Goldstein on Lemon
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 20, 2009 10:50 AM CDT
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PrintGood news for the Lemonheads...Kevin Goldstein has included Marcus Lemon in his Monday Morning Ten Pack:
Despite signing for $1 million out of the 2006 draft, Lemon has ended up buried in a loaded Rangers system. He's not especially toolsy, but Chet's kid is solid across the board and knows how to play fundamentally sound baseball, consistently reaching base at a healthy clip, and entering the year with career averages of .281/.367/.399. On Sunday, Frisco DH'd him just to keep his hot bat in the lineup, and though a 1-for-5 showing snapped his multi-hit streak at four games, it extended his overall season-starting streak to nine contests, as he's 18-for-33 (.545) with four doubles and a triple. His range isn't spectacular, but he makes every play that he gets to, and while he's not a superstar in the making, I'd certainly take a shot at him in any trade talks with the Rangers.
I've been struggling to try to figure out a major league player who would be a good comp for Lemon's reasonable upside expectation. I've said David Eckstein before, but that doesn't feel quite right to me.
Any suggestions?
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i may be way off
but how far away is he from Howie Kendrick?
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
20 DL trips?
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
by Kinslerhomer on Apr 20, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Who knows?
Kendrick is an enigma all his own.
"Was this really necsarry?" - cowpoke/hurler hurley
kendrick:
career .360 BA in 1700 ABs
career .401 OBP
career .571 slg
career .972 ops
26 hr/120 2b
lemon:
career .281 BA in 1200 ABs
career .368 OBP
career .366 slg
career .767 ops
11 HR/60 2B
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 20, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Seems like Lemon
has a lot of Mark McLemore in him. McLemore was versatile (remember he played some OF) and solid.
McLemore
More athletic than Lemon, and with less pop, I think.
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 20, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Agreed
I just really think the best comp for Lemon is going to be someone who didnt just play one position. Lemon seems like he could end up being a super sub in the mold of Tony Phillips.
by Michael Cave on Apr 20, 2009 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
does he talk to himself?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 20, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Ryan Freel was really fast at one time.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"I guess it’s tough to look good when you play on the same team as Marcus Lemon." -Trip Somers.
"Congratulations, Mr. Somers. You just made THE LIST." -The Newberg, after reading the above comment.
by thedirkatron on Apr 20, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Willie Randolph, Steve Sax, Johnny Ray?
"I saw your act, just didn't make it for me. Just a lot of fluff."
Is Micheal Young too far off as a comp?
Not real toolsy but just a baseball player.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
i'd gladly accept
a Ray Durham career out of Marcus Lemon.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
does he have no speed?
or just doesn’t show it on the basepaths? wasn’t Chet pretty quick?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 20, 2009 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions
nice
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 20, 2009 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Best Case - Lou Whtitcker
But what about
Frenado Vina?
Or
Bill Doran
Or
Delino Desheilds
Or
Kazuo Matsui
An amalgam of Ty Cobb, Rogers Hornsby, and Honus Wagner...duh!
/dirkatron
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
An amalgam of Donnie Sadler, Benji Gil, and Manny Alexander ...duh!
/The Newberg
"The idea that the Rangers are going to be a solid contender for a number of years is a fantasy." - Adam J. Morris
Did you know Benji Gil had like the third best season ever by a Mets position player?
Neither did I. Weird, huh?
Then he got hit in the head by a flyball while he was distracted staring at a flying saucer and his career was never the same.
BP prospect smack down
both al west prospects actually profile similar lemon and cardenas bot mentioned in the Monday Morning Ten Pack:
who do you take?
pros/cons?
Cardenas
even if I believe he’s either a bad defensive 2B or an league average COF. Cardenas has shown some more home run pop in their careers.
Marcus Lemon is the Third Baseman/Leadoff Hitter of the future.
cardenas power was lousy last season
lemon 8hr
cardenas 5hr
both are gap hitters most likely
by Asfan4ever723 on Apr 20, 2009 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Cardenas
also managed to slg 441 in the FSL, which is much better when you put it into league context. I don’t know, I think at this pt, I’d take Cardenas because of his performance relative to league, though I do have questions about where he plays.
Marcus Lemon is the Third Baseman/Leadoff Hitter of the future.
Do people agree that
" he makes every play that he gets to"? I’d have to say that is a optimistic as long he remains at shortstop.
Yeah
especially considering his error numbers. I will say, he looks like he will make the plays he can get to, in the short time I’ve gotten to see him now. He has the look of a legit middle infielder in his actions; they’re just a bit slower than your premium Vizquel type.
by Brett Perryman on Apr 20, 2009 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions
scouts said the same thing about jed lowrie
he improved and changed their opinions.
by Asfan4ever723 on Apr 20, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
Chet Lemon’s minor league numbers- 293 .375 .459
"I saw your act, just didn't make it for me. Just a lot of fluff."
you mean the lemon - not the apple
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 20, 2009 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
long, hard day at work
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 20, 2009 5:36 PM CDT up reply actions
No excuse...
long, hard first day not at work. =P
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I actually kind of like
Asfanblabla’s comp of Lowrie. Lowrie has shown more statistical power, but he’s also been like three years older at each level. And it does remain to be seen whether Lemon can convince anyone that he’s a major league SS like Lowrie did.
by Brett Perryman on Apr 20, 2009 11:25 AM CDT reply actions
Eckstein
I didn’t know their plate discipline lined up that close (Eckstein walked more in the minors, and more than he struck out).
It’s a great comp except Eckstein was a college player.
Would you accept Eckstein’s career for Lemon, as a trade valuation even?
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
by hightowersmith on Apr 20, 2009 11:35 AM CDT reply actions
For fun... Joey Cora.
Also… it’s fun to have Lemon hitting in the same lineup at Manny Pina – whose last name translates to “Pineapple.”
Lemon comparables
With the exception of Cardenas, the players being used as comparables were 1-3 years older than Lemon when they were at similar levels in the minor leagues. That seems to be one of the issues with Lemon’s lack of recognition/appreciation – prospect gurus seem to be dismissing the fact that he is and has been very productive while being among the youngest players in each of the leagues in which he is and has been competing.
If you take ARL into account, here’s one of the better comps that I’ve seen:
Marcus Lemon
18 yo season – Rk – 310/420/405/825; 11 SB/2CS
18/19 yo season – A – 261/353/364/717; 300/390/410/800 after May; 12 SB/14 CS
19/20 yo season – A+ – 298/376/437/813; 12 SB/8 CS
20/21 yo season – AA -
Derek Jeter
18 yo season – Rk – 202/296/312/608; 2 SB/2 CS
19 yo season – A – 295/376/394/770; 18 SB/9 CS
20 yo season – A+ – 329/380/428/808
20 2nd half – AA/AAA – 365/443/505/948
21 yo season – AAA – 317/394/422/816
Except for Jeter’s torrid second half in 1994, Lemon has matched and even exceeded Jeter’s production through the age of 20. Assuming Lemon goes on to post an 800+ OPS this year in AA, one has to believe that barring injury, he is destined to be an above average major league player.
HOF candidate?
Maybe we can pick up Jeter as an NRI veteran when we bring Lemon up.
Teach Lemon the “jump-throw” and boom – we trade him to the Yanks as Jeter v2.0 for their top 3 pitching prospects.
I think part of that is...
…that because Lemon is viewed as less toolsy and more polished and refined, he has less room for improvement than for the usual 20/21 year old.
See also, Hank Blalock, the son of a coach who put up outrageous numbers at age 20 but didn’t show the same sort of growth later that one would expect. Or Sean Burroughs, for that matter.
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 20, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Blalock
has also changed his approach from when he put up those numbers. He used to be a guy who hit to all fields. Now he tries to snap hook yank everything into the Home Run Porch. HR numbers have gone up while average has gone down.
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Apr 20, 2009 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Or Griffey or Bonds or Roberto Alomar. If you grow up getting the best possible instruction, you're gonna plateau early, obviously. Every time. Write that down.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"I guess it’s tough to look good when you play on the same team as Marcus Lemon." -Trip Somers.
"Congratulations, Mr. Somers. You just made THE LIST." -The Newberg, after reading the above comment.
by thedirkatron on Apr 20, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I will
write that down
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Apr 20, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Now, see...
Now you are just being pissy.
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 20, 2009 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Me Or Dirkatron?
If me, I wasn’t being pissy, I was just taking instructions. He told me to write it down so I did.
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Apr 20, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions
No, I'm making fun of this theory people always toss out about coach's and player's sons and how they don't have the same room for improvement because they're already so polished coming out.
For every Ben Grieve, a Ken Griffey, Jr.
For every Sean Burroughs, a Roberto Alomar.
I don’t buy your theory and I’ll be deep in the cold, cold pits of robot hell before I buy into it.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"I guess it’s tough to look good when you play on the same team as Marcus Lemon." -Trip Somers.
"Congratulations, Mr. Somers. You just made THE LIST." -The Newberg, after reading the above comment.
by thedirkatron on Apr 20, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not speaking in absolutes
However, I’m just using it as an example of players who are more polished and are farther along developmentally.
Also, Sandy Alomar Jr. was about as good at age 23/24 as he’d ever be. I think you could say the same about Robbie. So I don’t know that the Alomars are a good example.
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 20, 2009 2:09 PM CDT up reply actions
Oh, so now 23/24 is the cutoff for when the sons of coaches/player plateau. Okay, good to know.
But, whatever.
I know you’re not speaking in absolutes, but their are so many variables in establishing how and why young players develop that this line of reasoning has always struck me as lazy and myopic.
If you really want to keep espousing it, though, go ahead.
Just don’t expect me to abstain from making fun of you when you do.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"I guess it’s tough to look good when you play on the same team as Marcus Lemon." -Trip Somers.
"Congratulations, Mr. Somers. You just made THE LIST." -The Newberg, after reading the above comment.
by thedirkatron on Apr 21, 2009 6:30 AM CDT up reply actions
I do stand by
my “If they have had all the coaching in the world, and they still blow”, they aren’t gonna be good players.
That was my theory on Mayberry, and I’m sticking by it.
"The idea that the Rangers are going to be a solid contender for a number of years is a fantasy." - Adam J. Morris
Indeed.
But that’s a whole ’nother issue.
Drafting a guy who’s had access to all the top quality coaching in the world and still has a horribly flawed swing and thinking you’re going to be able to fix him and make him good all of the sudden at 21 is rather Retardo McGee.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"I guess it’s tough to look good when you play on the same team as Marcus Lemon." -Trip Somers.
"Congratulations, Mr. Somers. You just made THE LIST." -The Newberg, after reading the above comment.
by thedirkatron on Apr 21, 2009 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions
Robot anything is better than regular anything
/dirkatron
"The idea that the Rangers are going to be a solid contender for a number of years is a fantasy." - Adam J. Morris
When we invent the Lemon Robot
The engineering profession will become obsolete
Seriously.
Those Japanese sex robots can’t get here soon enough.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"I guess it’s tough to look good when you play on the same team as Marcus Lemon." -Trip Somers.
"Congratulations, Mr. Somers. You just made THE LIST." -The Newberg, after reading the above comment.
by thedirkatron on Apr 20, 2009 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
robot devil?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 20, 2009 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Do you really think
The Newberg is going to allow Lemon to rise above his current level? One bullet in the Achilles ought to be enough to ensure he plateaus.
"The idea that the Rangers are going to be a solid contender for a number of years is a fantasy." - Adam J. Morris
The Newberg seems like the type to carry a derringer.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"I guess it’s tough to look good when you play on the same team as Marcus Lemon." -Trip Somers.
"Congratulations, Mr. Somers. You just made THE LIST." -The Newberg, after reading the above comment.
by thedirkatron on Apr 20, 2009 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Tools vs Skills
I’ve heard the “you can’t trust his numbers because he’s too polished” argument before and, for the life of me, I don’t get it. Lemon has been among the most productive MIFers in the minor leagues the past three seasons despite being one of the youngest players in each league in which he has played. He’s progressing by a level per year and his numbers are improving as he moves up. I fail to see why it matters if a scout sees a great athlete when they watch him play. The majors are littered with great baseball players who don’t “look” like great athletes.
SLG
Of his improving numbers, that’s the one I like the most.
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
by hightowersmith on Apr 20, 2009 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions
+Giambi
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
i see your giambi
and raise you jeremy brown
…oh wait
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 20, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Tools v. skills
I think you are comparing apples and lemons here. When you are talking about the “tools” guys, those are guys who you project as having a lot of growth potential and the ability to improve dramatically if the skills catch up. With a “skills” player, they are perceived as often doing well for their age/level because they are more refined, but they aren’t going to have that some sort of growth potential and ability to dramatically improve as they get older.
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 20, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Apples vs Lemons
I am not arguing that guys who are more physically gifted have higher ceilings than guys who are less physically gifted, though I am convinced that the most over-rated class of prospects are those with great tools and limited production.
What I am arguing is that physical attributes that allow a person to be a great baseball player are not always easy to see. In my opinion, eyesight and eye-to-hand coordination are far more important to a hitter than physical strength or coordination. In addition, intelligence and preparation can provide a hitter with an advantage that a scout cannot readily detect or measure. Lemon’s productivity at a young age suggests that he has some of these difficult to scout abilities that are allowing him to succeed. And I fail to see why he cannot continue to improve at a rate that is equal to or even greater than the players with apparently superior physical tools.
x
Lemon’s productivity at a young age suggests that he has some of these difficult to scout abilities that are allowing him to succeed.
I would agree with that.
And I fail to see why he cannot continue to improve at a rate that is equal to or even greater than the players with apparently superior physical tools.
I guess that the question is one of ceiling for the various tools he has — how close is he to his ceiling with those skills/tools, and how much better can he be expected to get?
I don’t have the answer to that.
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 20, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions
I vote
that bad Lemon puns should become a bannable offense
"Hustle doesn't cost a dime and it looks good." - Pete Rose as Channeled by Marcus Lemon
eww.
"Anyone that isn't pro-choice never met you" ~Brian Thomas on Seth...
by ivysafety39 on Apr 20, 2009 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions
leave me alone
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 21, 2009 2:04 AM CDT up reply actions
Is there any Ranger prospect
that you don’t have a projection for him becoming an All Star?
by JBImaknee on Apr 20, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
A few
Engel Beltre
Greg Golson
Guillermo Moscoso
Thomas Diamond
I know, I know
They have have a first and last name
by Telegraph on Apr 20, 2009 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Actually I couldn’t pick up any pattern…
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
by hightowersmith on Apr 21, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions
They hate each other but still hook up when desperate???
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
I thought I was the only one!
The thing you failed to point out in that thread is that Jeter’s second half in 1994 appeared to be a hot streak and that he returned to normal in 1995 with an 816 OPS in AAA. Assuming Lemon turns in an 800 or so OPS this year, it will be hard to deny the Jeter comp for Lemon.
LEMON INTERVIEW!
http://insidecorner.dmagazine.com/index.php/2009/04/20/viral-video-frisco-roughrider-marcus-lemon/
Marcus Lemon is the Third Baseman/Leadoff Hitter of the future.
OMG.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"I guess it’s tough to look good when you play on the same team as Marcus Lemon." -Trip Somers.
"Congratulations, Mr. Somers. You just made THE LIST." -The Newberg, after reading the above comment.
by thedirkatron on Apr 20, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
New sig quote
"Hustle doesn't cost a thing and it looks good." - Pete Rose as Channeled by Marcus Lemon
Not to pick nits, but it's dime, not thing.
But a Lemon quote is still a good thing, verbatim or no.
The 40 Trumps All!!!
"I guess it’s tough to look good when you play on the same team as Marcus Lemon." -Trip Somers.
"Congratulations, Mr. Somers. You just made THE LIST." -The Newberg, after reading the above comment.
by thedirkatron on Apr 20, 2009 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions
I can just picture
Michael Rosenbaum watching that interview longingly at his computer, hanging on Lemon’s every word, not letting a single phrasing go by unnoticed.
by Brett Perryman on Apr 20, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions
That would be okay, I guess...
Keith Law: (1:45 PM ET ) I think Michael Young should shut his mouth and move to third base.
Reply
Why? Hairston, Jr was decent last season, but he’s a lifetime .260/.330/.390 type of guy. Little power. Good speed. Decent defense. I don’t see anything in Hairston (or Lemon’s) game that make me want to forget someone like Kinsler. I like power hitters at 2nd Base.
Lemon may be a solid utility player someday.
Forget someone like Kinsler?
Okay, that would be way, way, way too optimistic. But if a guy who even his devout cult thinks is our 15th best prospect at best turns in to Jerry Hairston we should be fucking thrilled.
Also, at second base, I like productive players. I don’t care if it’s with power or not, I just care about the production.
More Hairston
Perhaps you’re kidding me.
But, am I suppose to be intrigued by some future journeyman type MLB player? Hairston was one of my least favorite Rangers in recent memory. We cut him in 2006, minor league contract in 2007, he signed with Cincy for about $2 million this year. That level of player is not so hard to find.
You might be letting his Rangers years cloud your opinion of the player.
He only played 133 games for us, and that small sample constitutes the only two seasons where he was below replacement. He’s been an average player three times with a 2.6 WAR last year. His average per 650 PA is a 1.6 WAR, again with a better recent season.
That’s not great, but he certainly has shown the capability to be an average Major League player. And average players are not a dime a dozen. They’re not impossible to find, but they’re useful. If players who aren’t even in the top 15 in our system are becoming average Major League Baseball players, that’s a good thing.
I do think you might be selling Lemon short, but just because Hairston wasn’t good in his small sample as a Ranger doesn’t mean it would be a bad thing if Lemon turned in to him.
All that said. . .
At 20 years old, Lemon put up a .295/.374/.434 line in High A. Hairston wasn’t in A+ until he was 22 and went .283/.366/.430. That’s a fairly significant difference.
Lemon (again, at 20) had MLEs of .244/.301/.338 last year (wow). That’s better than two of Hairston’s MLB seasons and pretty close to another in OBP. I’m going to need a little more reasoning to see the Hairston comp.
Mark Grudzielanik?
"Yeah, like I had a chance there" - Lancaster batter, after striking out against Derek Holland
Tim Teufel?
"A good start would be not giving up 900 runs again." -Jon Daniels
by Randy Richardson on Apr 20, 2009 10:38 PM CDT reply actions
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