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Bruce Jenkins on the Rangers, Mike Krukow, and pitch counts


Bruce Jenkins has a column up that has a couple of items of note...

First, on the Rangers and Vicente Padilla:

The Texas Rangers have to get Vicente Padilla out of their rotation before he ruins a promising season. This is an exciting, first-place team, but there was Padilla (3-3, 5.57) in his usual head-hunting fury against the Yankees last night, hitting Mark Teixeira twice and generally stinking up the place. Padilla draws no respect from the opposition, he hurts his own team, and with Josh Hamilton (sports hernia) possibly out for a period of months, the team needs to pull together -- without hotheads . . .

So if Josh Hamilton were healthy, we could live with Padilla, but without Hamilton, the Rangers needs to not have "hotheads"?

And then there's the latest screed against pitch counts, with Jenkins boot-strapping on the comments of Mike Krukow:

Mike Krukow had some scathing, spot-on comments about pitch counts yesterday on the Gary Radnich show. Krukow plays it close to the vest during telecasts, honoring the game's trend toward caution and protecting young arms, but he revealed his true feelings with Radnich, ridiculing the notion of effective pitchers being replaced after 100-odd pitches and calling it "the stupidest thing I've ever seen."

As if on cue, there was a scene at Dodger Stadium last night that showed exactly what Krukow was talking about.

The Arizona Diamondbacks are really struggling right now. They'd like to think they're a lot better than their record shows, and there's no better place to make a statement than L.A., where the Dodgers are threatening to run away with the division. Dan Haren, last night's starter, is pitching as well as anyone in the game. Through seven innings, he was working on a masterful two-hitter and had a 5-1 lead.

If manager A.J. Hinch had been watching the game, instead of monitoring Haren's pitch count (110), he would have left him in the game for a dominant, influential victory. But no, 110 means curtains in today's game. Haren's gone. Off to the clubhouse before he even sniffed a crisis. The move might have been explainable if the Diamondbacks had a decent bullpen, but they've been a joke in that department most of the season. Sure enough, Tony Pena started the eighth, the revitalized Dodgers mounted a rally, and by the time Pena and rookie Daniel Schlereth finished making a mess of things, the Dodgers had a 6-5 victory.

As Krukow told Radnich, the way you become a winning pitcher is by finishing a game, working your way through a batting order three or four times. Anyone can win the first couple of matchups, but once you've figured out how to out-perform that guy every time, especially when it counts, you're a better pitcher and a better man. Krukow said he routinely had 150-pitch games during his career, clearing 190 a couple of times in college, and that if you decide to stick with a pitcher who has it all going, after 110-120 pitches, "It's not going to hurt him, OK?" said Krukow. "It's just not."

The worst of it is, Hinch probably won't even think twice about his decision. He and a thousand other managers will take the paranoia route every time. That's how you lose games, respect and any chance of making an impression in this division.

One of the commenters points out the flaw in Krukow's argument:

What's ironic is that Krukow was never good enough to pitch deep into games. Go right now Bruce and check his game logs: you'll see strings of games where he only pitched 4 to 6 innings with an occasional 8 or 9 inning outing - year after year, save for one - the season he won 20 games. And that season of exceptionally high workload marks his last year of being an effective starter. He was never the same again, and was soon done as a player.


Krukow wasn't a very good pitcher -- he was a low-K, middling walk guy.  If you apply tangotiger's pitch count estimator to his lines during his heyday, it doesn't appear he was ever going more than 110-120 pitches. 

And Hinch, of course, is a front office nerd who was hired by another front office nerd to replace a real baseball man, which means that Jenkins and his ilk aren't going to cut him any slack anyway.

In any case, it is worth noting that we have pitch counts for the final two years of Krukow's career, covering a span of 28 starts.  He threw more than 100 pitches four times in those 28 starts, with only one game involving a pitch count higher than 108 -- a June 25, 1988, outing in which he threw 123 pitches, his last start before a stint on the d.l. that sidelined him until mid-August.

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Comments

Display:

Yawn

The key isn’t being able to pitch 190 pitches in a game so you can get through the lineup 4 times. The key is being efficient with your pitches so you can get through the lineup 3 and maybe 4 times in less than 120 pitches.

Why people don’t stress that the flip side of pitch counts is pitch efficiency. Any pitcher pitching well can get through 7 or 8 innings in under 120 pitches. If you stress efficiency (which I think the Rangers have been doing, but not been as vocal about), you go deeper in games.

Go Rice Owls!

by JBImaknee on Jun 4, 2009 9:40 AM CDT reply actions  

The whole Pitch count and Nolan Ryan

meme beats me to a pulp.

Pitcher games over 115 Pitches
Millwood 4
McCarthy 2

That’s it. 6 games of over 115 pitches.

I think the biggest thing thats happening is the defensive improvement is allowing pitchers to pitch much deeper in games on the same number or less pitches. Its easy to burn your pitcher out in the 5 inning if you are making him get 4 or 5 outs an inning, because a ball 3 feet from your SS is a single.

If pitchers are pitching more than last year, its on the 5-10 pitch level.

"Guillermo Moscoso despite his stunning game yesterday, is not a legit prospect. He is simply too old, too skinny, too weak, and lacks the fastball to make it at the professional level. ." - crops.mlblogs.com

by DJCahill on Jun 4, 2009 9:53 AM CDT reply actions  

x
I think the biggest thing thats happening is the defensive improvement is allowing pitchers to pitch much deeper in games on the same number or less pitches. Its easy to burn your pitcher out in the 5 inning if you are making him get 4 or 5 outs an inning, because a ball 3 feet from your SS is a single.

Bingo. I’ve been looking at Millwood’s tRA numbers and it’s incredible how similar they are to the past few seasons. You look at his traditional numbers and it looks like he’s found the fountain of youth. Much like the 2008 Rays, the defense is the main reason we’ve turned a corner.

I had a paper route when I was a kid. I was supposed to go to 2,000 houses. Or two dumpsters.

by TheBZA on Jun 4, 2009 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

Everyone DOES seem to misunderstand the point of Nolan's "edict"

He didn’t just say we’re going to make you throw more pitches, he said we want you to work deeper into games. Quit nibbling, throw strikes, get outs, and … ouila!!! you’re now blowing past the 6th inning with more regularity.

I agree that the improved defense is laregly due the credit for the improved record, but the fact that the pen is not getting trotted out there for 3-4 innings nightly is just as important.

Keep you worst pitchers out of winnable games.

The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano

by bking on Jun 4, 2009 10:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

the improved defense

is not only responsible for the improved record, but this years defense can get you an extra innings worth of outs which lets you pitch an extra inning. Last year, there were a lot of balls hit the same as this years that became singles.

I think if we went back to last years defense, we’d see a lot of pitchers done in the 4th and 5th innings again.

I don’t think pitchers pitching deeper into games has a whole lot to do with the pitchers.

"Guillermo Moscoso despite his stunning game yesterday, is not a legit prospect. He is simply too old, too skinny, too weak, and lacks the fastball to make it at the professional level. ." - crops.mlblogs.com

by DJCahill on Jun 4, 2009 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

pitchers

The numbers show that the Ranger pitchers are throwing more pitches per start and going deeper into games. Not only is it due to the defense but also the pitchers’ fitness and desire to pitch that extra inning.

Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY

by RangerMad on Jun 4, 2009 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

Last year's defense

was the exact opposite of this year’s. While this year’s defense makes outs on what would usually be a hit, last year’s would allow a hit on what should usually be an out.

By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
-The Outlaw

by Gdawg on Jun 4, 2009 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wait...what?

So let me get this straight….a guy can only criticize something if he has done it himself…a lot? The whole point that a pitcher wasn’t very good and didn’t pitch over 100 pitches more than a few times so he doesn’t know what he’s talking about, is extremely weak.

Tell me why his point is wrong not that he wasn’t a good pitcher. To say the “flaw” in his argument is that he didn’t pitch well is, well, stupid. I’d like to hear why pitch count is so important…not how bad a guy was at pitching.

I don’t know a ton about why teams use pitch counts now so much more than they used to, but it seems to me that if somebody is being effective at 110 pitches, you leave them in.

by Big50 on Jun 4, 2009 10:05 AM CDT reply actions  

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