Friday morning things
Spring training is over. The season starts on Monday. Yay!
Ron Washington is still deciding on what the rotation is going to be. Millwood, Padilla, and Harrison will be 1-2-5, but while Washington wants McCarthy in the #4 spot, so he'll match up against other team's #4 starters, the 4th start of this season will be the Tigers' home opener, and Washington apparently wants the more experienced Benson to pitch that game.
Personally, I think that after the first week or two, teams rotations end up switching around because of off-days and the like, so I don't know that the #3 starter is really going to face the other team's #3 starter any more than he'd face the other team's #4 starter, but nevertheless...
Washington also says that Andruw Jones will hit cleanup when he's in the lineup. Not sure why a guy who has been terrible the past two seasons, and isn't good enough to be an everyday player should be locked into the #4 hole when he is playing, but hey, what do I know...
Jeff Wilson has a story on the comebacks of Benson and Jones, and their attempts to resurrect their careers here in Texas.
Jim Reeves has a column on Michael Young's transition to third base.
Gil LeBreton says fantasy baseball is stupid.
Jean-Jacques Taylor says that releasing Frank Catalanotto shows that Tom Hicks is serious about winning, because it is hurting his bottom line to do that. I don't think that makes any sense. J-JT also seems to be a big Andruw Jones fan.
T.R. Sullivan has some bloggy notes up.
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but
there is a good chance the 4 starter will face the 3/4/5 of the other team throughout the first half…
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
"AMMIITAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABHH!!!"
And since
there is not much difference in the Rangers 1-5 guys, all are pretty mediocre, it really doesn’t matter.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
If I see his name on in the lineup opening day
I’m going to run out on the field and close line Warsh.
My cool sig.
by Cecilio's Guante on Apr 3, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions
I had a dream last night
The Rangers beat the Reds 6-0 and Cruz and Davis were batting 4th and 5th in lineup. Both of them homered and Cruz had 2 walks as well
"Yeah, like I had a chance there" - Lancaster batter, after striking out against Derek Holland
JJT's column
reinforces for me that most sports columnists are complete imbeciles.
"The idea that the Rangers are going to be a solid contender for a number of years is a fantasy." - Adam J. Morris
I second this
Keith Law on Greg Golson, "He's similiar to Cameron and Hunter in that all three are black."
http://tinyurl.com/ranger-rage
+ 3 as if we needed more evidence.
Josh Hamilton puts his pants on one leg at a time just like you but once he gets his pants on he hits baseballs 420 feet.
i dont even bother with his articles
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
i refuse to click into his articles much like grandpa urine
i’m not gonna give them any extra hits to their website
Bring on April 6th!
woah, woah...
maybe so…but to base that on one of JJT’s columns? That’s like saying after watching Ron Artest “battle at the Palace” and saying all NBA ballers are thugs
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 3, 2009 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Fantasy baseball
I also have never really seen what the attractuion is to FB, but that doesnt make it stupid. It just makes it something that a lot of people enjoy and I dont
fantasy baseball
for some people gambling makes sports more fun and interesting.
for myself i get that from fantasy sports.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Not stupid
But I think he was (partly) joking, and he did get in a few good digs. And, yes, I play and enjoy FB.
In fairness I didnt read the column
because the FWST columnists and baseball usually arent worth it
Excellent article by LeBreton
I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.
"I'm as passionate and knowlegeable as any fan out there." Josey Wales
by Brian Thomas on Apr 3, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
Putting the last man on the roster in a clean-up role
seems to foretell this will be Washington’s last season. He won’t make it through the whole season. Let the Deathwatch begin.
When John Ehrlichman, the President's counsel and assistant, asked Nixon why he kept Agnew on the ticket in the 1972 election, Nixon replied that "No assassin in his right mind would kill me."[
I have to agree
Unless somehow the Rangers hang in there all season long right to the very last week.
Keith Law on Greg Golson, "He's similiar to Cameron and Hunter in that all three are black."
http://tinyurl.com/ranger-rage
I've put way too much
effort and attention into keeping up with these awesome prospects to have them get to the majors and not have the best possible instruction from their manager.
If Wash isn’t the best possible person (looking that way) then get him out and bring on the best.
And who would be the best?
Keith Law on Greg Golson, "He's similiar to Cameron and Hunter in that all three are black."
http://tinyurl.com/ranger-rage
ding ding ding we have a WINNER!!
Josh Hamilton puts his pants on one leg at a time just like you but once he gets his pants on he hits baseballs 420 feet.
im not sure how you piss off ichrio
but hargrove sure did a number on him
put me in the bobby V camp
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
there's no reason to suggest that Bobby V would be any different
when it came to deciding over young players and stars. or Leadoff hitters with speed or OBP. Or any other advancement in the game over the last few years
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
starters
thats what i’ve never gotten either, your #2 wont usually end up facing the other teams #2 after a few weeks.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
BTB has their preseason picks up:
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
*have
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
Well at least there is one person
who likes one thing about the team: sky likes Cruz.
Have I completely missed something
How are the Rangers overrated?
I’m not sure I’ve seen one report that sets this team up to actually compete this year.
(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."
Josh Hamilton is overvalued?
how much does he make this year?
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
"AMMIITAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABHH!!!"
He made $396,830 last year.
My guess is he’s closer to $500k this year.
(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."
clearly
he’s overvalued with his type of production…
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
"AMMIITAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABHH!!!"
They're all stupid 'naysayers' anyway
(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."
I treated the question as overrated, publicly perceived performance value vs. actual performance value
Just FYI. Hamilton’s a good player and of course I’d want him at his salary.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
i was a bit curious there
’cause i understood the Ryan Howard pick…
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
"AMMIITAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABHH!!!"
Just good?
Is it his CF defense?
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
Yes, and while his .371/.530 OBP/SLG last year were sweet, it's not like he's a .420/.600 guy, and Texas is a bit hitter friendly
I’m just going off what I think his perceived value is by the majority of fans (not just Texas fans, thanks to his HR Derby performance and personal history), and he was a serious MVP candidate, yet played more like a borderline All-Star.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
While I wouldn't expect is OBP to change much
Maybe even slip a little, he was SLG around .600 before he ran out of gas last year.. guess we’ll see if it’s sustainable.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
"Borderline All Star" is a stretch
He was 4th in the A.L. in VORP last year. Even if you knock 10 runs off of that because of his defense, that would put him around 10 or so.
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 3, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
By Fangraphs WAR, he was at 4.1
4 WAR is an ok All-Star cutoff. Last year, 40 position players were at 4 WAR or higher, for example, about 20 per league.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Granted, but
His first half numbers were a smidge better than his second half (.310/.367/.552 vs. .296/.376/.498).
Even though I prefer high-OBP guys, I’ll trade nine points of OBP for 54 points of slugging.
Hamilton is my master and I hate anyone who says anything bad about him.
But, if I’m honest, I don’t think that’s a stretch at all.
I somewhat agree
The variance with Hamilton is huge. He could be an MVP candidate, or he could be injured/worn out by July again. While I’d like to see him build on 2008, its possible that he’s so polished and given his age that 2008 is his peak, and our best hope is that he maintains it for a while.
Gimme a break
“The cocaine ate my insides as well as my stamina” mantra is just stupid.
Hey now
Where in my post did I use the word “cocaine”? I wasn’t even thinking that.
Its pretty obvious that Hamilton ran into some stamina issues in July and August of last season. Do you want to debate that? He admits as much – it was his argument against playing in the WBC, remember?
Or are you disputing the point about him possibly not improving? He’s not your typical 3rd year player. He’s at his theoretical peak right now. Given that he’s a polished player with no obvious fixable weaknesses, its very possible, if not likely, that what we saw from Hammy last year was near 100% his potential. Which is great. But we’re not looking at a startling increase of productivity going forward.
Stamina was a slight concern last year
With never really having a day off, its not shocking that he ran out of steam in his first full season in the Majors. He still finished the season great and was healthy the entire time. Even if he gets tired like last year, I’ll still love his 2008 numbers which would put him in the MVP race (top 10 at least).
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Working on his swing
Didn’t I read somewhere that Hamilton said his struggles in July/August last year were a result of reworking his swing with Rudy? Stamina may have played a part, but I think changing his swing in the middle of the season played a part, too. If it was purely a stamina issue, he would not have rebounded with a strong September.
by NorCalRangersFan on Apr 3, 2009 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Hamilton
I think he changed his swing in the middle to end of august due to the slump he had been in for several weeks
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I had the impression
that is was a proactive change to prevent slumps. which of course led to a slump. so, who knows. I can’t find the article anymore.
by NorCalRangersFan on Apr 3, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
If I recall correctly
in the Rangers 30-in-30 special, he said he has changed his swing this ST to have less “moving” parts so that it will be easier to correct during the season.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
It was definitely last year
He said hes been using it since last September. I think the question is when did he start tinkering with it.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
then is was
probably during his Aug slump last year that he changed it.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Yeah thats what im thinking
Probably started mid August and his September was a result of the work. Then this offseason he made the major changes and so far in spring hes been looking really good.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
I think Dan (who organized this) DID mean overpaid, but some of us definitely ignored him.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
I definitely meant overpaid
and I definitely was ignored.
But I’m not probably not the most welcome here since I’m the one who called Rangers overrated.
Maybe it’s just hearing from philkid over at BtBS but I feel like I heard substantial chatter about the Rangers winning the division and I can’t see that this season.
Well, that’s not entirely true. I could see any of the four teams winning the division, but I think the A’s and Angels are more likely.
If the Rangers pitchers show good progress, I see them being a force next year (and potentially years after), but I think I need to see the pitching first. I said this over a BtBS, but I’m willing to be a year behind on the Rangers.
by Dan Turkenkopf on Apr 3, 2009 9:53 PM CDT up reply actions
the Rangers' dramatically improved
infield defense should go a long way in helping the pitchers progress.
"A good start would be not giving up 900 runs again." -Jon Daniels
by Randy Richardson on Apr 3, 2009 10:39 PM CDT up reply actions
That may be overstating things
unless you mean dramatically improved from the worst by far to just below average.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
What do we think the left side changes will do -- 20 more fielding runs?
And how about dropping from last year’s 3B production to the production of Andrus or Vizquel? At least ten runs, right?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
John Dewan
said it could save 40 runs.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Apr 4, 2009 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Like Dirk just said, Dewan said it could be save around 40 runs
Our 3B last year had a combined UZR of -24.2 and SS was at -3.5. So if Young is an average 3B like he is expected to be and Andrus brings that glove of his (along with Vizquel’s defense), its not hard to see how big of a swing that Young to 3B move can be.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Save 40 runs, right, but don't forget
that we’re also going to have to live with a big drop in offense at SS, and a lesser drop at 3B compared with last season. Big enough drops that it might cancel out the defensive improvements, especially if Andrus takes a while to get his legs under him with defensive gaffes and at the plate.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I don't really see it that way
I think the offense gets improved production from full seasons and/or improvements from Kinsler, Murphy, Salty, Hamilton, Cruz, Davis, and Blalock. That will more or less cancel out losing Vazquez’s great year and losing Bradley’s bat from last season to keep the offense about the same even with Andrus’ very questionable bat in the everyday lineup.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Fine, but we were talking about
specifically the left side of the infield, and the defensive runs saved above. If you want to argue that improvements elsewhere will mitigate Andrus’ bat, fine, but that’s a separate argument. The offense is not going to score as many runs this year, but it won’t be a huge dropoff.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I just don't see how you can expect more value from Hamilton and Kinsler?
They, of course, could be better, but both are coming off career years.
I love Cruz, though.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Wow, didn't realize 3B was that bad.
-4 runs for Young actually seems a bit high, too. (For what you might expect for 2009 at SS.)
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
i'm sorry guys
but holy fuck.
The A’s across the board? Really? If the Rangers were going out with that same pitching staff, people would be saying how the same old Rangers fielded a team full of young, unproven pitchers. I don’t see how simply putting on an A’s uniform is going to make that group of pitchers better. I guess if we had found a way to jam Holland and Feliz onto our staff they would love us too? Usually when a team loses its ace and closer before the season starts, that discounts their prospects. But not in this case.
It only makes them stronger.
Ridic.
Its a weird division this year
where everyone is within 10 games of one another. I’d put winning percentages like this:
37% Angels, 28% A’s, 20% Rangers, 15% M’s.
Having 6 of 6 go A’s wreaks of Beane infatuation. Sorry.
exactly
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
I can't speak for the other guys (so feel free to come on over to BtB and ask them)
But 1. I wouldn’t be bashing Neftali Perez or a couple other Texas prospects in the majors and 2. The Rangers haven’t gone with them, instead sticking with Millwood/Padilla/McCarthy/Benson.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Neftali Feliz
you hurt his feelings
(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."
I can't wait to see this Neftali Perez guy. Bet he's freakin' awesome.
When I see a solar eclipse I think "oh no, is the moon eating the sun?"
by Pocket Ninja on Apr 3, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Other prospects like Max Gonzales? What about Derrek Germany? Taylor Sodafountain?
When I see a solar eclipse I think "oh no, is the moon eating the sun?"
by Pocket Ninja on Apr 3, 2009 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wilmer Times New Roman?
(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."
Michael Mainstreet
When I see a solar eclipse I think "oh no, is the moon eating the sun?"
by Pocket Ninja on Apr 3, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Martin Feliz
(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."
Omar Provolone
When I see a solar eclipse I think "oh no, is the moon eating the sun?"
by Pocket Ninja on Apr 3, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Alfredo Bootscan
When I see a solar eclipse I think "oh no, is the moon eating the sun?"
by Pocket Ninja on Apr 3, 2009 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Michael Shellac
When I see a solar eclipse I think "oh no, is the moon eating the sun?"
by Pocket Ninja on Apr 3, 2009 10:31 AM CDT up reply actions
Pedro Cerrano?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Julio Cognac
Rock Flag & Eagle Radio: Thursdays 10 PM - 1 AM on FM 88.7 The Choice
"Computers can’t measure the size of a man’s heart."
- Hawk Harrelson, MLB Guru/Analyst
Wingding Font is the one mentioned around here that I like best.
JD: Adamant about 78 wins in 2009. Go Rangers!
HAHHA
nice.
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 3, 2009 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions
HAHAHA!
When I see a solar eclipse I think "oh no, is the moon eating the sun?"
by Pocket Ninja on Apr 3, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
i think i am going to customize my own neftali perez jersey from the rangers shop
what number should he wear?
00
When I see a solar eclipse I think "oh no, is the moon eating the sun?"
by Pocket Ninja on Apr 3, 2009 10:23 AM CDT up reply actions
That should be the LSB Tee
just to show how undervalued our franchise is
agree
i was in a fantasy league where you got to choose 2 minor league players from your team before the draft, and i told the guy that i wanted neftali feliz as one of them. So he puts down N. Perez and i correct him and he changes it to P. Feliz. So i may have pedro feliz on my team.
I hate people.
sometimes, anyways.
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 3, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions
That would be awesome
I’d buy one.
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
I want to be the next Annie Savoy.
by The Best Micah on Apr 3, 2009 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
best answer so far
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
His number should be "Elevendy"
a number that is greater than, less than, and equal to zero
When I see a solar eclipse I think "oh no, is the moon eating the sun?"
by Pocket Ninja on Apr 3, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
While those guys aren't great
Rookie pitchers with very little experience in the upper levels of the minors don’t tend to do that great right out of the gate. Millwood and Padilla are far from the greatest pitchers we can have, but both were still helping the team last year and I don’t see why you would expect their performance to hurt the team anytime soon. McCarthy’s only question is health. If he’s pitching, he’s performing better than Cahill and Anderson. I really can’t understand the love for the A’s rotation at all. Eveland, Gallagher, Braden??? What are you expecting out of them this year that they’re not only better than what the Rangers have, but are that much better to outweigh the offensive advantage Texas has.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
further to that point...
we have a significant advantage in offense, and we’re closing the gap on defense and the bullpen (if for no other reason than their closer’s out)
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 3, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
We might be closing the gap on defense.
But it’s sort of like closing the gap between continents as the steadily drift together.
not even Gallagher now (see my fanshot)
got replaced by Outman. So all in all, the BTB projects the As to win the division (and one, to win the world series) with a rotation that has a collection 62 major league starts between them: Braden, Eveland, Anderson, Cahill, Outman. Wow!
as a question
would most people pick braden/eveland over padilla/millwood? (if cost is no object)
i mean…wow. that has a lot of potential to be a HORRID rotation
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, I don't have a problem
with people feeling pessimistic about the Rangers, but predicting the A’s to win with that rotation just doesn’t fly with me. I predict the Angels by a little, not a lot.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
and their position players
are already starting to resemble the MASH unit that was our pitching staff last yr…
Is someone picking the A's to win the west unfounded?
It shouldn’t be. In which case, everyone picking them should be just fine. Surprising, but not “ridic.”
wow
i don’t exactly think the rangers will win the division, but being the last place pick by the majority??
surely they are better than the mariners this season
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
this appears to be a case
of uninformed group think. I expected better out of them, but this knocks them into the Reeves/JJT realm of sports analysis (still above Galloway, though…for now).
Guess we'll see, huh? ; )
We didn’t list win totals, which would make a difference. I personally don’t think the Mariners and Rangers are that far away from each other, in the mid to high 70s.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Well you have to admit
that the credibility of the panel is put into play when even one person picks the As to win the World Series…
"pick on"?
how old are you?
This is kind of unnecessary.
I think everyone needs to take a step back and stop freaking out over this.
by jwiscarson on Apr 3, 2009 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
If we really cared at all
we’d make our comments on their site.
the athletics in the world series with that rotation
is beyond funny.
even if you have gallagher instead of outman its still funny.
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
He had a few good starts when he came to Oakland
that had people all over Beane’s nuts saying how he just ripped the Cubs off.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
gallager
wasnt bad with the cubs
my point was that hes better than outman…
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
oh
i sometimes forget that in this seemingly infinite and anonymous internet community people actually stop by and read comments like these. so i apologize for the vitriol in my above comments. However, I do think the defensive upgrades this team has made seem to have been discounted, and offensive firepower the team still possesses still stands out in a shockingly weak hitting division, and the pitching staff, at this point, is not far off from the other staffs in the league.
I am really curious to know what it is that all six of you like about the A’s that makes them unanimous favorites to win the division.
and once again, further...
I think our rotation has the biggest upside (based on last year’s production – I know the Angels CAN get a lot better with healthy Lackey, Santana and Escobar). IF McCarthy stays healthy, IF Millwood and Padilla pitch like #2/#3 starters, IF Harrison shows improvement like he did in the 2nd half, IF Holland and/or Feliz makes the jump somewhat seamlessly, the rotation could make a huge leap forward.
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 3, 2009 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions
How do you know LSB isn't guilty of uninformed group think?
I think you might be going a little off the deep end because your favorite team got slighted.
I disagree with some of their picks but I don’t find any, at least in the AL West, to be bashable.
k
makes a little sense now…
There might be some rooting involved on my part ; )
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
"AMMIITAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABHH!!!"
Personally, I think
this much of an overreaction over preseason rankings is a real sign that we’re ready for the regular season to start.
i think it’s more surprise than overreaction.
i mean really, did the mariners improve themselves enough to go from 2nd worst team in baseball to third place in the division?
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Well, they did score 14 runs yesterday
there you have it.
(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."
The point is more that they weren't really as bad as their record suggested last year...
just like they weren’t as good in 2007 as their record suggested.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Using 3rd order W/L
In 2008, the Angels were an 84 win team.
The Rangers were a 79 win team.
The A’s were a 77 win team.
The M’s were a 65 win team.
I don’t see that the M’s have gained 14 wins on the Rangers this offseason.
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 3, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
that's what i'm saying
im not disputing tht the a’s an angels are at the top, but did the mariners improve themselves that much ??
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Thank you!
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Huh, that's about where I would have guessed, maybe a couple games higher for the Mariners.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
I'm confused
A 61 win team should have won 65 games last year which means that they weren’t as bad as their record suggested. How do they make it to the mid 70s to high 70s win total this year and take 3rd place in the division because of that? They still were one of the worst teams in baseball last year and they’ve taken away from their main strength (young SP) by moving Morrow to the bullpen. But who knows. Maybe Branyan puts it together this year.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
I outlined the improvements below (I think it's below).
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
The vitriol in the comments here
is more what I’m referring to. Sky and RJ are good about commenting here and backing up their opinions. I don’t think it’s so much to ask to take the post in context.
by jwiscarson on Apr 3, 2009 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, can we keep the rationality to a minimum?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
If the tables were to turn on all of you genius saber fucks, this would be a pretty good start
The Rangers will finish with a better record than the Mariners this year sir, and it won’t even be close.
by oc on Apr 4, 2009 2:26 AM CDT up reply actions
i have apologized for my vitriol above
but I am still waiting for the whole “rational answer” piece of the equation, both here and at BTB.
Didn't mean you specifically.
Sorry if I singled you out. It was an overall feeling I got from all the comments.
FWIW, I commented on some of your posts before I saw the apology.
Not that you need apologize to me because you weren’t attacking me, but it does make my posts irrelevant.
I think they may well have.
I’ve got the Rangers over the Mariners for a few reasons, but I don’t see any reason to get up in arms about someone having the Mariners.
i just fail to see how they improved and the rangers didn’t.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
I think the Mariners are projected by computers as being do for more (positive) regression to the mean than most teams.
And meanwhile they greatly improved in the field and at first base, and could get a meaningful season of Bedard.
I don’t see any of that with the Rangers. I personally don’t think it’s enough to put the Mariners over the Rangers, but I see it.
Mostly I think the Rangers stayed about the same. I think the pitching is due for some regression, but I think the offense is, too. We did improve the fielding, but we’re going to get less offense I’ll bet at DH, shortstop and third base.
the improved fielding might offset some of that lost offense.
i think the computers lower the rangers more because of bradleys bat leaving.
now on the bedard front, IF he returns to his old form then sure the mariners get a huge upgrade
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Some, maybe.
But that’s also part of why I’m taking the over on the projections. I don’t think you can assume our fielding will necessarily be that much better, though. Think it should be? Yes. But you should be able to see how it won’t and the Mariners could have the better record.
Anyone...
who picks the A’s to win a division (even a very weak one like the AL West) hasn’t looked hard enough at that teams starting rotation. Picking the A’s to win the WS is just borderline stupid. The A’s will be lucky to win 75 games.
The Halos will win the West by default.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
this is kind of my viewpoint
if santana/escobar/lackey are healthy, there is zero question who the favorites to win the division should be.
if 2 of the 3 come back and start 20-25 games theres still almost zero question who the favorite should be.
that said, the a’s rotation has a lot of potential, but considering that eveland was a failed prospect going into last year, braden cant (or can he now?) throw his best pitch – the screwball, gallagher couldnt beat out outman, outman is seen as a back of the rotation guy at his best, anderson is polished but has little experience at the upper minors/majors, cahill has little experience + has control problems and duch has the injury problems i would think that the a’s rotation somehow has more questions than the rangers rotation, which is REALLY saying something
i mean is the a’s bullpen (or rotation for that matter) in that much better shape than the rangers?
is their hitting that close to the rangers?
is their defense that much better than the rangers?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
no, on all three accounts
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 3, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
right
so why do they consistantly get picked/projected to be THAT good?
id love to see updated PECOTA with that rotation now
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions
when were they updated?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
"The A’s will be lucky to win 75 games."
I’ll take that bet.
How do you automatically assume that if someone picks the A’s it’s because they’ve looked at fewer factors than you, instead of more?
The same way everyone assumes...
that Texas will be horrible because their pitching sucks. If the Rangers pitching sucks then what does that say for Oakland? As bad as Millwood and Padilla are as 1/2 starters I would easily take them over the A’s 1/2 guys right now. Have you seen who Oakland is starting on opening day?
I understand that Oakland has got the young pitching to come through for them in the past. However those guys have nothing to do with who is in their rotation now. Oakland has the worst starting rotation in the AL right now. I don’t think Cahill and Anderson are ready and I see them taking their lumps early on. They may start the season 15 games under by June 1st.
Everyone assumes Texas’ pitching will suck because it always has. Everyone also assumes that Oakland’s pitching will be good because it always has been. I strongly disagree. Oakland’s starters are going to be very bad this year and until anyone can logically show me otherwise I can’t see how they can be considered a contender, other than the fact that they are just in a crappy divison.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
"The same way everyone assumes... that Texas will be horrible because their pitching sucks."
I don’t think that’s the same thing, but neither is really defensible without a little more evidence.
Also, don’t you think there’s a good chance that you are underrating Oakland’s pitching, not that things like CHONE or PECOTA are overrating them? You don’t even accept that as possible?
Look at Oakland's staff...
Cahill and Anderson have never pitched above AA. Eveland is the most experienced guy they have with 35 career starts and last year had a ERA+ of 93 and a WHIP of 1.48. Their opening day starter (Braden) last year had a ERA + of 98 and made 10 starts all year. Gallagher, Gonzalez and Outman, really?
All they can hope for is Duchscherer to come back healthy and do what he did last year, and I’m sorry but I don’t see that happening. Who knows when he will even be able to pitch this year.
They have a strong bullpen that will help some, but as it stands right now as far as A’s v. Rangers this is how I see it :
Starting pitching : Rangers (by a hair)
Bullpen : A’s
Defense : Push
Offense : Rangers
I find it funny that many pick the Rangers to finish 3rd or last while those same people are picking the A’s to win the West. I guess we shall see. It’s a long season, but I’m not drinking the A’s kool-aid.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
I'm not saying you are wrong.
I’m asking that you accept the posibility you might be and someone like Nate Silver isn’t.
I very well could be wrong...
happens all the time.
But I’m asking you or anyone else who thinks Oakland will win the West to tell me why. I want to hear a good reason for picking Oakland given their pitching staff. Since everyone knows that pitching is the key, right?
After all I’m pretty sure even Nate Silver has been wrong every now and then.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Meh...
and damn you. I’ve fallen into the same trap as many others here have. I shouldn’t get all worked up about people thinking Oakland will win the West. Who cares. That’s their opinion and their entitled to it.
My opinion is that they’re not a very good team and will be lucky to win 75 games this year. I’m not budging on it either! So =P.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
This is an honest question
Has anyone gone back to previous years to determine how accurate these various prediction systems were? And I mean systematically – not the anecdotal arguments the Marcel people put out.
Yes.
Can you point me to anecdotal evidence from the Marcel people?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Isn't argument from authority...
a logical fallacy?
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
I think Nate Silver...
is dreamy.
"I know you're a bit dense but no, it doesn't. Obviously lying isn't a problem for me."
I don't assume Texas' pitching will suck because it always has. So that's not everyone.
I assume it will suck because Padilla, Benson, and Dickey are in the rotation without anyone projected to be better than league average.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Millwood one time didn't give Sky an autograph
He’s a dick
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Engel Beltre clip:
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
Here's one of Tracy too:
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
by Kinslerhomer on Apr 3, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions
MLB Network - MLB Tonight
Anyone see last night’s clip on Andruw Jones? Had Magrane, Reynolds and Rojas talking about how much success he’d have in Arlington, and hinged it all on playing time. They all stated that it mattered how many games he was able to get in to, because his in success in Atlanta was helped by the fact that he played 150+ games. In LA he was hindered by not being in the lineup on a consistent basis.
Ruh-roh.
(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."
If he hits
well enough to merit 130+ games, isn’t this move a good one? If he hits well enough to match Blalock’s production, wouldn’t the lineup be better with his right handed bat?
Now, if Wash just runs him out there because of his name and not production (granted, he probably will) , this is an awful signing. But, and I haven’t seen it stated anywhere here yet, what if he hits?
Dude
Sosa didn’t hit enough to merit any playing time aside from limited LHP pinch hits. Instead of what he merited, he played every GD game.
with Sosa, we had who being blocked...
basically just Botts, right? who do we have blocked in this scenario – a combination of Davis/Blalock/Max-Ram/Cruz/Byrd/Murphy – the situation is MUCH different
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 3, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
He certainly hit well enough v lefties to be in there against them.
the preceding post was a great success.
LHP < 50% of ABs
So point being that Sosa was playing too much. Like Jones will play too much. Like Broussard played too much. Like Hidalgo and Jordan played too much. On and on.
that was a stupid argument
and magraine touched on it for a second from the other side because Andruw Jones couldn’t make contact last year.
Honestly, Andruw Jones better not play in 150 games. Last year, he only played in 70 because he sucked so bad, but the manager only stuck with him that much because of his contract. This year he better be traded/released halfway through the year because we’ll need the spot for players like MaxRam and Borbon.
Bring on April 6th!
yep, saw that too
i liked the line from Rojas about Harold wearing those boots with shorts and running around the studio.
My cool sig.
by Cecilio's Guante on Apr 3, 2009 10:07 AM CDT reply actions
reply to mtex...jeeebus
My cool sig.
by Cecilio's Guante on Apr 3, 2009 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions
BA with a detailed article on Nolan Ryan and long toss.
Newberg embedded it in his report.
Link
The part that sticks out to me in light of NoName’s comments that swimming is really, really important for rotator cuff strength is this:
Some of the young arms assembled for the camp, a collection drawn from the Rangers’ treasure chest of prospects, like lefty Derek Holland, also remember hearing about workouts in a swimming pool and a laundry list of other conditioning methods. Some bounced questions off him, but most stood there in awe.
.
.
.
“I did everything,” Ryan said, shedding light on his routine throughout a 27-year career that led straight to Cooperstown. "I’m a big believer in running sprints. I worked out in the swimming pool a lot. We threw long toss, and I’m a big believer in long toss.
JD: Adamant about 78 wins in 2009. Go Rangers!
So....
I am clueless about the accessibility of swimming pools to players as they train.
Do the Rangers have a pool at their ST facility? Will they install one at RBiA? How about in the DR academy? I realize it’s a bit more expensive to maintain a pool than to tell folks to do more long toss, but in the long run, if swimming as revealed by scientific work and through the experience of Ryan, wouldn’t it be a small expense compared to injuries and ineffectiveness from weak shoulders?
JD: Adamant about 78 wins in 2009. Go Rangers!
5cm isn't long...
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
You're just jealous
because my decimeters decimate your centimeters
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
nolan didn't actually swim
in the swimming pools. nolan was basically doing light weight resistance training and cardio.
he can't swim?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 3, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Over/under on Teagarden starts this year?
Is 75 too many?
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
Well
Is Teagarden a true backup?
Even just in terms of possible trade value…doesn’t he need more reps than the average backup?
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
by hightowersmith on Apr 3, 2009 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
4-2 lead late in the game
Do you bring in Teagarden as a defensive replacement?
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
really?
I was just thinking that part of his value to the team was just that. Late in the game, if Rupe goes out there and walks the lead off man (as he is wont to do) I would much rather have Teagarden out there behind the plate, giving that guy on first something to think about. That seems like a huge asset to have available, and its not like, if the next hitter should hit a two run HR to tie things up, that Teagarden is incapable of doing some damage with the bat later on.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
I'm not giving the ball to Rupe, either.
If a team is up by two runs late in the game, there should be a very tiny chance of losing with good late inning bullpen guys no matter who is catching. It’s not like Salty gives up 5 passed balls every game and throws the ball into the stands on attempted steals.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Well it was kinda like that
in 54g/52gs: 9E, 6PB, 40SB, so yeah, I’d have to say i would do it.
i agree with this
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Why not?
I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.
"I'm as passionate and knowlegeable as any fan out there." Josey Wales
by Brian Thomas on Apr 3, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
See above
I might if it was a one run lead, or tied game. I’d make defensive replacements in several other positions before catcher, not with the Rangers current personnel, but in general. I just don’t see Salty’s defense as being so bad it should jeopardize a 2 run lead in the last couple of innings.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
So, you are concerned about dissing Salts?
I'm Matt mutha-effing Bush, bitches, and mutha-eff East County.
"I'm as passionate and knowlegeable as any fan out there." Josey Wales
by Brian Thomas on Apr 3, 2009 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions
No
I am concerned about making unnecessary moves. Yes, Teagarden’s defense is awesome, but the odds of the opposing team scoring two runs in the last inning or two are very low no matter who is playing.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I think if Salty's defense is that bad
he shouldn’t be the starting catcher.
That is my backwards logic of agreeing with you. At 4-2, you keep your best allround players in the game. At 4-3, you bring in your ‘d’ guys
so at 4-3 you'd bring Tea in?
Josh Hamilton puts his pants on one leg at a time just like you but once he gets his pants on he hits baseballs 420 feet.
Maybe
My point above is that a two run lead in the 8th or 9th should be pretty damn safe no matter who is catching. If you think Salty’s defense is so bad that he can’t be in there in that situation, then he should not be the starting catcher, or you should just put him at 1B. Or you should immediately acquire much better pitchers, because they have a hell of a lot more to do with that lead than the catcher does.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
what if a run scores during the inning?
I think the idea of a defensive replacement is also to ease strain on the starter.
I think you’d want to bring in a defensive replacement in most 9th innings regardless of score. In fact, you should probably refrain from bringing in a defensive replacement when the game is close because you’d probably want Salty’s offense if the game went into extra innings.
That’s probably not coventional but that’s how I’d use them
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
At 4-3
last inning, how many teams would run? I think if you use TT as a defensive replacement, he’d come in during innings 6 or 7
Alot of teams would with Salty back there
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
i dont think its a question of if his defense is bad
say hes an average defensive player but teagarden is a plus-plus defensive guy — thats the difference imho
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions
depends on the opponent
and who is due to bat. Against the Angels I might actually start TT 12 of the 19 games.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
This is more pertinent to me
Start TT in games you feel will be close, or against teams that run a lot. Don’t just put him in there in the 8th inning.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Probably
If Salty is given 3 out of every 5 games that would leave about 65 games left for Teagarden. It’s hard to argue that Salty would be considered the starter if he were catching less than 3 out of 5.
JD: Adamant about 78 wins in 2009. Go Rangers!
I can see 75 games...
but probably around 40 starts if Salty’s healthy, producing at the plate and not hurting the staff
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 3, 2009 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
BTW, Adam
I like the addition of the images into morning reports
(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."
by mtex on Apr 3, 2009 10:37 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
I don't get it.
He goes on for a little bit and I’m following the logic, but then he throws Mauer and Martin out there – proven offensive and defensive catchers that Boston would trade for in a heartbeat for Bowden and Buchholz. Isn’t this the point? One somewhat unproven, potential star for another somewhat unproven, potential star? NOT, a guy who threw a no-hitter for an already All-Star caliber player.
(Wife) "So what do you want to watch on the T.V.? UFC or porn?"
(Husband) "Hmm... well, porn, I guess."
I think his point is that the pitchers are more of a proven commodity than the catchers.
That’s debatable. But, let’s not consider whether that’s the right conclusion to make about the players, but, instead, consider that Theo is actually taking that perspective. The idea is that Theo is willing to bet that Buccholz is more of a lock to be super-stud than Saltalamacchia.
What is the downside if he’s wrong? What if Buccholz doesn’t put it together this year but Saltalamacchia does? Seems like he could still make a trade to get Saltalamacchia at the ASB. Maybe he’d have to add another low-level prospect if Buccholz struggles and is sent back to AAA.
What is the upside if he’s right… That’s obvious.
What if it’s a wash? What if both players are lights out in the first half. Well, he would still have the option of trading Buccholz for Saltalamacchia at the ASB or after the season, plus he may get a bit more. But, he would have to re-evaluate what he could get in return, whether he should let Beckett go after 2010 and replace him with Buccholz, whether they are better off keeping both Beckett and Buccholz beyond 2010, etc.
I think Theo is wise to wait. Here is some of the spring training (home-team) press that Buccholz is getting:
Buchholz oppressed the Cincinnati Reds for six innings in a 2-1 Sox victory. He allowed three hits, one unearned run, walked no one, and struck out three. The downward movement on his two-seam fastball created a bushel of ground outs, and he dropped the best curveballs he’s thrown all spring, manager Terry Francona said. Willy Taveras led off the game with a single. Buchholz picked him off, then retired the next 12 batters.
I like the use of the word “oppressed” in that snip.
JD: Adamant about 78 wins in 2009. Go Rangers!
opressed, eh?
thats some strong language lol
havent seen that word in a baseball story before
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Probably meant
suppressed. More medical, less political heh ….
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -
"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce
by Ed Coffin on Apr 3, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
yea
the word suppressed makes me think of:
pol pot
hitler
stalin
mao
lol
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions
so is he starting for sure?
they’re pretty loaded ahead of him…
Beckett
Dice-K
Lester
Penny
Wakefield
Smoltz
Assuming Smoltz isn’t ready but Penny is, are they saying Wakefield’s the odd man out? or is Clay still going to go to AAA?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 3, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Forum fail.
I kept hitting the “z” and “c” keys…nothing happened.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
would
you do salty and main for bucholz
by blueballlefty on Apr 3, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Heard good things...
http://www.slate.com/id/2215241/
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
well again
I loved Half Nelson. So I have pretty high expectations here.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
Subtitles?
I’m out.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
I'm curious
If A. Jones has a solid year (i know it’s wishful thinking), would he be a Type B candidate?
we'll get a type B prospect
at the deadline if we’re out of it though…
Stability is key, and JD is a Beast.
Jindal - 2012
"AMMIITAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABHH!!!"
the Hamburger?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 3, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm pretty sure she's a Type D
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Apr 3, 2009 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Have you guys linked to this?
I don’t claim to be any smarter than these computers, although there’s definitely room for error in assigning playing time and the limitations of the simulator. But here are the combined (ZiPS, CHONE, PECOTA, Marcel, THT, CAIRO) projected standings:
Angels 85.5
A’s 81
Mariners 78
Rangers 72
CHONE, which I would pick over others if forced to pick one (just as good on the rate stats, and includes a decent fielding projection) says:
Angels 86
Mariners 82
A’s 78
Rangers 72
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
I can't believe
people think the Rangers will finish behind the Mariners. Honestly.
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
I want to be the next Annie Savoy.
by The Best Micah on Apr 3, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
same here
IF bedard comes back healthy
IF 2/3rds of their new OF plays as well as they last year (which is a strech in a lot of ways)
IF lopez doesnt regress
i just dont see any way they win 82 games with that team…
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Are those updated
since the rash of pitcher injuries? I’m not naysaying them, just wondering.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Angels---Why they might be worse than projected:
Ervin Santana and John Lackey are likely to open the season on the DL. While I assume that just about every pitcher will miss at least 2-3 starts a season in my depth charts, they could both miss more than that. Vlad Guerrero looks like he may be slowing down a little, and could underperform his projections. I’ve assumed Bobby Abreu will DH more than play the field, and his glove could hurt them if he sees too much time in the OF.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
That's one issue I have with with the projections
I’m also curious how they can project Andrus’ defense at SS and Young’s defense at 3B when there really isn’t any prior data to project from. If Dewan’s projections are right, they could improve the left side of the defense up to 30 runs better than last season.
879 runs allowed?
why didn’t anyone tell me we replaced our entire pitching staff with batting tees and the fathers of the opposing teams’ players?
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
that chone makes absolutely no sense
mariners with 82 wins?
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
People are underrating the Ms
but that still seems a tad high.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
The pitching
should be there, the defense as well, but that offense is pitiful. The Mariners will be a tad better than last year, but they will still suck pretty hard.
"Come on man you have to admit the average guy in a baseball clubhouse...... is relatively a douchebag." BGL.
The 2008-2009 Dallas Mavericks are the biggest teases in the world.
I mean
that too many are assuming they’re just going to be as terrible as last year. I can see them making an 8-10 game improvement if things go right.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
I'd agree with that.
"Come on man you have to admit the average guy in a baseball clubhouse...... is relatively a douchebag." BGL.
The 2008-2009 Dallas Mavericks are the biggest teases in the world.
i mean
do you really look at the mariners and think that their strictly defensive upgrades and Felix getting better have now added 15 wins? That’s projecting a ridiculous level of defense for them.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
maybe they’re projecting that they’ll getmoreanything out of him?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
This could apply to many comments here...
But as an outsider, it seems strange to give the Mariners no credit for Bedard, but give the Rangers big points for Andrus.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
made sense in my head
made less sense written out — for some reason i thought he was much worse last year than he was hmmm
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Not many people
give points to Andrus, definitely not big points. The biggest thing is that his defense will be a huge boost to the pitching and including the Young position switch, gives this team a huge boost in runs allowed. Dewan for instance said that the move could be worth about 40 saved runs.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
I posted this at BtB. Too much? There's probably 3-5 wins worth of regression in places, too:
Mariners making up wins:
1B upgrade from just awful to average: 3 wins
Johjima rebound: 2 wins
DH upgrade from Vidro to average: 3 wins
OF upgrade from Balentien/Reed to one of Gutierrez/Endy: 2.5 wins
SP upgrade from Batista and Dickey to more Bedard and better filler options: four wins
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
That's a lot of wins
made up from 30 year old players in demanding positions and with guys like Russel Branyan or Mike Sweeney. Can we really accurately project added wins from the type of guys the Ms added?
Depends how you define accurately, i guess.
But Sexson hit .218/.315/.381 last year. Vidro hit .234/.274/.338. Sure, about half a season each, but that’s just awful at 1B and DH (and Sexson was a bad fielder).
Plus Miguel Cairo .249/.316/.330.
Branyan has a career .230/.328/.485 line and CHONE projects something similar, with .050 points less in the SLG department.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Sexson was a bad fielder
but Lahair and Lopez helped make up for a lot of that last year according to UZR. With Branyan being his replacement there, I don’t think you can expect much better fielding at 1B.
And their replacement for Vidro is Ken Griffey Jr. I don’t see that as anything close to a guarantee of average production.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Branyan's a 3B by training. Career (well, for years UZR is available)...
he’s -7 runs per 150 games at 3B and average in the corner outfield. That suggests he should be at least average and maybe +5 runs at 1B, unless he has some sort of weird skillset.
Griffey’s been a league-average hitter the past couple years. And in a platoon, he’ll be more like .360/.460. As a DH, he takes a big hit in value, but that’s about league average, maybe a bit below.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
In limited time
he’s been just about neutral at 1B. Assuming he’ll be +5 runs now seems pretty optimistic and overall, you’re still not talking about much of an improvement over last year’s 1B defense.
Griffey’s been league average, but is nearing the end of his career. When you are talking about a guy like Sweeney taking up the rest of the playing time at DH when Griffey isn’t playing, I don’t see them getting much there either. Again, just compared to last year, you’re not talking about that huge of an improvement.
I still can’t see where they are picking up about 20 wins from last year’s record.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
20 wins now, huh?
Five from “they played like a 66 win team last year”.
Ten from “they’ve made a lot of smart switches and more players underperformend than overperformed”.
That’s 76 wins.
Mid to high 70s for the Mariners and Rangers. That’s all I’m saying.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
mid to high 70s
Well since you have the Rangers in 4th place, I’m going to work off the assumption that you think the Rangers will have around 75/76 wins and the Mariners with at least 76 wins unless you think they’ll tie.
5 wins from they played like a 66 win team last year, but the Rangers should expect to lose around 4 games despite playing almost exactly like a 79 win team (78.7 wins last season). Actually, looking at the BP standings, the Mariners 3rd order wins was 65.2.
10 wins from smart switches and regression to the mean. I guess I just don’t see where their smart moves and regression to the mean works so much for them, but the Rangers don’t get any improvements at all from their moves and instead see that all of their offense overperformed so much last year that they won’t come close to making up for the piss-poor pitching.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
x
Where is the improvement from Broussard/Botts for half a season? Surely that is worth a couple of wins?
ok
Branyan is worth 3 wins?
johjima rebound worth 2 wins? Why the hell would anybody expect a rebound?
and your SP upgrades are also ridiculous. 4 wins?
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
ok
You do realize how bad Richie Sexson was, right? negative 3/4 of a win in half a season. Branyan/Sweeney can be only 1.75 WAR and be a 3 win improvement.
Johjima’s career WAR from 2006 through 2008: 3.3, 2.7, .3. He’s likely not as bad as he showed last year. Plus, if he continues to suck, there’s Clement.
Starting pitchers:
Bedard’s probably worth 5 WAR over 200 IP. He won’t get there, so how many IP can we expect? How about 120? That puts him at 3 WAR, 2 WAR better than he provided last year. Maybe 5 WAR per 200 IP is a bit high, but he was even better in 2007.
Dickey and Batista combined to pitch 165 innings and negative 1.25 WAR last year. Average performance from Rowland Smith and others would be worth 1.5 to 2.0 WAR over that many innings.
That’s five WAR for the rotation, one more than I initially estimated.
Note: pitcher WAR based on FIP and IP.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
You're assuming a lot there
You’re assuming that:
-Branyan/Sweeney will hit well
-Johjima is going to rebound significantly from his performance last year
-The Mariners are going to make the right call on their catchers if Johjima struggles again this year
-Bedard is healthy and will pitch well when healthy
-Silva (65 ERA+ last season) and Washburn (90 ERA+ last season) will make up for Dickey and Batista last season
-Rowland Smith, Feierabend, etc. won’t go through any growing pains at all
I feel pretty confident that I can make those same type of assumptions with guys like Millwood, McCarthy, Padilla, and Harrison.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
We'll see.
I’m assuming Branyan hits below his career levels, which shouldn’t seem all that crazy.
Yes, the Mariners are much smarter this year. It’s completely different management.
I’m looking at more than 2008 performance for projecting these players. 2006 and 2007 data points matter, too.
No, Silva and Washburn compare to themselves. Rowland Smith/whomever compare to Batista, who was just awful.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
That's fine and all, but again, why don't the Rangers get this same benefit of the doubt?
Why is it that the Rangers are seeing such huge losses in offense while none of their pitchers are going to amount to anything? Johjima should rebound, guys like Branyan, Sweeney, and Griffey will hit as well as they have in recent years, but young guys with great ceilings like Hamilton, Kinsler, and Davis are supposed to all take huge steps back while Salty will never fulfill his potential. Harrison can’t replace Mendoza’s numbers from last year with improved stats, but Rowland Smith should have no problem improving Batista’s.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
x
don’t understand your 1B math. are you extrapolating sexson’s season over the year? why? Anyway, Branyan might be good but Sweeney isn’t contributing anything so you might get .5 -.75 win out of them.
"There’s clement: isn’t enough of an argument to assume 2 wins. And everything about Johjima screams that he’s hit his brick wall. I’d maybe give a .5 wins.
Pitchers:
Bedard got 1 win after pitching 81 innings and was significantly worse than previous years. For some reason you assumed that he’s not going to make his innings mark but that he’ll be completely fine when he comes back. Um… How about we at least project a 4 WAR season over 200 IP (which is still much higher than the 2.5 WAR season last year) and give him 100 IP. so 2 WAR – 1 WAR better.
Dickey and Batista combined for 226 innings (why are we so different here?) and about -1.4. I don’t know why Rowland Smith and others is assumed to be 1.5. Rowland-Smith alone (or a player of his caliber) if he was covering those innings might get to 1.5 but I think the other has got to bring that down a bit. I’ll give you 2.5 WAR better.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
EVERYTHING about Johjima?
What don’t you get about Sexson. In half a year, he was -.4 WAR. Cairo played some there, too and was a touch below replacement. Then there was a little Lahair (.1 WAR), and a little Lopez, who will be at 2B this year. Overall, that’s about neg .5 WAR.
Sweeney’s only going to hit against lefties. Even if he can’t post a league average line, it’s easy enough to find someone who can. Branyan, against righties, has a career .826 OPS.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Again, looking at the Rangers
They got about -1.8 wins from the Cat/Shelton/Broussard/Botts experiment last year at 1B. Instead of replacing that with a mediocre hitter like Branyan, the 1B depth chart for the Rangers goes Davis, Blalock, and then probably Max Ramirez. Davis was worth over a win there in about half a season of his rookie year. Why is it then that the same thing doesn’t apply to the Rangers to improve next year, or at least not get worse.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Thanks for the respect.
League-average players are 2.25 WAR. I’m going with slightly above average fielding and above average hitting to negative the negative position penalty.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
and johjima
how many people have bad seasons at age 34 and then rebound with good ones. You do factor in some rate of attrition right?
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
*correction
he’s not that old. Still, he’s not in his prime and I generally don’t think people in their 30’s bounce back all that often, especially when they weren’t superstars to begin with.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
Also remember that he is a catcher
A catcher that is 32/33 generally doesn’t have much left in his career.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Many players have down seasons and rebound in their early thirties.
That’s what these projection systems are based on, you realize – what have players done in the past given their past few seasons and age.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Absolutely love that the pundits are sleeping on the Rangers.
Just fuels the fire.
Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador
I think it's sad we're even discussing Branyan/Sweeney
They’re both part time players in their mid-late 30s. They combined for 1.3 WAR last year in part time play. I’ll honestly be surprised if they’re a 3 win improvement over Richie Sexson, even considering how bad he was last year.
How many innings does it project from Bedard?
I have my doubts Bedard will pitch a full season and be as effective as he was 2 or 3 seasons ago coming off arm surgery.
Does that project Morrow as a reliever or as a starter?
i would like to see you do this with the rangers as well
defensive upgrades at SS and 3B, etc
just curious
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
this same logic could apply to the rangers
millwood and padilla on contract years
a healthy McCarthy
salty and teagarden getting more playing time
davis in a full season
improved defense on the left side of the diamond
benson rebounding
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
General observation about projection systems and noise
It seems to me that since most projections are low-pass filters over recent history (capturing long-term trends) and integrating in historical trends, these projections tend to be insensitive to sudden shifts in ability. Which is sort of the point – you don’t want outliers to impair your projections.
But baseball players do have majors shifts in skills – there are non-linearities in the process, but they are unfortunately unpredictable and on an individual basis indistinguishable from outliers.
Why does this matter? There is a difference between King Felix’s 2008 being an outlier or being a bad omen for his long-term development. Between Ichiro’s 747 OPS being an off year or him just being Michael Young with a better glove. Is Chris Davis, whose 2008 was greater than his past would have predicted, real or not? These are specific examples of the problem with quantitative prognostication, but the AL West is loaded with them. Old guys trying to squeeze in one more effective year (Vlad, Abreu, Giambi, Ichiro), teams relying on rookies to take on big jobs, etc. Add in the inability of any projection system to assess probability of health, then a division where important players on every team have injury concerns becomes very difficult to project.
Prediction systems are good at making predictions under very controlled conditions. But they can’t really capture the variance associated with new random events (yes, diamond mind’s monte carlo approach can incorporate old variability, but even that variability is averaged out). Ultimately, the baseball season is played once. And variability is far, far more important in a division where all the teams have noisy conditions like this one. Ultimately, variability helps the teams that are objectively worse, because in a low variance environment, they’d usually lose. Add the noise, maybe they do better.
Therefore, it isn’t surprising that Seattle and Texas are benefiting the most from the chaos in this division, even though they have their own chaos as well.
Incidentally, in complex systems there is a theory that prior to any major system state change there is a lot of noise. I think we’re seeing that right now in the AL West, where the old state (Angels dominating) is about to change to a new one (A’s+ Rangers, maybe with M’s). It is an interesting thing to watch.
by JBImaknee on Apr 3, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah. I would wonder if the projections posted above were
the average of many projections or just a single projection with a single set of numbers.
JD: Adamant about 78 wins in 2009. Go Rangers!
It doesn't much matter if they are a single run or not
In fact, I’d argue that by having many runs, the system is filtering out all variability, which isn’t very interesting.
Its really a catch 22 – any single run means little, since it is very unlikely the season will play out that way. But the average means little, since the variance around the average is so high.
If the 1996 playoffs were played 100 times, I believe the Rangers win that series 80 times. The 1996 Rangers were better than the 1996 Yankees. But you play it once, and variability shows up, and the lesser team wins.
Uh, doesn't the variability show up if you simulate a lot of seasons?
Then you can get probabilities of winning the division or measures of spread for win totals?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Does the additional repetitions of the season
inject any variability? If so, how is that accomplished?
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Everything is on probabilistic outcomes.
For example, if Chris Davis hits a homerun in 10% of PAs (you know, to make him average 70 HRs over 700 PAs ; ), then each PA gives him a 10% shot at a HR. He might hit 50 HRs in some seasons and 90 in others.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Those 50 HR seasons
are when he only gets 300 PAs, right? :)
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
The variability does show up
but not when you report “average # of wins”
I think its better when people present these things as % chance of winning the division: From Diamond Mind: Anaheim: 55, Oakland: 25; Seattle: 15; Texas: 5
That is far, far more informative than saying “Hey, Texas averages 72 wins to Seattle’s 77! Seattle is a 5 win better team than Texas”. That is a useless measure, unless you are trying to make over/under bets in Vegas.
The article I linked to contains a whole bunch of measures of variability.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
I know, I read it
and I don’t really have a problem with the article. I think that it addresses many of the issues inherent with prognostication. Particularly the one I’m harping on
4) These are the averages of 1000 seasons, so the results will tend to regress towards the mean. The final standings will not look like this, because they only play the season once.
I guess I have more of a problem with people saying “the computers say that the Rangers will win 72 games” The computers say that the Rangers’s wins will fall around a mean of 72 games, with a standard deviation of 7 wins. Since Seattle’s u+s is 78+/-7, and Oakland is 81+/-6, and Anaheim is 85+/-6, its hard to really say there is significance there. There probably is between Anaheim and Texas, but doubtfully anywhere else.
Those are some pretty big standard deviations.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
Yup. There's a lot of flukiness in a baseball season.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Also, some Vegas lines, from VegasWatch.net:
Arizona- 86.5
Atlanta- 83.5
Baltimore- 73.5
Boston- 94.5
Chicago C- 91.5
Chicago W- 79.5
Cincinnati- 80.5
Cleveland- 85.5
Colorado- 77.5
Detroit- 82.5
Florida- 76.5
Houston- 74.5
Kansas City- 75.5
LA Angels- 89.5
LA Dodgers- 82.5
Milwaukee- 80.5
Minnesota- 83.5
NY Mets- 88.5
NY Yankees- 97.5
Oakland- 81.5
Philadelphia- 87.5
Pittsburgh- 69.5
San Diego- 71.5
San Francisco- 80.5
Seattle- 72.5
St. Louis- 82.5
Tampa Bay- 87.5
Texas- 73.5
Toronto- 80.5
Washington- 71.5
http://vegaswatch.net/2009/03/mlb-totals-contest-2009_29.html
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Nobody is arguing the Rangers
and therefore I think the Seattle line is very telling.
Personally, I wouldnt’ mind spreadin $1000 over the M’s and Rangers on over bets.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
I dont know
The Mariners could go sell mode at the deadline.
"My mother always taught me that if the only thing you have to say is,
‘(Expletive) Dave Samson,’ then don’t say anything at all.
So I’m not going to say anything at all.
Is my mother the greatest or what?"
- Mariners GM Bill Bavasi, after signing Ichiro to a $90 million contract
O/U
I would put money on the under for Boston(94.5), Detroit(82.5), Toronto(80.5). and take the over on the Cubs(91.5) and Rangers(73.5). I’d feel very confident that at least 3 of those would be winners.
"A good start would be not giving up 900 runs again." -Jon Daniels
by Randy Richardson on Apr 3, 2009 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions
toronto at 80 wins
and finishing 4th in their divison – has that ever happened before? lol
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
by knockoutking on Apr 3, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Cardinals had 86 wins last year
and finished 4th in the NL Central
"If you can't get up for this kind of game, Lord have mercy, you might not have a heartbeat"
-Jerome Bettis
by Jason Brynsvold on Apr 3, 2009 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions
Jeez -
my first thought was “that can’t be right, the Cardinals finished 3rd.” I had completely forgotten how well the Astros played in the second half of last season.
"A good start would be not giving up 900 runs again." -Jon Daniels
by Randy Richardson on Apr 3, 2009 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions
And they won 83 a few years ago and won the division. Crazy.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Vegas Lines are Irrelevant
Lines are based upon nothing more than a chosen starting point then adjusted based on who bets what. To suggest that a Vegas line is some kind of evidence, or much worse, analysis, is just stoopid. Sorry, but I hate it when people quote gambling lines as some kind of proof. Dumb.
I hate it when people make assumptions about why I post something.
But it’s interesting that Vegas Lines get closer than many experts:
http://vegaswatch.net/2008/09/evaluating-april-mlb-predictions-update.html
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
If you don't explain yourself...
….people have to make assumptions. It’s silly to get upset about that.
I think Vegas lines are fine
that’s a hugemarket with lots of people putting money into it.
So, it says something that the Mariners are at low 70’s and not high 70’s or low 80’s
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
that's not entirely accurate
and it’s weighted by people who really believe – and most people only really believe when they have a good reason to believe.
Why would you think people with really good statistical analysis skills or people who are really close aren’t going to bet? In fact, why wouldn’t you think they are going to bet a lot of money – more than the lay person?
And, even if it is just a consensus of “lay people,” it’s a shitload of lay people. Why do you think community projections work so well?
Anyway, a market with free flowing information (not exactly the case here but a lot of information is available) and free transfer of money will do a really good job of ferreting out answers.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
In the abstract I agree
But I’m not sure why you seem to assume that the shitloads of lay people don’t or wouldn’t take their cues from the minority with really good analytical skills.
I guess in the aggregate that’s just the “free flowing information” you’re referring to, but it does dilute the potency a bit, I think, when a large majority of the market are making secondhand predictions.
In any case, I agree with this:
Anyway, a market with free flowing information (not exactly the case here but a lot of information is available) and free transfer of money will do a really good job of ferreting out answers.
Just looking at PECOTA...
…because their info is easy to access…
They are predicting 72-90, with the Rangers allowing 58 runs fewer than last season, but scoring 112 runs fewer than last season — 795 RS, 902 RA.
They project a significant drop-off in production for Ian Kinsler, Josh Hamilton, and Hank Blalock versus what they did last year, project David Murphy to be about replacement-level offensively, and project 39 starts from Benson and Harrison with an ERA of about 6.50, no starter posting an ERA below 5.00, and only two relievers posting an ERA better than 4.50.
So some of the assumptions aren’t very realistic, I don’t think.
BP has the Rangers as the 2nd worst team in baseball, and by far the worst team in the A.L. I just don’t see it.
by Adam J. Morris on Apr 3, 2009 11:33 AM CDT up reply actions
39 starts with a 6.50 ERA?
That’s ~20 starts each. Please tell me when an old vet, or a rookie were allowed to compile those numbers. It may have happened recently, but I do not know for certain. It just seems highly improbable that a club could/would do that.
"...my balls are really like a veiny flesh color" blueballlefty on Jun 4, 2008 7:44 PM EDT
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
IMO
Benson won’t last that long if he pitches like that. I doubt Harrison sucks that bad. What in G-d’s green earth makes anyone think Hamilton will regress? Protection comes from anyone one of Cruz, Blalock, Jones(gulp), Maximus, Davis. Please. Josh will be fine. Same with Kins.
It’s just negative nancies clowning the habitual losers. Second last year with a weak ass D, a HORRIBLE pitching staff, countless injuries and breaking in 5+ new players. Angels are worse this year, A’s aren’t better just younger with an old, unroided Giambi and new park playing Holiday, and the M’s don’t warrant any conversation. If I can get an over/under on that total, I’d might put up my deed to the house.
PS All of this doesn’t even account for the schedule which is WAY slanted towards the Rangers this year. It wouldn’t surprise me on bit if the Rangers won 85+.
Your 2009 Snow Monkey Ambassador
I'm sure ALL of these unbiased independent sources
without ties to the Rangers are just full of predictable shtick and nothing to take seriously.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
You really think the Rangers are rolling with Benson for 20 starts
if he posts a 6.50 ERA?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
To play devil's advocate
(which is nearly the same as agreeing with Josey) no, but the replacements might not fare any better.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
You don't think
Holland could put up an era under 6.00 in the MLs right now?
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
i could see ots of reasons why that wouldnt' happen
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
Holland might
but he might not, and he might not be the first guy that gets the opportunity. The basket of pitchers likely to be used might very well have a horrendous ERA.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
The replacements may not fare any better
But I don’t see why Oakland goes to the WS with Cahill and Anderson in the rotation but Holland and Feliz couldn’t possibly replace a guy with a 6.50 ERA. I don’t have a problem with a lot of the assumptions people have made, but I think its ridiculous that the Rangers can’t make any of these assumptions ever. Young, unproven pitchers for division rivals=slightly below average starters at worst. Young, unproven pitchers for the Rangers=ERA’s in the 6’s. Guys like Harrison, Feldman, and McCarthy are looked at as scrubs at best. Eveland, Braden, Mosely, Rowland Smith, Loux, etc. are looked at as capable fill ins.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
I said nothing
about Oakland going to the WS. I wouldn’t make any rosier assumptions for their 6th and 7th starters than I would for the Rangers.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
being the worst a year too late
they needed to tank LAST YEAR!
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
Hamilton is one of the bigger reasons I take the over on PECOTA's projection.
But I’m not about to dismiss it.
you're not smarter than the computers
but you pick the A’s to win the division
If you want some slack, bring your own rope.
by rangerfaninva on Apr 3, 2009 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I actually did post a link to this.
My problem is just with applying equal weight to projections with inequal past reliability.
Rangers 30 in 30 on right now.
My cool sig.
by Cecilio's Guante on Apr 3, 2009 11:01 AM CDT reply actions
ESPN Rangers video preview:
"It doesn't look like he's trying. It kinda pisses me off," "He could throw 110 if he tried. The way it explodes out of his hand is really something special." ~ B-Mac on Feliz.
World Series incentives
everybody should get a 1M one
I think the fans could raise the money to pay them off
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
because even
as much as we all hate the idea of jones being on the team. we would allow for him to win world series mvp if it came down to it
by dustinvandeman on Apr 3, 2009 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions
the whole andruw jones saga
pisses me off every day i wake up.
Question about CHONE
I am not sure if this is with all of the projection systems, but the park/league adjustment thing in CHONE works funny for the Rangers.
The pitchers are adversely affected by Park/League adjustments, for example:
Millwood is projected to have a 4.89 ERA in 2009, but 4.49 for neutral park/league
Padilla projects 4.91 ERA, but 4.49 for neutral park/league
McCarthy projects 4.67 / 4.30 ERA
Harrison: 5.23 / 4.88
Francisco: 3.39 / 3.09
CJ Wilson: 4.19 / 4.66
So a rough estimate gives that the park/league cost our pitchers on average 0.35 run/ 9 innings, which comes out to be about 56 runs over the whole season. In other words, our pitchers are projected to give up 56 more runs in an entire season because of park / league effects being more “hitter-friendly” than neutral. This number matches up reasonably well with the park factors floating around of about 107.
Now the hitters are a different story…
Josh Hamilton projects in CHONE a line of .290/.363/.513, but if adjusted to neutral park/league, his projected line is /.291/.367/.515
For Chris Davis: projected .265/.316/.492, but neutral park/league projects .264/.318/.483
Kinsler: .286/.359/.468 vs. .287/.363/.468
Young: .295/.351/.423 vs. .296/.354/.424
Salty: .253/.333/.404 vs. .254/.338/.406
Nelly Cruz: .271/.347/.495 vs. .272/.350/.497
In every case, the projected numbers for hitters are a bit worse than the neutral park/league projections, which means that our hitters are expected to do worse than playing in a neutral environment. I am not quite understanding this, why is it that both the pitchers AND the hitters on this team are projected to suffer from the park/league adjustments? I only checked the AL West teams, but Angels seem to suffer the same problem in the projections (both hitters and pitchers are projected to be worse than neutral park/league), while the projection for Oakland and Seattle works logically (hitters do worse, but pitchers better than neutral park). Is there a logical reason for this?
oops, I screwed up the CJ line
it should be 4.19 projected, but 3.66 neutral park/league
the only thing i can think of
the temperature – which would adversely affect everybody, but wouldn’t adversely affect opposing pitchers/hitters because they are only coming in for a few games while the Rangers have to play everyday.
Still, I doubt that is what is going on.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
It was hot in Texas
before the Ballpark was built. Arlington Stadium was considered a pitchers park.
In the history of the Ballpark
Ranger pitchers have given up 1 run per 7.28 PA’s at home. 1 per 7.29 on the road.
There hasn’t been a statistical difference.
you are assuming
that teams should hit equally well at home and on the road. But, teams generally hit better in their home park for a variety of reasons, so that number you gave possibly suggests that RBiA is a hitters park.
"A good start would be not giving up 900 runs again." -Jon Daniels
by Randy Richardson on Apr 3, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
yeah
other teams runs at BPIA: .1373/PA
other teams runs at everywhere else: .1371/PA
Basically the exact same – so the park factor is equal to the home/road split. How much can that possibly be?
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
How about runs per out?
When you score more runs, you use the same number of outs, but use many more PAs because more positive events occur compared to the number of outs.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Pitcher lines include fielding, too
But it is interesting that CHONE appears to use a very neutral park adjustment.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
$
I understand that, but I was not sure whether the defense park of the projection was included in the base projection or the “park/league” adjustment part.
So you are saying that the defense is a part of the “park/league” adjustment, right?
My guess is that the ERA projection includes everything, while park/league is solely a measure of pitcher performance, with everything else neutral (including fielder).
Not 100% sure though.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
I love all the...
speculation and arguing about what should or will happen this season. It’s just an opinion, who cares. There are so many things that can happen during the course of a season that it’s impossible to predict who will finish where.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
i'm arguing ridiculous assumptiuons
hidden under the veil of stupid statistics and acronyms. After reading this thread, I want credentials because I don’t think he understands anything more than the word regression.
Seriously, if BTB is supposed to be a flagbearer of new statistics, I want to elect new leaders.
Ceterum censeo Cat esse delendam - Cahill the Elder
by ab03 on Apr 3, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
They're good over there
But I do have my doubts about Graham Goldbeck after reading that.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
I think you've brought up some excellent points
about M’s vs. Rangers assumptions, and I do think that most people tend to dismiss Rangers pitching because of historical precedent, whereas other teams get the benefit of the doubt. Although I think their season projections are largely a gag (all of indicated they felt that way in the post), I’m interested in an explanation as well, just in case we don’t see the forest for the trees (or if they don’t).
I just also think you can question people’s assumptions without calling them names (not that you have).
by jwiscarson on Apr 3, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
this is all like deja vu
didnt this happen last night?
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
I agree with two things you said whole-heartedly.
This:
do think that most people tend to dismiss Rangers pitching because of historical precedent, whereas other teams get the benefit of the doubt.
And this:
I just also think you can question people’s assumptions without calling them names.
dont be too hard on them
but yes, the goldbeck dude has some squirllly picks
anyway with quotes like this:
Graham: Yeah so I’ve got some change on the A’s at 60:1 so sue me.
and saying pujols is underrated (by who?) and bitching about the fact that mark ellis doesnt have a GG (…its a gold glove, its not like its exactly an exact science or rewards the best defensive players in baseball, obviously)
i mean, is he supposed to be the funny guy? the guy no one takes seriously?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
Oh, I DEFINITELY think Pujols is underrated in a lot of baseball circles I spend time in.
I don’t think people realize just how awesome he is. And he’s at the very least overlooked in the media.
It might be because he's boring, but if that was the case the fact would still remain.
Also, you can be universally recognized as one of the greatest on the field and still be underrated.
It would take more fans recognizing just how much better he is than most baseball players.
More Gold Glove recognition (not just in actual awards but in discussions). Better MVP finishes. More appreciation that we might be seeing the peak of the best firstbaseman in the history of baseball.
I think people realize he’s great and one of the best. I don’t think many people recognize him as twice or better as valuable as almost every Major League Baseball player.
In the baseball circles I post and talk in, in awards voting and in the media, I definitely don’t think he’s given the credit he’s due. It’s just as simple as that and it’s a subjective thing.
Better MVP finishes?
Jeez you must have high standards.
He finished 2nd in 3 of the 6 years he didn’t win the thing. The only travesty was ’07, but that was a “down” year (by his standards).
But in any case, I wouldn’t rely solely on relative measurements.
Why wouldn't I have high standards for Pujols?
If I think he should be the MVP every year in a unanimous vote and he doesn’t, then that’s one measure by which he’s underrated even if he never finishes worse than second.
(This is a rhetorical example.)
Right
But you can see how poor that argument is, since he’d only be underrated to you, while you’ve been arguing this whole time that he’s underrated by the baseball community as a whole.
I hardly think not voting him the unanimous MVP every year is indicative of a lack of respect, and that can’t reasonably be your basis for this.
I'm confused.
I don’t think he’s underrated TO the whole baseball community. I think he’s underrated BY the general baseball community.
If you ask me who I think is underrated of course it’s going to be who’s underrated to me.
Also, the unanimous thing was rhetorical. I do think Pujols is underrated by MVP results (like last year, where it was much closer than it should have been). That is a part of the basis, though. Most of the basis just comes from Pujols discussions with friends and on general message boards and listening to the media when they have “best player” arguments when it’s Pujols and that’s that.
Your confusion
Is your own doing. You were using who’s underrated TO you to explain who is underrated BY the baseball community. Of course it makes no sense.
TO ME Albert Pujols is underrated BY THE GENERAL COMUNITY
Seems like the aim of the question when it’s typically asked. I’m fairly certain asking “who’s underrated” is meant to be taken as “who, in your opinion and experience, do you think people tend to underrate.”
Right
But your reasoning was that, to you, he should have been voted the unanimous MVP every year. You’re imputing a standard which has never existed to gauge the value of a player to the baseball community.
So how do you think you should measure whether or not someone's underrated?
Seems like a subjective thing to me. Is there a formed standard for how to guage where a person is rated and whether or not it’s appropriate that’s acceptable above all others?
Furthermore, the MVP finishes were one part of the greater picture. The people who vote on the MVP awards are one part of the baseball comminity. So how they rate Albert Pujols seems, to me, relevant to the discussion.
Finally:
But your reasoning was that, to you, he should have been voted the unanimous MVP every year.
As I have said twice, that was meant to be rhetorical. It is purely a simple example meant to illustrate that just because a player is highly rated doesn’t mean he’s not underrated.
TO YOU
You seem to have no limits to how high he should be exalted.
The measure, obviously, lies in the murky middle known as “reasonableness”. That’s where the subjectivity of the community and the objectivity of the stats should meet when determining value.
Of course, your rhetorical example is on the outside looking in.
Well you are incorrect, then.
Of course there are limits to how Pujols could be valued without being overrated. They are, however, extremely high.
So what is the determined value of Pujols, then, and where is the proof that he is not underrated by that standard?
Two questiosn for you, Gardner:
1) Are you just out to argue, or do you actually think it’s dismissably crazy to think Pujols is underrated?
2) If you think it is, do you have a convincing standard to present that he is not?
I don't think
It’s “dismissably crazy” to think he’s underrated. It’s obviously a subjective thing.
But on the flip side, you’ve not really offered anything to “prove” that he is underrated, excepting some confirmation-biased media recollections and talks with your friends.
I’m content knowing myself that he is one of the best players I’ve ever seen.
I can't prove he's underrated.
I don’t think it’s undeniable that he is. Like you said, it’s subjective.
My original point is that I don’t think it’s dismissable or a sign of “squiriliness” to think he is underrated. And I am among those who find him to be underrated in my experience.
There’s nothing more to it than that. And whatever standard people use to agree or disagree is probably fine and unimportant. But if someone says he is or isn’t underrated, either way, I don’t think there’s much to complain about.
exactly
-hes not underrated by the mainstream media
-hes not rated by the people i know that only know a little about baseball or that only kind of follow baseball think pujols is one of the best players in the game
-hes not underrated by fantasy players (or a guy who has more value in the real world than fantasy)
who underrates him?
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
Yup.
How many fans realize they’re watching their generation’s Lou Gehrig?
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Disagree.
I don’t think people realize just how awesome he is
No, I think they do.
And he’s at the very least overlooked in the media.
That’s what happens when you play in St. Louis.
If you'd like to break it down position by position with the Rangers, I'm happy to go through it with you.
I enjoy discussing baseball, it just gets old when everyone else gets to throw punches I have to absorb and deflect. I’m not always right, I’m not perfect, but I (if I may be so bold) I think I (and everyone) deserves a little more personal respect.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
i guess i just assumed
the whole entire point of a “forum” was to discuss, challenge, speculate, and argue.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
What do you mean by impossible to predict who will finish where.
If you mean, “know for certain”, I agree. If you mean “know better than someone else”, I disagree.
Beyond the Boxscore // Calling BJ Upton lazy is lazy.
Nice article on Mike Young.
“I’ve worked with [infield coach] Dave Anderson on what I need to do at third and I’ve gotten with [hitting coach] Rudy [Jaramillo] and told him, ’I’m tired of this. I’m better than what I showed last year,’ ” Young said. “I’m better than that, and I want to get back to where I should be.”
I’m glad to hear that he acknowledges how badly he sucked at the plate last year. I sure hope he rebounds.

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