Inside Corner Trade Deadline Roundtable Discussion
by Adam J. Morris on Jul 27, 2009 12:51 PM CDT
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PrintThere's a lengthy roundtable discussion up over at Inside Corner with Jamey, Evan, MJH, and Joey, regarding the Rangers and the trade deadline...
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Evan Grant: Jamey, I reported earlier in the week in the live blog, that I’ve been told Halladay would not reject a trade here.
Evan is reporting that Halladay would waive his NTC which conflicts with what TR stated earlier.
Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!
They think
that Tori Hunter is a jackass.
I’m a white boy who doesn’t think a black man is good enough to manage my baseball team. - LSJ
"I really think that" - LSJ, on being asked by AirJordan
I like Evan Grant, the reporter
but Evan Grant, the analyst, is seriously lacking.
I’m a white boy who doesn’t think a black man is good enough to manage my baseball team. - LSJ
"I really think that" - LSJ, on being asked by AirJordan
lol exactly what I was thinking.
Most of the stuff he was saying was just flat out stupid.
by behindthebag on Jul 27, 2009 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
I find myself once again glad that Nolan is here to serve as a buffer
I get the feeling that there would be a lot of pressure on Daniels to make a deal for the sake of making a deal (sending a message to the players, “doing whatever you can to improve”), and the expense of any deal where you don’t bear the salary load is more talent. If they make a deal, great, but it needs to be something that they’re convicted about and that doesn’t deter from the plan, rather than a response to internal and external pressure. I think that they bad deals that Daniels made early in his tenure were a result of internal pressure (in the case of the Young/Gonzalez) and trying to force something that just wasn’t there (pushing things up a year by going from Danks to the more polished McCarthy). Maybe he’s past that, but I’m not certain, given his comments, and I’m glad that Nolan is there to take that pressure away.
The only message that needs to be sent to the players is...
…“if you had hit better in July you would most likely be in first place.”
I have no objection to man walking on the moon.
You mean in June right?
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
They were bad in June...
…but I don’t see that they’ve been that much better in July.
I have no objection to man walking on the moon.
We are what 13-6 in July?
That would mean we would have to be almost undefeated in July to be in first place.
I don’t know what our record was in June but its alot easier to change that by a couple wins than Julys record
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
True but it seems like every time they drop a game in the standings...
…it’s been much more about a lack of offense than defense.
In retrospect I should have said in June and July.
Part of the reason that July is relevant despite the 13-6 record (which might be more like 16-3 if the run prevention was the same but the offense preformed at a 2008-level) is that it is probably unrealistic to think that any pitching acquisition is going to make enough of a difference to a team that hits as poorly as the Rangers have in July.
I have no objection to man walking on the moon.
When Nolan goes into the clubhouse on
Aud 1 and says “the right deal didn’t come along that we felt would help the club” the players will accept that and move on. I believe Nolan has much more credibility than JD,
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
Hall of Fame > Jonny Donuts
Alma para conquistarte, corazón para quererte, y vida para vivirla junto a ti.
definitely
But I think it is more that the message is coming from a former player. TAG would have more cred then JD when delivering that type of message.
Elvis Andrus - 2009 AL Rookie of the Year
Mitch Moreland - 2009 Rangers Minor League POY
Why do I feel
that this would probably find a way to turn out for us the way the Teixeira trade turned out for the Braves? The Royals suck so much. Could we not prospect-whip them in a Greinke trade with that same proposal he is offering and see if that worked instead?
Tried to.... Instead, the Royals just decided to build around Greinke and, I don't know who else, but let's say other young talent.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
Damn do I wish...
not only myself, but the Royals, would have done that deal you proposed for Greinke. That shit would look like gold right about now.
"The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance."-Socrates
Surely there's a better way they can do these chats
by LiamP on Jul 27, 2009 1:13 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
agreed. That was terrible.
"He will not coddle them. Nolan Ryan doesn’t coddle." - Jeff Passan
by Dirk Diggler on Jul 27, 2009 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Does EG honestly think that by acquiring Halladay
everything will be ok and we’re legit contenders? I mean does he leave the room every time the offense is up?
If you sell the farm (which is what he’s essentially advocating) to get Halladay, then how can he realistically be opposed to addressing this putrid offense on basis of “not giving too much of the farm away”? You already did Evan ffs.
And
where are you in 2011, when you would otherwise have a stacked team, talentwise? What do you do to plug the enormous hole left by Halladay at that point when you’ve given away your ammo just to get him?
by Brett Perryman on Jul 27, 2009 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Exactly
He’s basically advocating a “go for it all” mode for 2009/2010 and basically throwing away most of what the team has built over the past few years. Wasn’t the plan to be true contenders in 2010-2013 and beyond? Why cash that in for a run now when we don’t even have an assurance we’d even make the playoffs.
Halladay will most certainly be gone by 2011 and we’re left with a gaping hole in our rotation that would be tough to fill since we gave away the moon just to get him here in the first place.
by behindthebag on Jul 27, 2009 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I think there are other ways to fix this team that won't cost as much
as it will to acquire Halladay but that said, nobody has a freaking idea where this thing will be in 2010 / 2011.
This team, planned for or not, is in contention in an AL with no obvious juggernauts.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
" I don’t feel like arguing with laxtonto about it for the same reason I wouldn’t argue with him if he said the earth was flat. He’s a person who is happy with his head up his ass so why should I make him sad?"
Wow
I find Josey strangley right on this.
Off to take a shower.
What's very funny is that it is me
who is walking point when it comes to optimism for this team.
We’re still trying to outlast the incompetence of the manager and I have no faith in the GM making a move to help the big club but I’m on board.
"Dying ain't hard. It's living that's hard."
" I don’t feel like arguing with laxtonto about it for the same reason I wouldn’t argue with him if he said the earth was flat. He’s a person who is happy with his head up his ass so why should I make him sad?"
Well I have complete confidence in the GM
So there we completely disagree.
I think Grant offers too much but I’m willing to push the limits in terms of prospects for two reasons:
1. 1.5 years of a true ace
2. Prospects far too often top out far lower than the expectation around here.
However, I am concerned at Doc’s numbers in this park. He’s been terrible mostly. I really think the heat gets to him. I’ve seen him labor too many times against the Rangers with a look that screams “please get me out of this game.”
At what point..
Do all the successful steals, the successful bunts, and the above-average success rate of his bullpen moves put an end to this “incompetent” meme??
He has the team playing hard (which is the majority of the manager’s job), he has them playing great defense (which was your beef with him last year) , and has them in the hunt in spite of this offense.
Can’t you give the guy ANY credit for knowing what he’s doing? Just a shred?
The Texas Rangers have been synonymous with explosive firepower ever since they emptied 130 rounds into Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow in 1934. - Alyssa Milano
A manager has to 1) fill out a line up card 2) call plays on the base paths 3) manage the bullpen. Wash isn’t good at numbers 1 and 3.
Signature! I don't need no stinking signature!!
by DerekSTheRed on Jul 27, 2009 4:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah our bullpen has been so terrible this year
Bryan Smith (12:17:17 PM PT): Justin Smoak and Josh Hamilton. The AL West might just have found their Bash Brothers, v. 2.0.
The Rangers have great prospects...
I don’t think that absolutely means they will be great MLers. Smoak is probably the surest bet of all of the Rangers’ prospects. So, the fielders and DH could be almost completely filled from the farm, but the pitching is always a crap shoot. Come 2011, the Rangers may be back to their old style… Big boppers without much on the mound, although they probably will play better defense for at least the next few years.
I’m not advocating a get Halladay at all costs. I think Evan is willing to give up too much. I am much more comfortable giving up Holland/Perez (I actually don’t consider Perez an untouchable, in fact, though I think next year he could be) than Holland/Smoak. The Rangers can reload on left-handed pitching prospects fairly quickly, but there’s nothing in the system that compares to Smoak, and the prospects of drafting another Smoak is very, very unlikely.
Bottom line, I cannot see the Rangers justifying a package that has two of Feliz, Smoak, and Holland. I think the Rangers would have too much expense to fill the roles in 2009-2011 that these three could fill, even if they are only league average over that time period. From the perspective of the “four untouchables” line of reasoning, I’m ok with one of those three plus Perez. I guess that puts me in between Grant and Newberg.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
Forget the prospects
Focus on the major league roster. The players on it are going to be around for 4+ more years, and most of them should get better during that time.
Though I don’t know how you can just say, ignore the fact that Neftali Feliz and Justin Smoak are in AAA. Pretend that they will amount to nothing. These are top ten prospects in baseball, and they’re in AAA.
by Brett Perryman on Jul 27, 2009 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions
I have Smoak, Feliz, and Holland as contributors at a league-average level 2009-2011.
I don’t think you could plan for much more than that out of youngsters. However, that is why I have them in a different category than Perez, and why I can’t imagine the Rangers trading two of those three.
The Rangers already have league average players in many of their roles, so they primarily represent cost savings than performance upgrades for 2009-2010. We can’t count on anyone of our prospects being an Ace in 2009 or 2010, and it’s more likely that the Rangers won’t have a home-grown Ace in 2011 or 2012 than they will. Smoak is the best bet of that group of three (actually all of the prospects) to be an impact player (All Star maybe even) in 2011 or 2012.
So, the Rangers 2010-2012 could roll with Teagarden/Salty, MY, Andrus, Kinsler, CD in the infield Cruz, Hamilton, Borbon in the OF, and Smoak as the DH. On the bench could be Murphy and Boggs. Like I said above, that could be a stout offense and very good defense.
The pitching? Who knows. I don’t think it’s wise to bet an ace will emerge out of Holland/Feliz/Kiker/Poveda/Beavan/Kirkman/Hunter/Harrison/BMac/Hurley in the 2010-2012 period, though the Rangers probably have really good, stable and cheap options for numbers 3-5 in the rotation and bullpen roles with that group. Perez is likely to be only breaking into the big leagues by 2011, and his timing is a little late in regards to the window of time that Cruz/Hamilton/Kinsler are in the prime years of their careers and before FA decisions must be made on them.
That’s why I’d rather have Halladay now rather than Perez-and-one-of-the-big-three later.
Personally, I’ve been thinking that I might even take Smoak off the table completely. What he could bring to the Rangers in 2010-2012 could be very unique in the context of this organization. At this point, though, if JD made the trade tomorrow and Smoak was in the deal, I would support the move.
Wonderboy, what is the secret of your power? Wonderboy, won't you take me far away from the mucky-muck now. -- Tenacious D
I absolutely hate the "We have to block the Angels" mindset
First, it is silly. The Angels with Roy Halladay still will have a weak offense with even less of a farm system going forward.
Second, all you have to do to block LAA is to offer Feliz + Davis + Teagarden + Beavan. There is no way the Angels can beat that deal. Wood isn’t that much more valuable than Davis. Would the Jays really prefer and oft injured Santana or overrated Saunders to Feliz? Reckling vs Beavan may be a wash? Plus Teagarden?
Go Rice Owls!
That chat could've used more Matschulat.
Your 2009 Texas Rangers: "Can't take a fucking to save their lives" (lisa w, 2009).
of course
we’ll get more Joey Mat chats up and running before long;. He has no bigger fan than me, I assure you. Our problem is that he goes to bed at 3 am and I wake up then. But we’ll figure things out eventually.
Good to read.
But you probably also need to work with/on Evan and Jamey. It’d have been more interesting if the two of them hadn’t been so focused on each other… and since you were moderating…
Your 2009 Texas Rangers: "Can't take a fucking to save their lives" (lisa w, 2009).
I'm in the "NO" camp on the Halladay trad(or Lee).
Hopefully, Davisand/or Smoak will have figured it out, Kinsler and Hamilton will be unhappy enough with their seasons to re-wire their approach during the off-season and come back strong, MY will be better at 3rd in a second year there, Elvis will be stronger at the plate, and Salty will be able to focus his off-season work on the hitting side.
Try to sign Sheets to a fair contract for both sides, Millwood and Feldman behind him, fill in with Holland/Hunter/Feliz/McCarthy/Harrison/Nippert/Moscoso behind them.
Their is a lull before the next wave of potential TORG’s hit, so don’t give away the two that are close to ready. If anything, try to add a bat or two to bolster the lineup for this year and hopefully next.
Never argue with a fool. Onlookers might not be able to tell you apart.
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