New Rangers Poll -- Who wins the A.L. West?
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 18, 2009 11:39 AM CDT
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PrintWho will win the A.L. West this year? Cast your vote...
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If you vote Rangers, it's a jinx. So this poll is a jinx, you know that, right Adam?
Get on base or die, Salty.
"If you can't watch Holland and see that he's going to be awesome, you probably shouldn’t be watching baseball."
-Section 339
As did I.
Get on base or die, Salty.
"If you can't watch Holland and see that he's going to be awesome, you probably shouldn’t be watching baseball."
-Section 339
For all the slumping
and occasional sloppy games, I’m still not scared of the rest of the division.
This team isn’t going to hit as poorly as it hit in June all year.
"Go post a dinosaur in a gameday thread."-Finnerty.Fan
We, as a collective fan...
didn’t come this far for second place.
by ghostofErikThompson on Jun 18, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm 60/40
But I think Anaheim wins it.
Frankly, this team has more offensive holes than LAA does. They strike out far too much. K’s are often overstated, because you can K a lot with a good OBP, but in the case of the Rangers they aren’t coming with walks (28th!!!!! in baseball). They’ll probably be able to slug more runs in than LAA can push across the plate, but not by the margin necessary to win the division.
The Angels pitching is just far more reliable and while the Rangers’ defense has been solid, that is not enough.
Go Rice Owls!
+1
I also think that this team is very young and is all ready scoreboard watching. By the time September rolls around, I am afraid that they will be spent mentally if not physically.
But I also think that this is a very good exercise and necessary step for setting up playoff runs in 2010 and beyond.
Godwin's Law Version 2.0 (Rangers Edition)
"As a Ranger discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Danks, Volquez, or Young approaches one."
by LBBRangerFan on Jun 18, 2009 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't see how they are scoreboard watching...
usually, we finish our game, or are nearing completion, before the Angels even take the field. And, in the case of the Angels starting their game first, like last night, the Rangers still won without a real sense that they were pressing.
by ghostofErikThompson on Jun 18, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I half agree
I think this team has the mental fortitude to not be spent mentally. There are some good vet leaders on this team plus the young guys seem mature
I agree that nothing but good can come from being in this position at this time in the year and hopefully a similar position in September.
by Michael Cave on Jun 18, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Pitching/Defense
The far more reliable Angels pitching has Ervin Santana with yet another injury, Escobar hurt again, and a struggling Lackey. Their bullpen is no where near the strength it once was. Their defense is 23rd in the league in defensive efficiency which means that Weaver’s more likely to get closer to that 3.31 FIP than to stay at that 2.08 ERA (still good, but obviously not nearly as amazing).
I agree that the Angels offense is actually looking better than the Rangers now in being able to consistently score at least a few runs a game (barring some changes from the Rangers approach), but that just isn’t enough IMO to overcome their other major weaknesses.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
all those problems and only two games to make up
LAA is getting better and TEX has peaked
by sam in so cal on Jun 18, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
So what's more likely
-The Angels fix all their pitching problems (injuries and ineffectiveness) while overcoming their crappy defense and seeing Torii Hunter hit out of his mind
Or
-Texas can get their historically great offense to at least play up to their career averages
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
do they need to fix ALL their pitching problems?
or just half of them to already be ahead of TEX in the standings?
to answer your question, i think that attainable improvement in LAA pitching nets more wins than TEX’s attainable improvement in hitting – not to mention that TEX pitching could easily get worse.
that said, the performance to date for TEX has been better than i expected, so seeing them tail off when i didn’t expect them to be this good this year isn’t a problem for me.
incorporating thoughts form elsewhere on this thread, i’m not someone who thinks that there should be a lot of pressure on JD to make this team a winner this year – prematurely.
by sam in so cal on Jun 18, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Sam
I have a hard time believing you are a Ranger fan. You never have anything nice to say. You, Clueless and Josey have to be the darkest fans I have ever meet and to be honest Josey has said some positive things lately.
2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
by boomer1 on Jun 18, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
i'm being realistic.
i certainly don’t want the Rangers to fail. quite the opposite. i want the team to win – a lot, but i have become cautious (jaded) after years of nothing.
if the spectrum is people that are overly optimistic and never entertain the thoughts that something could go wrong on one end and people that want the team to fail on the other end, i am just to the right of center. most here, i would argue, are much more pollyanna-ish than me.
fwiw – ABC productions is shooting an episode of a new TV series with me at the ballpark. i chose this setting because i am a huge fan and because the Rangers are a big part of my life. more on that later… but suffice it to say that i am a fan. i’m going tonight for the 10th (+/-) time this year.
by sam in so cal on Jun 18, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions
more
and it’s not even that i am so negative. i merely point out a different side. the positive side is well-represented (328 – 148 in this poll). my presence here addresses the potential shortcomings and gives all the positive people something to discuss.
i keep this from turning into a wet toast party. LOL
i share a lot of the very positive feelings here, but i don’t see the need in adding to the post count as much as when i see potential problems.
maybe it’s b/c i want this (success for the franchise) so bad that i weigh in on things i see as potentially problematic.
i think that discussions are better when we entertain the possibility that things can go wrong (and usually have gone wrong).
by sam in so cal on Jun 18, 2009 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Good read...
So, what you’re saying is that the discussion is better when it’s balanced.. I’d agree, but I’d add that it’s also better when individual opinions also show that balance. That’s been my #1 beef with JW over the years – his posts are so overwhelmingly negative that it starts to become a blur. The individual negative points get lost in the flood, and tend to become a bit or at least perceived as one.
There’s no one on here (that comes to mind at lest) that is 100% positive regardless of all the PollyAnna shots that some take, so I guess the 100% negative (or doggedly pragmatic, to give you the benefit of the doubt) posters tend to seem out-of-whack.
Just my $.02
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
obviously everyone missed this:
http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/6/13/908167/saturday-a-m-rangers-things#16936951
i can be positive, too.
by sam in so cal on Jun 18, 2009 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Without reading that thread...
I can assure you, based solely on the “Saturday morning” thing, that I missed it. Ok, I’ll let you keep the “doggedly pragmatic” label then. :-)
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
bking -
“That’s been my #1 beef with JW over the years – his posts are so overwhelmingly negative that it starts to become a blur.”
I’m bullish on CDavis’ future just not his present. Same with Salty and you hear almost nothing but good things from me regarding Teagarden. I’ve been saying since last year that Ian Kinsler is on the brink of not just stardom but superstardom. Michael Young is my second favorite Ranger of all-time. I am one of the few Blalock fans in here. After years of justified skepticism, I’ve come around on Nelson Cruz. Josh Hamilton? I think he’s a blend of Willie McCovey & Willie Davis. Brandon Boggs needs to play more. I am one of the very few CJ fans in this place.
This thing did a 180 the moment Hicks hired Ryan (my all-time favorite) and with that sack of shat now being forced to sell the team, I am more optimistic than I’ve been in a long time.
To say the majority of my posts are overwhelmingly negative is flat-out wrong.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
I understand being frustrated
And I agree with being too much on the bright side. You just come of as more negative most of the time. No big deal we are all Rangers fans here.
2009 Texas Rangers: Why The Hell Not Us?--ghtd36 on May 13, 2009
Their pitching problems
are health related. Their starting pitching overall has been pretty successful this season thanks to some spot starts from their back-ups. That’s not likely to continue. Their regulars that have stayed healthy this season are also playing better than they should. Don’t feel like going into the stats part, but its definitely there. Add in their crappy defense and even if half of their current problems get fixed, they’ll have new ones pop up to hurt them. The Rangers pitching on the other hand is playing better than they should in large part due to the defense behind them. Their defense isn’t something that’s likely to get worse (and in fact could get better as Young learns his position).
And given both team’s needs right now, I don’t think any improvement in the Angels pitching nets them more wins than improvement in the Rangers offense.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
huh?
santana 1-3 last year 16-7
lackey 2-2 last year 12-5
by sam in so cal on Jun 19, 2009 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions
this is well stated
and i would be tempted to agree if I wasn’t certain the baseball gods would screw me if I did so.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
I didn't vote because I'm still not sure.
I don’t trust the manager (figuratively, he got away with driving home drunk again last night) and I don’t trust the GM who is under pressure to make a deal to help the team at the major league level win now instead of making a deal to help our 2010 Baseball America rankings.
The infrastructure of a winner is mostly in place and my 73-89 prediction looks to be failed (halelujah!!) but we need help in a couple of places and I’m not sure we can out-run the incompetence of our manager when the shat starts hitting the fan.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
Question:
This was brought up in another thread, are you aware of crops on the farm? Just wondering.
by Michael Cave on Jun 18, 2009 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Josey raises a decent point
not sure if intentionally. But the Rangers are not only trying to win this year but also going forward into the future. JD is under pressure to both win now and maintain the growth curve. This may make winning in 2009 less likely.
Other teams, particularly the Angels but also the M’s, are best structured to make a run for this year. Both look like this could be their last shot for a while, given their pending FAs. If LAA or Seattle is two games back on July 28th, I think they make an aggressive move to win in 2009. If the Rangers are still 2 games up on July 28th, I don’t think they’d trade away top pieces.
Go Rice Owls!
I think
it is all about getting the “right” deal. Like if Nick Johnson is available for Kiker and Duran or Vallejo perhaps (not saying he is) then that may be the right deal. However, if the Nationals insist on Smoak or Perez or Holland or Feliz then we should not make that deal because that wouldnt be a deal that would definitely put us over the top. Just my take.
by Michael Cave on Jun 18, 2009 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep.
Get on base or die, Salty.
"If you can't watch Holland and see that he's going to be awesome, you probably shouldn’t be watching baseball."
-Section 339
yeah
I agree completely. And I don’t think JD pulls the trigger on the wrong deal just for the sake of making a move.
I do think that LAA would pull the trigger on a “win now, pay later” type of move, however. Maybe Seattle as well.
Go Rice Owls!
I agree.
but (and I hate to nitpick) saying “Duran or Vallejo” is like saying “Joe Torres or Kiker”. One has a chance to legitimately help a major league team, and the other will have to make major strides just to be a role player.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
I know you have a thing about German Duran...
…but equating him to Joe Torres, and Vallejo to Kiker, isn’t accurate.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 18, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions
I do think Vallejo/Kiker are comparable
because they both have the tools to be valuable parts of a big league team, but also have flaws that will probably preclude them from being stars. Duran/Torres was possibly hyperbole, but I am not sure to what extent. I saw very little in Duran last year to believe that he has a future as a ML player, even as a role player. His does not do any one thing very well. Perhaps a better comp would be someone like Ballard, although I think Ballard has a better chance to be an effective loogy than Duran has to be a utility guy.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
Johnson
FA next year, made of glass and has declining defensive abilities at 1b.
I doubt the Nats are asking for all that much. I think that the Rangers would pull the trigger if they found a taker for Blalock (and his salary).
Is it just me....
or is anyone scared to death of trading ANYTHING useful to get an “OBP machine” from the Nats? Been there, done that…
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
Who can LAA get to make a push?
They don’t have much talent on the farm, all their young players on the team don’t have much value anymore, and their best trade chips are guys they’ll be looking to keep to help the ML team.
And I don’t see much of a reason to worry about Seattle. I don’t think they’ll be close to the division lead and they are much more likely to start selling pieces IMO.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I doubt that
Their farm system is pretty weak right now, and the Nats just signed Dunn to a big deal to be the Face of the Franchise right now. Morales has been pretty good, as well.
I don’t see that as a fit.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 18, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
?
Dunn’s on a 2 year deal. There is no true FOTF until Strasburg reaches the bigs. Dunn’s having a huge year and the Angels need a legit power bat. Something involving Walden and Wood would be reasonable.
Makes sense to me at least.
In 2 years, they will be set at the FOFT position for a long time
Between Strasburg, Zimmerman, and Harper
He's got a 3 year deal
And I don’t see Walden and Wood getting a deal done.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 18, 2009 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Oops
My bad — I knew it was $10 million per year, and I guess I confused it with the Bradley deal and Josey’s Blalock proposal.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 18, 2009 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions
What prospects do they to get Dunn?
And where do they play him? Their offense is coming from 1B and the 3 OF positions with Vlad having to DH from here on out to keep him healthy. Do they gain that much by losing Morales or Rivera from their everyday lineup to play Dunn there everyday?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
They would
have to start any conversation with Jordan Walden. Probably have to include O’Sullivan (the guy who started the other day) and then have to throw in someone like kendrick too.
by Michael Cave on Jun 18, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Is that even enough
Walden’s a good prospect, but still far away and not lighting the world up this year, O’Sullivan’s young and that’s about all he has going for him, and Kendrick is looking like a huge bust.
And still, where do you play him?
Also, if they were in on Dunn, we could easily top that offer without it hurting us much and get ourselves a big OBP machine to the lineup while screwing over the Angels…again.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
If that were enough
i dont think the angels would even do it.
by Michael Cave on Jun 18, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Thinking from an Angels POV, he replaces Morales at 1st this year, which is a sizeable upgrade offensively
Let Abreu go after the season and stick him in the OF, where he’ll be about as bad as Abreu is.
I think that the Rangers would be hesitant to pay that much this year and next year for a DH.
Offensive upgrade, defensive downgrade
On the season, Dunn has been worth .1 more wins than Morales. That has been as an OF where he has had little business playing, but he’s still a poor 1B. All things considered, I don’t see them getting that significant of an upgrade to their offense by losing Morales from the everyday lineup to make up for the defensive downgrade and help them take the division.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
You realize that this is the Angels right?
They’re playing Abreu in RF, and even did so when Vlad was hurt. If you’re a decent vet, they’ll fit you in somehow.
LAAA or Texas
Texas can win the division, but will have to make some tough and potentially unpopular decisions to win. If Texas does all of the following below, they will win the division
- Sit popular players for one day when they are slumping, or move them to different spots in the lineup to allow for maximum runs for each individual game
- If Davis and Holland (or another young player such as Teagarden or Salty) continue to slump, send them to the minors to work on his problems and replace them with either someone already on the farm or a short term rental. The lineup can not afford a continued weak link when the Rangers have alternatives to help win the division.
- Keep Mendoza off the team for the rest of the season, or if he must be on the roster due to a pitching shortage, only bring him in when the Rangers are ahead or behind by at least 10 runs. He has now fully shown that he is not yet majors material.
- Most importantly, not be afraid to make that impact deadline deal giving up a top prospect for whatever hole is most predominent in the lineup at midseason. I believe that with some of the past unpopular trades JD may not want to trade high end prospects to win the division. Be smart, get a fair trade, and deal with losing a top prospect to win the division.
Hasn't Jamey done a report on how rarely that "impact deadline deal" ...
actually works out?
You think Atlanta regrets that “impact deadline deal” they made to get Mark Teixeira?
There will be players available for much less than the Teixeira heist
Get an overpaid veteran who is having a good year and is nothing more than a rental. Overpay him for the rest of the season. If there is a big hole in the lineup, like at 1B now, near the trade deadline that the Rangers have not filled from within, make the deal.
by Mark from OC on Jun 18, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
as currently constructed
I think the Angels have a better chance. If Hamilton returns fully healthy and hits like he did last year (even second half’s version) and Holland can get over his rookie yips and pitch like he is capable of, then this team may tough it out.
What is this, Horseville? Because I'm surrounded by naysayers.
I'm intrigued with NJohnson
(gets on base v. leftys .421 lifetime obp!!!) but I wanna sign him long-term.
That means I’m very willing to deal them Crush plus whatever else it takes to get him here. Blalock isn’t going to be here but an on-base machine like NJohnson + Smoak will fix a lot of things we have wrong.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
Really?
You’d give up Chris Davis plus, say, Kiker, to get Nick Johnson, who is 31, a free agent after the season and can’t stay healthy?
You want to give him the 3 year $30 million deal you were offering to Blalock, as well?
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 18, 2009 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
At least I beat you by a minute so it doesn't look like I cribbed you.
Exactly right regarding Johnson.
I said "intrigued"
and as a DH, I imagine that he’d stay healthier. If he is healthy for the next three years, 3 years / $ 30 million would be a bargain.
A lot of this is table talk but we need to break up our organizational logjams at 1B & C to make the major league team better and that means making some difficult decisions.
We saw what the offense can be like with an obp machine in the middle of it last year. Smoak looks like the goods and to have a better skillset than Crush.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
by Josey Wales on Jun 18, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions
Nick Johnson
He’s never been healthy for three years. And breaking up an organizational logjam at 1B/DH by trading an old DH doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense to me.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 18, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Nick Johnson
Nick Johnson makes Milton Bradley look like Cal Ripken, Jr.
by Adam J. Morris on Jun 18, 2009 12:32 PM CDT up reply actions
3/$30 mill
for an oft-injured player who’s better off DH’ing? Did you just describe Milton Bradley sans de attitude.
-Angry fan of a First Place Team
There is so much here that is just wrong
1. Trade 23 year old Chris Davis for half a season of Nick Johnson to DH
2. Make Blalock everyday 1B
3. SIgn injury prone Nick Johnson to big extension
So we trade a valuable player at his lowest value (remember what you said about how dumb it would be to trade Salty this offseason?). We stick an injury prone player on the field everyday to make room for another injury prone player to DH. This somehow helps clears up the logjam at the catcher spot too. And we do all this for 2-3 months of a player we could sign in the offseason for about half that bargain price of yours (and keep Davis).
Why?
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
You nailed it
Josey, if Daniels Chris Davis plus a prospect and signs Johnson to an extension I will call for him to be fired.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Depends on what you think
Davis is long term and what you think the chances are to win this year.
A lot of folks think he’s Adam Dunn with better batting average and less walks, but with his K rates and Walks I think its more likely he is Pete Incaviglia offensively, and a good glove defensively. I just don’t see him being a huge offensive presence long term with his high K rate and mediocre BB rate.
"Go post a dinosaur in a gameday thread."-Finnerty.Fan
But I wouldn't trade anyone
that we think might be as good as we hope Davis is for the oft-injured Johnson. Can we trade for Adam Eaton again as well? I have about as much confidence that Johnson will stay healthy. I’m not totally against acquiring Johnson, he’s a very good bat. But the price needs to be very Ranger-friendly.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
"Blalock isn't going to be here next year and ..."
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
I voted Angels
Because I’m a pessimist. Of course, I’d be happy to be wrong about this.
I had a paper route when I was a kid. I was supposed to go to 2,000 houses. Or two dumpsters.
I voted Oakland
Because they don’t have a vote yet
curious
i would like to see this poll at halo honks’ site and compare the voting
i wonder if TEX would get anywhere near as many votes as LAA received here.
maybe
28% of Anaheim fans probably believe there is conspiracy from MLB and Bud Selig to let the Rangers win since they are a major market club.
Go Rice Owls!
I live around them
And I would have to say that answer is closer to 0.01 percent of Angels fans believe in that conspiracy. And he has his own message board.
by Mark from OC on Jun 18, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
Of course it wouldn't
The same goes for any such poll on any competitive teams respective website.
Anyway I voted for the angels as I think they are most likely, but the rangers at least have a shot. Hurry back Hammy.
the preceding post was a great success.
i think you missed my point
243 – 98 here
do you think it would be 243 – 98 there (the other way)?
i am guessing it would be 293 – 48 or even greater disparity
by sam in so cal on Jun 18, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't think polls on either blog can identify
Who will win the AL West. I think it will be decided on the playing field, and many of the permutations suggested here at LSB and over at HH simply won’t happen. Both teams look like they will have to ‘run what they brung’ except for callups and minor post-waiver deals. Just MHO.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang (1844-1912) also -
"Telephone, n. An invention of the devil which abrogates some of the advantages of making a disagreeable person keep his distance."
~Ambrose Bierce
by Ed Coffin on Jun 18, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions
I actually think
the Rangers are in decent shape. I just can’t see our offense hitting like they have in June for the rest of the year.
"Go post a dinosaur in a gameday thread."-Finnerty.Fan
we'll know better
when we play the Angels next week. Last night every AL West team won their game with the NL West,. Anaheim keeps winning with more injuries every day but they are winning in the NL West. It’ll be interesting to see how they do when they face stiffer competition. Their starters keep getting hurt again, and their bullpen ERA is a lot worse than ours. If our offense just hit to their normal levels the Rangers could take off.
"Few things go together as well as Country & Western music and crazy people" Bob Dylan
Its the Rangers to lose
Anaheim wont run away
Texas can win it, Texas can lose it… they have proved that this year the division is in their hands.
This is our year.
http://www.lonestarball.com/2009/1/29/739765/the-socket-joint-rotator-c
by FormerLSBUser on Jun 18, 2009 2:19 PM CDT reply actions
i cant vote yet,,,
but all this talk about trade moves to win the division got me wondering, and maybe this is just a question, but is it really smart to make a trade to get a “hole fixed” now just to win the division? is it worth trading someone who could be “good later” for someone who will “work now?” Unless you are talking about an A level player i say no. And i guess the big question to ask yourself is yeah with the AL east as strong as it is, we will have to win our division, but is that our goal here? i hope not. i know its a start, but i want to win a championship, start a dynasty. I guess its because i live in Dallas, i dunno…
by mikeyoungfuturehof on Jun 18, 2009 10:51 PM CDT reply actions
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