Nolan Ryan, Augie Garrido, and pitch counts
Here are a couple of quotes from this past week or so, in regards to Nolan Ryan and his program for improving the Rangers pitching:
A month ago, Nolan Ryan, president of the Texas Rangers, sent a directive to the entire organization, banning use of pitch counts as a way to regulate how deep starting pitchers went in games.* * *
By the way, the season was 1974, when Ryan was 22-16 for the Angels, leading the American League with 202 walks and 367 strikeouts. He averaged 135 pitches for 41 starts. That insane workload ravaged his arm so severely his career only lasted 19 more seasons. Ryan was still throwing in the 90s when he finally retired at age 46.
This organization wants pitchers who expect to go deep into games, routinely throw more than 100 pitches and finish what they start.Really, it's that simple.
The days of babying starters are over. So are the days of six innings constituting an honest day's work. And they aren't ever coming back as long as Ryan remains in charge of the club.
* * *
They'll get stronger physically. Their muscles will adapt to the increased workloads. And if they can't, then maybe they can't – and shouldn't – start for these Rangers.
Here's a couple of quotes from the past day or two, in regards to Augie Garrido leaving Longhorn pitcher Austin Wood in a game this weekend for 169 pitches:
Keith Law on ESPN's Draft Blog:
By now you've probably read about the 25-inning game yesterday between the University of Texas and Boston College, which featured incredible performances by Texas reliever Austin Wood (13 innings, 169 pitches) and BC reliever Mike Belfiore (9.2 innings, 129 pitches) to keep the game scoreless into the small hours. However, we must not overlook the unconscionable decisions by Texas coach Augie Garrido and BC coach Mikio Aoki to expose two talented young pitchers to potential arm injuries, demonstrating not only poor judgment but willful ignorance of the connection between overuse and arm injuries.
* * *
Sending any college pitcher, especially one with a pro future, out there to throw three or four times as many pitches as his arm is accustomed to throwing, and doing so when his arm is already fatigued from an outing the day before, is a firing offense. Both coaches should be terminated immediately before they get another chance to blow out anyone else's arm.
Kevin Millwood, obviously tiring in the 93-degree heat won an eight-pitch battle against Jack Hannahan to end the inning with just the one run scoring. Millwood must be done with 116 pitches. Well, unless Augie Garrido has taken over the Rangers. He let a kid throw 169 pitches. As somone up here said "A coach can’t buy a kid a cheeseburger without creating some kind of violation, but he can abuse his arm all he wants." Me, if the coaches won’t act responsibily, I’d have the NCAA legislate pitch counts. I know Austin Wood probably didn’t want to come out of the game, but 169 pitches is just shameful.
So we should put Evan, Keith, Bill, and J-JT into a cage and let them fight it out until just one side is left standing, right?
Or better yet, let Nolan Ryan have a sit down with Keith and Evan to let them know the error of their ways, and understand that eliminating pitch counts is the way it should be, right?
This is what happens when the theoretical clashes with reality. It is all well and good for J-JT and Conlin to proclaim that pitch counts are evil and that Nolan Ryan has done a great and wise thing by banishing them from the scene in Rangerland, but even if all pitching decisions around here are governed by WWNRD, the reality is that there's not really any conflict between Nolan's edict and what Law and Grant are decrying.
The dirty little secret is that even though sound bites on MLB Network, ESPN, local broadcasts, radio talk shows, and newspaper columns across the land proclaim that Nolan Ryan has eliminated pitch counts, that isn't what is really going on. Neftali Feliz isn't going to throw a 169 pitch complete game for Oklahoma. Martin Perez and Jake Brigham are on the same sort of tandem-starter schedule in Hickory that supposedly babies pitchers. Managers and pitching coaches throughout the system know how many pitches their pitchers are throwing, and are, I'm reasonably certain, using that as a significant factor in determining how long a pitcher is going to stay in the game.
Because the idea that Ryan is "banning use of pitch counts" appears to be crap, for the same reason that people are up in arms about Austin Wood throwing 169 pitches...the number of pitches a pitcher throws matters. It matters in the Rangers organization, it matters in the A's organization, it matters at every level of ball.
What Nolan appears to have been pushing is more flexibility on the upper bounds...you still aren't seeing pitchers in the organization expected to go 140 or 150 pitches, but guys like Tommy Hunter, who have shown durability, are being allowed to cross the 120 pitch mark.
And while even Brandon McCarthy threw 124 pitches a couple of starts ago, he got an extra day of rest before starting again, and was pulled before 100 pitches on his next outing.
I don't guess it really matters, but it would be nice if people would stop the "Nolan Ryan is eliminating pitch counts" meme. It doesn't jibe with what's going on, and if Nolan were really doing that, you'd hear a lot more of an uproar among those around the Rangers like you are currently hearing about Austin Wood.
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Comments
tell me something i dont know
heh
my sig is better than yours
by hinduplaya on Jun 1, 2009 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
and you can milk them
you can milk anything with a nipple.
I'm Ron Burgundy?
by Ryin A on Jun 2, 2009 12:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Robert De Niro has nipples
Can you milk Robert De Niro?
The World Series Crisis - Ranger fans held hostage; Game 5911
Magic Number- 109
by red3biggs on Jun 2, 2009 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ARod has big ones
Can you milk the tits of Bitch Tits?
"He's old school in that he give up his groin like that. It hurt me when he do that" -- Worsh on Chris Davis' stretch at first base to end the game vs. the Angels on 5/16
by tricer on Jun 2, 2009 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Off days blow.
I'm just goofin' new boot goofin'
by iorange555 on Jun 1, 2009 3:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
they do this year anyway
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by NothinG on Jun 1, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd love to see
pitch counts in the organization this year to last year compared.
I doubt there are many differences.
"Guillermo Moscoso despite his stunning game yesterday, is not a legit prospect. He is simply too old, too skinny, too weak, and lacks the fastball to make it at the professional level. ." - crops.mlblogs.com
by DJCahill on Jun 1, 2009 3:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree that it's ignorant to claim that Nolan is eliminating all pitch counts, everywhere
Smart guys like Kevin Goldstein have made the point that the Rangers are just trying to manage the major league guys the right way: for too long, pitchers were overworked, and then the pendulum swung too far the other way and we started babying pitchers too much. Now, the Rangers are just trying to inject some common sense and find the middle ground: your starters are your best pitchers, generally, so use them as long as possible in a manner that is safe for the pitcher and good for the team’s chances of winning.
I generally like Keith Law, but his occasional hyperbolic rants against perceived evils and injustices annoy me. The Longhorns should fire Augie for keeping Wood out that long? Yeah, okay. I’m no fan of Augie as a person, but he’s one heck of a baseball coach. There are about 200 other Division I teams that would LOVE to see him fired for that offense.
Callis wasn’t quite as up in arms in his DMN chat. This seems to be a good take on the situation, considering all the relevant factors:
[Comment From kyle]
How will the high pitch counts for Austin Wood and the BC reliever in the marathon 25 inning game on Saturday impact their draft status, if at all?
Jim Callis: They won’t impact them draft-wise. If there was a repeated pattern of overwork, it would be a concern. Belfiore is a second- to fourth-rounder, Wood a seventh- to 12th-rounder. Those pitch counts, especially for relievers who worked the day before, aren’t what scouts want to see. But they were one-time only deals under exceptional circumstances, and both pitchers were strong throughout the outing and didn’t look hurt.
"wORLD sEIRES HERE WE COMER!!!!!!!!!"by bigsteve on May 29, 2009 10:21 PM PDT
"Elvis Andrus has just performed a miracle." -Eric Nadel
by WestTxAg06 on Jun 1, 2009 3:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Oops
Quote fail.
"wORLD sEIRES HERE WE COMER!!!!!!!!!"by bigsteve on May 29, 2009 10:21 PM PDT
"Elvis Andrus has just performed a miracle." -Eric Nadel
by WestTxAg06 on Jun 1, 2009 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Augie Garrido
That was a pretty bad move to leave him out that long, but that is what happens in college tournaments. He isn’t the first one to do this, and certainly won’t be the last.
Here is a list of all the “overworked” pitchers in college this year. Boyd lists guys throwing over 120 pitches in a game.
http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html
You’ll see that many coaches are far worse than Augie, who is only on the list a few times. But he should be brought to task for it.
A few years ago, Wayne Graham at Rice was ripped new ones from Houston to Omaha for overworking his guys routinely. Lots of great arms ruined at Rice. Graham has learned his lesson in recent years (to the likely detriment of the Owls, who have lost lots of games in the bullpen), but he’s only on Boyd’s list once, for a 121 pitch game by Berry. More guys need to learn what Wayne Graham has learned.
I have an irrational hatred of Chris Davis because his Ks are way too ugly and irrational liking of Matt Harrison because he's a lefty - deal with it.
by JBImaknee on Jun 1, 2009 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it may have been a bad move
but its not like the guy was giving up a hit an inning, you know
to win the game, it was the right move
Scout: He was a first-round pick right? Got a huge bonus?
KG: Oh yeah.
Scout: Well, he spent a lot of it on milkshakes.
-
Scout to KG: On Sandoval: "Man, that fat [expletive]-er can hit."
by knockoutking on Jun 1, 2009 4:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
People have really overblown the "pitch count" theme
It’s about quality innings and going deeper into games. If a guy throws a ton of pitches, it does directly associate with injuries etc. You can go back to, was it, the ‘75 A’s that Rollie Fingers was mentioning in the booth in one of the games this past weekend. They pitched those guys so much that the pitchers were done after a couple of years. Not everybody can pitch when they are 46 and pitch counts should be managed. We just need to have more quality innings from the starters, which allows them to go deeper into games or to push them that extra inning.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings.
by NothinG on Jun 1, 2009 3:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
NIce post AJM.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
by slc ranger on Jun 1, 2009 3:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think Nolan's new program is more of a mental thing than a physical one.
The pattern around here for several years has been to try and go six innings and get that “quality” start, then hand it over to the bullpen. It’s kind of like conditioning a sprinter to let up on the gas at 90 meters instead of running through the finish line. It has always looked to me like Nolan’s idea was to condition the pitchers to expect more from themselves and not be satisfied with going 5 or 6 innings. By saying “We’re not going to automatically pull you at 100 pitches if you have still have gas in the tank”, you’re expressing confidence in your guys that they can handle the bigger workload and sending the message that doing the bare minimum is no longer acceptable.
by Athos on Jun 1, 2009 3:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I was at Wood's performance
And that was just one game where he was throwing no-hit ball. He generally averages about 20 pitches a game in relief. I’m not really sure why it’s a big deal. He was single-handedly keeping the team in the game, in the post-season.
by ScratchHorn on Jun 1, 2009 4:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s not a big deal to go from around 20 pitches per game to 169?
by Brett Perryman on Jun 1, 2009 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But .. it's the playoffs!!
¡Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!
I came here to split hairs. And you?
by Chase Irwin on Jun 1, 2009 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It quickly became apparent that
Nolan’s program is about the removal of an old limit, not the mandate of a new norm. The amount of effort by some in sports journalism to twist it into a herald for the glorious return to the good ole days (when baseball players were man enough to forgo those pussy batting helmet!) is astounding.
by Telegraph on Jun 1, 2009 4:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That's the way I see it
It’s not a mandate of X pitches but more flexibility regarding how deep pitchers go. Some pitcher really do have 100 pitch limits like Pedro Martinez. Pedro would go to hell after 100. Others can go longer.
That said, it does seem like guys are going longer. Is that a result of the lack of a “mandate” or just better conditioning? Millwood’s thrown 20 CGs compared to 3 in the previous two seasons. McCarthy has his first CG shutout.
I wonder how many innings JJT pitched given his knowledge that pitchers will just get used to the increased workloads? He sounds like an authority on the issue.
Remember Red, hope is a good thing. Maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.
by WyoRanger on Jun 1, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nolan
Isn’t what Nolan is really saying is that he wants his pitchers to work harder and get in better shape so that they can throw more pitches without hurting themselves?
Nolan was well known for being in great shape. I think it’s pretty well accepted that the way you get hurt is throwing while tired, particularly if your mechanics get all out of whack because you are tired. So, if you work harder and get in better shape, it logically follows that you can throw more pitches before you get tired and greatly increased your chances of hurting yourself.
I think what’s he’s saying is don’t be happy just throwing 6 innings or 100 pitches, but work harder to increase how much you can safely pitch, which will vary by pitcher. He isn’t saying just blindly throw until your arm falls off.
by Darrell McKown on Jun 1, 2009 4:36 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Exactly what I was trying to say.
I wish I was as eloquent as Burnt.
by Athos on Jun 1, 2009 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post
"wORLD sEIRES HERE WE COMER!!!!!!!!!"by bigsteve on May 29, 2009 10:21 PM PDT
"Elvis Andrus has just performed a miracle." -Eric Nadel
by WestTxAg06 on Jun 1, 2009 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's probably what he is saying
That is not, however, what people are saying he is saying.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 1, 2009 5:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
PR Coup
Isn’t this whole pitch count thing turning out to be a PR coup for the Rangers? Every year, journalists harp on the Rangers for their lack of quality pitching. To address this need, the Rangers brought in exactly nobody of note to round out the rotation and bullpen. The fact of the matter is that Daniels has already addressed pitching through previous drafts and trades. As such, the Rangers needed to convince their fans that the pitching will indeed be improved. Ryan steps in and says that the team is going to buck recent baseball trends and push their starters to throw more pitches. With arm injuries so prevalent, I don’t see how Daniels or anybody else in the front office could suggest such a thing without endless media ridicule. However, I don’t think any journalist out there has the stones to call out Ryan for advocating such a plan, even if the Rangers were struggling.
The fact is, the Rangers are a better team, and thus get more attention in the media. To me, it does not matter if they attribute the success to Ryan or the improved defense. Hicks has taken a real beating around here from time to time, but it seems as though he is committed to a longterm strategy on building from within around solid pitching. Just because the media is in love with Ryan and his supposed distaste for pitch counts, I don’t see HIcks firing Daniels in favor of Ryan.
by Excel Hearts Choi on Jun 1, 2009 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
agree
i read all these articles about unlimited pitch counts and turning wussy modern pitchers into “real men” and then watch the games and that isnt what is taking place in games. Now, originally to begin this season i wasnt sure what nolans impact was. As of now though ive seen pitchers who seem to be on a training regimen closer to football offseason programs and less jelly donuts and cold beer regimens, ive seen pitchers working more efficiently which is getting them deeper into games, and ive seen defense we never had in my lifetime getting out pitchers deeper into games. I dont really give nolan credit for most of that, ill give him credit for the training regimen and for helping bring maddox in, but when you read stories like the JJT one, it makes you wonder if he is watching the same games you have been. to me, the biggest difference this year is strong offseason training regimens, elvis andus, and mike maddox and pitch counts have not really been any different.
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
by Jayslick on Jun 1, 2009 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Conlin
ironic praise for Ryan considering he didn’t have Ryan on his HOF ballot.
www.mavsmoneyball.com
by Wes Cox on Jun 1, 2009 4:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My 2 issues
with Garrido are this…
1. the guy threw 30 pitches the day before. Arms don’t break down from overwork. They break down from overwork when they are still trying to repair themselves. Wood’s arm was in recuperation mode already when he went out there and threw 169 pitches.
2. If it was a starter that got stretched out like that, I don’t think it would have been as big of a deal. This guy is the closer though. Maybe 3 innings a game at the most. Imagine the outrage on here today if Frank Francisco was sent out yesterday and threw 13 innings and 169 pitches. Guys on here don’t want him throwing 2 innings, much less 13.
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
"you're fuckin out" (Kenny Powers)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Jun 1, 2009 6:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wood used to be a starter for Texas
So while he may not have been used to 170 pitch outings he also wasn’t someone who had never thrown even half that much.
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
by bigsteve on Jun 1, 2009 7:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not only that
but closers in college almost always pitch more than one inning. It’s not like the pros where the closer comes in for the ninth.
by Texas Wahoo on Jun 2, 2009 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wood
has made 0 starts this year in 35 appearances. If you take out the 13.2 inning appearance, he has made 34 appearances and pitched 61.2 innings. That averages out to less than 2 innings an appearance. I don’t care if he used to be a starter, that is stretching a kid out waaaaaaaay too far, especially the day after he had already pitched. He might have started in the past, but that doesn’t translate into being able all the sudden throw 13 innings. Guardado used to be a starter. Would you feel comfortable with him going 13 innings and 170 pitches tonight?
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
"you're fuckin out" (Kenny Powers)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Jun 2, 2009 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Merging Nolans concepts with College Baseball is silly though
College Coaches dont give a shit about their pitchers long-term health. They never have and its the biggest factor in why i dont wanna touch college pitchers with a 10 foot pole in the draft, at least early. I just dont have good faith that these coaches look out for the best interest of the player.
if i could draft 12 year olds and steal them away so high school coaches couldnt ruin them, i would. my faith in amatuer baseball doesnt exist and honestly i trust my rangers with a kid, whether he is 12 or 20, a lot more than East Podunk High School or Southwest Whogivesashit University. Its the one thing ive learned from the development of footy youth across the world, get the best, get them as young as possible and get them the hell out of amateur setting and into your pro development program immediately. it applies with baseball too.
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
by Jayslick on Jun 1, 2009 6:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't disagree, but you can't totally blame college coaches when their job is on the line
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t condone wanton and reckless abuse of college pitchers just because. However, when a college coach has the choice of keeping his season alive by working a guy just a little more, or keeping him fresh for the pros and risking his own job being in trouble, what is the coach supposed to do?
Sometimes it can be a no-win situation for a college coach.
"wORLD sEIRES HERE WE COMER!!!!!!!!!"by bigsteve on May 29, 2009 10:21 PM PDT
"Elvis Andrus has just performed a miracle." -Eric Nadel
by WestTxAg06 on Jun 1, 2009 7:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Jay
That’s a good point you raise about soccer- look at a club like FC Barcelona, and how many of their star players came up through their academy. A good number of them were signed as young teenagers. I think Lionel Messi was 12.
Messi also had a growth deficiency, which likely wouldn’t have been treated nearly as well had he remained in Argentina until he was 17 or 18.
Or look at our man Steven Gerrard- he joined the Liverpool academy at age 9, and was starting for the club by age 19.
"I dont care to debate with a troll." - Sharky
by RCCook on Jun 1, 2009 7:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i think other sports are learning quite a bit from footy on the dev methodology
Aguerro was the 1st 15 year old to play in Argentina 1st Div since Diego
Torres was in the Atletico reserves at 15, Rooney was starting at 16 on a premier league club, but my point isnt that they were playing b/c baseball doesnt transcend youth like footy does, but rather that footy scouts can identify that youth by 12 or 14 and they arent ever in an amateur environment for development after that age.
pudge is a good example of this in baseball, he was with the rangers at 15, marty p was 16 and now in 18 and will hit high A this season. the ability to discover and develop the youth transcends the sports even if the age of their contribution and the dev schedule dont match up.
you have to remember, even the biggest baseball college or the top high school teams in America is running on a smaller scale and smaller budget for developing talent than what even the smallest pro dev program has at their disposal. add in that these high schools and colleges when developing these youths are doing so with less focus towards their future profession, and it all comes down to the fact that i dont think its remotely in the best interest of these young players or for pro baseball in america for amateur ball involved in developing the most talented youths in the world. once the cream of the crop is discovered, pro baseball has an obligation to the game to take these players as young as they can and put them in an environment that will give them the best chance to earn a living in the sport. if it doesnt work out, they will always have a scholarship for college to fall back on, but the longer these kids are in amateur ball the more they are dealing with non professional coaches infuencing their fundementals.
The question ends up being your a dad or a player or the rangers, who do you want developing your youth for the future of the sport? scott servais or darin thomas?
mormons stole me and held me against my will with Oklahoma beer and 12+ hour work days.
by Jayslick on Jun 1, 2009 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not just college
but H.S. coaches as well. Don’t forget McGilvray letting Kerry Wood go 200 plus pitches at Grand Prairie about a week before the draft. I watched a playoff game last year where Arlington Heights went extra innings with Walker Kelley on the mound. The kid had already had shoulder problems and dad had to tell the coach to take him out after 8 innings and 140 pitches. Coach would have let him pitch all night. When they lost, coach blamed dad and Walker for being whiny babies.
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
"you're fuckin out" (Kenny Powers)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Jun 2, 2009 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
check that
I think elbow problems actually, but either way, arm problems…
"calmer than you are dude" Walter (Big Lebowski)
"you're fuckin out" (Kenny Powers)
by Arlington Stadium Legend on Jun 2, 2009 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's dumb shit.
Coaches are retarded.
¡Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!
I came here to split hairs. And you?
by Chase Irwin on Jun 2, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The Rangers are treating each pitcher as an individual
and letting them pitch as much as they think is best for that individual on that given day in the context of that point in the season. They’ve been pretty smart overall this year on that aspect of development and performance, at all levels.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
by t ball on Jun 1, 2009 8:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nolan Has Banned Pacifiers! Now Get Off My Lawn!
This is another meme that had life breathed into it and continues to have a heartbeat because of lazy sports journalists who can’t or won’t be bothered to do anything other than chomp on their cigars while hunting-and-pecking on their typewriters.
OK, so who knows about that last part, but can’t I be a little lazy when writing about lazy sports journalism? None of the DMN’s top “talent” on the Sports beat knows jack about baseball and even less about the Rangers. They make Chris Davis’ plate discipline look like a batting champ’s with the way they hack at any lazy floater of a story.
None of that is new to anyone who has been around here for more than a few weeks. I don’t know if JJT even knows that there are baseball playoffs in college.
by Mister Naxal on Jun 2, 2009 9:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Adam, I have to recommend and buzz up on this one.
Because I would pay good money to witness this happen live:
So we should put Evan, Keith, Bill, and J-JT into a cage and let them fight it out until just one side is left standing, right?
¡Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado!
I came here to split hairs. And you?
by Chase Irwin on Jun 2, 2009 12:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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