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Around SBN: Spencer Hall's Sports Meme Power Rankings

Mt. Rushmore of Rangers

per ESPN page 2.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=schoenfield/090224_al&sportCat=mlb

Didn't see this posted, though it is 2 days old, so forgive if it's old.  ESPN did a rundown of the all-time 4 players on all the AL franchises.

 

The Rangers:

Nolan Ryan, Ivan Rodriguez, Rafael Palmeiro, Juan Gonzalez

Choice quote:

"The four greatest players in franchise history (Pudge, Palmeiro, Gonzalez, Alex Rodriguez) have all been linked to steroids or rumors of steroids. In other words, this is kind of like building a Mount Rushmore of Warren Harding, Herbert Hoover, James Buchanan and Andrew Johnson."

 

0 recs  |  Comment 72 comments

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I don't think Elster cares..

After all, he’s immortalized in one of the greatest baseball movies of all time. Gotta love Pat Corning.

by ravscloC on Feb 26, 2009 2:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Elster is the man...

When I was like 10 years old I wrote him for an autograph. Didn’t send anything and he sent me TWO autograph cards. Quickest hands I’ve ever seen. I based my fielding after him. He was great and not b/c the autographs. He should be on the mountain.

http://secondbaser.blogspot.com

by secondbaser on Feb 26, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There were some horrible choices there for several teams....

I think its kind of a cool excercise, but only if you put true effort into it. Besides some really obvious poor selections, the Brewer list with the bratwurst just made me understand this dude didn’t put a lot into this, which is a shame.

Also, I think it should have been limited to just players. Not owners, managers, broadcasters, etc… but that’s just me.

I don’t think I can disagree too much with the Ranger list, though.

I miss 1989. I miss 1996. Please make me miss another season in 2008.

by Chaim Witz on Feb 26, 2009 3:31 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Kenny Rogers should enter this discussion also, IMO.

Yeah. Spies. They're little guys with beady eyes and long fingernails. They plant bugs that can pick up the hush of a man's heartbeat - or the whisper of a falling hair.

by lonestarJon on Feb 26, 2009 4:46 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Fergie Jenkins

Seeing as 93 of his 284 career wins came here, and he’s one of our four Hall of Famers, I’d also include him in the discussion, as well as Charlie Hough and Kevin Brown.

"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky

by RCCook on Feb 26, 2009 7:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I would bet that

Hough had more wins here than Nolan had starts. Just sayin’.

Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.

by TheJeezus on Feb 26, 2009 8:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You would win the bet

We couldn't have known it at the time but we definitely killed the wrong Belushi brother.

by Chad Crudup on Feb 26, 2009 8:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He did

Hough had 139 wins as a Ranger. Nolan made 129 starts.

Hough also had seven consecutive seasons of 14 or more wins while a Ranger.

I know he’s in the Ranger Hall of Fame, but it’s always galled me that the Rangers haven’t retired #49. I can’t think of any Ranger player- other than perhaps Pudge- who is more deserving of that honor. And that includes Nolan.

"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky

by RCCook on Feb 26, 2009 8:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Once you start getting

short timers like Nolan in, you pretty much have to look at ARod.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Feb 26, 2009 8:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How long before Hamilton?

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Feb 26, 2009 8:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

June?

July, maybe?

Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.

by TheJeezus on Feb 26, 2009 8:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

He'd need

a few near-MVP seasons. Chronologically, if he is going to have them, he’s gonna have to start having them soon. MVPs are a young mans game. He probably has a 5 year window or so to rake them in.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Feb 26, 2009 8:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Palmeiro is all time ranger leader

in ABs, Rs, BBs,HBP, Batting Wins, Runs Created. 2nd in TBs, doubles, HRs.

Palmeiro might have been roided up, but all Johnny did was take a lineup that had the potential to make 1000 runs a few years in a row, and got one playoff win with them.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Feb 26, 2009 7:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Harsh, but fair...

…I’ll take talented players over talented managers every day of the week.

We couldn't have known it at the time but we definitely killed the wrong Belushi brother.

by Chad Crudup on Feb 26, 2009 8:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to me.

Additionally, as I stated, I would prefer the exercise to be exclusively players. But to each his own.

I do agree that an argument can be made for several players, but I believe when all is said and done, the Mt. Rushmore for the Rangers would pretty much what they listed. Other players I’d consider:

Kenny Rogers
Charlie Hough
Buddy Bell
Toby Harrah
I’d love to put Fergie in there, but I don’t think most would associate him to the Rangers….whether we like to or not.

I miss 1989. I miss 1996. Please make me miss another season in 2008.

by Chaim Witz on Feb 26, 2009 8:06 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know Johnny Oates is loved

and he was a great guy. But the Rangers didn’t win anything because of him. I never thought he was a great manager – just a good manager for a very good ballclub. No enshrinement for him.

by JBImaknee on Feb 26, 2009 9:12 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Vandergriff, Oates, Pudge and...

…Ryan, I suppose.

You watch too many movies Sax.

by oc on Feb 26, 2009 4:15 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Clearly...

a Rangers Mt. Rushmore is not complete without David Hulse.

by ghostofErikThompson on Feb 26, 2009 5:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you have start with this guy and go from there

Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.

by TheJeezus on Feb 26, 2009 8:13 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Tom Vandergriff

was the worst announcer (he did some tv games in the 70s) I have ever heard in my life.

"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."

by Josey Wales on Feb 28, 2009 11:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You know Josey I just don't know if I give a shit.

I have fulfilled all my prophecies; all my predictions are up to date.
My train is right on schedule.

by oc on Mar 1, 2009 3:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They can have

Pudge, Juando and Palmeiro holding steroid needles and Hough holding a beer and a cigarette.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Feb 26, 2009 7:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And Hamilton holding a ?

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Feb 26, 2009 8:47 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Bible

Bobby Jindal '12

by dstar442005 on Feb 26, 2009 8:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I would have Sundberg over Hough

Seriously – this organization is best represented by not having a pitcher on display. Catchers, on the other hand, is something this organization does well.

While Nolan legacy bashing is en vogue these days, I’d disagree that he’s meritless. While his tenure in Texas was short, and he certainly wasn’t in his prime anymore, you can definitely argue that he brought national and local attention to the Rangers at a time when no one really cared. I remember in the late ‘80s, before the Ballpark was planned, where there were actually rumors the Rangers may leave Texas. In that respect, Nolan saved the franchise. Without Nolan, there would likely have been no Ballpark. Without the Ballpark, the Rangers probably wouldn’t be in Arlington anymore.

by JBImaknee on Feb 26, 2009 9:11 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Honestly,

Sundberg wasn’t that great. Best Ranger of the time? Maybe. But there was a reason most of the teams he was on, with the exception of the fluke ’77 team that had 4 managers, were craptastic. He was maybe the best of a very bad lot.

Charlie Hough was a very good consistent 15+ game winner on teams that struggled to score 700 runs some years.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Feb 26, 2009 9:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wins?

That’s all you have to go against me? Wins? Looks like I’ll have the high ground until I start citing Sundberg’s gold gloves…

I think comparing a defensive specialist catcher to an innings sucking knuckleball pitcher may be the biggest apples / oranges comparison you can think of (other than the irony that you need the former to catch the latter).

For a five year stretch (77-81), Sundberg had OPS+’s of 105,109,94,105,119. Not stellar, by any means, but quite valuable for a catcher. Add in the fact that he was widely considered the best defensive catcher in the AL (gold gloves in 6 straight years), and generally is considered among the top handful all time. Since its very difficult to measure defensive value of catchers for today’s players, it will probably be impossible to really quantify Sunny, since that is where the bulk of his value lay. (I think a good comparison to Sundberg would be Bill Mazeroski – who was one of the top handful of defensive 2b around, yet never had an OPS+ over 100. Maz is in the Hall of Fame, partially for a certain home run, but also because of his defensive prowess in spite of mediocre batting for decades)

Hough was really valuable as well, and was one of my favorite players growing up. I don’t think you could go wrong having either of them on a team Mt.Rushmore.

by JBImaknee on Feb 26, 2009 10:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Charlie Hough's ERA+ during that time

116, 126, 111,128,114,119,123.

Folks forget how good he was. This wasn’t Rick Helling winning because his team was scoring 7 runs a night behind him almost every night. The ’82 Rangers where Charlie Hough won 16 games, the Rangers scored 590 total runs. The other starters were scratching out 5 and 7 wins during the season. Its one thing racking up wins on a team that is scoring close to a 1000 runs a year, like the late ’90s Rangers, its another thing to get wins on teams that are lucky to get you 700 runs a year.

Unlike Nolan Ryan, Charlie Hough was actually able to win with craptastic run support.

In my estimation, few Rangers are more Underrated than Charlie Hough. As Ranger pitchers go, both Nolan and Fergie clearly take a backseat to Hough.

There is no way I take Sundberg over Hough.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Feb 26, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm certainly not arguing how good Hough was

He is probably the Rangers best pitcher all time. I’m not arguing that.

My argument is simply that I’d take Sundberg’s league-average offense with league-best defense at catcher than Hough’s above league-average pitching. But its close, and I can understand choosing Hough. I tend to opt for players with some greatness over other guys who may be on average better. But that is a personal preference.

Ryan you would choose for what he meant to the organization as much as his performance over his 5 years. I agree that Hough was more valuable “on the field” than Ryan was.

Rogers has a small claim, but if you are going to go longevity and career, Hough beats him out.

Fergie, Brown, Blyleven, and even Helling all had good seasons in Texas, but none had the career impact of Hough or Rogers or the emotional impact of Ryan.

by JBImaknee on Feb 26, 2009 11:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd take Hough over Sundberg

any day of the week including the weekends. Not even close in my book. Sunny Jim was mainly a singles hitter. Sure his defense was great but he always seemed to exist in the shadow of Carlton Fisk and Thurman Munson.

"Evolution happened, now get over it." Michael Shermer

by rodcarew on Feb 26, 2009 7:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

shadow of Fisk and Munson

You mean he wasn’t as well known as the Red Sox and Yankees catchers?

by JBImaknee on Feb 27, 2009 4:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pudge didn't seem to have that problem

It happens that way when you are legitimately great, and not just very good.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Feb 27, 2009 5:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

En Vogue...

We couldn't have known it at the time but we definitely killed the wrong Belushi brother.

by Chad Crudup on Feb 26, 2009 10:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

OT: Hicks on with the Musers

Is this a replay of a previous interview?

Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.

by TheJeezus on Feb 26, 2009 8:58 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I jumped in late...but this is what I got.

Nolan: Provides stability and credibility. “It’s now his club.” Old school approach for pitchers is winning out.

A-Rod: He said Alex called him and apologized and offered to buy him a beer some day and tell him about everything he can’t talk about now. Hicks told him to use the spotlight to break the cycle (pun!) of steroids.

Steroids: Hicks lays blame on the union for protecting the players. (I punch my monitor) He creepily refers to Raffy as “an gifted Adonis”.

Economy: Impacting the FA market, especially older players. Rangers wanted one guy: Sheets. Ben likes Maddux, Texas, etc. and says he wants to come here when he’s healthy.

Stars: Guys are playing like warriors right now. Doesn’t want to make a deal that will mess up the core of the team.

Liverpool: Watched the CL match on DirectTV on his private jet. He also admitted that Rafa blows goats and Steven Gerrard diddles little boys in the shower.

Purgatory's kind of like the in-betweeny one. You weren't really shit, but you weren't all that great either. Like Tottenham.

by TheJeezus on Feb 26, 2009 9:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Forget this sporting Mount Rushmore BS, I'm still more concerned about who's more NOW! Are they ever gonna bring that back? It was so super fun!!! LOL!!! LOL!!!

ESPN is the effing worst.

I hope the man in charge of their programming loses his penis and half of one of his balls in some sort of wood chopping accident.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I hate Michael Young.

"I don’t have any respect for anybody on here. Everyone on here is a fucking asshole who thinks they’re god compared to everyone else." -iorange555, throwing one of his patented sandy-vagina'd hissy fits.

by thedirkatron on Feb 26, 2009 9:40 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

instead of Who's Now...

We could do the 100 Greatest Highlights of all-time or whatever it was, and not play the original commentary! Instead, we’ll have Chris Berman murder each clip with his obnoxious calls!

by cmkelly29 on Feb 26, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

"AMAZING!...

…A BLAST FROM MICKEY ‘PUT THAT AWARD ON THE’ MANTLE!"

Chris Berman, meet raging inferno.

My 2009 New Years Resolution: Quit feeding the trolls.

by ghtd36 on Feb 26, 2009 10:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No love for Rusty...

Ryan was great of course, but how much of that was with the Rangers?

I would put Greer, Sunberg, Hough or even MY on that list over Ryan, and if Hamilton stays healthy and with the Rangers he could be there as well.

I just had a vision of Dirk A. Tron’s head exploding.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Feb 26, 2009 10:10 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

You really should have

Rusty, MY, Mark Mclemore, and David Murphy (little Rusty) there.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Feb 26, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

the baseball player or the tv analyst?

"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract

by tyd3311 on Feb 26, 2009 10:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

why greer

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Feb 26, 2009 11:22 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know he doesn't have...

the best career #’s, but he was a career Ranger and I just loved the way the guy played.

Greer would be more of a sentimental pick for me.

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Feb 26, 2009 11:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

fair enough

thats what i thought, but idk if id put him over nolan especially with nolan being in the position hes in now

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Feb 26, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's absolutely appalling...

…that Matt Kata has not been mentioned.

My 2009 New Years Resolution: Quit feeding the trolls.

by ghtd36 on Feb 26, 2009 10:19 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Al Oliver

You know a guy is underrated when he can’t make the Rangers Mt. Rushmore discussion.

"I saw your act, just didn't make it for me. Just a lot of fluff."

by scoop16 on Feb 26, 2009 11:24 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

huh?

Does that mean someone like Mickey Tettleton is underrated too?

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Feb 26, 2009 11:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure

If he had a couple Silver Sluggers, AS appearances, and the highest BA in team history.

"I saw your act, just didn't make it for me. Just a lot of fluff."

by scoop16 on Feb 26, 2009 11:31 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ah well you just said

someone is underrated “when he can’t make the Rangers Mt. Rushmore discussion.” There are lots of people not making the discussion — we must have lots of underrated players.

"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan

by Dirk Diggler on Feb 26, 2009 11:34 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

we have the most underrated player in the history of the game of baseball

dontchaknow

this guy:

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Feb 26, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

also

he looks like he is about 12 and weighs 145 pounds

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Feb 26, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm pretty sure Oliver doesn't belong in the discussion

Its not that he wasn’t good – but he’s certainly not a top 5 or even top 10 Ranger. Having a few good seasons doesn’t really mean all that much.

Pudge and Palmeiro have strong HOF arguments based solely on their Rangers years.
Gonzalez left the Rangers as almost a sure-HOFer, he just collapsed epically after leaving.
Nolan was a HOFer when he arrived, but certainly helped his legend in Texas.

Other guys mentioned above: Hough, Sundberg, Rogers, Bell, Harrah all had long stays in Texas that were very productive

Even if you look at guys who only played a few years in Texas, like Oliver, he gets overshadowed. ARod’s 3 seasons were historically good. Perry and Blyleven had great years in Texas that were probably more valuable. 1978 saw 5 months of Bobby Bonds near his peak production

by JBImaknee on Feb 26, 2009 11:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm biased, childhood hero

But the numbers weren’t as inflated back then. Compared to his peers, he was a perennial AS, always in the batting race, and a doubles machine before ‘chicks really dug the long ball’. But, I agree he wasn’t here long enough, just wanted to show him some props.

I’d probably go with Bell, Pudge, Hough, & Juando.

"I saw your act, just didn't make it for me. Just a lot of fluff."

by scoop16 on Feb 26, 2009 11:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ruben

probably deserves a little love too. Would’ve thought him to be a lock in ’90.

"I saw your act, just didn't make it for me. Just a lot of fluff."

by scoop16 on Feb 26, 2009 12:06 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

didn't play

with the Rangers long enough, imo

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Feb 26, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Nolan has to be on there.

He’s the most famous Ranger of all time. Put the team on the map, made them quasi-relevant, got his 5000th K and 6th and 7th no-no’s here.

I think Nolan and Pudge are the only two no-doubters.

After that I would go with Igor and Hough, probably.

Unless non-uniform guys count, in which case, gotta put Vandergriff there.

by nivarsity on Feb 26, 2009 1:41 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

wooooo let's do it ya'll!!!

quick someone grab a chisel and a hammer!

we’ll call it Mt. Hushmore

Have any Ranger pitchers gone on the D L today? No? O K I'll check back in 10 minutes.

by BigGuns on Feb 26, 2009 2:11 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

can we put it between TBiA and jerryworld? lol

have rangers mt rushmore on one side and cowboys mt rushmore on the other?

(btw who would go on cowboys rushmore – presuming jerry put himself on there, cuz you know he would - jerry, staubach, e smith, landry?)

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Feb 26, 2009 9:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Instead of having Mt Rushmore for the Cowboys

how about just having The White House as the Cowboy’s shrine.

Get off my lawn.

by DJCahill on Feb 26, 2009 10:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

LOL

Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.

by knockoutking on Feb 27, 2009 11:04 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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