Defending C.J. Wilson
by Adam J. Morris on May 23, 2009 10:30 AM CDT
51 comments
Among the various ancillary benefits of Nelson Cruz homering in the 10th yesterday is that we aren't being subjected to a barrage of "C.J. Wilson sucks" talk. At least, not as much as there would have been if the Rangers had lost.
I've mentioned before that I find it fascinating how quickly much of the fanbase has turned on a guy who has been, with the exception of the 2008 season, a pretty solid reliever for the Rangers. I'm not sure what has led to this hostility...if it is C.J.'s personality, if it is flameout as closer last year, or if it is just unrealistic expectations, the way he was hyped as being a future All-Star that have people being disappointed with him just being a good reliever.
And last night is the perfect example...reading the game day threads, there was the inevitable whining when he came into the game, and
the complaints when he gave up a co uple of hits. Here's C.J. blowing the game again...
C.J.'s not the guy who struggled to throw strikes yesterday, though. That was Jason Jennings, who came in, had issues with his control, gave up a long blast to Miguel Tejada for a double, walked Jeff Keppinger, of all people, and ended up having C.J. come in with runners on the corners with two outs.
C.J. faced five batters last night. He threw 11 pitches -- 10 strikes, 1 ball. He got Michael Bourn to hit a chopper on the right side of the infield, but because Chris Davis was playing in to guard against the bunt, it made it through for a single to right.
After striking out Lance Berkman in the 8th, Wilson gave up a grounder to third base by Carlos Lee, that should have been a routine out. But because Michael Young was standing on the third base line to guard against the double, rather than where he's normally positioned, what would have been a routine out was a single into left. He then gave up a line drive single to Hunter Pence that led to Darren O'Day being summoned from the pen.
But here's the thing...you can't demand that pitchers throw strikes and pitch to contact, and then torque out when those pitchers give up singles, particularly not-particularly-well-hit singles like Bourn and Lee got yesterday. Wilson did what we've been wanting him to do all along...he came in, trusted his stuff, and threw strikes.
If he does that, he's going to be successful. But if he does that, he's also going to give up some hits from time to time. The fact that happened yesterday doesn't mean that C.J. failed or that he sucked, as much as certain message board posters and post-game talk-show callers want to think.
People need to chill out when it comes to C.J. He's not a dominant closer or the lock-down setup man some thought he'd be. But he's not bad, either...he's a guy who has been fine in the bullpen for the Rangers, and who should be cut some slack.
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I'm not in the DFA CJ camp
but I have to laugh at this statement a bit
a guy who has been, with the exception of the 2008 season, a pretty solid reliever
People have short filters on bullpen guys because most bullpen guys appear and disappear really fast. To me, this is somewhat rational behavior with the bullpen
PhD
by JBImaknee on May 23, 2009 10:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There is nothing rational
about the venom that guys like Wilson, Feldman, and Davis have inspired at times in recent years.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on May 23, 2009 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
remember CoCo?
the guy was money for years and then sucked all of the sudden and we all hated him and he was traded within 3 months. He was much more important to the club than CJ ever has been and if the fans can turn on a guy with that background for the club, i see no reason the fans wont turn on a guy who cant close, cant setup, and at times looks like he is in such a self questioning funk, that even the hot girls who go to the games are sick of the act.
If he can be a solid loogy we put in for 1/2 and inning, fine, but thats not the bill of goods CJ twittered to us.
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
by Jayslick on May 23, 2009 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see a difference between Coco and CJ
CJ was pretty good last year until a point when alot suspect he injured himself even though he wouldn’t admit it. And now this year hes been pretty good, really good outside of the Detroit game, but still gets hated on for no apparent reason.
Coco was great for a couple years and then just fell apart. It wasn’t anything physical it was all mental and it cost us alot of ballgames. I see the reason people would be pissed at Coco alot more than why people are pissed at CJ
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on May 23, 2009 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think with Wilson in particular
and Davis to a lesser extent, the hype associated with these guys is so ridiculously great that when they are revealed not to be all-star caliber players people are angry and upset. I remember Jamey’s many e-mails two years ago talking about how CJ was the most valuable left handed reliever in all of baseball. All the discussion over whether he had more value as a closer or a starter. All of BGL’s posts around here only amplified that perspective of him.
Likewise, Davis moved through the system quickly with very good numbers, and people (here and around the league) started falling over themselves to pronounce him as being the greatest first base prospect in the game. It hit some sort of peak when people started claiming he could hit 70 home runs and stuff like that. No one stopped to see that he’s a good player with some very good skills and some serious questions.
I have no problem with CJ being considered a good left handed arm in the bullpen, or Davis being considered a good player to man first base. The problem is when these guys get anointed core players. They aren’t core players to the team (at least right now). They are good players to have, but they probably never have merited the hype they’ve received. And with undeserved adoration, you often get undeserved condemnation.
PhD
by JBImaknee on May 23, 2009 12:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hes a guy that should be in the pen
one way or another. hes a better pitcher than at least 2 guys (jennings/benson) — hes not frankie francisco, but with a lack of better chances/choices hes one of the better guys we have
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
-
Scout to KG: On Sandoval: "Man, that fat [expletive]-er can hit."
by knockoutking on May 23, 2009 10:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Life is versus expectations, and the major thing CJ has done – through his actions and words – was build high expectations within the fan base. When he doesn’t live up to those expectations, he receives a disproportionate response.
by ericeric on May 23, 2009 10:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I like CJ, but a lefty with a fastball that can get up to 96 with secondary stuff like that should be more effective, right?
by BuckyB on May 23, 2009 10:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
CJ should be considered a lights out bullpen guy
compared to Eddie and Benson. O’Day, Madrigal and Frankie are the only three that have shown some sign of brilliance. CJ is right in the middle; not horrible, but not great.
"BIg whoop, wanna fight about it?"
by lost in space on May 23, 2009 10:48 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
early days post-surgery
It took Frankie a while to become nails after surgery. Who knows … CJ might be an ERA wizard farther down the road from the knife some.
Sigh ... we are sooo gonna suck again next season.
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by shroomer on May 23, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
surgery
I wonder if the surgery has cost him some mph on his FB. HIs K rate is down to 5.8/9 compared to at least 8/9 the three previous years. From Dr. Meiter’s chat yesterday at Newbergs site
…a scope and spur removal may take 6 months or so but perhaps less time or even longer much depending on the degree of overall injury inside the elbow and how much is done…..
I am not sure what to think about CJ. Sometimes I think his dominant days are behind him and he is what he is now. Other times I think he is just pitching to contact like the team desires. And somtime I think he is still recovering from his surgery and will return to his dominant ways later this season.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
by RangerMad on May 23, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
fangraph's velocity chart
I found CJ’s velocity chart over at Fangraph’s. I appears to be down slightly from previous years and a bit more erratic.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
by RangerMad on May 23, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm always curious
Why you give so much of a shit about what people think of Player X.
by brettgardner on May 23, 2009 10:54 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Because its a blog
And Player X is usually a current hot topic of conversation
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on May 23, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I get that
But “setting people straight” just seems like a never-ending endeavor.
by brettgardner on May 23, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If I see or hear something I disagree with...
…then sometimes, I write about it, whether it is Galloway in the S-T or people on LSB.
I don’t see what the big deal is.
by Adam J. Morris on May 23, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You like wasting everyone's time
by having them read your posts, don’t you?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw
by Gdawg on May 23, 2009 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
See, I didn't have to read his posts
Whoever he is. Thanks ab03.
LoneStarBall....You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.
by DaheelzCM on May 23, 2009 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's more substantiating a view
Than setting people straight. I don’t think Adam wants to dictate opinion at all. But when the fact stream gets interrupted with offshoots, even offshoots that seem to have merit, it isn’t a bad thing to make a cautionary post. I’d even suggest that maintaining the credibility content wise of a popular blog is inherent in any ‘author pride’ aspect of blogging. Just my .02 and change.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -
"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce
by Ed Coffin on May 23, 2009 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
CJ Sucks!
Oh wait wrong thread.
Ron Washington...giving hope everywhere to the kids who eat lead paint chips of being a big league manager when they grow up since 2007.
by rangers85 on May 23, 2009 11:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Being Burned
After watching CJ for several years I cringe when he comes into a close game. It seems like he never can go 1-2-3 but always gives up hits and walks. I would like to see him remain on the roster but only as a situational lefty. He has proven he does not have the make-up to be a closer or even a set-up guy at this point. However a lefty who throws mid 90’s will always have a home on the roster, hell-look at everyone third day Eddie.
by De Peche Ranger on May 23, 2009 11:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the CJ sentiment comes down to
CJ whining about not being a closer.
CJ not being a “shut down” closer.
CJ allowing lots of hits to righties.
I think he is a decent enough reliever, and would be a great Loogy, but I am thrilled we have a better closer, and other options for the 8th inning.
"I'd praised catcher Max Ramirez two weeks ago, but after his continued struggles I'm increasingly convinced he's not going to pan out." - crops.mlblogs.com
by DJCahill on May 23, 2009 11:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Another offputting CJ move
was during ST when he decided he was going to change his delivery to a windup so that he could become a starter and he announced such change on his facebook, without mentioning it to the coaching staff.
"He's old school in that he give up his groin like that. It hurt me when he do that" -- Worsh on Chris Davis' stretch at first base to end the game vs. the Angels on 5/16
by tricer on May 23, 2009 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that is just the life of the reliever.
Much like the kicker in football, when it comes down to it you really need to have a good one. But once he misses one kick, people want him to pack his bags.
I can see people, myself included, turning on Frankie if he blows a couple of saves, its an emotional position.
Much like the kicker “blows the win” for the “real” team who did all the work, people get charged up when a reliever blows a win for a starter who pitched a great game.
by SaltyGoesYard on May 23, 2009 11:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think a few people here
would turn on Francisco if he had a rough stretch, say a month or so. But for CJ I think it’s that people had expectations that were a bit too high last year and the disappointment turned into resentment and confirmation bias.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on May 23, 2009 12:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He looked good last night
Most of the strikes were quality strikes. But you have to admit that his command is erratic at times; do you think this is a mental or physical thing?
by hiafex on May 23, 2009 12:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Evan on MY
InsideCornerMichael Young on crutches, had X-rays on right foot, no report on whether its broken. Still hopes to play today. Developing
.
Go Rangers...don't suck...
by Kinslerhomer on May 23, 2009 12:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
there is guarding the line
then like you said, there is standing on the line. You just move closer to the line, you don’t need to straddle it. The Lee hit should have been an out either way.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by NothinG on May 23, 2009 12:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
and do we feel better about our offense
we still didn’t manufacture runs. the runs came off of homeruns. that is going to be a problem.
If a woman has to choose between catching a fly ball and saving an infant's life, she will choose to save the infant's life without even considering if there are men on base. ~Dave Barry
by NothinG on May 23, 2009 12:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
OUTRAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!1111111!1111!!!!
Give me Todd Van Poppel and Jay Powell any day of the week!!!!!! GRRRRRRRRRR!
Ron Washington...giving hope everywhere to the kids who eat lead paint chips of being a big league manager when they grow up since 2007.
by rangers85 on May 23, 2009 12:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGmxrDBDnTI
I guess the stats show he’s been solid this year, but I haven’t been calm and relaxed with him coming in a game for well over a year now. He’s just too wild and erratic and I guess we’re all a little spoiled when watching FF dominate the way we hoped CJ would.
by behindthebag on May 23, 2009 12:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
CJ
is a beast. it frustrates me as well because he seems inconsistent but i don’t understand all the CJ hate.
by j d on May 23, 2009 1:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The root of the problem is
People just seem so damned quick to kneejerk and turn on someone, I suppose it might be part of the fair weather attitude the metroplex has.
Also a contributing factor is this blog has gotten much more exposure the last few years and the amount of posters has exploded, so we are just seeing many more varying posters and opinions now than we did 2-3yrs ago
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
by rentz on May 23, 2009 1:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
but he sucked most of last season though
and the last homestand (where ppl get their biggest impressions live) he was bouncing them 6 feet in front of the plate.
i dunno if makes them kneejerk reactions, there is a back story for the guy of struggling, and being very arrogant, so i think your seeing the reaction to that. i dunno if that makes it an overreaction. the guy seems like a Loogy with an attitude like rick “wildthing” vaughn in ML2, if that doesn’t get fans on your ass, nothing will
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
by Jayslick on May 23, 2009 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point was more broad that just CJ
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
by rentz on May 23, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
give examples though
CD being sent down? doesnt seem an unreasonable opinion given he doesnt have a full season above A ball and is struggling like it
BGL? he was our closer, sucked, 8th inning guy? couldnt cut it. Loogy? i guess…
Hank needing to be benched? sum1 threw out a stat saying he’s hitting 170 something when it isnt a homer.
More Andruw time? seems reasonable to discuss…
if we really are gonna contend, i dont think looking at those situations and thinking we gotta do something is an overreaction. hell you know for a fact JD and Nolan have sat for hours discussing the same bit.
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
by Jayslick on May 23, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
examples?
just look at a game day thread.
“he sucks, he stinks, clearly X player needs to be punished and his nose rubbed in that strike out”
it’s not been limited to davis or cj.
If a player isnt doing well its suddenly DFA his ass, send him down, bench him, he stinks, he’s a douche.
You seem to be missing the larger point here…. I’m not commenting on if I agree that davis might need some time to get straightened out or that cj’s exposure needs to be limited.
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
by rentz on May 23, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was also injured last season.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on May 23, 2009 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I really don't believe for a moment
That no one knew he was injured
-- Micah
Baseball Is My Boyfriend
I'm an Andrus-caliber catch. :-)
by baseballismyboyfriend on May 23, 2009 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think people knew he was hurting
But unless the player tells you more in depth it could be hard to tell he was injured
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on May 23, 2009 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone thinks people have been sipping the "Haterade" for one night...
I don’t know what the deal is with people who defend CJ Wilson, thinking that this displeasure is over one game in Detroit. I went to the first ever game CJ Wilson ever played in as a starter where he stayed in the game for about a whole 2/3ds innings before giving up 6 runs and being taken out of the ball game. So the starter gig didn’t work out too well for him, and they stick him out there as a closer. The blue gloved wonder runs out there with his “iron man” music in the 9th inning and blows I don’t know how many 4-run leads, some of which resulted in a loss when all was said and done. Fate was looking down on the Rangers last year if he came out there with something like a 1-run lead, more often than not, that didn’t end well. So now they have him out there as an “8th inning” guy, and he throws I don’t know how many wild pitches, and occasionally overthrows first base on a pick-off.
He obviously has talent, but talent alone is not enough. I’m looking forward to the day he gets traded, and turns into the pitching version of Brad Wilkerson.
by ranger_danger on May 23, 2009 7:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Cj's first start
you do realize he was coming off TJ surgery and was rushed way too soon right?
"I'm against picketing, but I don't know how to show it." - Mitch Hedberg
by rentz on May 23, 2009 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
CJ Wilson last 10 games 9 IP, ERA 0.0, WHIP 1.22
not bad? I would say pretty damn good. The few hits opponents get on him are weak shots as well. The Pence hit yesterday was an OUT – the throw clearly beat the runner. He had two hits against him on Friday that were soft dribblers that snuck thru because the defense were guarding the 1B and 3B lines.
by eclou on May 24, 2009 8:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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