Video: Derek Holland and Zach Phillips
I've added videos of Derek Holland and Zach Phillips to my site. I briefly analyze Phillips, but I go more in-depth on Holland.
Specifically, I take a little time to break down the Lincecum comparison. I think you guys will enjoy it.
[This was supposed to go up at 7:00 AM (like everything else I publish), but there were apparently some technical difficulties with the scheduled publishing feature at my blog.]
almost 3 years ago
NoNameOnCard
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Slow Motion
very dramatic. I can see the similarities between Holland and Lincecum, but Holland seems more fluid — to my untrained eye, and perhaps less of an injury risk.
That's why they call them business sox
Part of that is the slow motion itself.
Lincecum is definitely more explosive. The difference between the two really is in what they do with their arms. Without slow motion for Lincecum, it’s hard to compare injury risks.
True about slow motion
and I personally have no way of judging. I’ve just read that Lincecum might be an injury risk. I speak exclusively out of my ass.
That's why they call them business sox
My impression is that Lincecum's arm action is a little too sudden and therefore violent.
There’s a whole lot of torque going on in his elbow when he transitions from his pick-up to his throw.
While I waited for some car maintenance to finish
I read an article in ESPN The Magazine about Lincecum. The author mentions that his father taught him the motion, and that the “grab”/L-arm action is completely intentional (it sets him up for an explosive delivery). Furthermore, his father told college scouts “None of you are going to change him” (I may be accidentally paraphrasing a bit here).
Not that loads of baseball people know a lot about biomechanics, but it kind of galls me that his father thinks he knows more than professionals without any just cause. The analysis of Lincecum I’ve seen from Kyle over at Driveline Mechanics seems to indicate that he has superior arm strength which allows him to get his forearm nearly vertical before footplant, but even so…
As a complete amateur in this stuff, I think what you said makes a lot of sense regarding Lincecum. Even if his forearm’s vertical at footplant, that much force being exerted on a joint at such high velocities just can’t be a great thing.
It has more to do with the order in which things happen with that type of pick up.
The muscles on the anterior of the forearm (pronator, wrist and finger flexors) can fully compensate for the stress that causes UCL tears, but they do not contract fully until the arm is moving forward. The moment in between the cocking (or external rotation) phase and the launch (or throwing) phase is when the most damage is done.
The torque is created when the body stops the arm from externally rotating. I don’t have the expertise to calculate the torque that he generates, but I’m sure it is massive. Without high-speed video (in Lincecum’s case, probably 1000 fps), it’s impossible to tell what those forearm muscles are doing when his elbow exeperiences that torque.
Is forearm flyout a bad thing? How bad?
I knew a girl who said Holland made her think of Lincecum watching her and I didn’t see it. Not that I thought she was wrong, I just didn’t see it. I think I do now.
Hard to say really.
There are two main arguments against the action – both originating from Dr. Mike Marshall – and I don’t know enough to argue against their validity.
(1) The brachialis muscle eccentrically contracts (lengthens while contracting, like lowering a free weight) during flyout to prevent the olecranon (end of the ulna) from slamming into it’s fossa (notch) in the back of the humerus. Dr. Marshall seems to say that the collision is unavoidable despite this contraction. I’m not 100% on board with that analysis, but I have nothing with which to refute his claim.
(2) The contraction of the brachialis muscle precludes a kinetic contribution from the triceps brachii. This basically means that the pitcher could be using at least one more muscle to add velocity.
So, I guess the idea is that if the ulna is going to slam into the fossa,
the ulna collateral ligament will be stretched and stressed repeatedly by that movement. I think that’s what this means. Am I on the correct track? So, I guess the idea would be to have a more vertical orientation of the forearm during the throwing motion, which would necessitate in Holland’s case either a higher release point or that Holland remove the “showing the center fielder the ball” bit out of his windup. I’m not advocating or suggesting they should be worried about it, just thinking it through to the logical end point.
Also, that little leap when they open up their front foot is really as interesting to me as the the trunk twisting. Those two moves together appear to be the power generators of their motion. I think I remember Roy Oswalt having a jump like that.
I will say that in the less scientific, technical, and analytical parts of my brain, the ulna slamming into the fossa sounds rather dirty.
JD: Adamant about 78 wins in 2009. Go Rangers!
Actually, the fossa-slamming is not a risk factor for the UCL.
It can cause symptoms that are similar to triceps tendonitis. When the olecranon slams back there, it causes trauma. The body responds by sending more calcium. This strengthens the bone, but it also causes it to lengthen and enlarge.
I imagine that this can take the form of a bone spur under the right circumstances.
The end result is a lack of ability to straighten the arm and lots of pain. I believe this flaw is what resulted in Jay Powell’s horrific elbow injury, and it might be responsible for the stress fracture that kept Pedro Strop out of action for nearly all of 2008.
My personal belief is that it has more implications for performance than for injury since the major injuries seem rare to me, but that’s mostly based on my personal perceptions rather than anything concrete.
Lincecum
always makes me think of a trebuchet with that late, quick arm action.
I only saw a couple of reference to Holland’s velocity during spring training, but they were good, indicating he is still around the mid-90s.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
When I watched Holland in spring, exactly what I thought of was trebuchet.
I even posted a pic of one in the thread.
Thank you for making me feel like I’m not crazy.
I didn't think of a trebuchet ...
… but I definitely noticed the late snappy arm action after a smooth wind-up.
In person I never noticed. The CF TV camera angle sure emphasized it more
than sitting behind the 1b dugout.
There are three pitchers I'd really love to get quality footage of...
Javier Vazquez and Derek Lowe – Two absolute horses that have never been on the DL.
R.A. Dickey – A pitcher who doesn’t even have a UCL (and maybe never did).
That would be very cool...
Seems like all the analysis I read from whoever is on what’s wrong with this and that…well where’s the examples of what to actually teach? So that would be a cool project I’d think. Not that they’re probably perfect but just to get a general sample of what to actually do to stay healthy.
by slimshadty12 on Apr 11, 2009 9:39 PM CDT up reply actions
I have a feeling that they're a little bit freakish genetically, but I'm really interested.
I know that Jered Weaver and Jose Arrendondo are guys who use something that looks like the pendulum swing ball pick-up, but I’m very, very interested in what Vazquez and Lowe have been doing mechanically to escape arm trouble.
Arredondo actually looks a lot like what Dr. Marshall teaches. I’d add him to my list as a guy who intentionally or unintentionally executes a lot of Dr. Marshall’s motion.
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