The Feldman situation
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 26, 2009 12:36 PM CDT
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PrintSo, Nolan Ryan commented last night on the radio that the team was looking at putting Scott Feldman in the bullpen, and Ron Washington acknowledged that that was something being discussed.
This is something that I think is being fueled by concerns and uncertainty over some of the bullpen spots, and struggles by some guys this spring. Three guys -- Frankie Francisco, C.J. Wilson, and Eddie Guardado -- have jobs nailed down.
But the other four spots are in flux, and in particular, there seems to be a gaping hole for your righty setup guy. Joaquin Benoit would have had that spot, but he's hurt. Brendan Donnelly early in camp looked like he might be a fit, but he then struggled and has been released. Derrick Turnbow has been inconsistent. Willie Eyre has apparently impressed, but also missed half of 2007 and all of 2008 due to T-J surgery. Josh Rupe has been terrible. Dustin Nippert is hurt. Warner Madrigal has pitched well but hasn't been a pitcher for that long, and could probably use some more time in AAA.
So Madrigal and Eyre will probably make the team just by default, as the only two candidates who are pitching well, which leaves a couple of slots still open. The Rangers, one would think, would probably prefer to keep Nippert and Rupe around as they are out of options, and let Turnbow try to get his act together in AAA. But they clearly aren't going to be that fired up about having their righty options behind Francisco be Madrigal, Eyre, Rupe and Nippert.
(And by the way, wouldn't this bullpen be looking a hell of a lot better with Juan Cruz out there as the 8th inning setup guy?)
At the same time, the rotation (knock on wood) has been remarkably problem-free, with all five guys who were announced over a month ago rockin' and rollin' along. And Kris Benson has, thusfar, shown enough to have some folks thinking he may be a viable 5th starter.
Which, I would guess, as led to the thought that Scott Feldman could be bumped from the rotation back to the bullpen in a setup role, where he's been in the past, and Benson could stick around as the 5th starter.
Now, remember...while we are in rebuilding mode, we are also in a short-term win-now mode. Ron Washington wants to keep his job, which means not sucking out of the gate, and Nolan Ryan and Tom Hicks want more folks in the stands, which means not sucking out of the gate. After two straight horrendous starts, the organization is clearly prioritizing getting off to a good start this year.
And this, I think, is the thought process that is fueling thoughts of putting Feldman in the bullpen and sticking Benson in the rotation.
I've said before that where I think the team has tended to get into trouble is by over-thinking things, and this is a typical example. You've got a guy, in Feldman, who wasn't great last year, but who was steady and gave you some innings, and who deserves to get a chance to stick in the rotation.
You've got the five guys you said at the start of spring training were going to be in the rotation who have done nothing thusfar to lose their jobs.
And yet, you are wanting to stick Feldman in the bullpen as a short-term fix so you can go with a short-term, one-year, proven mediocrity solution?
Benson, along with Jason Jennings, is supposed to be here as insurance, as this year's Sidney Ponson, a guy who can step in in April or May if someone is hurt or struggling, so you aren't having to put Tommy Hunter or Luis Mendoza back out there when they aren't ready, or rush Neftali Feliz or Derek Holland.
They aren't supposed to be the guys who are here to push one of your young starters -- who hasn't done anything this spring to lose his job -- out of the rotation.
I said before that the Rangers should have signed Juan Cruz, even at the cost of a 2nd round draft pick. That option is out the window. They can still look at trying to pick up a reliever from a team that has excess arms, but at this point, the guys you are going to likely be able to get for the price the Rangers are going to be willing to pay in terms of talent surrendered are going to be of the Derrick Turnbow/Dustin Nippert variety of Gump-box-of-chocolates mystery pack.
Personally, I'd just as soon see the Rangers roll with the guys they have and leave Feldman in the rotation. See of Guillermo Moscoso adapts well to the bullpen in April and consider bringing him up after the first month of the season, if he impresses. See how John Bannister progresses. Consider Neftali Feliz in a Joba-esque bullpen role, if he does well in AAA and there's not a starting job available.
But don't start jacking with the rotation guys, and open up a hole there, in an effort to fill a hole in the pen.
I
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Well put
all of that. If they trust Feldman to be good at pitching, he might as well benefit the team with more innings doing it by starting.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Why is it assumed that Feldman would be better in the bullpen than as a starter?
If that’s not the logic, why not put Benson in the pen?
Disagree.
The fifth starter is not even needed much the frst month anyway and we need help in the pen. Since Scooter tends to struggle after 4 or 5 innings, he is the perfect long man, swing man, etc
Honestly, I wonder if this isn’t about Derek Holland. If they think he is just about there why not put a spare like Benson in the 5 hole until May or June and bring up D – Ho then
Feldman
We don’t know if he struggles after 4 or 5 innings though. Last year he did theres no questioning that. But last year was also his first as a starting pitcher and considering he came into spring training and spent all of spring training as a reliever before converting at the end of ST to expect him to be able to all of a sudden go out and give 6+ innings was a bit much IMO. Now that hes had a full offseason as a starter I would expect him to be able to go longer and deeper into games just fine.
As for the 5th starter my plan would be to send Harrison down to start the year. Have him pitch on the 10th, 15th, and 20th in OKC and be on normal rest for his start on the 25th here. Millwood, Padilla, BMac, and Feldman would be the other 4 starters. Nippert, if healthy, would make the spot start on the 12th. It would also allow you to get more evaluation time for Turnbow and Rupe to see if you want to keep them.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
if the plan is to get off to a hot start...
I don’t think they would plan a spot start 6 days into the season.
Its not planning
Thats the only time a 5th starter would be needed to keep the other 4 on normal rest.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I don't have a problem with it,
let’s get our best 12 pitchers out there. I don’t see Feldman as part of our long term rotation anyway. Again, I respect what he did last year, but he’s just a guy. Odds are by next year he isn’t in our top 5 starters anyway.
I thought it be all warm and shitty, but it just tasted like normal beer. It was still cold.
By the same token, why jack with Feliz?
He is the future ace of this team, and he needs to refine his pitching by starting in AA/AAA. Feldman is a decent, but replacable component on this team. Feliz…not so much.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Feliz
agree, i think he needs to start the year in AA and work on his secondary stuff and hopefully end the year in AAA and maybe break camp next year. there is no need to rush him at this point.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
yep
please, please don’t have him pitching out of the bullpen now.
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
"AMMIITAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABHH!!!"
i agree with adam on this
i love the idea of breaking in a talented arm like Feliz in a bullpen role. he didn’t say we should rush him, but when he looks like he is ML ready, bring him up and let him get his first few innings in a low pressure bullpen spot, so if he struggles he can be removed without critically taxing the bullpen. I don’t know why all teams don’t break in their best young arms this way. As an added bonus, it will help keep his innings down this year.
Im ok with the thought of Scooter in the pen
Benson and Jennings both have shown they can be a 4th or 5th starter possibly even better. So why not put Scooter in the pen to be the long relief guy and let Benson start as 5th. Then you still have Jennings in AAA in case of injury and then Feldman can always fill a starter role if need, which we all hope we wont need.
Feldman has shown he can be a 4th/5th starter too
Why jack with him and yoyo him back and forth between starter and reliever?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
He has options
Thats the only reason
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Yep
But do you really think they would send McCarthy down over Harrison? Especially with the spring McCarthy is having
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
It doesn't look like they are going to send Harrison down either
If we are talking about our opinions though on what the team should do, then McCarthy is a choice to be sent down too.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
i'll throw out the marlon byrd for peter moylon
trade proposal again…but I still doubt the Braves would go for it. Still, there are teams with bullpen surpluses, and we certainly have an OF/DH surplus, so I bet JD is out there pushing a lot of jenga blocks right now to see if any are loose.
i'm betting and hoping
you’re right. Agree with Adam that this would amount to Feldman feeling screwed. And why not use Benson as bullpen help instead of Feldman? Then you reward Feldman for suckin it up last year.
why isn't benson starting today
if he is really a candidate? why “waste” a late ST start on a guy who is no better than your 4th or 5th starter in AAA?
Question...
Why is Guardado a lock for the ‘pen. Talk about a guy who hasn’t looked good. I don’t think he should be a lock by any means right now.
And I would much rather the Rangers mess with Feldman than with Feliz or Holland. Leave those two guys in the rotation in OKC ‘til they are ready to come up for good as starters. I really don’t want to see the Rangers take the Joba route with Feliz.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
i wouldn't call him a "lock"
but someone has to be the second lefty in the pen, and I think the FO is probably more comfortable with Eddie than Gobble. I have been critical of Eddie so far this ST, but he looked sharp last night with good location and first pitch strikes. I am still hoping they can convince Gobble to go to AAA.
been wondering that myself
every day eddie hasn’t exactly looked worthy of a spot.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
I'm not a huge fan of Feldman
And I’ve never understood the rationale that he should be assured of a rotation spot. He’s a guy who I’m happy to run out there if there is no one else, but if it makes more sense to use him as a bullpen arm, that’s fine too.
He was alot better last year than his numbers indicate
he was a product of a manager not knowing when to pull him. His mid 3’s ERA up until the last inning of his starts indicates that to me.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Agrreed
But many of those last innings were only 5th or 6th innings. So doesnt you point prove he would be solid as a 3-4 inning pen guy?? I dont want to run a starter out there where i know his max is 4-5 innings tops.
It was his first season as a starter
he was a reliever used to going 1-2 innings up until the end of spring training last year. To all of a sudden expect him to go 6+ effective innings is a bit much. The fact he was able to go 4 or 5 very effective innings gives me hope he can improve on that
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I just don't see that argument as a favorable one
Being very effective the first time or two through a lineup is all well and good, but if he gets beat up the third time through, he’s not going to be an effective starter.
Maybe you’re right and its just a matter of being used to pitching deep into games. And then hopefully he can be a LAIE. But that is his ceiling, I think, and he’s not even there yet. So its hard for me to get worked up about him being moved to a bullpen role, where his game may be better suited.
he had never started before last year
Never
He had a grand total of 4 starts in the minors to get his stamina up. Whether it was him getting tired or his stuff giving away I don’t know but he deserves another season to show what he can be
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Players don't deserve anything
I’m with you on seeing the value of learning what his limitations really are, and I have respect for his ability to switch to a starter on short notice when the team needed him.
That said, if you’re running the team, you have to weigh several factors – the bullpen would be considerably stronger with Feldman there. Is Benson, starter+ Feldman, reliever better than Feldman, starter + Turnbow, reliever? That’s up for debate. But you make that decision on the merits of the pitchers, not the path by which they got to this point. This isn’t the team being wishy-washy on Feliz; he’s a guy no one thought would ever even see the big leagues and has been valuable for his ability to step into different situations.
Feldman is a stop-gap starter anyways...
until the Felizes and Hollands of the world show up. His best bet for a long-term future with the Rangers is in the pen. And you can flip guys like Benson and Jennings. Turn them into younger players at the trade deadline — that’s assuming of course that the Rangers have someone from the minors to replace them with.
Free Frank Catalanotto
Benson and Jennings don't have any value
You’d be lucky to flip them for a stack of pancakes, no matter how well they perform.
She was a grand old lady...
Feldman long-term
Whoever’s in the back of the rotation will be displaced this year by one of Holland/Feliz, maybe both.
Right now that guy is Feldman. I think the org’s trying to head this displacing effect off, and just move him for a true short-term fix who’s just there to keep the spot warm for the incoming prospect.
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
Feldman
If his future with this team is in fact this year only why not keep him as a starter and trade him this winter? You can get alot more in return for a young starter under team control than a reliever
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
If they are any good..
I doubt feldman has any real trade value or will pitch well enough this year to get it.
the preceding post was a great success.
Why do you say that?
If he goes out and pitches 180+ innings with a ERA around 4.50-4.75 do you think he wouldn’t have any value. Being 26 and under team control for a few more years. I don’t think we’d get a Feliz-esque prospect but a much better one than for Jennings or Benson.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Because I think he has as good a chance to have a 6 era as he does 4.5
Sure he would have more trade value than benson or whoever, but you don’t need to make roster decisions based on the trade value of people who arn’t likely to get anything significant in return.
Like the arguments for keeping laird starting so we could keep his trade value up.. i’d hate to see what we would have gotten in that trade if we hadn’t started him most of the year.
the preceding post was a great success.
Uh, what?
You’d rather jack with Feliz’s development by putting him in the bullpen than putting Feldman in there?
"Was this really necsarry?" - cowpoke/hurler hurley
I don't think...
…having a guy get his feet wet in the bullpen when he debuts in the majors is jacking with his development. I think it is a good way to acclimate a pitcher — particularly a very young pitcher like Feliz — to the majors.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 26, 2009 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions
yes it's a good way to break a pitcher in
but its probably too soon for feliz. let him work on his secondary stuff before sending him to the wolves.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Kenny Rogers started off in the bullpen in the majors, too.
He seemed to develop pretty well and had a pretty nice career.
Nolan Ryan spent a lot of time in the bullpen his first few years, too. I think things turned out pretty well for him.
Johan Santana spent a lot of time in the bullpen his first for years in the majors. I think he’s developed pretty well.
It depends on what kind of polish they need..
In the case of Holland, it could well work fine.
Given Feliz’ need to work on more fundamental things, I’d say he would suffer from starting out in the pen right now.
bullpen
i’d say the bigger argument should be do you want him to develop in the pen currently or give him more time against lesser hitters to refine himself. not whether he should go to the bullpen at all
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Spring Opener
I told you guys waaaaaaaaaay back on the day of the 1st Spring Training game that they would find a way to get Benson in the rotation if he was even decent in ST. Everyone called me an idiot and said it meant nothing. You don’t give the 1st ST start of the year to a NRI that you have no interest in keeping around. The Rangers have been looking since Day 1 to force a rotation spot for Benson and it looks like Feldman is the odd man out.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:20 PM CDT reply actions
1 ST start
You realize they schedule these spring starts well in advance all in the name of getting guys on proper rest for the season right? They only care that Millwood has 4 days rest before the home opener. Same with Padilla before his 1st start. Who starts the 1st ST game has more to do with scheduling than who makes the team
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
okay
I understand that. That still doesn’t change the fact they signed Benson on a Saturday and started him on Wednesday of that same week bumping a guy they had said was in the rotation. That came on the heels of no one will get A game starts except the 5 rotation guys comment from the FO. Now maybe that was coincidence, but I have a really hard time believing they just randomly chose Benson to start that game so early in the Spring with no plans to give him a serious look. It goes along with the Washington wanting to start quick and trusting veterans thing.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
my whole post got deleted
I don’t see it as coincidence that after they named their rotation and said no one but the 5 rotation guys would get A game starts that all the sudden a guy they signed on Saturday would start a game on a Wednesday. Washington needs to win quick, that has been established, and for whatever reason, Benson is a veteran he thinks can help do that.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I recall a lot of pictures of his wife
and zero uses of the word “idiot”.
the preceding post was a great success.
it was inferred
idiot was inferred.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
well
if people could respond to posts on here without name calling and dismissive reply posts, maybe people wouldn’t feel the need to post “I told you so” posts.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
this post?
http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/2/24/770051/spring-opener#12470844
please. theres nothing there.
the preceding post was a great success.
actually
This was the one I was referring to…Not very good research. It was the 2nd comment down.
well seeing as how your response had so much substance, let me reply. Though going point by point through your argument will be tough…
1. Just 1 week ago we heard that it would be almost impossible for anyone other than the 5 guys named to the rotation to get A game starts. Now, the 1st A game has someone not in the rotation getting the start.
2. Kris Benson was signed on Saturday. Wednesday he is starting the Cactus League Opener. Now I don’t think he is going to be the Opening Day starter, but I still think this is a very interesting decision based on the very little amount of time he’s been with the team.
It is my feeling that they aren’t totally sold on at least 1 of their rotation guys, and I think we can all agree with that. I am predicting that if Benson shows anything this Spring he is in the rotation to the start the season. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong, but if I’m right I’m reposting all your dumb sarcastic responses.
That is all
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Feb 24, 2009 2:56 PM PST
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:31 PM CDT reply actions
ha, hypocrite
if people could respond to posts on here without name calling and dismissive reply posts, maybe people wouldn’t feel the need to post "I told you so" posts.
but if I’m right I’m reposting all your dumb sarcastic responses.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 26, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
that wasn't dismissive or name calling
so there was nothing hypocritical about it
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah
calling someone dumb preemptively is a lot different than someone supposedly “implying” your idiocy. My mistake.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 26, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I didn't call the person dumb
I called their sarcastic responses dumb
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
and what does that infer?
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 26, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions
that infers nothing
it says people didn’t take the time to come up with a quality response and instead chose to use insulting language to demean my post.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
Can't we all just get along...or some shit.
When I see a solar eclipse I think "oh no, is the moon eating the sun?"
by Pocket Ninja on Mar 26, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Good point.
When I see a solar eclipse I think "oh no, is the moon eating the sun?"
by Pocket Ninja on Mar 26, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
339
got the reference.
I really am calm. You guys opinion of me or my posts is not going to get me worked up.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions
lol
OK, whatever man.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Mar 26, 2009 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
That post was trying to read into starting benson in the spring opener
Harrison was a little behind so they started a guy who was ready. Thats it.
It turns out that of the veterans brought in Benson is looking the best, and feldman who generally had the least security in his rotation spot has been really bad…..
At the same time the bullpen is weak and feldman has recent experience in the bullpen. So they are CONSIDERING giving benson the 5th starter job and feldman to the pen.
Your leap of logic about the spring opener is still off.
the preceding post was a great success.
I said
The Rangers aren’t sold on one of their rotation guys. I never said which one. It would appear a combination of Feldman not looking great and having bullpen experience means he is the guy they still aren’t sold on. Also, I think a major part of it is Harrison is a JD guy. He was part of the Tex trade that JD will be graded on for many years. If Harrison turns out to be decent as the 4th or 5th piece in that trade, Daniels might finally get a trade “win”. Therefore, I don’t think there was any leap of logic. They hurried to sign Benson, they rushed him to the mound, and they are slowly figuring out a way to get him in the rotation. That was the basis of my original post, and it is still my thought process today.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:47 PM CDT reply actions
JD
That trade is a win regardless of Harrison. We have Salty already as our starting catcher and Andrus looking like our starting SS. Feliz is a top 10 prospect in all of baseball. What Harrison does does not make or break that trade.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
but
doesn’t it look even better if Harrison turns out to be something. JD has been hammered for his trades. Now, he makes his biggest trade ever and gets Salty, Andrus, Feliz, and on top of that he was a “genius” for getting Harrison.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
It looks better
But I hardly think it determines if a guy like Benson makes the club or not
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
imagine
you are JD and you are fighting for your job. You come to the end of ST and their are 3 options for 2 rotation spots. Option 1: a guy you have no ties to. Option 2: a guy you signed as a NRI right before ST. Option 3: a guy you traded the biggest name in your tenure as GM for. I think I’m going to keep the 2 I have ties to and hope it works out for me. I can’t imagine it hasn’t at least crossed his mind.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions
That logic just doesn't make sense to me...
The bext way JD can keep his job is by fielding a team that does well, not by keeping score on how many of “his” guys make the 25.
C’mon, do you SERIOUSLY think that’s part of his thought process??
Yes I do
for a guy who has been slammed for the Soriano trade, the CY and Gonzalez trade, the Danks trade, and even a bit for the Volquez trade, I think he is very cognizant of in a situation where if all things are basically equal, he’s going to try and the guy he traded for in there. He needs all the positive he can get on his trade resume
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Only morons have slammed him for the Volquez trade
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
agreed
but people do do it
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
If he's that short-sighted in his thinking...
then (a) he’s pretty well fooled many folks, (b) he needs to go immediately, and © I’ll help him pack.
The way I look at it
You have two guys for the 5th rotation spot. You are still trying to build the best team for the long term as well as the short term. Both guys are basically the same in terms of what they are going to give you. One is 26 and the other is 31 coming off serious arm troubles. That makes it pretty easy for me.
If Benson was head and shoulders better than Feldman there wouldn’t be an issue but because they are practically the same in results then give me the younger guy who may be here longer.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Hey
I’m not saying it should be Benson. All I’m saying is on the 1st day of ST games they gave us a small indicator of things to come. Benson did not have to be head and shoulders better than Feldman, he just had to be somewhat successful. Having passed that test, he has a chance to be in the rotation.
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
So shouldn't harrison be sent down since Benson replaced him that first ST game?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
No
again, I didn’t say it would be Harrison. In my original post I said a guy like Harrison and the Rangers weren’t sold on one of their starters. Which one, I didn’t know at that time. It appears the answer is Feldman.
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions
And as for the real topic
I really don’t care about this at all. Feldman didn’t earn a rotation spot, he had it by default. If they want him 5th thats fine, but if they want him in the bullpen and benson 5th thats fine too. If benson sucks feldman will be back in the rotation in a month.
Moving harrison of mccarthy for benson would annoy me. Moving feliz/holland back and forth from the pen to the rotation (although an initial one time debut in the pen wouldn’t be a big deal) would annoy me. But feldman spending some time in the bullpen to open the year? Whatever.
the preceding post was a great success.
I agree
Benson and Feldman is a wash. Coin flip with Feldman going to the pen because he’s done it before.
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
normally any end-of-spring
roster tinkering would hardly merit notice, but for some reason, this year’s tinkering, as last years, seems a little unsettling. While I don’t think AdMO had it quite right in his previous post -that the grizzled Ryan, wunderkind JD, time-warp Wash and scrimping Hicks are quivering in their boots at the thought of a 5-15 April – he might have gotten it in this post. They don’t have their eye on the right ball anymore, the “long-term” plan, the one where your young talented players go out and prove themselves, or not, for the season in preparation for 2010 and beyond. Disappointing.
a little cryptic there JB
but if that is an UGH in the resoundingly negative, I’ll just say that if you think you have Feldman all figured out, you’re not the sage you think are.
I don't know what to expect from Feldman
the ‘ugh’ is in reference to this incessant panic by everyone over how a few roster moves are going to possibly destroy everything this team has worked towards in the past 3 years.
There is absolutely nothing about this possible decision that suggests that the Rangers don’t have their “eye on the ball” or decided to go against the goal of having young players develop. This is deciding to possibly put the 5th starter of a bad rotation in the bullpen and use someone else there to start the season. Its just not that big a deal.
But that 5th starter...
is a 26 year old who at the very least could be a nice trade piece as a starter. Putting him in the pen diminishes alot of that potential value unless you are putting him in high leverage situations which it doesn’t sound like they are going to do.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
But there are so other many aspects to this
As Cahill points out below, there will be plenty of time to get Feldman into the rotation. The Rangers will have well over 5 starters this season.
While Feldman can be kept in a holding pattern in the bullpen (and Harrison in the minors, if necessary), Benson and Jennings really can’t be. At some point, the team has to either go with them in major league games or let them go.
And frankly, worrying about maximizing Feldman’s potential future trade value seems like a very secondary concern to actually fielding the best team.
Yep
If Feldman and Benson are a wash, which is probably close to accurate, then wouldn’t you go with the 26 year old instead of the 31 year old coming off serious arm injuries?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Not if the 26 year old is a better option for the pen than the 31 year old.
That being said, are we REALLY that hard up for news that the mere fact that someone said they had thought about something causes so much angst.
Quite frankly, I’d be much more upset if they WERE NOT thinking about lots of options and contingencies.
Is he really a better pen option?
Just because he used to be out there and Benson hasn’t does that mean he is better? If all he is going to be asked to do is long relief do you not think Benson could handle that?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I don't know...
but a lot of baseball minds seem to think the irregular use in the pen is worse for recovering arms than consistent use.
To me
this is very much part of the long term plan. Is Scooter a starter on a championship club? Nope. Is he a swing man, long man, spot starter on a championship club? Yes, I would say he could fit that. It seems like slowly but surely the pieces for future success are coming togethor
If that were the case...
…then I’m not sure why they converted him from a reliever to a starter last offseason.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 26, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
I would say they converted him because of the desperate straits their pitching was in last year
what I am saying is that as the team gets a little better every year, people can begin to slide into positions where they can help the club more. I view this as a sign of progress that there are not as many grabbing people to plug in a hole situations and more orderly moves that show a plan. We’re not there yet but over the next couple of years we should be getting closer.
BTW, I love me some Scooter and I hope no one thinks I am dissing him because what he did last year was heroic in my eyes
The weren't in desperate need
when they made that decision, only afterwards when people went down in quick succession. Their intention was to develop him as a starter over the course of the year in AA. Also, this idea that a player “is what he is now” is not really tenable as a first principle unless the guy is 35 and clearly at his nadir. People seem all too willing to make this leap when projecting players…
Yep
I imagine they had no intention of bringing Feldman up until June at least last year but a ton of injuries happened and they were forced to bring him up early mostly due to his 40 man status. And they knew full well then that this spring they would have young starters vying for rotation spots so this isn’t a surprise for them
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
While this team might remotely contend
for the division this year with the chances improving next year, it won’t if sniff championship caliber status until 2011. If holland and Feliz front the rotation next year(without the addition of a young veteran frontline starter), expect them to put in the kind of season that Danks did his first go around; even an ace needs a year of seasoning. So with that said, running Benson and Jennings out their as starters (or even worse, relievers) does not give me a rise…
Adam
I haven’t read the comments so this has probably been addressed, but when Holland is deemed ready a month or two into the season, who do you displace from the rotation, assuming all five are healthy?
Not Adam but heres my answer
If all 5 starters are healthy that probably means this club is doing pretty well. If thats the case I look to move one of the veterans and if it takes until the ASB then Holland can wait
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I'd cross that bridge when I came to it
If everyone in the rotation is doing well enough that there’s no obvious candidate to bump, then presumably you are in a pennant race, and you may not want to bring up Holland just yet.
If you aren’t in a race, you look at moving Padilla or Millwood.
And I wouldn’t be averse to putting Holland in the pen for a month or two internship, the way I suggested with Feliz, as a middle or long man to get his feet wet.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 26, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Feliz or Holland
in the pen. I’m down with it. Earl Weaver did it all the time and it certainly didn’t hurt David Price last year.
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
If it's May 20
And Holland is 5-1, 2.10 at OKC, holding runners and fielding his position, etc., and Texas is 4.5 games out with 140 to go, would you bring him up to get his apprenticeship underway (and out of the way with an eye toward having him locked in as part of the rotation in 2010, like Harrison in 08-09)?
by Jamey Newberg on Mar 26, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
If the Rangers are 4.5 out on May 20th
it means that at least one of the rotation isn’t being effective, and you may as well cut your losses with them and put Holland in.
Probably not
He has 26 innings above A-ball. I don’t see there’s a rush to get him up here that soon.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 26, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Is that including his playoff run?
I don’t see any reason not to include those innings.
the preceding post was a great success.
Not me.
While I love me some Holland as much as the next guy, it’s hard for me to look past the fact that he’s only played four games in AA or above, however spectacular they may have been.
My 2009 New Years Resolution: Quit feeding the trolls.
Aaaaaand AJM pretty much said the same thing I did.
/facepalm
My 2009 New Years Resolution: Quit feeding the trolls.
So we are only gonna play 22 games in the first 6 weeks of the season?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I think Holland
should stay down there a bit longer than that. Give him until June or July at least if possible. He rocketed up to AA last year and didn’t spend much time there, let him simmer in AAA for a couple of months before bringing him up.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Fine.
June 20. July 20. We’re peripherally in contention, all five SP’s are healthy.
Who does Holland displace?
by Jamey Newberg on Mar 26, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
No one
He waits until either we trade someone or he comes up into the bullpen which I don’t endorse but if we are in a playoff race might as well have all the best ML ready arms up as possible.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Depends on the situation
If all 5 SPs are healthy and pitching well, and we are only peripherally in contention, trade Padilla or Millwood.
If all 5 SPs are healthy but one or more isn’t pitching well, have him replace whoever isn’t pitching well.
If we are close enough to contending that we don’t want to move Millwood or Padilla, bring Holland up to pitch out of the bullpen.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 26, 2009 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions
yo AdMo
remind me again just how hard you were agitating for TX to sign Cruz? I seem to recall a “Meh” interest at most…
Me on Cruz
And for what the Royals gave him, I absolutely would have wanted Texas to do that.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 26, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
they weren't in desparate states
when they made that decision only afterwards when people went down in quick succession. Their intention was to develop him as a starter over the course of the year in AA. Also, this idea that a player “is what he is now” is not really tenable as a first principle unless the guy is 35 and clearly at his nadir…
indeed
he was a guy that you could get (and was worth getting) long-term at a bargain rate in this market
You would trade Padilla or Millwood...
…if you were arguably in contention with half a season to go?
by Jamey Newberg on Mar 26, 2009 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions
It depends on where you stand
Billy Beane traded Joe Blanton when they were 6 games out in July last season. If the Rangers are 5-6 games out in July, still are peripherally in the race but aren’t hard-core contenders, I don’t have a problem with doing that.
I just don’t see that moving Feldman out of the rotation now so that there’s a place for Holland in June or July in the rotation needs to be a priority, or is all that wise.
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 26, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
And I'm not sure I love the idea
…of Feldman in the 8th. But the RH side of the 8th inning role, to me, may be more important right now than the 5th starter (especially with all the April off-days), and if the club thinks Feldman is our best bet in the 8th, I’m OK going with Benson at number five until Holland is ready.
by Jamey Newberg on Mar 26, 2009 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I have my doubts
that everyone will be healthy until June or July. Holland will get his chance.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Holland and Feliz
I don’t think either of them should see the majors this year, or, at the earliest, before September.
by Darrell McKown on Mar 26, 2009 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions
May 20?
In a word, NO (and the emphasis there is the same one that Sen. Ted Stevens made famous). No need to bring them up unless someone is injured and even then there will be other options that I would consider first. If a pitcher is traded at the deadline, I would have to consider it depending entirely on the state of the rotation/division standings. In addition, I could care less about having Holland or Feliz in the bullpen this season unless the pen completely implodes like last year, and even then…. Let them pitch in the pen in sept.
Assuming all five are healthy
isn’t an assumption that has paid off too well.
The one constant with the Rangers for the last 20 years or so is that there will be glaring holes in the rotation by may or June and by the end of the year, we will have seen around a dozen starters.
"The idea that the Rangers are going to be a solid contender for a number of years is a fantasy." - Adam J. Morris
by DJCahill on Mar 26, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Missing the point.
But that’s probably my fault for not making it clear enough.
Oh well.
by Jamey Newberg on Mar 26, 2009 3:00 PM CDT up reply actions
This is the problem with all the handwringing
(not Jamey’s Holland question, which is somewhat peripheral to the Feldman debate).
It is just not realistic to expect that the current Rangers top 5 – Millwood, Padilla, BMac, Harrison, Feldman (or whoever steps in here) – will pitch more than 135 games or so between them. One (or more) of those guys will go on the DL for an extended period, one (or more) will be ineffective. There will be opportunities galore for everyone’s favorite Ranger pitcher to get their time in the rotation.
Then why put Feldman...
…in the bullpen to start the season, if you think you’re going to have to put him back in the rotation anyway?
by Adam J. Morris on Mar 26, 2009 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions
If you want to see Benson have a few starts before his opt out date
and boost up the bullpen at the same time, there is some logic to it. The bullpen is in rough shape right now, moving Feldman there gives you some flexibility, and observing Benson some more in the process.
I’m not really arguing that it should be that way. Only that its not that big a deal.
give Bensen
a shot as your #5, then Jennings. If they don’t work out you can evaluate your options then.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Bensons opt out date is based on making the team
Not being a starter or not
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
is that
another service year deal or was there another reason.? I haven’t had a chance to read up on it
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 2:19 PM CDT reply actions
They won't say its for service time
But i’m pretty sure everyone knows thats what its about
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I figured
bring him up in May and let him roll
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Mar 26, 2009 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions
"The Feldman Situation"
Isn’t that a Robert Ludlum novel?
"I think we have avoided a recession." -- Jim Nussle, White House Budget Director, 31 July 2008
Sounds more like a political scandal
Like a presidential appointee who cant seem to figure out the need to pay taxes. Purely hypothetical, of course
Feldman
I wish I had time to read all these replies. There are a lot of them and no doubt there are many good ones. But here’s the way I see him:
Feldman is really still an unknown. I think we do know that he’s a big league pitcher. Whether he’s a decent, good, or bad big league pitcher is what we do not know.
Another thing we do know is that he was asked to do a lot more than anyone ever anticipated last season. I think we can all agree than in general he was effective, but never had the time to really make the transition between starting and relieving so he simply got gassed. In fact I’m surprised we didn’t get a rotator cuff report on the guy over the winter. How would he do with better stamina? It could be that he’d be a better pitcher.
There’s also the total overhaul of his delivery. He was a new pitcher. Did teams learn what he was all about, or was he just too tired to effectively make adjustments?
Even still, without looking at the numbers I’d say he was one of the Rangers’ better starting pitchers last year. Not saying a lot, granted, but it’s something.
So I think they need to find out about him in the starter role. I read enough of the comments that I saw where some were saying it’s a moot point what they do with him because younger pitchers are going to knock him out of the rotation anyway. To me that’s very wishful thinking. There’s a reasonable probability that neither Holland nor Feliz will be decent MLB starters. I realize people don’t want to think about that, but it is definitely a possibility.
So I do not agree at all if Benson is in the 5th starter role over Feldman. At the beginning of the year it may not matter so much with all the off days and rain outs, but I’d still like to see him in the rotation. Benson simply isn’t in the long term plan and it makes no sense for him to be starting games over someone who potentially could be with the team for a while.
Win now to save Washington? That may be what they’re doing but it’s stupid. I don’t hate him as much as many of you guys do but if they’re going to come out of camp playing clown baseball for the third year in a row, he should be fired. It doesn’t matter how the starting pitchers are doing. If players are making mistakes constantly all over the field and on the base paths like the last two years, there’s a problem with training camp. If they ever hope to compete they can’t be digging a deep hole in April every season. I can forgive the first training camp, but not the second until I see a different result.
So the manager is expendable, and player development shouldn’t be sacrificed to save his ass.
And I would have a hard time believing that Daniels is in the hot seat just yet. Under him the farm system has gotten so much better he deserves a little slack and would probably get it.
by Black Francis on Mar 26, 2009 4:04 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
good lord.
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.
by iorange555 on Mar 26, 2009 5:08 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Nothing.
Just guessing you don’t twitter much.
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.
I signed up for twitter...
…a few weeks ago and messed around with it for about two hours over three days before realizing that it has no real purpose. So, no, I don’t twitter much.
Don’t see what that has to do with anything.
by Black Francis on Mar 26, 2009 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Lol
Oh right, my bad Mr. Adam. fixes tie 140 character limit.
Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me.
Ah.
Well I do tend to write a lot now and then. Especially after work…it’s therapeutic.
by Black Francis on Mar 26, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions
This doesn’t bother me too much at this point. There would have to be a period where he can build his endurance up a little if you’re going to put him back into the rotation later, but that’s about all you’re risking. You’re not giving up an option, and you’re talking about guys who probably have pretty similar ceilings as starters this year. It mostly boils down to just how much Benson has in the tank, and I haven’t seen or heard quite enough to have much of a personal opinion on that as of yet. We’ll find out pretty fast once the season starts, even with the lessened role of the 5th starter early.
Along the lines of something that Adam mentioned, I view this bullpen quandary as hopefully a short term one. You have premium arms in Madrigal, Moscoso and Strop who all seem to just need a little time – if things go right – to get themselves ready for some pretty high leverage roles. Maybe Feldman and Wilson can get you do that, and around the time that those guys are ready, the first need for Feldman to help stabilize the rotation crops up.
Here’s what I find intriguing about Feldman, though. He has a pretty resilient arm. You’d have to see how it works out, but I wonder if he couldn’t be a two-inning guy on the “good side” of the pen, more than trying to fill a late one inning setup role. If CJ Wilson is healthy, I don’t know why you wouldn’t feel like he could handle the 8th inning regardless of what types of hitters are due up. He was a reasonably solid closer before getting hurt, after all. In games where you have a lead, starter goes 5-6-7, Feldman pitches whatever of the 6th and 7th are necessary, Wilson the 8th, Francisco the 9th.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam
by Brett Perryman on Mar 26, 2009 6:34 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
A poor man's Scott Shields
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
This makes a lot of sense to me
I was kind of irked about this last night, but the more I think about it, the less I think it matters, since I don’t think Feldman is a starter in the long-term anyway. Benson will either suck or he’ll be this years Sidney Ponson (turn in a couple good months and then suck) – either way, his usefulness should be expended by the time Holland is ready for the jump to the bigs, and placeholding for him is all that really matters here.
As for Feldman, considering I think he’ll be a swingman for the longterm anyway, I don’t see how him pitching out of the bullpen again can hurt – heck, it’s actually just sliding him into his eventual role.
She was a grand old lady...
Feldman
This might concern me if he was actually good, but he’s not. I don’t think someone with an ERA+ of 83 last season (and a career ERA+ of 90) necessarily “deserves” to get a chance to stick in the rotation. I think people are over-rating him because he wasn’t terrible last year. Had either Sheets worked out or Hurley’s shoulder not blown up, he would likely have been in the bullpen anyway.
Benson has been better every season he’s been in the majors than Feldman was last year. If Feldman is in the rotation in a season we expect to be good, odds are we aren’t meeting that expectation. His only chance to be part of a good Rangers team is to be part of the bullpen, so I don’t see much harm in putting him there now.
by Darrell McKown on Mar 26, 2009 10:26 PM CDT reply actions
I don't think that it's completely fair to say
…that what you saw last year in total is all you can hope for from Feldman as a starter. There are a lot of mitigating factors, two most prominent two being that he was using that arm angle and was starting for the first time in several years and the first time since his first pro season. He pretty obviously wore down and had a much, much better ERA+ a few starts before the end of the season. He’s spent most of his pro time as a reliever, so he hasn’t had occasion to consistently develop his third pitch. His first 112 innings (after another 12.2 in the minors) he had a 4.87 ERA. for his last 39 he was 6.64. His previous career high was 86 IP, and that was in 2005.
That’s not to say that he’s got big potential in the rotation, but I think that you can say that at this point you can say that he has the potential to be at that 4.87 number or a little better, and that’s not really something to sneeze at for this organization and in this ballpark.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam
by Brett Perryman on Mar 26, 2009 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Feldman
If he’s in the rotation in two or three years ahead of the majority of McCarthy, Harrison, Feliz, Holland, Main, Beavan, Perez, Hunter, Hurley, Wieland, Boscan, Ramirez, Kiker, and a free agent signing or two, then this organization is a complete failure in developing pitchers.
by Darrell McKown on Mar 26, 2009 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions
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