Kevin Goldstein is impressed by Neftali Feliz
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 13, 2009 11:33 AM CDT
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PrintKevin Goldstein was the first one on the Neftali Feliz bandwagon, so it shouldn't be any big surprise that he was impressed with Feliz's performance in yesterday's Futures Game:
The biggest addition to the Rangers down the stretch might be Neftali Feliz. While walking one and striking out two in his scoreless inning, Feliz was pumping gas at 97-98 mph while touching triple digits on numerous occasions. The Rangers need help in the bullpen, and the good news is that they don't need to make a trade to alter the long-term plan. Feliz will not only help, he might be closing by September.
My gut feeling is that Feliz is up here before the end of the month, and while I don't expect him to be closing by September, I do think that if the Rangers are in the race in September, he's going to be in the role of late-inning power arm, a guy to pair with C.J. Wilson in the 8th inning of games.
And I think that's a good thing for Feliz's development, long-term. As with Holland, let him come up and get his feet wet pitching out of the bullpen -- yes, even in big situations. I think that will only help him as a starter down the road.
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I think he’s got to be up this month too. Aside from Eddie Guardado (who someone in the organization must just really love) there isn’t a great candidate to replace, but Feliz adds an element that they need pretty badly, and if he reaches his short term potential he could be a serious upgrade.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 13, 2009 11:36 AM CDT reply actions
totally agree
and for everyone all scared about him and Holland relieving and that affecting their development. The FG announcers actually made a good pt about the Orioles in the late 60s/early 70s. They loved bringing guys up as relievers in their first sniff of the big lgs. Dennis Martinez, Jim Palmer and Mike Flanagan to name a few.
by Michael Cave on Jul 13, 2009 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions
In another thread
I brought up a list that started as relievers. Its not just guys from yesteryear. You have top pitchers like Johan Santana, Roy Oswalt, and Roy Halladay who started out as relievers.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
Oh i know
there are just 2 things that jumped out at me by what the announcers said. One, they were right and that rarely happens on ESPN and two, i forgot those guys relieved.
by Michael Cave on Jul 13, 2009 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions
Chad Billingsley is another
He sort of got the Holland treatment if I recall, which is why I’m not too worried about Holland’s development being stunted: before Billingsley went back and forth between middle relief and spot starts for a while before sticking in the rotation long term.
"andruw jones hits 3 HRS at LA of Anaheim last nite after hitting zero at LA of LA as Dodger in all of '08. thats nuts." SI_JonHeyman
body types maybe, but i think Holland's Delivery is cleaner
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
The biggest comp on pen to rotation would be Pedro.
He of the 80 fastball. Probably a significant difference between Pedro and Feliz is that Pedro had a good changeup when he came up, IIRC.
Nevertheless, Pedro came up as a reliever in 1993, and logged 62 appearances from the pen, before being traded to the Expos prior to 1994 where he was a starter henceforth.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
Yeah, its tough to say
its a hugely bad idea when there are so many monster pitchers who have done it.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
There has been a lot...
said by many LSBers about all of the good pitchers who broke in as relievers. However I’m pretty sure there’s just as impressive a list of guys that got their feet wet as starters when they broke into the bigs.
The big thing about doing it with Feliz and Holland this year is that if the Rangers are in contention then they could both fill a very important hole for the Rangers team. I do wonder though if the Rangers were 12 games out if those two would be in with the rotation after the ASB rather than in the ’pen.
Again, I don’t have a huge problem with it. As long as they are both still viewed as starters down the road (and they aren’t going back and forth between the ’pen and the rotation) and given every opportunity to do so starting next year. If not, (say Feliz comes out of the ’pen and dominates and they want to leave him there) then that is where I would have a big problem with them getting their feet wet in the ’pen.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Bullpen
I was going to suggest cutting Nippert, putting Holland back in the rotation, and adding Feliz to the bullpen (I don’t have a conceptual problem with Holland in the bullpen, but Nippert is horrible and Holland is our best option to replace him).
However, I then remembered that we are carrying a 13-man pitching staff right now, which doesn’t make sense to continue after the break, so we really need to cut Nippert just to get back to a more normal roster.
Therefore, I think the next option is to demote Mathis to promote Feliz, and then use Feliz in long relief for his first few outings to break him in, with Jennings available to pitch multiple innings in the middle of a game as well.
by Darrell McKown on Jul 13, 2009 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions
If Jennings continues to be mediocre when entering games in the middle of an inning, could he get the axe too?
He’s probably at least in the discussion.
"andruw jones hits 3 HRS at LA of Anaheim last nite after hitting zero at LA of LA as Dodger in all of '08. thats nuts." SI_JonHeyman
I, for one, would not be at all put out
if Jennings went away. The guy requires too careful handling. If you have to handle someone carefully, it might as well be Feliz.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Yeah...
There’s only so much room for guys who need careful handling in one bullpen, especially if you’re in a pennant race. Holland and Feliz are clearly more in the long term plan than Jennings is, so he could be the odd man out.
This is where I’m glad I’m not a GM. These relievers are human beings, not mere chess pieces. It’s got to be tough enough to make the decisions to cut them loose even when they’ve been bad. When they’re not terrible but not spectacular, it would be a miserable feeling to screw with their lives like that.
Of course, if the player has been around the game for any length of time at all he knows it’s just the nature of the business and nothing personal, but that still doesn’t make it any more fun.
"andruw jones hits 3 HRS at LA of Anaheim last nite after hitting zero at LA of LA as Dodger in all of '08. thats nuts." SI_JonHeyman
Jennings
I don’t think our pitching is good enough to dump guys with 3.26 ERAs, who are on pace to throw 88 relief innings on the seasons.
Careful handing or not, that’s pretty valuable.
by Darrell McKown on Jul 13, 2009 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions
and allow about 80% of inherited runners score.
The 2009 Texas Rangers offense: sigh...
by Kinslerhomer on Jul 13, 2009 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly. I don't give a shit about his ERA
he can’t pitch with runners on base.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
but his FIp
is only 3.90! :>O
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
are you saying that because of his arm?
because he’s thrown more innings than any other reliever, I think…
or is it because of the “you can’t put him in with runners inherited” – which I agree with?
"Hang-Dai, Wu...Hang-Fu$&ing-Dai"
by Walter Sobchak on Jul 13, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions
really?
i mean, you dont just get rid of solid MR arms
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
I'm not saying
kick him to the curb, I’d probably option Mathis, or try and trade Nippert for some low A ball kid, or DFA Guardado first. Just saying I wouldn’t miss Jennings much if they went that way. I’d rather take my chances with the amazing stuff than Jennings, who can’t seem to pitch with a runner on base.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
ok, thats better
there are several guys who’d id take off the roster before JJ. He’s been able to throw more and more recently and it definitely seems like his arms adjusting as i’ve seen him throw 91ish on his FB alot recently. He’s been solid and he’s gonna eat up alot of solid innings and relief for us this year. Id be down with bringing him back next year if he’ll accept the same role. He’s likely gonna get some definite chances elsewhere though.
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
I could see moving him
to sort of a long-middle role if Feliz comes up to pitch 7th and 8th innings stuff.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
Mathis is gonna regress, i guarantee thatt
i think he could be fine long reliever in the future, but id much rather have Feliz up here
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
EG has to be the one to go
It’s not like he has been used a a true LOOGY anyhow. Let Holland and Feliz be the “firemen” in the bullpen. Mathis can continue as the long reliever, CJ and FF keep thier roles. Grilli and Jennings use as needed.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
But then who would write for Insidecorner?
"Back on the scene, with a gangsta lean" RW
"you gonna lose your horse. seriously." FX2
Yes we can! November 04, 2008
Well.....
If your bullpen is Holland, Feliz, Mathis, Wilson, Francisco, Grilli and Jennings, where is O’Day, and who is the 5th starter?
by Darrell McKown on Jul 13, 2009 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Hmmm
O’Day will definitely be in the bullpen. Would they jerk Holland around again and move him back into the rotation? Millwood, Pads, Feldman, and 2 of Hunter, Holland and Harrison. I wouldn’t care if they shipped Jennings somewhere. I think he is not as good as his number indicate.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
I wouldn't count on Harrison (or McCarthy) at this point
That would put Holland in the rotation and leave you with only one LHP in the bullpen if you dump Guardado.
by Darrell McKown on Jul 13, 2009 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Too much pitching
and Rangers don’t usually go together. I agree with you on Harry. I don’t think he comes back by Aug 1. That is one reason why I didn’ tlike them moving Holland back to the pen. I also am not too concerned with not having a LOOGY in the bullpen. RW really doesn’ t do the LHB vs LOOGY matchup very much anyhow. I want the 12 best pitchers the Rangers have on the roster regardless of which arm they throw with.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
I can imagine few things
that would be more exciting than watching Feliz toss that easy cheese in the 8th inning against the Angels in September. He can be for the Rangers what Rodriguez was for the Angels in 2002.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
One thing that would be more exciting
Feliz tossing that easy cheese against the Red Sox in October.
Go Rice Owls!
or the Dodgers in Nov. :)
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
BBTiA had this awesome quote about Feliz:
“Feliz challenged a formidable quarter of U.S. Team prospects with arguably the best fastball in professional baseball, inducing four swinging strikes with a heater that never registered below 96.6 mph and peaked at an astonishing 100.8 mph — thrown, I might add, with good command. “Overpowering” isn’t a strong enough adjective."
Feliz
definitely has that rare “80” pitch. Couple that with his effortless mechanics and 6 inches of movement (according to gameday) and wow, just wow
by Michael Cave on Jul 13, 2009 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Another roster crunch.
I understand Neftali’s ability.
But Moscoso is already on the 40. And there’s also Duque, who will leave the org if he isn’t brought up.
Hernandez might give the same production without the options issue, and I doubt he shows the rookie jitters Neftali will. Moscoso is not only on the 40, but has already been a ML reliever this year.
I’m thinking it’s probably Neftali anyways, but these are both good alternatives.
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
by hightowersmith on Jul 13, 2009 11:47 AM CDT reply actions
Agree but
The organization seems to view Moscoso as a starter, ultimately. I could see them keeping him in Triple A the rest of the year to work on those abilities and then perhaps competing for a rotation spot next spring. Plus, per Lucas this morning, he’s nearing his career high in innings. If they want to manage his inning down the stretch, throwing him into the big league bullpen for a pennant race might not be the ideal plan.
El Duque is a trickier discussion. He’s done nothing to make the org think he can’t contribute down the stretch, and he’s got the veteran savvy/playoff experience that would be good to have in a reliever. I can’t imagine that the club is going to just let him walk, but they’re probably going to take it all the way to his free agency deadline so they can get the longest look possible at the candidates to be axed.
Seems to me that it’s a foregone conclusion that Happy sees the bigs and it’s very likely that Duque does as well. Thus, you’ve got to clear two spots on the 40 and two on the 25. Mathis could be optioned (he has options remaining, right?) off the 25, but that doesn’t clear a 40 spot. You could, however, pair that with a DFA of Bannister. Alternatively, you can axe Guardado, Jennings, or Nippert.
Tricky decision ahead, that’s for sure.
"andruw jones hits 3 HRS at LA of Anaheim last nite after hitting zero at LA of LA as Dodger in all of '08. thats nuts." SI_JonHeyman
Nippert should be an easy decision.
I think they may be giving him a few starts to see if they can trade him for a hot dog. Guardado is probably the next in line to axe. I don’t see then getting rid of Jennings. He is the 09 version of Jamey Wright.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
We once got rid of CHoP for Phil Nevin
Surely at least a chili dog can be had for Nippert.
"andruw jones hits 3 HRS at LA of Anaheim last nite after hitting zero at LA of LA as Dodger in all of '08. thats nuts." SI_JonHeyman
I'd rather have Nippert than Doug Mathis.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
Why?
Doug Mathis has had a total of 3 bad outings in his 17 appearances as a ML pitcher. Why would you choose Nippert over Mathis?
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
Well for me it's becasue
Mathis has options and Nips doesn’t. I don’t think they should just give away any arms right now.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 13, 2009 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions
But Nippert sucks
and shouldn’t be on a playoff contending team. And shouldn’t Mathis’ options work in his favor?
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
No, not if Mathis sucks and he shouldn't be on a playoff contending team?
"We're One Nation Under a Groove"
- Ayjayem
by inactive lsb user on Jul 13, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
And Mathis does suck
SSS or not.
I’m a white boy who doesn’t think a black man is good enough to manage my baseball team. - LSJ
"I really think that" - LSJ, on being asked by AirJordan
I think Nips could be good in a long relief role
They should give him a shot there before just cutting him to keep Doug Freakin Mathis.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 13, 2009 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions
Based on what?
His 7.36 ERA this season, or his 6.46 career ERA?
by Darrell McKown on Jul 13, 2009 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Only
if he could perform. Since he mostly fails, keep him in the minors as inury protection.
And shouldn’t Mathis’ options work in his favor?
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
"Since he mostly fails"
I am assuming you mean Mathis. Please tell me how many times he has failed in his ML career.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
Yeah, I'll take some more of that "mostly fails" please.
For some reason, it just SEEMS like he’s been worse than that. Maybe it’s just the aura that follows past Rangers “fill-in” starters that get hammered. Everyone jumps to be the first to say they have a big bag of suck, and it’s hard to change that perception.
Then, of course, see Tommy Hunter. Many in here were ready to trade him to the Ukranian league last year.
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
I guess its more starts
that make me want to cuss his name and throw things at the TV.
"I saw a soldier try to dig a foxhole with his bare hands. He didn't notice that he'd torn off all his fingernails. I got him out of there quickly; not for his sake, but for ours. Fear is poison in combat...destructive, contagious." - Band of Brothers
I'm not all that interested in losing either one.
But, if it came down to losing one or the other, I much prefer Nippert. He has better tools and his HR/9, K/9 and BB/9 are comparable if not better than Mathis’ at AAA this year and last.
At this point, its not like either one is going to give the Rangers the bullpen option that Feliz appears he will provide later this month. For this season, that is the most critical question. For next season and beyond, I say keep the guy with the better tools.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
If I have to choose...
…between having Feliz up and throwing out of the bullpen, or El Duque, that seems like a no-brainer to me.
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 13, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions
No doubt
Would anyone really be disappointed if El Duque didn’t pitch for the Rangers this year? And I’d like to see Moscoso stay in the rotation in OKC given how many innings he’s lost to injury in his career.
G G G E-flat_______ F F F D__________....
x
El Duque could retire right now and I couldn’t possibly care less.
I’m also fine with leaving Moscoso in OKC.
by brettgardner on Jul 13, 2009 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Well
If I have to choose between rushing Neftali and El Duque, it’s also a no-brainer.
It’s the FO’s call… I’m more just playing devil’s advocate because I trust they’ll size Feliz up about right.
"[Font} doesn't turn 19 until the end of May and his heater can already hit 99 on the gun. That's baseball porn." - Jason Parks
by hightowersmith on Jul 13, 2009 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions
El Duque...really?
That guy should not be getting in the way of any of our prospects. He was brought in as an emergency veteran to have in the minors and shouldn’t be used unless it is an emergency situation.
By 2028, Mark Teixeira will be in the HOF.
"I am one of the biggest Texas Ranger fans out there but I'm also one of the smartest. Deal with it."
-The Outlaw
I was beginning to think he may even be up before the ASB.
I don’t think anything Feliz has done has made the organization think he couldn’t step in and contribute.
The only thing I keep thinking is that I’m not sure it sets him up to try out as a ML starter by the beginning of the 2010 season. By all accounts, his secondary stuff is coming along. It seems to me that more repetitions the remainder of this season is a really good way to keep them coming along.
It’s a non-linear development process, of course. So, maybe it will help him develop more quickly by seeing where he needs to go and working directly with the ML staff. I tend to doubt that, though, as it appears to be more a matter of needing repetition, judging by analysts comments (ie his arm angle can drop some… implying more repetition needed to reprogram body movement and muscle memory).
It’s kind-of a tough choice by JD, IMO. They could trade for a bullpen guy, but they clearly would rather not. But, by not trading for a bullpen guy, they risk stunting the growth of Feliz as a starter. I think bringing up Feliz soon is best for the ML club this year and many more (by keeping prospects in the fold instead of in use as trade chips), but it is yet to be determined if it is the best path for developing Feliz as a TORP.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
I think saying that Feliz is
“touching triple digits” is the right way to phrase it. He almost pitches in triple digits out of the bullpen.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
*is not the right way to phrase it.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
So we're pretty much looking at Zumaya +, then?
"We're One Nation Under a Groove"
- Ayjayem
by inactive lsb user on Jul 13, 2009 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions
How about Zumaya -...
as in, Zumaya – all the injuries.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Proper equation
Since injuries are a negative (value < 0), we get:
Zumaya – injuries = Zumaya – (-value) = Zumaya + value
there we go
"The House That Ruth Built, 85 years old, goes out as The House That Hamilton Knocked Down"
Injuries aren't always negative for a team...
see Benson, Kris.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
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