On Trey Hillman
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 20, 2009 10:00 AM CDT
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PrintSo, yeah, Ron Washington's ongoing tenuous job security continues to be a hot topic.
And with the Royals in town, we've had the inevitable "why couldn't we have hired Trey Hillman instead?" posts (which, for that matter, we've had for 2+ years here now).
I've talked before about the criticism Hillman has received from numerous folks for his questionable in-game decisions since he took over in Kansas City...but with yesterday's game fresh in our minds, I thought it was also worth pointing out this analysis of Hillman's moves on Sunday which, the Royals Review writer appears to believe, cost Kansas City the game.
Ah, the irony, if Trey Hillman's incompetence ends up saving Ron Washington's job.
And as a point of clarification, this isn't a defense of Washington, and as I've said before, the fact that Jon Daniels put together a lousy collection of managerial candidates to interview is really more troubling to me than hiring the wrong guy.
It is to point out that Hillman ain't the answer.
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Yeah, there's that.
And the near full-scale mutiny he inspired last season…
The players here seem to love Wash, which can’t hurt anything.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
I did feel like
the way he used his pen gave us a chance to win. Why use Cruz, who we couldn’t touch, for two batters in the seventh? If he’d have used, say, Wright in that role, then let Cruz pitch the eighth, they most likely win.
by Brett Perryman on Apr 20, 2009 10:06 AM CDT reply actions
or if he doesn't throw Farnsworth
I don’t know why you would throw him that late in the game with the way he has struggled this year
The "Fire Wash Watch" is on. I say he's gone by April 26th.
or just leave Cruz in for 7th & 8th
he was rested and they have day off today
Right
I’m giving him the benefit of the doubt on overusing him. However you slice it, better use of the pen probably wins him that game.
by Brett Perryman on Apr 20, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
lefties
The way our lineup was coming up I imagine Hillman wanted Cruz to face 9,1,2 in the 7th leaving Hamilton, Jones and Blalock for Mahay in the 8th
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
He played himself into a corner
with that thinking.
by Brett Perryman on Apr 20, 2009 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
But was it wrong?
Mahay has been great against lefties and facing a teams 3 and 5 hitters in a 2 run game is almost an ideal scenario for a LOOGY. And with Kinsler being as hot as he has been I would want my best bullpen arm against him which Cruz is. The Cruz and Mahay decisions weren’t his bad ones. The Wright and Farnsworth ones were theres no question about it.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
Wakamatsu may have been the right guy
But no one could get past his relationship with Showalter to consider it back then.
Hillman is not a good manager.
"why couldn't we have hired Trey Hillman instead?" posts
I haven’t really read any of those.
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
by hightowersmith on Apr 20, 2009 10:21 AM CDT reply actions
I've seen a couple
that said that. I think Josey was pushing that.
"The idea that the Rangers are going to be a solid contender for a number of years is a fantasy." - Adam J. Morris
there are plenty
pretty sure jackass said it a lot
and I think there were more than a few throughout the weekend’s GDT’s. And, obviously, the idea is prevalent enough in the local media that LeBreton referenced it.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
yeah, agree
Meno seems to be tilting at windmills. He’s claiming a vibe I never sensed more than what would be expected.
I have.
In the few months surrounding Wash’s hire. Not so much thereafter.
by brettgardner on Apr 20, 2009 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions
the candidates
hillman, acta, washington, wak?, and someone else?
Any real issues with Acta (other than his record with Washington)? He seems to be more SABR friendly.
The only other complaint I have about your complaint is that that list was pretty much the cream of the crop (at least from what I remember of potential candidates at the time), evidenced by the fact that the other people ended up getting jobs. Who else was out there?
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
John Russell the Pirates manager.
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
by Kinslerhomer on Apr 20, 2009 10:25 AM CDT up reply actions
I meant
is Russell someone the Rangers interviewed or someone they should have interviewed?
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
Interesting
there really doesn’t seem to be anything wrong with the list.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
but.... but...
Didn’t Memphis give Phil their roster anyway?? or at least the only good parts??
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
Meh
Not sure I buy that.
Look at Larry Brown—he’s got a bunch of roster junk and he’s made them play hard and they somehow came close to making the playoffs.
Conversely, Del Negro’s team made the playoffs and, their recent victory aside, they generally play sloppy shit ball.
The genius part really shouldn’t be determined strictly from W-L or titles.
by brettgardner on Apr 20, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions
In the East ...
Making the 8th seed in the East isn’t much to brag about. Chicago and Charlotte both improved their roster nicely with in season trade. If Charlotte started the season with the roster they have now, they’d be in the playoffs.. they will be next year.
Maybe the Bulls play sloppy but they play hard, and Del Negro has gotten something out of Noah and Thomas, that’s more than Skiles can say.
Yeah
I was reaching—I actually like Del Negro and the Bulls.
Thomas, Noah, and Salmons have exceeded my expectations. Still think they need a legit big, though. Thomas may be able to hide at 4 because he’s so long and can make nasty blocks, but I don’t think you’re going to win with Noah as your starting C. Also, a real 2 would be nice—I would think they could use Gordon (S&T), Hinrich, and Deng (maybe—huge $$) to acquire the necessary pieces. And Miller’s expiring K as well.
by brettgardner on Apr 20, 2009 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions
And I don't disagree with your last statement
But I do think there is a good chance Charlotte will finish with a better record than the Bulls next year solely based on the rosters they finished this year with.
There were plenty that wanted
Hillman or Acta. There were a lot of baseball people if I remember correct that said Acta was a bright young upcomer.
Keith Law on Greg Golson, "He's similiar to Cameron and Hunter in that all three are black."
http://tinyurl.com/ranger-rage
I wanted Acta at the time (and still do)
although, that was more because I thought a spanish speaking manager would jive well with our strong LA program. That is not nearly as important as his open mindedness.
However, if you can’t manage people, you’re not going to get far with that stuff and I’m not sure he has proved that he can manage people.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
Yeah, his handling of the Elijah Dukes thing seems heavy-handed at best...
and he sure doesn’t have that team playing very inspired ball.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
demoting your bullpen en masse
to call up players that aren’t much better doesn’t seem like the greatest move either.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
How'd you like
his handling of the bullpen :)
"The idea that the Rangers are going to be a solid contender for a number of years is a fantasy." - Adam J. Morris
That stems a lot from the fact that Millidge is Acta boy...
and took it out on Dukes for management sending him down. What was odd was it was Millidge who initially started all of the loafing and unprofessional behavior that led to the managements directive to crack down.
I would probably still take Wash over Acta and Hilman…
I miss Wak though
Hillman
just took 2 out of 3 in our yard and this is what you come up with?
Yours are the ramblings of an insecure lover…
By the way, there is nothing wrong with JD’s list. The only problem is that he hired the worst of the group. He hired the only one who wouldn’t have managed to land a managers job elsewhere.
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 10:25 AM CDT reply actions
How is Acta doing?
Keith Law on Greg Golson, "He's similiar to Cameron and Hunter in that all three are black."
http://tinyurl.com/ranger-rage
worst
roster in MLB. He will get other gigs. Wash is a one and done, and if it weren’t for JD there never would have been a one.
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions
are you seriously going to defend Hillman
venture a guess, how many lineups did Hillman have last year? (I’ll give it away a bit) How many lineups did Hillman average per week last year?
He was by all accounts the worst manager of the league last year. Like total consensus on that point. Anybody who defends him even a little has their head up their ass.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
This.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
That.
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions
The other??
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
Consensus
that must be news to KC who kept him employed and are enjoying a good start to their season while running out a fairly inept offense.
and their trotting Meche out their every 5 days no less, a guy I was assured by LSB couldn’t help the Rangers.
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
they have great pitching
did hillman have any hand in that?
and you are just being ignorant if you don’t think he was the worst manager in the league. as simple as that. an effing train wreck.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
Great pitching
JD and Wash could have had Meche and Cruz. and Tejeda.
so you are bow touting the vaunted KC staff….ok.
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah, I am bow touting the staff
those are separate points but fine – we could have had meche. (Nice of you to insert cruz and tejeda in there – who did absolutely nothing in the KC wins. And they can have tejeda). JD (along with the rest of the league) messed up by not hiring meche or cruz.
don’t know what that has to do with hillman being a good manager
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
All three of Acta, Washington and Hillman
took over tough situations that were not bound to improve over night. But they have all also had growing pains. They have completely different personalities, but I think that they all appear to have struggled with the same sorts of things, not optimizing their limited resources because of curious in-game calls. I honestly don’t know which I’d choose now if given a choice. Hillman had a bit of a mutiny, it sounds like, but a strong GM also seems to have taken care of that.
by Brett Perryman on Apr 20, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
x
Yours are the ramblings of an insecure lover…
And yours are the ramblings of a braying donkey.
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 20, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
who exactly are you in love with?
washington – the guy you want fired
or JD – the guy you think messed up?
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
The Rangers
its ok to say that The Rangers failed in their hiring of a mgr. No need to point out the failings of another mgr. It does nothing to justify the hiring of Wash.
As Ive stated before its ok for AJM to bag on the Rangers but the minute someone else does he feels compelled to come to their defense. Much like one does with their own family members.
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
what don't you get about
It is to point out that Hillman ain’t the answer.
Or, do you not understand that we’ve averaged at least 2-3 comments per month the last 2+ years saying we should have hired Hillman?
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
I get it.
jilted lovers like to point out the flaws of the one that got away.
What don’t you get about that?
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
your metaphor doesn't even make sense
if adam is a jilted lover then that means he loved Hillman, not the rangers.
if you are in love with your girlfriend, you don’t go out of your way to point out flaws about your girlfriend’s potential boyfriend (at least nobody I know does that). And even then, adam is the manager. this metaphor totally shits the bed. Given that adam has said the manager choice was wrong AND the managing list was wrong, I don’t see how any sort of homerism plays into this.
and how ironic of you not to realize that the reason he has to make these posts is for people like you – who still think that hillman would have been a better choice. Perhaps adam’s stupidity stems from the fact that he made a post about such an obvious point in the first place.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
you must
think the KC GM is the worst in the game.
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
he's all over the place
he’s makes great decisions and terrible decisions every year (cruz/farnsworth).
I’m sorry, is all of this logic just too much for you to handle?
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
but he
is unaware that he employs the worst mgr in baseball?
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
i dunno?
are we unaware that washington isn’t great? the guy almost had an effing mutiny. Historically and universally, there’s no more obvious sign of bad management than a mutiny. That is the logical conclusion of all bad management.
there are obviously other factors that weigh into it but if hillman got fired, i guarantee you not many people are asking why.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
*the guy = hillman
washington (as far as I know) did not have a mutiny
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
Oh fuck.
Are you Wails illegitimate progeny or something? All the same talking points, less abrasive asshole.
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Just because the Royals won 2 out of 3........
…….that doesn’t mean that Hillman made good decisions this weekend.
Sometimes teams win in spite of their manager, not because of him (see: Brenly, Bob and Guillen, Ozzie).
Hillman took 2 out of 3 because his team got to bat against Matt Harrison and Josh Rupe friday, and because it was Greinke’s turn to pitch saturday.
well that
is pretty damning of JD isn’t it. Poor Wash needs a better roster you say, a point I actually concur with.
Generally when you win despite the mgr it is because you’ve got superior talent and I dont think that is the case in KC
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
Exactly...........
Gil Meche was matched up against the Rangers’ 5th starter. That’s not the fault of JD. There’s not a team in baseball with a 5-deep rotation. Sometimes your worst guy is matched up against one of their best. Would it have been nice for Harrison to pitch better? Obviously. But that’s what you get when you throw inexperienced guys out there. It’s called a learning curve.
and grienke (the way he is pitching now) is better than millwood
and davies (the way he is pitching to start the season) is way better than padilla. they should have swept.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
Meche
all of a sudden he is Cy Young eh? LSB sure didn’t want him when the opportunity was there.
The fact that a AA pitcher(Harrison) is pitching in the bigs is ridiculous for sure.
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
No question
I wasn’t interested in him, given how much he wanted (and ended up getting) and what his track record has been.
He’s exceeded expectations.
You can pretend, if it makes you sleep better at night, that this is just LSB foolishness, and the rest of baseball was praising Dayton Moore’s sagacity at the time while lampooning the foolishness of the Rangers for not matching that deal.
But that doesn’t make it reality.
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 20, 2009 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions
yeah
there were plenty of “What is Kansas City doing?” article when that meche signing went down.
but that is completely irrelevant to the topic. Meche is pitching out of his mind this month. On paper, we should have lost.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
and you can cosole yourself ny pretending that the Rangers
will contend in 2010 with not one starting pitcher locked into a roll for next season. There is no way the Rangers have a competent staff next year. Counting on two babies(Feliz and Holland) to anchor a staff is folly and even if they outperform what could be reasonably expected out of rookies(Holland wont actually be a rookie by then I guess) it still takes 5, or 7 starters counting injuries.
Your tired of Hillman talk, I’m tired of delusional Ranger apologists. This team is a LONG way off.
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
i like how you can't follow any argument to its conclusion
now i can ignore you without feeling like I’m losing something
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
fair enough.
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes, because
we know that the team couldn’t possibly add a pitcher between now and next opening day, so obviously they’re counting on the babies to lead. Saying that Hillman sucks at least as bad as Washington hardly qualifies as being a Rangers apologist.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
A pitcher?
of 5?
Newberg pointed out the rise of Greike and the patience that may be necessary to reap the benefits of Holland and Feliz, There is a reasonable chance one, or both of them could be horrible next year.
I just don’t see where all the optimism comes from for next year? We don’t even have the makings of a starting rotation on hand.
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions
ok
but do you not realize how that has absolutely nothing to do with hillman being the worst manager in baseball? at least acknowledge that and salvage some credibility
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
i agree
and that is why I posted fair enough to your ender above.
I had a secret meeting in the basement of my brain.
by red shoe ranger on Apr 20, 2009 11:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Did I predict 100 wins
anywhere in my post? I expect the 2010 Rangers to be better than the 2009 Rangers. Why is that unrealistic?
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
This
I could have won 2 out of 3 with Meche and Greinke pitching like that. If Meche and Greinke pitch like that all year it will be a serious indictment of Hillman if that team isn’t over .500.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
davies no slouch
at least to start. most people should could have gotten three wins.
but that’s only one series. Hillman’s suckitude goes back to last year
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
All 5 they interviewed are now ML managers
That’s got to be positive commentary on the list – other front offices considered them strong candidates as well.
Or that the criteria
for hiring managers is pretty flawed. A little of both, I think. But, really, unless a guy is already a proven commodity you don’t know what you’re getting until he’s on the job.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
OT - What's
Frankie Franciscos into music for when he comes into the game?
by icouldusesomebaseball on Apr 20, 2009 10:39 AM CDT reply actions
I don't know
I emailed Chuck last year about it and he doesn’t know either – says it appeared on a blank CD with “Frankie” written on it. I’ve tried using Shazam on my phone to tag it when he comes into the game but it doesn’t recognize it in five attempts so far.
Initially I wanted to find it because it drives my husband insane; now it’s kind of growing on me.
"You got a guy coming up there who can’t hit water if he fell out of a boat." - Tom Grieve on Richie Sexson, 5.8.2008
"I’ve been a Rangers fan all my life and I can tell you there’s been plenty of fucking crying in baseball…" - WhipSmart, 6.3.08
"When it comes to Jeff Mathis, the story ends with us putting one in his earhole." - AJM, 7.7.08
I do too.
"You got a guy coming up there who can’t hit water if he fell out of a boat." - Tom Grieve on Richie Sexson, 5.8.2008
"I’ve been a Rangers fan all my life and I can tell you there’s been plenty of fucking crying in baseball…" - WhipSmart, 6.3.08
"When it comes to Jeff Mathis, the story ends with us putting one in his earhole." - AJM, 7.7.08
Don't forget it's Patriots Day
If anyone is wanting to watch or listen to baseball this morning.
Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
Good point.
Here: tvants://list.tvants.com/tvants/?k=af0594b24647e3f66ff0660a182f3c10
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Joe Posnanski on last night's game
He’s underwhelmed by Hillman’s bullpen management.
But I’m sure he’s just a Ranger apologist.
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 20, 2009 11:10 AM CDT reply actions
He was also the one who ripped Hillman
for his mismanagement of the bullpen, in particularly Gobble, last year.
Wash isn’t my favorite manager, and I know you could find better, but Hillman is not it.
he could very well be the only one that is not it
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
My apologies if this was mentioned elsewhere....
but I saw something in yesterday’s game I did not understand and have not seen mentioned anywhere else.
In the 8th inning rally, after Blalock scored, Elvis came up and singled. Upon singling, Davis was held at 2nd base. My question is, why was Davis still at first? Why didn’t he go to 2nd during the Blalock play at the plate? Elvis’ single may not have scored Davis from 2nd, but we’ll never know because he was still at 1st.
Is this a valid observation, or am I missing something?
Davis
He didn’t round 1st on his hit that got knocked down by the 2nd baseman. He ran through the bag. On the replay he was running hard and ran through the bag and once the 2nd baseman threw home he went back to the bag and watched to see if the ball got away.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
so who else should have been included
in JD’s search that wasn’t?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 20, 2009 11:38 AM CDT reply actions
If Hillman is the answer,
I don’t even want to know what the answer is. That was worse than any of Wash’s “gut instincts” moves.
Definiton of insanity-doing the same thing and expecting different results
"Introducing your 2009 Texas Rangers-Built for Insanity!"
*question*
me=dumbass
Definiton of insanity-doing the same thing and expecting different results
"Introducing your 2009 Texas Rangers-Built for Insanity!"
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