults instead.
A projection based on throwing darts isn’t inaccurate until there’s something by which to test. Stats or not.
A discussion of the methodology has merits, on the other hand.
It's more like we'd like you to shut the fuck up about projections for a second.
You watch too many movies Sax.
by oc on Feb 21, 2009 8:45 PM CST up reply actions
Where you have 40 comments out of 115. You're batting a red-hot .348 in this thread.
We get it.
You watch too many movies Sax.
by oc on Feb 21, 2009 8:52 PM CST up reply actions
Oh gee, I forgot you had to actively click on this thread, and then read through all the comments.
Maybe you should smoke more bowls, eat more sammiches, and take more shits…because you are becoming very tiresome.
arizona…
…nothin’ like smokin’ a bowl in the middle of the desert and watching the sun go down…
by oc on Jan 2, 2008 2:14 PM CST
it’s time to pack a bowl and listen to Mike Ogulnick.
no, money down!
by oc on Aug 30, 2008 11:18 PM CDT
SB-NATION TAKES DUMP; OC SMOKES BOWL
no, money down!
by oc on Aug 31, 2008 2:20 PM CDT
This is one of those threads where it’s OK to leave to go take a shit, make a sandwich, or smoke a bowl.
Now if it were a Jeff Sullivan thread, I might be more inclined to resist any urges to get up.
by oc on Oct 14, 2008 12:33 AM CDTAnd just to top things off…
And, I haven’t mentioned anything about weed, sandwiches or shits in months… but, keep trotting that out there if it makes you feel more muscular.
GREINKE HO!!!!!
by oc on Oct 29, 2008 7:31 PM CDT
Yeah, Cahill is so 2005………
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
yah I totally didn't type what I meant to say
I’m not missing any point. I was just commenting on the fact that you have about 50 of the 100 posts on this topic e.g. your stat projection pants being very tonight
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 21, 2009 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
I think LSB 2.0 is fucking with me
“tight tonight” there wtf
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Feb 21, 2009 8:52 PM CST up reply actions
i dont know that degree of determinability
should be a criterion for what sort of claims about predictions of future events are allowable. figuring out where to draw the line would be an exercise in futility. the point is, people make these sorts of claims all the time, and it would become cumbersome if they always had to preface it with some caveat about how a prediction is neither true or false until a determinative outcome obtains and that their claim merely expresses a good faith appraisal, on their part, of the particular prediction at hand. and that is all my claim was.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Feb 21, 2009 8:42 PM CST up reply actions
And all my claim was. . .
. . . is that it’s not inaccurate.
Considering your point seemed to revolve around the accuracy, I also consider that important.
i guess we're still not on the same page here
maybe i should have added an ‘i think’ or ‘in my opinion’ in the original statement but i figured that was implied. anyway, in spite of your objections, i feel reasonably secure with the fact that my claim is a valid one, even it proves to be incorrect.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Feb 21, 2009 9:10 PM CST up reply actions
CHONE had the Rays in the same ballpark, too.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
by Sky Kalkman on Feb 22, 2009 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
I do find it interesting...
…..that several folks who like to refer to CHONE, PECOTA, etc. are having a hard time accepting the results as realisitic, and not in line with what they believe.
That being said, don’t think the runs against and runs for differential will be that different than last year, but I do expect both of them to be a little lower. The runs against should improve because of the following:
1) Millwood and Padilla are pitching for contracts, so expect better effort on their part.
2) If healthy, McCarthy definitely helps this rotation
3) Solid performance out of Feldman for the entire season is beneficial
4) As far as the Young, Andrus, Vizquel situation goes, I believe its true impact will be felt by 2010 and not in 2009. Young will be fine at 3B, but will be better next year with his comfort level higher. Vizquel is NOT the Vizquel we all want to remember and Andrus coming up will make us better by 2010. I believe it will have a slight positive impact on run prevention, but not to the extent everybody is hoping. I don’t believe the OF defense will be much better than it was last year……and yes, I’ve seen what everybody says about “if” and “but” regarding Cruz, Byrd, Jones, Murphy, etc. True run prevention impact will be made with 1-3 occurring with the rotation, and not overworking the bullpen….again. Oops…and a hopeful reduction in errors…..big ommission on my part, but I’m not retyping.
Run Production will be less in my eyes, for several reasons. Bradley’s ability will be missed in this lineup….no combination of players will make up for what he meant to the team last season, even if they cover his stats. Two different things. Last year was a magical season in some respects for the Rangers and individual players, and I expect some to do better, some about the same, and some less:
Kinsler – expect a dropoff from last season; dude was on fire and would be amazed if he can replicate what he was doing prior to injury
Young – expect improvement this year; played through injury and has been a steady offensive player throughout the years. Last year was forgettable, but I believe improvement will be seen as he gets back to what he does best….timely, consistent hitting.
Hamilton – Love the dude, but I feel there will be a little “back to Earth” happening this season….especially without the protection of Bradley.
Cruz – I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying there is no positive or negative impact. This is based on finally showing he can hit a little at the end of last season, but I’m not counting on it for a whole season. Definite dropoff from Bradley, unless he can do consistently what he did at the end of last season. That’s asking alot.
Blalock – I believe Blalock’s bat will be a plus for run production, but just as a good bat to have in there. Not a he’s going to hit like a monster, but he will be solid. He will bump run production up a bit for the Rangers.
Davis – Definite improvement for 1B stats. I don’t believe he will hit as well for an entire season as he did last year, but he is definitely a run producer who scares other teams. He bumps the run production.
Muryphy/Byrd – I see nothing that boosts or hurts the numbers, but I don’t expect their numbers to increase anything significant.
Vizquel/Andrus – Black Hole of offensive stats. I believe this will be a significant dropoff negatively impacting run production, even though I know they are there for run prevention, I expect their production to be worse than SS or 3B from a year ago, so either way, its a loss offensively
Salty/Teagarden – I don’t expect anything more than we got from catcher the entire last season. I wished like hell that Salty got moved, because I don’t see anything from him. The duo only boosts run prevention, and imo, that’s only if Teagarden is behind the plate.
True improvement for the team will only come from the pitching side and that is if they can be a big part of the run prevention. I believe they will be better, but not great. But better can get them to 80 wins this season. If they falter, 72 wins isn’t out of the realm of possibility.
I miss 1989. I miss 1996. Please make me miss another season in 2008.
Adam has written
a lot of good stuff on run prevention this offseason. Even if you don’t bring individual pitchers into the conversation, the Rangers should see a solid drop in runs allowed. The Rangers have made big improvements in their defense, most notably because Young has moved to 3B. The Rangers were horrible defensively at 3B last year. Adam has also noted that the Rangers should regress to the mean in LOB% and unearned runs allowed (there were other stats that I can’t think of off the top of my head). I think, even being very conservative, the Rangers will allow at least 50 fewer runs in ’09.
"A good start would be not giving up 900 runs again." -Jon Daniels
by Randy Richardson on Feb 21, 2009 9:32 PM CST up reply actions
You wrote a lot of good stuff.
Mostly I think your emphasis on “realistic” and “realm of possibility.” I think that’s key. I think it might be drinking a little too much kool-aid to decide 69 wins is out of the realm of posibility.
That doesn’t mean anyone whould look at CHONE and say “well, no use thinking otherwise,” either. I’m certainly not picking 69 wins, I just accept it as a realistic situation.
69 wins is possible
I wouldn’t be surprised if this teams wins anywhere from 69-86 or 87 wins. I think the upper 70s is more likely.
The Rangers have a lot of players that are either young or on their last legs or not very good. Anything could happen. Josey is a colossal ass, but his prediction about the record of the team this year is not outlandish. His reasoning is stupid, his blind hatred for Daniels is stupid, his arguments as to why the team won’t win more are stupid…
but his prediction about the won-loss record is entirely possible.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Actually, I haven't made a prediction
on what the Ranger record will be this year just yet but I have been looking for reasons to believe they won’t lose at least 90 games this year.
I’m not shocked at all by what PECOTA & Chones have projected but I want to see the team in spring training before making my own prediction.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
I have been looking for reasons
to believe that you didn’t wet your keyboard upon reading :
Chone Projects Rangers as the Worst Team in Baseball
Stats are cool if they inflate you, but are otherwise irrelevant.
Give me Sheets or give me Offseason Blues Part III.
by inactive lsb user on Feb 23, 2009 10:42 PM CST up reply actions
What Chone (& PECOTA) said validates what I've been saying
all off-season and it also lifts it’s hind leg on the takes of all the sunshine pumpers who think this team, currently constructed and with this manager can win 83+ games..
2007 & 2008 were the afterbirth of a lot of very bad decisions made by JD and I have been given no reason to believe this upcoming season will be any different.
Let’s hope I’m wrong because watching bad baseball up close really sucks.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
I thought more about this, these projections are a little too pessimistic
for one reason. The Rangers had a huge number of things go wrong the last couple of years, mainly due to injuries. With all the injuries to starters last year, young players were called up before they were ready and asked to do too much. The bullpen was exhausted and suffered its own injuries. The projections are based on these performances. If the team is simply healthier — a good bet, in my opinion — the team should project more in the low 80s range.
Sure, if the starters all get injured again and the bullpen has to pitch a stupid amount of innings the team will struggle to win 75 games. Duh. I don’t need Pecota to tell me that. Health had much more to do with the Rangers team ERA last year than any other factor. The Rangers suffered a ridiculous amount of bad luck last year and will not be that unhealthy again.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
i agree with pretty much everything you said
but im a tad more pessimistic about the health of the club. we’ve already had injuries to benoit and hurley (and in a way sheets, since had the inability to rehab not occurred he would likely be in our starting rotation), which hurts our depth. thats one or two fewer pitching injuries we can suffer before we have to dip into that level of inexperienced, underprepared guys. i think the jennings and benson signings will help and i think our bullpen looks better this year with more established veterans, but i could still very easily see a scenario where we have to trot out pitchers that just arent ready or overuse our bullpen to the point of ineffectiveness. Yes, we should be healthier, but I wouldnt be surprised if it’s only by a marginal amount.
by Smoakin in the Boys Room on Feb 22, 2009 7:22 PM CST up reply actions
If the Rangers don't play
fundamentally sound baseball there is no way they can be a .500 team. They regressed in an ugly way last year and most of that cannot be attributed to injuries. The pitching staff was the worst fielding staff in the majors and the worst offenders were veterans: 21 errors and a .921 def. fldg %. The catchers were pitiful last year and that was an unexpected weakness IMO: 21 errors, 13 pb, and 114SB against. The bonehead plays – running into outs, missing cutoff men, missing signs – were just embarrassing and not attributable to injuries for the most part. Third base was a clusterfuck that will improve a lot but unless the team’s attitude/preparedness changes with respect to playing sound baseball, this team won’t really compete for the division even with a healthy staff.
Maddux >>>>>>>> Connor
That should help some there. Of course I am about Mark Connor like Josey is about JD, so take it for what’s it worth
The guy named it after him.
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
by Kinslerhomer on Feb 22, 2009 8:12 AM CST up reply actions
Sean's updated the projections.
Texas is up to 72 wins. He hadn’t factored in the Vizquel/Young defensive moves on the pitchers’ ERAs. In his power rankings, the Rangers are 24th.
http://www.baseballprojection.com/2009standings.htm
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Well, there ya go
Still pessimistic, obviously, but that seems more realistic than a 10-win drop.
Yeah. Spies. They're little guys with beady eyes and long fingernails. They plant bugs that can pick up the hush of a man's heartbeat - or the whisper of a falling hair.































