Posnanski on Gobble and Hillman
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 22, 2009 12:57 PM CDT
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PrintJoe Posnanski has an article up at SI on Jimmy Gobble, Trey Hillman, and the differences between good and bad managers...
In particular, he talks about how Gobble was successful at the thing he was supposed to do -- get lefties out -- and was terrible at the thing he wasn't supposed to do -- get righties out.
The problem, Posnanski says, is that Hillman didn't utilize him properly, which highlights his bigger point:
In many ways, the Jimmy Gobble story is a perfect little synopsis of good managing and bad. A good manager has an uncanny way of consistently putting his players in positions where they can succeed. There are no perfect players, but more than that, there are very, very few players who do not have serious and easy-to-define weaknesses in their game. Some hit but don't field, some field but don't hit, some cannot catch up to hot fastballs, some cannot lay off the outside slider, some throw too many pitches, some cannot get lefties out, some do not walk, some are not aggressive enough, on and on and on and on forever. Seems to me that the part of managing that matters most -- and maybe this is where Bobby Cox shines -- is setting up game after game after game so that more of your players get to play to their strengths.
Thanks to Dirk Diggler for pointing out this story
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Umm, ok, but
aren’t we missing the baseball homily that matters most:
…Some pitch, just not very well…
Goyogringo why so bitter this year?
Keith Law on Greg Golson, "He's similiar to Cameron and Hunter in that all three are black."
7 days into quiting smoking
coupled with Jennings to the pen talk…it’ll pass…
NP just checking this is not like you.
Good luck with quiting.
Keith Law on Greg Golson, "He's similiar to Cameron and Hunter in that all three are black."
also noteworthy
the great Hillman may have not been the perfect manager that someone on here thought he was….
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 22, 2009 1:08 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
More importantly
in Wash, we have a manager here who also misuses players, and that’s why so many of us are worried about guys like Jones being overused.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Did the Royals do better in 2008 with Hillman
than they did without him in 2007?
Now go get your fucking shine box.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Mar 22, 2009 8:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well,
Was the AL Central better in 2007 than it was in 2008?
by JarrodPattersonFan on Mar 22, 2009 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions
He's better than Buddy Bell
Awesome.
And according to John Dewan, the Royals had the worst defense in baseball last year, which I know is one of your big managerial touchstones.
Rob Neyer, Rany Jazayerli, Joe Posnanski, and John Barten, all of whom are people who follow the Royals closely and whose baseball knowledge I respect, are underwhelmed by Hillman’s performance thusfar.
Ditto Royals Review:
The Royals went all the way to Japan to hire the next Phil Garner, Tom Trebelhorn, Buddy Bell or Sam Perlozzo.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 22, 2009 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Silly Adam
Daniels didn’t hire him, he must, simply must, be awesome.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Those of us who weren't issued red and blue
knee pads (with a nice little JD embroidered on them) would say that Hillman is a better manager than Ron Washington.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Mar 22, 2009 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions
I wasn't issued kneepads by Rangers management
and have no problems saying that Trey Hillman is a better manager than Ron Washington (guess that means I won’t get little secret emails from Boy Blunder).
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Mar 22, 2009 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions
I have no kneepads
And I don’t think Hillman has demonstrated any particular managerial goodness. Then too, I’d agree with the esteemed Dodger broadcaster today who brought "value of a manager’ up with MLB managers, who nearly all seemed to think it was +/- 3 to 5 games a season. And that the 80% of their work that counts most is not seen during games.
If ever a metric for managerial goodness is derived, I’d like a chance to debunk it. Not al all equivalent to a cost center P&L, for instance.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -
"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce
by Ed Coffin on Mar 22, 2009 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Ed, do you believe Ron Washington
is a better manager than Trey Hillman?
If so, why?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Mar 22, 2009 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes in a word
Not that I think he’s a “good” manager, and comparing one manager to another in isolation is a bit dense (they have different settings, differnt rosters, face different opponents, etc etc – the long list)
Here’s why:
- Knows positional execution and can teach, not ‘order’ or direct
- Gets and gives players confidence
- Knows and follows his role (varies widely GM to GM)
- Understands and admits mistakes
There may be more, but each of the above is not commonly attributed to Hillman (I take some of that back already, Hillman was quoted as saying he made mistakes in how Jimmy Gobble was used).
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -
"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce
by Ed Coffin on Mar 23, 2009 12:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Yet you picked the 2007 Texas Rangers to win 93 games
(they won 75 games) and Trey Hillman went to battle with a much shorter stick than Washington and also won 75 games.
I’m still not sure what kind of manager Hillman will be but he’s a helluva lot better than Washington.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
51-45
To finish the year, with a very short stick.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
How
exactly is he a better manager than Washington? Why is saying both of them suck mean you must be wearing knee pads? You continue to be a joke.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I'm still trying
to find my fucking shine box
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 23, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
oh, yes of course
It was blocked by my notes on how to make idiotic arguments without backing up anything.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 23, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
"Making up an indiotic argument without backing
up anything" ?
Did you look at the standings the last couple of years and the personnel on both teams?
Did you see how Washington’s team stumbled out of the gate both years and quit on him (19-29 down the stretch) last year, barely finishing ahead of the Oakland As?
Did you see how Hillman’s vastly inferior team went 18-8 last September?
Did you see how many more errors Washington’s team made after he took over v. how many fewer errors Hindman’s team made when he took over?
No, of course you didn’t because Boy Blunder hired Ron Washington and not Trey Hillman.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Mar 23, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Hindman?
Freudian slip?
I think it’s funny that you get so riled up about Hillman. Nobody here thinks Washington is greatness just because he was hired by JD. I personally think both managers are overexposed and have a lot to learn.
But, of course Washington is the idiot because he was hired by JD.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 23, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Let's talk personnel...
Who has a better pitching staff – Royals or Rangers?
Who has a better defense – Royals or Rangers?
Who has a better lineup – Royals or Rangers?
Royals win 2 out of 3 of those questions so how is it that the Rangers have better personnel?
Now I know everything is Boy Blunder and Warsh’s fault in your eyes, but players play the game, and those players are on their way due in large part to JD. You have still given no reason as to why Hillman is a better manager than Washington. Of course no one here expects you to actually answer a question without using your common JW talking
points.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I don't really see 2 out of 3 there.
Nevertheless, I would put money on which team has a better five year agregate record going forward.
Of couse, betting anything of value online is likely to get me “Sharky’ed”.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Royals...
pitching and defense last year >>> Rangers pitching and defense.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Common JW talking points
like the standings?
Wins & losses matter to some folks.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
Rodney,
Send any more pms to meet people that have hurt your widdle baseball feelings?
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
Oh
you mean the standings that had the Rangers with a better record than the Royals? Yeah — they do matter I guess.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 23, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Name me one manager...
who would have had a winning record with the pitching staff the Rangers have had the last 2 years smart ass.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I found JW's wardrobe
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 23, 2009 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
This is great...
I would have rec’d it if you didn’t dash the “fucking”.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
yeah I didn't make it
that was the greatness of a google image search for “shinebox”
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 23, 2009 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
An 18-8 September?
Really? That’s your argument. Both managers suck, joker. If Daniels has hired Hillman you’d be all over how terrible a decision he was. Or you’d be claiming that Hillman would be great if Daniels would stop getting in his way.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Whoa don't make things up
"Yet you picked the 2007 Texas Rangers to win 93 games (they won 75 games) and Trey Hillman went to battle with a much shorter stick than Washington and also won 75 games.
I’m still not sure what kind of manager Hillman will be but he’s a helluva lot better than Washington."
My recollection for 2007 was 87-75 IIRC, and that was the season of dismal luck and injuries to starting pitchers – maybe not 12 games worth – but in either case had I predicted 112 wins, it has NO bearing on which is the better manager. Hillman may turn out to be pretty good. To this point, he hasn’t.
I get the impression this is all centered on a dim view of JD and everything he does. As for Wash specifically, I don’t know if it’s JD bias or outright prejudice, and even though I think he’s a mediocre manager, he does bring to the table some elements that a team growing from farm system excellence into MLB roster strengths needs. Those elements are instilling confidence, honing playing skills, turning the skills into coordinated play in the field, and major league situational understanding. Along with some ability to keep veterans content and participative in the growth process of the young’uns.
Hillman might be a slightly better field general, but even tha’s questionable. Hey I don’t discredit your opinions, but please know they are opinions, some are informed opinions, and some purely personal takes. Drop the air of authority, concede the occasional correction or content in a differing opinion, and participate as opposed to simply dismissing other points of view.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -
"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce
by Ed Coffin on Mar 23, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions
lol
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 23, 2009 7:20 AM CDT up reply actions
Hillman should have asked himself...
WWJD?
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
"AMMIITAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABHH!!!"
Hillman is so much better for this thing than that dumbass Washington.
He would have had the 2008 Rangers at least over .500 in The Show. Jonny Donuts fucked up by not hiring the smart guy with local ties.
/JW
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
and had hillman been the rangers coach last year, millwood and padilla would have thrown 200 IP, cj wilson would have had 40 saves, hamilton would have had 197 rbi and 78 HR and kinsler would have had 160 SB and hit 1.444. yes, thats right, 1.444. botts would have hit .350 with 30 HR and 100 RBI also.
JD is the reason the rangers suck.
/JW
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Mar 22, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I will fight clark in a stone circle deathmatch for the rights to the credit for the link.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 22, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
ARRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 22, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
So I wasn't the only one thinking of that commercial when I read the above.
Now blogging again (temporarily) at "Hello Win Column".
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