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Ryan (NY): How good can Wilmer Font be? Does he have a chance to make a Feliz-ian type leap in the next couple years?

SportsNation Keith Law: Yes - the stuff is almost as good as Feliz's, perhaps equal to it, and the delivery's a little better suited to starting. But missing a whole year with arm and weight issues really hurts your prospect status until you show they're behind you.

Allyson, Dallas [via mobile]: Keith, the other day Buster Olney was previewing the AL West and said Matt Holiday is the best hitter in the division. I wouldn't even put him in the top 5. 1. Hamilton 2. Guererro 3. Ichiro 4. Kinsler 5. Chris Davis, yes Chris Davis. Thoughts?

SportsNation Keith Law: Guerrero doesn't belong on that list any more. Hamilton's better than Holliday. Kinsler is if you're talking offense relative to position. Wow, that division is really bad.

SportsNation Keith Law: And Chris Davis ... come on. It was fun while it lasted.

Dave, Denver: KLaw, you not like Chris Davis? Seems like a 22 year old that hit like he did last year would be a pretty high on your list of players. Especially, hitting in the Rangers lineup in that ballpark.

SportsNation Keith Law: He's become extremely overrated over the course of about half a year of playing time. And the fact that he's in that ballpark doesn't make him a better player - it might make him a better fantasy pickup, but it doesn't affect his core skill set.

about 3 years ago Canseco_tiny hightowersmith 187 comments 0 recs  | 

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Ichiro isn't one of the best hitters in the West anymore either

unless slapping singles with a SLG of .380 makes you a top 5 hitter.

Kinsler is in the top 5 West hitters regardless of position. When you consider position, he’s the most valuable hitter easily.

by JBImaknee on Apr 2, 2009 3:50 PM CDT reply actions  

Wow

Dissing my man, Chris Davis. This doesnt sit well with me at all

by BEW on Apr 2, 2009 5:27 PM CDT reply actions  

Here we ago again

Davis slugged .541 at home and .558 on the road.
8 HR 29 BI at home, 9 and 26 on the road in 19 fewer AB’s.

Keith Law is always dissing Ranger hitters because of the Ballpark,
which statistcally is not even in the top ten most hitter friendly parks over the last three years.

by Evil Monkey on Apr 2, 2009 5:39 PM CDT reply actions  

Stop using home road splits.

Texas helps hitters. Performing worse at home than on the road could just as easily mean that his numbers “should” have been even worse, but were buoyed by the ballpark.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Apr 2, 2009 8:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

Logically, it makes sense that Texas helps hitters

But how large is the effect? It’s been something of a ongoing point here that statistically, Texas has been much closer to a neutral park than a extremely hitter-friendly one according to park factors. Does it turn a .450 slugging guy into a .500 one? Does it inflate home run totals by x%?

by Telegraph on Apr 2, 2009 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

$

It should read – “recently, Texas has been much closer to a neutral park than a extremely hitter-friendly one”

by Telegraph on Apr 2, 2009 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

"Does it inflate home run totals by x%?"

At the Ballpark the Rangers have hit 206 more home runs than on the road since 1994. An average of 14 per year as a team. They have averaged 208 total HR’s per year. A 30 home run hitter would have 14.4% of those 14 which equals 2. Therefore a 30 home run hitter in Arlington becomes a 28 home run hitter elsewhere.

by Evil Monkey on Apr 2, 2009 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

My hell...

that’s HUGE, someone get out the humidor!

"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates

by slc ranger on Apr 3, 2009 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

The runs park factor is what, about 107?

And CO/ARZ play in the 115 to 120 range? So yes, but 107 is still significant. I believe you take the square root of a park factor to adjust OPS. So, sqrt(1.07) is 1.034. So a .700 OPS is neutralized to .677 OPS in a neutral park. That’s about half a win of value over a full season, per player.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Apr 3, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Lets make this a universal rule

No assuming that when someone has a 900/700 split he is actually just flatly a 700 ops hitter.
Obviously you didn’t do that, just saying.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

wait?

you’re saying that road splits are not a valid way to hold park factors constant? because the other factors that go into playing on the road are prevalent?

let me ask you, how exactly does one come up with park factor numbers?

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 8:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

x
Stop using home road splits. Texas helps hitters. Performing worse at home than on the road could just as easily mean that his numbers "should" have been even worse, but were buoyed by the ballpark.

I guess he is saying that if the home numbers are higher, his numbers are inflated because Arlington is such a hitter friendly park. If his road numbers are higher, he obviously sucks because Arlington buoyed his numbers over what they should be, so again drop his overall numbers to adjust.

To me, that makes no sense.

by FuturePants on Apr 3, 2009 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm saying ONE player's home/road stats over ONE season are highly variable.

Include a full team, plus their opponents, over a number of seasons, then regress a bit.

There are arguments that certain players take advantage of certain parks more than other players, but that’s only important answering some questions, and there are much better ways of addressing that question that a single season’s splits.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Apr 3, 2009 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

WOOOSSSHHHH!

There go my pants, flying around the room…

Thank you, Mr. Wilmer Font!

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Apr 2, 2009 5:50 PM CDT reply actions  

Good to see you guys are finally coming around

I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.

"I'm as passionate and knowlegeable as any fan out there." Josey Wales

by Brian Thomas on Apr 2, 2009 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh, I think we've all been there

but the injuries keep me from getting my hopes too high yet.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 2, 2009 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep

She was a grand old lady...

by LSJ on Apr 2, 2009 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

I recall a few "let's wait till he's done something past rookie ball" comments as well

Not saying you did, but that was a familiar refrain.

I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.

"I'm as passionate and knowlegeable as any fan out there." Josey Wales

by Brian Thomas on Apr 3, 2009 5:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

No, Font has been my favorite minor leaguer since Z broke him down for me shortly after we signed him

I don’t remember too much dismissal of Main. Hell, he was #1 for many, as you know, despite his injuries and whatnot.

I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.

"I'm as passionate and knowlegeable as any fan out there." Josey Wales

by Brian Thomas on Apr 3, 2009 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah

the Rangers has better put AJ at 1B.

Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year

by RangerMad on Apr 2, 2009 6:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or trade him to the Mets

like Sickels said.

Remember to retire Fin's number, Mark.

by jonthefon on Apr 2, 2009 9:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think it's legit to have questions about Davis

but Klaw seems to be overreacting a bit to the present hype.

We didn’t think a whole lot of Davis and I and many others didn’t think he would be anything special two years ago. Then we got excited about what he might be. Then we splooged all over ourselves while he destroyed baseballs last year, to the point where we may now be overestimating his ceiling a bit. Some here talk about him as if he’s a lock to hit 40 HRs every year.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 2, 2009 10:24 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I agree with just about all of this.

I’m with Keith that Davis has become pretty overhyped, but I do think he seems to be underrating him in an overcompensating response.

I do think there are some questions about Davis and too many people are just assuming he’s going to be awesome.

by philkid3 on Apr 3, 2009 2:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

bite your tongue sir!

Chris Davis will hit at least 330 with 66HR and 211RBI while also playing gold glove defense and kissing babies in his campaign to become Texas Governor in ’10

by bushe on Apr 3, 2009 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

yeah

the “Chris Davis is the best bet out there to hit 70 home runs” articles are a tad silly…

by JBImaknee on Apr 3, 2009 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

i don't agree with his CD sentiments

but i think it was an overreaction to an equally ridiculous statement. Chris has a ton of talent, but the contact concerns didn’t just evaporate overnight. I am surprised Law doesn’t give more credence to the improvement he has shown over the last two years, though, as evidence that he does possess the ability to improve. I think the ghost of Kevin Maas has hurt talent evaluators’ initial reaction to Davis’ success, just like Sammy Sosa’s ghost has hurt people’s opinion of Jones around here (same with Ponson and Benson).

I would say the top 3 are definitely Hamilton, Holliday and Kinsler, and I would still put Ichiro in the top five (if I need a two out single late in the game, there isn’t a hitter I’d rather have up there). I have no idea who the fifth would be. The Angels could be one of the top offensives in baseball and yet they don’t really have a “stud” in their lineup.

by clark on Apr 2, 2009 6:23 PM CDT reply actions  

would you be surprised if davis is the 5th best hitter in the west this year?

just flat out hitting, not relative to position.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

i certainly wouldn't say

it’s an absurd statement. But I’m sure Law would somehow explain it away.

by SteveP on Apr 2, 2009 6:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

5th would be

MY of course.

(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."

by mtex on Apr 2, 2009 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Abreu is a more valuable hitter than Ichiro

singles are pretty worthless, and Abreu walks almost as often as Ichiro singles, and walks are almost as valuable (essentially equal value if you are batting leadoff in Seattle’s putrid lineup)

by JBImaknee on Apr 3, 2009 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Walks and singles are not the same thing

They are nowhere close. The only similarity is you get one base.

9th inning down by a run with a guy on second. What do you want more? A single or a walk?

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Apr 3, 2009 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

Obviously singles are better than a walk

But Ichiro had an OPS last year of .747. He had an OBP only 50 points higher than his batting average, and a SLG only 76 points higher. 33 extra base hits, 180 singles, 51 walks.

If you’re batting .360, then yeah, single all day long. If you’re batting .310, you’d better be hitting doubles or homers or adding some walks to that line, otherwise you’re a pretty league average player. Maybe not in style, but in offensive production.

Its not a productive line. And yeah, the guy who can hit a single when needed is great when you have the World Baseball Classic scenario. But most of the time, he’s not up in the 9th inning, down by a run, with a guy on second. Almost every other time, he’s up there alone, with no one on.

by JBImaknee on Apr 3, 2009 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

He also stole 43 bases

So 43 of those singles turned into doubles

By comparison Ian Kinsler hit 41 doubles and stole 26 bases.

If Kinsler didn’t have the HR edge on Ichiro they would be very similar but Kinsler would be the better OPS guy simply because he hit more doubles. Even though they basically both had 65 doubles when you add in SBs

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Apr 3, 2009 3:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

You can't just turn steals into doubles

A single and a steal doesn’t drive a runner in from first and they have the downside of getting thrown out a third of the time. Well, for most people, obviously ichiro has been an incredibly efficient base stealer.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 3, 2009 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well like JB said
Almost every other time, he’s up there alone, with no one on.

They both hit leadoff so a double with no one on and a single and a steal with no one on are the same thing. Scoring from 1st on a double is not a guaranteed thing. Especially since most bottom of the order players aren’t speedy.

My point is if both players had 200 hits with 15 being triples and home runs but one had 40 doubles and 20 steals and the other had 20 doubles and 40 steals they would be almost identical. The only difference being the guy with more doubles had a higher slugging percentage and thus a higher OPS when in reality they are virtualy identical production wise.

Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.

by bigsteve on Apr 3, 2009 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nowhere close?

Walks are worth about .3 runs better than the average outcome, while singles are worth about .5 runs above average. Outs are about -.3 runs. So, relative to an out, singles are .8 runs better, while walks are .6 runs better, meaning walks have about 75% of the value of a single, when the alternative is an out.

Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.

by Sky Kalkman on Apr 3, 2009 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hm
Walks and singles are not the same thing

Agree.

They are nowhere close.

Disagree.

And I don’t make evaluations based on single, uncommon situations which are not in a player’s design.

by philkid3 on Apr 3, 2009 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I know KLaw must be aware of his minor league track record

But I’ve found that most naysayers arn’t, at least not fully.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 6:24 PM CDT reply actions  

The knowledgeable naysayers that I've seen

pull themselves away from Davis-specific facts and choose not to focus on how quick his ascent was, and they like to look primarily at his ARL in AA, AAA and the majors. Their conclusion is that the swings and misses outweigh the positives enough that they expect a pretty big step backward as pitchers adjust to him. Right or wrong, I buy into his unique skill set and remarkable ability to adjust to new levels and new things easily, myself.

by Brett Perryman on Apr 2, 2009 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

I personally don't know which to buy.

I don’t have enough reason to assume he has a unique skill that allows him to maintain a high level of offensive production without anything resembling plate discipline. But I also don’t have enough reason to assume he can’t.

So I am neither down or high on Davis (outside of the high that comes with being an excited fanboy), I’m waiting and seeing. I do think there is reason for concern, though.

by philkid3 on Apr 3, 2009 2:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

Seriously.

I’ve said before LSB is one of my favorite team blogs, but this thread is appalling.

I had Davis at #69 on my top 100 last winter:
http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/insider/columns/story?columnist=law_keith&id=3222233

I’m well aware of his track record and I think he’s a very good low-OBP power hitter. All I said today is that he’s being wildly overrated. His performance from last year is unsustainable unless he massively improves his contact rate which, given the length of his swing and his age, isn’t that likely. Calling me a “naysayer” is absurd. I’m a realist: He’s not likely to repeat 2008.

BTW, SteveP loses the thread. It’s just not that complicated an argument, and he managed to whiff entirely.

Font really is ridiculous. You should have seen the Mariner pitchers’ reactions when he started throwing the last day I saw him.

by Keith Law on Apr 2, 2009 6:40 PM CDT reply actions  

Thanks for stopping by.

More Font details, if you may.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Apr 2, 2009 6:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

The easy velo

was what impressed the M’s kids the most. Just that he was 94-98 like he was playing catch. Of course, when we told them Font was 19 they all started laughing, so there is that.

by Keith Law on Apr 2, 2009 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ah, thank you very much. Very nice to hear.

BT, you check that?

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Apr 2, 2009 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh yeah

I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.

"I'm as passionate and knowlegeable as any fan out there." Josey Wales

by Brian Thomas on Apr 3, 2009 5:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

And evidently, the M's prospects

doubt his age.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Apr 3, 2009 6:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for coming on the blog Keith,

Can you give your comp for Davis?
 Thanks.

"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.

by Kinslerhomer on Apr 2, 2009 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Davis

I do think he’s getting vastly overrated recently, mostly by the fantasy crowd.
He’s got a great skill set and will hit for power but the guy isnt going to give a high avg and 40+ hr’s or anything.

On the Font front, i’m dying to see a full season out of the guy this year.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Apr 2, 2009 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Current

Seamonkey great.

"Come on man you have to admit the average guy in a baseball clubhouse...... is relatively a douchebag." BGL.

The 2008-2009 Dallas Mavericks are the biggest teases in the world.

by sprite on Apr 2, 2009 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

true.

it’s not like there’s a vast majority calling for him to hit cleanup or even 5th in the order. He’s been consistently hitting lower in ST batting order, and while he’s hit well, the K:BB is almost 3:1

(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."

by mtex on Apr 2, 2009 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Above I said I think Davis is becoming overrated.

I would like to point out I mean it’s more the fantasy crowd than LSB folks (though I do think LSB might be overlooking his plate discipline a little too readily).

by philkid3 on Apr 3, 2009 2:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Full year of Font

I figure he’s in extended to start but looking forward to hearing his assignment. Obviously Feliz comps don’t make one think of stagnation at a certain level…

"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks

by hightowersmith on Apr 3, 2009 9:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

I find your overreaction to our overeaction dreadful.

Seriously, there are 4-5 comments and only one of them actually insulted your statement, yet alone you.

If you don’t think Chris Davis can maintain 2008 level production, then he isn’t a very good 1b. For someone who clearly has a lot of supporters, is characterizing that as “naysaying” really “absurd”? Did that particular phrase recently become a lot more insulting than I thought?

Chris Davis’s 5 projections on fangraphs equal out to about what he did last year and there are plenty of other professionals who think he can surpass what he did last year. Naysayer.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 6:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't see it.

But ok.

For the record, “naysayer” does not mean unholy bastard who hates chris davis and should be banished from the Earth. It means someone who doesn’t particularly believe in him relative to what others are thinking. Essentially laughing at those who believe he can repeat would seem to fall into that category.

I don’t think pablo sandoval is going to live up to the hype. Now Im a naysayer to!

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

too*

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

projections

wow.

looking at them really does reveal how absurd law’s reaction is.

James has Davis’ batting average going up with his BABIP going down
Marcel has Davis’ batting average staying the same with his BABIP going down

The other 3 projection systems do have his BA (and OBP) going down but nothing catastrophic.

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pecota is lower than all of those

at least the weighted mean is.

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Apr 2, 2009 7:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Marcel

Marcel is good at what it does – it’s just that people don’t generally take into account that it doesn’t use minor league numbers whatsoever. Davis’s projection is simply a regressed 2008 major league stint.

It’s hard to tell what James gets wrong (or whoever is running the James projections – unless something’s changed, which I doubt given the usual team contracts, James hasn’t actually run the James projections in a very long time). I suspect that they’re still using the out-of-date levels of play that the original MLEs were calculated from – translations have gotten harsher in the last 10 years, with players getting selected to the majors more efficiently and Japan being a far more serious option for the top players not given chances in the majors (20 years ago, Roberto Petagines and Greg LaRoccas play at AAA forever).

--
Dan Szymborski
dan@baseballprimer.com

by D.Szymborski on Apr 2, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Outdated MLEs

that would explain a lot. James has Davis at a .403 wOBA. .360 seems a lot more realistic to me.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 2, 2009 10:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

which would still be really high

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

But would represent a slight regression

from last year’s .371.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 2, 2009 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

It weirds me out that James's projections seem so positive on every player.

It’s just based on anecdotal glances at a few players, but for someone to excell someone else has to struggle. It really doesn’t seem like his projections are possible.

by philkid3 on Apr 3, 2009 2:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

They do seem

universally high. I have yet to look at a single James projection and think it was too low.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 3, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

AVG, BABIP

What does it say if a player’s BABIP goes down and AVG goes up?

"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks

by hightowersmith on Apr 2, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's just spraying the ball more effectively?

"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks

by hightowersmith on Apr 2, 2009 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Of the projections systems...

…I’d say CHONE, ZiPS and PECOTA are the best.

CHONE and ZiPS both have him in the 810-820 OPS range.

PECOTA has 802.

I think thus are not unrealistic, although I’d probably be a little more bullish on him than that because, like z, I think he’s a solid bet to adjust well.

However, if he has an 850 OPS this season — and that seems reasonable — he’s not going to be one of the best 5 offensive players in the A.L. West.

Expecting him to be that good, that fast — even in the A.L. West — seems overly optimistic.

by Adam J. Morris on Apr 2, 2009 7:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

without looking

Where would you guess 850 would have ranked him among regulars?

Given that, it’s strange to react to Davis in the top 5 the way Law did.

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

An 850 OPS?

Given that it is in TBIA, with it being SLG heavy and with no steals, he’d probably be around #10 overall in 2008 in the A.L. West.

by Adam J. Morris on Apr 2, 2009 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

hmm

I would have given you an objective answer but I didn’t realize I had to convert 850 OPS + no steals + low OBP into an offensive metric.

But looking at wOBA’s, I have him at 8. the guys ahead of him:

(No Order)
Ibanez
Guerrero
Hunter
Cust
Bradley
Kinsler
Hamilton

Of those, Bradley and Ibanez are gone and Guerrero is done, but Holliday will probably be ahead of him. So he’s at what – 7th? Yeah, top 5 is such a stretch.

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

I just forgot about them

so he’s back down to 8 (my very simple math was wrong in the previous post).

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Abreu definitely

I think it is more likely Vlad puts up better numbers than Giambi (in Oakland) this year

by JBImaknee on Apr 3, 2009 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

In questions like this, it's not about proximity

The question is about the top 5, so let’s say the first 4 are (no particular order)

Kinsler, Hamilton, Holliday, Guerrero

Now you have a bunch of guys that might be #5: Giambi, Abreu, Cust. I think the better question is, can one expect Chris Davis to be better than all of those 3 guys. If the answer is yes, then top 5 is not a stretch. If not, then it is definitely a stretch, because there could be quite a difference between 5 and 8. Using a loose example, I can claim that Prince Fielder is the 3rd best offensive 1B in the NL central, and that’s a reasonable stance. However, if I say – oh, because he is 3rd, it’s not a stretch to say that he is the best, Albert Pujols will blast me into the ionosphere from the air pressure generated by his bat.

by Telegraph on Apr 2, 2009 8:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Question

How many 23 year olds do you think have posted an OPS of 850 or better, with at least 500 PAs, from 1990-2007?

by Adam J. Morris on Apr 2, 2009 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

this sounds a lot like

how many 22 year olds are in the majors after only completing one year of pro ball the year before.

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

There are 22 of them

It simply doesn’t happen that often.

If Davis has an 850 OPS this season, it will be a successful and impressive year for him, but I think a lot of fans will be disappointed.

by Adam J. Morris on Apr 2, 2009 7:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

are you sure?

I did the search with 1990-2008 and got 38. and 1997-2008 and got 31.

It’s not like a whole order greater or anything but at least it’s within the realm of possibility for a good player. And before you point it out, I also get that the people who have done it have been uber prospects with high OBP’s but still

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Here's the list

It is from Sinans’ Baseball Encyclopedia.

1 Albert Pujols 1.106
2 Ken Griffey Jr. 1.025
3 Troy Glaus 1.008
4 Frank Thomas 1.006
5 Juan Gonzalez 1.000
6 Miguel Cabrera .998
7 Vladimir Guerrero .978
8 Gary Sheffield .965
9 Manny Ramirez .960
10 Alex Rodriguez .943
11 Joe Mauer .936
12 Scott Rolen .923
13 David Wright .912
14 Grady Sizemore .907
15 Andruw Jones .907
16 Robinson Cano .890
17 Jhonny Peralta .885
18 Aramis Ramirez .885
19 Eric Chavez .878
20 Nomar Garciaparra .875
21 Paul Konerko .862
22 Hank Blalock .855

by Adam J. Morris on Apr 2, 2009 8:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

I was using BRPI

http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/bsl_finder.cgi#form:11

I can’t see results but it shows the number of entries

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

You might have seen it, but

There was a free program linked in a fanpost a while ago called the national pasttime almanac that does all this really well, check it out if you didnt see it the first time.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

i got 33 times it has happened since 1990 with players

16-23…

With a few guys doing it multiple times

out of 132 total possible seasons of guys that young in that time frame

by laxtonto on Apr 2, 2009 8:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's one sexy list.

I hope Crush makes it.

Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador

by Parman on Apr 2, 2009 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

97

Now that thats out of the way…

How many 21-22 year olds do you think have hit .315 with 76 homeruns and 246 rbi in 2 seasons at any level from 1990 to 2007?

Snide remarks aside thats a question I’m actually very very interested to know the answer too.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

woops

Forgot to put in the 500 PAs. Foiled.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Heres one

22 year olds or younger to hit 16 or more homeruns in 420 or fewer at bats with an ops of .850 or above.

Chris Davis
Manny Ramirez
Adam Dunn

Davis’s exact totals were 17/295/.880 so i did give some leeway.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

why isn't longoria on there?

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

never mind

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

420 or fewer at bats

Although even if you expand it to 800 at bats to include everyone its still only 15 guys including mostly active all stars and hall of famers.

and hank blalock =p

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 8:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

ignore me

but this is kind of fun to mess with

If you be manipulative and make it people to hit 17 or more homeruns with a .880 or higher ops at age 22 or younger in 295 at bats or less with a .286 or higher average…

From 1900 till now, literally the entire history of modern baseballl, the list is…

Chris Davis.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Padding the numbers.

Or selection bias, either/or. However, it is a neat factoid.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Apr 2, 2009 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

wow you must be bored

"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg

by rentz on Apr 2, 2009 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Fellow 10k post members shouldn't throw stones!

But really, that took an additional 30 seconds =p

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 8:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Oh my, I will exit this thread now then.

And hang my head in shame, as I proferre me soul to the gallows.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Apr 2, 2009 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah,

i think “it was fun while it lasted” was the bigger whiff. i guess we’ll see.

by SteveP on Apr 2, 2009 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I take "massively unsustainable" to mean

that his BABIP is too high to sustain, right?

maybe I’m a novice to translating BABIP from the minors to the majors, but I don’t know what kind of BABIP to predict for him except pretty high.

What do you have him at?

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 7:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

If park factors are going to help Davis so much

won’t they also hurt Holliday….he’s moved from Coors Field, a pretty “hitter friendly” park, to Oakland. Last couple of years there is pretty big split in park factors.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/parkfactor?season=2008

If you want some slack, bring your own rope.

by rangerfaninva on Apr 2, 2009 7:20 PM CDT reply actions  

KLaw's basic problem

with CD is his contact rate. No ballpark will help fix that.

"And the fact that he's in that ballpark doesn't make him a better player - it might make him a better fantasy pickup, but it doesn't affect his core skill set." - Keith Law discussing Chris Davis

by RangerMad on Apr 2, 2009 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Not really

You are talking about players in a context-neutral setting. Holliday’s raw numbers should go down in Oakland, but any evaluation of him that takes his home park into account should remain steady.

by Adam J. Morris on Apr 2, 2009 7:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Geez

You guys are acting like he said David Murphy is a 4th outfielder or something.

by Adam J. Morris on Apr 2, 2009 7:34 PM CDT reply actions  

More like the time he said Padilla killed somebody in Nicaragua

like it was fact

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

yeah, i saw it

and i responded to it last time. why do you believe that guy instead of padilla?

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 7:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

If it's not true...

…it’s libel, and we would have seen a lawsuit.

by Keith Law on Apr 2, 2009 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

because the nicaraguan tort system is so good?

And, maybe my spanish needs some work, but did the guy actually say that Padilla killed someone or just that he had sources that said Padilla killed someone?

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

That seems like a pretty lazy deduction to me.

So if he doesn’t sue, it’s obviously the truth?

That seems wrong to me.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I love you, Marcus Lemon.

"I don’t have any respect for anybody on here. Everyone on here is a fucking asshole who thinks they’re god compared to everyone else." -iorange555.

by thedirkatron on Apr 3, 2009 1:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

can somebody who knows spanish translate this?

I don’t think its nearly so strong an assertion that KLaw can just assume as fact that Padilla killed somebody.

and I’d accept Keith’s translation as well.

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 8:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I translated the entire piece,

if you want it e-mailed. I’m reading it right now out of curiosity.

"I saw your act, just didn't make it for me. Just a lot of fluff."

by scoop16 on Apr 2, 2009 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

Definitely interested in a better translation

But from what google spits out it doesn’t appear to have many details or facts, just says a friend died in an accident in which padilla was supposedly driving 150 km/h. The writer has not seen the police report.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yo DShep

Check your Gmail dude.

She was a grand old lady...

by LSJ on Apr 2, 2009 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

That’s what I got out of my translation, also. Not much.

"I saw your act, just didn't make it for me. Just a lot of fluff."

by scoop16 on Apr 2, 2009 9:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

and if that is the case

then it isn’t libelous and that is clearly not enough to keep saying that Padilla killed somebody

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Padilla was driving 150 kph ...

… and lived because he was wearing a seat belt while his passenger wasn’t and died. No big deal, I guess.

Between the accident and the persistent rumor within baseball circles that he has had a serious drinking problem for ages, I see him as a pretty bad makeup guy. But driving drunk has never been taken seriously in baseball, and the willingness here of Rangers to believe that Padilla wasn’t responsible for his passenger’s death just follows the pattern.

by Keith Law on Apr 2, 2009 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

There are, however,

also numerous stories of his generous giving in his home country, and his tremendous work ethic. I think that accident story and any drinking he’s done raise questions that he has not quelled by his reticence and lack of good English communication. A reserved guy with low quality English skills is not going to be able to keep up with the press on stuff like that.

I agree,though, that MLB in general would much rather this sort of thing just quietly go away. Wife beating isn’t taken all that seriously in baseball, either. It took far too long for steroids to be taken with even a pretense of seriousness.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 3, 2009 12:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

what are you talking about?

“the willingness here of Rangers to believe…”

Are you talking about us? The Rangers organization? Rangers players? I mean, you are the only person that I know of that has ever said he was drunk driving. I don’t know who exactly you want to respond to that. If you are so hell bent on exposing him, why don’t you use a larger forum to call him out on it and see what kind of formal response you get?

Driving 95mph is one thing. To suggest that he was drunk driving is something else. For you to draw the lines from “he has a drinking problem” to “he’s guilty of vehicular manslaughter” by drunk driving is quite another.

I can’t fathom that you actually want to stand by this story. You’re not just some punk on a blog. You present yourself as a journalist. Or do you not care about how seriously people take you?

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 3, 2009 12:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

Or that Luis Mendoza doesn't suck.

Honest answer AJM: Do you find the replies in this thread before KLaw posted “appalling” and “absurd”?

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Do you think KLaw overreacted a bit?

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

How inoffensive.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

are we only allowed

to overreact to tom hicks quotes?

by SteveP on Apr 2, 2009 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

no, we are allowed to overreact to whatever we want

and other folks are equally allowed to say that we overreacted.

Unless of course, AJM decides to use his “powers”.

by Telegraph on Apr 2, 2009 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

Despite what the commenters at the DMN blog say...

…I use my “powers” exceedingly rarely.

I suspect the corporate overlords at SBN would prefer I use them more aggressively.

by Adam J. Morris on Apr 2, 2009 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

I concur with this.

I think you are exceedingly liberal in your ban policies. No offense/finger pointing to anyone, of course.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Apr 2, 2009 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

I would agree

but I could easily be pretty high up on the ban list

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

Eh, prolly me too sometimes.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Apr 2, 2009 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nah

You’re cool.

Josey and Steal Home however, are not.

She was a grand old lady...

by LSJ on Apr 2, 2009 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

i appreciate that

but no offense, you aren’t the one making the call.

at the very least, my potty mouth is a pretty objectively good reason to give me a warning.

Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder

by ab03 on Apr 2, 2009 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, same could be said about me, especially in the past

Adam could’ve banned me multiple times last year when we got into it over Salty vs. Laird.

She was a grand old lady...

by LSJ on Apr 2, 2009 8:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I had one deleted indirectly. i win.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Funnah!

/Bradshaw

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Apr 2, 2009 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

If Ben were a smurf

he’d be Grouchy Smurf.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 2, 2009 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

steveoo

is Gargamel.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 2, 2009 11:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

He'd be Remorseful Smurf.

Because of all the hookers he’s killed, you see.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I love you, Marcus Lemon.

"I don’t have any respect for anybody on here. Everyone on here is a fucking asshole who thinks they’re god compared to everyone else." -iorange555.

by thedirkatron on Apr 3, 2009 1:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

And you'd be

Baby punting Smurf. One question I always had, There’s like 100 Smurfs, but only 1 Smurfette? Holy gang Smurf.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 3, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Not all the Smurfs smurf for the same team

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Apr 3, 2009 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Vanity Smurf,

we’re looking in your direction, here. And just where did the nickname “Papa” come from?

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 3, 2009 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Brainy Smurf gave it to him

After a magical night

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Apr 3, 2009 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Folks here overreacting?

I’m shocked.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 2, 2009 10:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Its a good thing we've got ESPN personalities to keep us anchored.

Not to mention the rest of the internet.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

I always get a chuckle

out of internet people being surprised that other internet people are reacting with strong wording on a blog. That’s what we do, it’s why we’re here. We’re not here to calmly post “I’d like to respectively disagree — in the slightest way, and only in degree, not in substance — with my distinguished friend from ESPN.” And then he’d reply, “In response to a well reasoned missive from my good friendly blogging colleague, I’d like to say that I hold Davis in the highest esteem and consider him both a gentleman and a scholar.”

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 2, 2009 11:18 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Fuck off

I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.

"I'm as passionate and knowlegeable as any fan out there." Josey Wales

by Brian Thomas on Apr 3, 2009 5:55 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

See that there?

I was withholding that exact comment when I flew by earlier…I guess I am too polite this early in the morn.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Apr 3, 2009 6:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

That made me laugh

really hard, my esteemed fellow rat bastard.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 3, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

You got your argument at the jerk store, jerk!

I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.

"I'm as passionate and knowlegeable as any fan out there." Josey Wales

by Brian Thomas on Apr 3, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

I try, I really do.

"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008

by Rodney on Apr 2, 2009 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

i agree..

…davis contact rate should give reasonable cause for concern about maintaining last years production, i don’t get the “it was fun while it lasted” bit…

i’m all for mockery, but we’re rangers fans, don’t make fun of our hope. its all we have. well that and a really good farm system. which some would argue just sustains our hope. hmm. redundant.

"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...

by ivysafety39 on Apr 2, 2009 8:26 PM CDT reply actions  

There

You heard the Klaw, JD. Trade Davis for Nate Robertson right this instant!

"Yeah, like I had a chance there" - Lancaster batter, after striking out against Derek Holland

by chrisR on Apr 2, 2009 10:06 PM CDT reply actions  

Appalling.

the preceding post was a great success.

by DShep on Apr 2, 2009 10:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

+1

She was a grand old lady...

by LSJ on Apr 2, 2009 10:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

I told you fuckers to trade Davis for Greinke when you had the chance.

In the next four years, Greinke is likely to be the bigger contributor.

That’s assuming of course the Rangers would have extended him. But if the Royals could get it done, I’m sure the Rangers post-trade would have worked something out.

DFW is somewhat like KC… it’s big enough to do stuff, but it’s not New York. Zack would have loved it here. >:(

by oc on Apr 3, 2009 4:27 AM CDT reply actions  

We never had that chance.

The 40 Trumps All!!!

I love you, Marcus Lemon.

"I don’t have any respect for anybody on here. Everyone on here is a fucking asshole who thinks they’re god compared to everyone else." -iorange555.

by thedirkatron on Apr 3, 2009 7:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

And it isn't exactly our call

to pull the trigger on a trade.

G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....

by t ball on Apr 3, 2009 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

Davis has always been overrated around here

but whatever, he posted great numbers last year and good for him and good for us. I agree with KLaw that he’ll regress a bit. I don’t think he’s doomed for irrelevancy, but assuming he’ll be among the top hitters in the West is a stretch (though its still a possibility).

I find it amusing that Chris Davis, Justin Smoak, and apparently Scott Feldman are the three guys you can’t say anything negative about on LSB without being lambasted

by JBImaknee on Apr 3, 2009 10:00 AM CDT reply actions  

Ah yes...

I love LSB.

POW!! ..........................POW!! POW!!

by b.pate on Apr 3, 2009 10:59 AM CDT reply actions  

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